Those wacky nonviolent pot smokers

[NeuroTypical]

It seems to be pretty much well accepted these days - MJ users are just too dang calm to get violent, commit crimes, etc. Someone should have told the guy who stole a car and then crashed it into the Happy Buddha Wellness Center. (No, I'm not making the name up.)

Gazette.com - Stolen vehicle rams marijuana dispensary

There are a ton of stories like these surrounding the MMJ dispensaries here in the smoky state of Colorado.

But just remember - if you say it enough times maybe it will become true: Legalizing MJ makes things better and lowers crime and creates happiness.

[PeterVenkman]

It seems to be pretty much well accepted these days - MJ users are just too dang calm to get violent, commit crimes, etc. Someone should have told the guy who stole a car and then crashed it into the Happy Buddha Wellness Center. (No, I'm not making the name up.)

Gazette.com - Stolen vehicle rams marijuana dispensary

There are a ton of stories like these surrounding the MMJ dispensaries here in the smoky state of Colorado.

But just remember - if you say it enough times maybe it will become true: Legalizing MJ makes things better and lowers crime and creates happiness.

Bad form Loudmouth Mormon...

First, the article does not draw a connection between smoking pot and committing violence at all. It's a 2 paragraph article that says a person stole a car and crashed it into a pot dispensary. There is no evidence the driver was high, and there was no evidence that anything was taken from the dispensary. This seems to imply that the driver was not intending to rob the dispensary and so the connection between the driver and marijuana is dubious.

Second, intentional or not, your post misrepresents the real political dimensions of marijuana stereotypes and law. You say everyone just accepts that pot smokers are calm and non-violent, which oversimplifies the issue. In truth, smoking marijuana does calm people and rarely leads to violence. However, that does not mean that there is no violence associated with the marijuana trade. The answer to the violence is legalization, not making fun of pot smokers.

Let me break it down for you simply. The reason why there is violence associated with marijuana is precisely because marijuana is illegal. See, in the US, we have this legal concept called "Property rights." I have property rights over the stuff that I own and I have legal remedies for protecting my property. For instance, if someone steals my computer, I can sue them in a court of law to get compensation. I don't have to resort to fighting the thief myself because I can use the legal system to recover my losses. Alcohol is legal, and therefore people have property rights over alcohol and may sue people that infringe on their rights.

Marijuana, on the other hand, is not legal, which means there are no property rights associated with possession of marijuana. If someone steals my marijuana, I cannot use the police, the legal system, or any other legal mechanism to protect my rights. Therefore, I have to have a gun or some other form of weapon to protect my stash. Legalizing marijuana provides property rights to users, and takes away the INCENTIVE for violence. Legalizing marijuana would cause such a sharp decrease in gun violence that it is enough of a justification on its own to legalize and tax. After all, there is a reason why you don't see armed militia's guarding Tecate trucks as they bring beer across the border...

Generally, pot smokers are a lot more caring and responsible than people who regularly use other drugs. The World Health Organization just released a study that classified the most dangerous drugs in the world. The WHO found that the two most dangerous substances on the face of the planet earth are (1) alcohol and (2) tobacco. And they are the only two legal substances in America!! Something is wrong with this picture.

[jerome1232]

Generally, pot smokers are a lot more caring and responsible than people who regularly use other drugs. The World Health Organization just released a study that classified the most dangerous drugs in the world. The WHO found that the two most dangerous substances on the face of the planet earth are (1) alcohol and (2) tobacco. And they are the only two legal substances in America!! Something is wrong with this picture.

You are aware of what happened the last time alcohol was prohibited? Your answer to stop the smuggling of illegal substances is make the smuggled item legal? What substance is next, cocaine? After that heroin? That sure is a slippery slope to walk, one with out a path back up imo.

[NeuroTypical]

First, the article does not draw a connection between smoking pot and committing violence at all.

That is correct. I drew the connection when I mentioned that there are a ton of stories just like this. They happen all the time - making the news at least several times a month just in Colorado Springs.

Let me break it down for you simply. The reason why there is violence associated with marijuana is precisely because marijuana is illegal.

I guess that was pretty simple, but also factually incorrect. Let me simply break down some truth for you: The Happy Buddha Wellness Center is a legal business that legally sells legal marijuana. The Happy Buddha Wellness Center has legal redress available to it, full access to police and the legal system, to protect its rights, because again, medicinal marijuana is legal in Colorado, and also in El Paso County, and also in the city of Colorado Springs, and also the area where the Happy Buddha Wellness Center operates was zoned to allow for such legal businesses.

Take a look at this link - it's a Google map of colorado with all the legal marijuana dispensaries listed on it. Legally registered, tax paying entities.

So I'm sorry Peter, but you'll have to do much, much better than that. I suspect your next move will be to fall back on the "no, that's not what I mean by legal" line of argumentation. Just be aware - you aparently weren't up on the fact that MMJ is legal in Colorado - you're going to have to do some pretty strong googling to try to win points about the realities on the ground here.

[PeterVenkman]

That is correct. I drew the connection when I mentioned that there are a ton of stories just like this. They happen all the time - making the news at least several times a month just in Colorado Springs.

I guess that was pretty simple, but also factually incorrect. Let me simply break down some truth for you: The Happy Buddha Wellness Center is a legal business that legally sells legal marijuana. The Happy Buddha Wellness Center has legal redress available to it, full access to police and the legal system, to protect its rights, because again, medicinal marijuana is legal in Colorado, and also in El Paso County, and also in the city of Colorado Springs, and also the area where the Happy Buddha Wellness Center operates was zoned to allow for such legal businesses.

Take a look at this link - it's a Google map of colorado with all the legal marijuana dispensaries listed on it. Legally registered, tax paying entities.

So I'm sorry Peter, but you'll have to do much, much better than that. I suspect your next move will be to fall back on the "no, that's not what I mean by legal" line of argumentation. Just be aware - you aparently weren't up on the fact that MMJ is legal in Colorado - you're going to have to do some pretty strong googling to try to win points about the realities on the ground here.

Whatever, ignore my actual argument, nothing new here...

Just because your state has legal MJ does not mean they get to bypass federal laws. I live in a state with medical marijuana and I regularly interact with people that operate the dispensaries. If you really knew so much about marijuana regulation in your state I doubt your original post would have been so flippant. There are no property rights over marijuana because that violates federal law. Maybe YOU are the one that should do some more research about the relationship between state and federal laws on marijuana possession before kicking up the condescension.

[bytor2112]

Generally, pot smokers are a lot more caring and responsible than people who regularly use other drugs.

Cool man......

[annewandering]

lol wow? The only pot smokers I know are lazy bums. Too much relaxing maybe?

[PeterVenkman]

lol wow? The only pot smokers I know are lazy bums. Too much relaxing maybe?

So true. If there is anything people should be put in jail for, it is CLEARLY being a lazy bum and/or relaxed.

[Guest]

lol wow? The only pot smokers I know are lazy bums. Too much relaxing maybe?

I know a lot of pot smokers who are upstanding, productive citizens otherwise.

Pot really is in the same level as tobacco. You don't hear anybody pulling out the slippery slope card on Marlboro.

[annewandering]

Tobacco isnt much like pot that I can see. I havent really considered tobacco to be mind altering. Is this what you mean? and no I really dont know.

[PeterVenkman]

Tobacco isnt much like pot that I can see. I havent really considered tobacco to be mind altering. Is this what you mean? and no I really dont know.

True, tobacco is not much like pot in the sense that tobacco kills you fast by destroying your lungs and throat. Marijuana does not do that (according to many studies).

It simply cannot be true that marijuana is illegal because it is mind altering. Caffeine and alcohol are mind altering and they are legal. Sugar is mind altering and it is legal. Fatty foods are mind altering and they are legal. Philosophical books and movies are mind altering and they are legal too.

Marijuana is illegal because of (1) racism and (2) paranoia. But mostly racism against latinos and blacks.

[volgadon]

Marijuana is illegal because of (1) racism and (2) paranoia. But mostly racism against latinos and blacks.

Baloney. Take for example Russia. Smoking marijuana is illegal, but the number of blacks and Latinos is utterly miniscule.

[Tyler90AZ]

Alcohol is far worse then marijuana.

The government could make money off marijuana if they would legalize it.

[PeterVenkman]

Baloney. Take for example Russia. Smoking marijuana is illegal, but the number of blacks and Latinos is utterly miniscule.

Except for the fact that the movement to criminalize marijuana started with individual states in the US starting in the 1860s and then spread to other countries...including, for example, Russia. Different countries use marijuana laws to disenfranchise different groups of people. Sometimes it is the poor that use marijuana, sometimes it is the immigrants...in virtually every case marijuana laws are directed at the dispossessed. See the second paragraph I have posted from the wikipedia page on legality of cannabis:

Under the name cannabis, 19th century medical practitioners sold the drug (usually as a tincture), popularizing the word amongst English-speakers. It was rumored that Queen Victoria's menstrual pains were treated with cannabis; her personal physician, Sir John Russell Reynolds, wrote an article in the first edition of the medical journal The Lancet about the benefits of cannabis.[3] In 1894, the Report of the Indian Hemp Drugs Commission commissioned by the UK Secretary of State and the government of India, was instrumental in the decision not to criminalize the drug in those countries.[4] From 1860 different states in the United States started to implement regulations for sales of Cannabis sativa.[5] In 1925 a change of the International Opium Convention[6] banned exportation of Indian hemp to countries that have prohibited its use. Importing countries were required to issue certificates approving the importation and stating that the shipment was to be used "exclusively for medical or scientific purposes".

In 1937 the F.D. Roosevelt administration crafted the 1937 Marihuana Tax Act, the first US national law making cannabis possession illegal via an unpayable tax on the drug.

The name marijuana (Mexican Spanish marihuana, mariguana) is associated almost exclusively with the plant's psychoactive use. The term is now well known in English largely due to the efforts of American drug prohibitionists during the 1920s and 1930s. Mexico itself had passed prohibition in 1925, following the International Opium Convention.[7] The prohibitionists deliberately used a Mexican name for cannabis in order to turn the US populace against the idea that it should be legal by playing to negative attitudes towards that nationality. (See 1937 Marihuana Tax Act). Those who demonized the drug by calling it marihuana omitted the fact that the "deadly marihuana" was identical to Cannabis sativa, which had at the time a reputation for pharmaceutical safety.[8] However, due to variations in the potency of the preparations, Cannabis indica in the 1930s had lost most of its former popularity as a medical drug

[NeuroTypical]

Whatever, ignore my actual argument, nothing new here...

Just because your state has legal MJ does not mean they get to bypass federal laws.

Now those two statements are a bit odd to see right next to each other. Because when I go back and look at your actual argument, you didn't say anything about federal laws. Instead, you made the claim "Marijuana, on the other hand, is not legal, which means there are no property rights associated with possession of marijuana. If someone steals my marijuana, I cannot use the police, the legal system, or any other legal mechanism to protect my rights."

No really - the police here in my neck of the woods, respond to the (numerous and common) calls for assistance from dispensary owners. I see details on the police blotter all the time. The police record ID for the story I linked to, is 16518. You can call Lt. Anderson of the Colorado Springs Police, Sand Creek division, at 719-444-7270 if you don't believe me. Real police, responding to real reports from real leagal business entities. Exactly what you said does not happen in your first post. Before you moved the goal post to the federal arena in your second post.

From where I'm standing, flippancy and condescention isn't that outlandish a response to folks who so easily claim things that are so, ain't so. You say MJ isn't legal, I show you a map with all the tax paying legal dispensaries in Colorado. You say folks can't use the police to protect property rights, I'm giving you the record ID and media contact of the police officer who will tell you otherwise.

Yes indeed, MJ law is currently an ever-shifting mish-mash of federal, state, county, city, and local laws. Money is spent, made, lost, based on understandings of what laws apply, what laws aren't being enforced, etc. But no really - I can't see where someone can expect to be taken seriously when they claim they know what's going on, and that legalizing MJ would result in a "sharp decrease in gun violence".

What state do you live in Peter? It's possible your state works differently than CO - that's the only thing I can think of to explain why your experience is so different than mine.

[log2]

Yeah! Let's get a little "

" up in here, yo!

Is it proper to enforce our morals upon others by the edge of the sword?

[Guest]

Is it proper to enforce our morals upon others by the edge of the sword?

Yes. "Your freedom ends where my nose begins". That's straight up from my 3rd grade teacher...

[log2]

Yes. "Your freedom ends where my nose begins". That's straight up from my 3rd grade teacher...

So, if I smell bad, you can kill me?

Or, more seriously - how does anyone's smoking pot generate a claim to self-defense on your part, whereby you can legitimize utilizing deadly force to stop them from so doing?

[Guest]

So, if I smell bad, you can kill me?

Or, more seriously - how does anyone's smoking pot generate a claim to self-defense on your part, whereby you can legitimize utilizing deadly force to stop them from so doing?

No, if you smell bad, I can go up to Congress and work on crafting a bill that will prevent you from smelling bad around me. If enough people agree with me, it can get voted into law. This is a country ruled by law... not ruled by any man's desire to kill you.

Just to be clear... I'm not against smoking pot just as much as I'm not against smoking tobacco. I am against smoking pot/tobacco in a public place where I have to suffer through inhaling the stuff while I'm enjoying a nice stroll at a public beach or whatever.

Now, what I am against is the effects of Tobacco/Pot on productivity. Tobacco/Pot addles the brain. There's no denying that science. If it becomes such that your pot smoking causes you to be unproductive so that I have to pay your portion of the tax burden, then I might feel inclined to do something about it.

And on that same token, smoking Tobacco/Pot is a health risk. There's no denying that science either. If it becomes such that your pot smoking causes my health insurance/medicare expenses to rise, then I might also feel inclined to do something about it.

Other than that, live on, brother.

Edited May 9, 2012 by anatess

[log2]

No, if you smell bad, I can go up to Congress and work on crafting a bill that will prevent you from smelling bad around me. If enough people agree with me, it can get voted into law.

The fact that people CAN point guns - either themselves, or by proxy - to force others to do as they say does not have any bearing on whether they are JUSTIFIED in so doing.

If it becomes such that your pot smoking causes you to be unproductive so that I have to pay your portion of the tax burden, then I might feel inclined to do something about it.

That's a problem with government, not a problem with pot. I would argue that a great many, if not all, of the laws which impose those tax burdens are themselves unjustified.

And on that same token, smoking Tobacco/Pot is a health risk. There's no denying that science either. If it becomes such that your pot smoking causes my health insurance/medicare expenses to rise, then I might also feel inclined to do something about it.

And that's a problem with socialism, not pot smoking.

[mirkwood]

It seems to be pretty much well accepted these days - MJ users are just too dang calm to get violent, commit crimes, etc.

*snort*

[Guest]

The fact that people CAN point guns - either themselves, or by proxy - to force others to do as they say does not have any bearing on whether they are JUSTIFIED in so doing.

Ah log2... still living in your own dream world, I see.

If you still haven't figured it out by now, American democracy doesn't mean that I have the freedom to point a gun at YOU by myself or by proxy militia. In a society of 5 wolves and a sheep, Democracy is great... unless you're the sheep. Thank goodness, American democracy is not ruled by the democratic majority. It is ruled by LAW. Justified means - it is by LAW. So, if you think your pot smoking should be legal, by all means justify your position, get yourself a mandate and change the law!

Fact of the matter is - freedom to pursue happiness is not a free-pass at anything goes. The number of basement-meth-heads who think "we're not hurting anybody" wiping out productivity in an entire county in Missouri is a testament to the detriment of that mentality.

That's a problem with government, not a problem with pot. I would argue that a great many, if not all, of the laws which impose those tax burdens are themselves unjustified.

Wrong. You don't live in isolation. Your individual productivity dictates how useful you are to society, regardless of how government implements taxation. The more useful you are, the more benefit the society derives from your labor. We need more contributors and less dead weight. Now, if we can just vote you off the island, then there's no issue at hand.

And that's a problem with socialism, not pot smoking.

Incorrect. Health insurance is NOT socialism. Health insurance is capitalizing on statistical advantage. Your pot smoking changes that statistical picture when we have a finite healthcare resource. More demand for health services, higher price for health services. Capitalism in action.

[slamjet]

Seriously though, I heard Giraldo Rivera say that if it was the 60's then he wouldn't have an issue with pot smoking. But the potency has increased dramatically, so for this day and age, it would be disastrous.