Useless Body Parts

[Timpman]

annewandering, I appreciate your input. However, I don't think that really explains it. Embryos are one thing, but we as adults still have a tailbone and plantaris muscles. I guess my testimony is okay, though.

[Timpman]

JM, thanks for your input as well. I shouldn't worry about all this.

[JudoMinja]

JM, thanks for your input as well. I shouldn't worry about all this.

It's okay to go digging for what answers you can find and come up with your own speculations for how it all goes together. I quite enjoy doing that myself. :) Just don't let it shake your faith when you can't make sense of things on your own or can't find all the answers.

[rameumptom]

It may be evolution. It may be that God created a method of reusable parts. It could be both or neither.

Since no one on earth knows everything regarding science or of religion 100%, much of it is left to speculation and faith. Doesn't shake my faith at all, because such things have nothing to do with the spiritual witness I've received of God.

[annewandering]

The truth of the matter is that God used a basic template for life. Much of DNA is similar in all living things. Certainly in 'higher' life forms.

Kinda like a cake. Sugar, flour, oil, salt, leavening are common to many recipes but to make mom's german chocolate cake is a lot different than making bagels.

[Wingnut]

O, my.. What are Relief Society arms!? O_o

That's when you're leading a hymn in church, and even when the song stops, your upper arm doesn't.

Also sometimes referred to as an "afterwave."

[livy111us]

Here are a few quotes that you may find helpful.

“What the Church requires is only belief that Adam was the first man of what we would call the human race.” (Gordon B. Hinckley, Deseret Morning News March 1st 2006)

In a 1992 section on evolution in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism, the church-sanctioned entry reads that: "The scriptures tell why man was created, but they do not tell how, though the Lord has promised that he will tell that when he comes again." It ended with a reiteration that "Adam is the primal parent of our race.

A] Whether the mortal bodies of man evolved in natural processes to present perfection, through the direction and power of God; whether the first parents of our generations, Adam and Eve, were transplanted from another sphere, with immortal tabernacles, which became corrupted through sin and the partaking of natural foods, in the process of time; [C] whether they were born here in mortality, as other mortals have been, are questions not fully answered in the revealed word of God. - "Priesthood Quorums’ Table," Improvement Era 13 no. 4 (April 1910): 570. [Joseph F. Smith as president of the Church and Edward H. Anderson were editors of the magazine at the time. The editorial was unsigned.]

“Perhaps if we had the full story of the creation of the earth and man told to us in great detail, it would be more of a mystery than the simple few statements that we have contained in the Bible, because of our lack of ability to comprehend. Therefore, for reasons best known to the Lord, He has kept us in darkness. Wait until the Lord speaks, or wait until that day when He shall come. . . . Then we shall know all things pertaining to this earth, how it was made, and all things that now as children we are groping for and trying to understand. Let's reserve judgment as to the facts concerning the Creation until we know these things for sure.” The Teachings of Harold B. Lee: Eleventh President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, ed. Clyde J. Williams (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1998), 29, citing "Story of the Creation," BYU Summer School Lecture, 22 June 1954.

and a few articles you may be interested in:

http://emp.byui.edu/claytonr/FAQ.pdf

Science and Religion

LDS Science Quotes

No definitive LDS stance on evolution, study finds | Deseret News

http://sites.google.com/a/transfigurism.org/transfigurism-wiki/Home/quotes-1/mormon-quotes-on-science-and-technology

BYU Museum of Paleontology - Paleontological Research

[HiJolly]

Help! I have shaken faith syndrome. Why do human embryos have tails and adults have a coccyx? Is it "the remnant of a lost tail" because we evolved from monkeys?

Human vestigiality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And what about the plantaris muscle? "Often mistaken for a nerve by freshman medical students, the muscle was useful to other primates for grasping with their feet. It has disappeared altogether in 9 percent of the population."

https://notes.utk.edu/Bio/greenberg.nsf/0/0765bb50d404455385256f0000680854?OpenDocument&Click=

I am serious.

Timpman, I was a teenager in the 70's and listened to General Conference talks by the dozen about how organic evolution was a deception by the Devil to make me lose faith in the atonement and religion in general.

I heard it at Seminary and in the Church magazines as well.

About 10 years later I discovered for myself the legitimacy of the science behind Organic evolution. So I spent another 10 years or so talking on a daily basis with various LDS scientists, about half of which either taught at the University level, or worked with the science of biology in the lab at various commercial enterprises.

And now I am convinced not only spiritually, but also by the science of it -- that organic evolution is the *real deal*. I have no more doubt on any front. But it took a long time because I was raised by parents that agreed with Bruce R. McConkie, Mark E. Peterson, Harold B. Lee, Joseph Fielding Smith(JFS), Boyd K. Packer and a load of other GAs in demonizing the science behind evolution.

It was difficult, but I found the truth. Luckily, the Brethren have stopped talking about it, but we still unfortunately find the Church Magazines and the CES people speaking as though they hadn't got the memo. So sad. Very few people know why JFS was so vocally vehement about the Atonement conflicting with evolution. Clue: It didn't come from God. It came from George McCready Price.

All this did cause me to question my blind devotion to all things LDS. And it has been a good and beneficial process for my faith to move from a fundamentalist POV to a more mature and informed faith. Despite the anguish.

HiJolly

[Timpman]

HiJolly, can you you briefly tell me how you reconciled it? Did God insert Adam and Eve at the right point in the process of evolution?

[Timpman]

Here are a few quotes that you may find helpful......

Very good stuff. Thanks. I really like those quotes and will check out the links when I have time.

[HiJolly]

HiJolly, can you you briefly tell me how you reconciled it? Did God insert Adam and Eve at the right point in the process of evolution?

Sure. Adam & Eve are place markers. They are labels attached to our biological and spiritual predecessors who at some point (definitely longer than 6,000 years ago) became capable of self-conscious thought and thus gained a brain that could deal with life both consciously and sub-consciously.

This allowed introspection, which allowed us to spiritually be able to interact consciously and subconsciously with God. The psychology of it all was critical.

When Brother Brigham talks about Adam & Eve coming from another world to this earth, he's speaking of a change of spiritual/physical essence. In that context, this earth is Malkhut (hebrew). There is much, much more to it, of course. Most of what we see in scripture is symbolic. And true. Just not literal.

HiJolly

[Windseeker]

Darwin believed in God.

From wiki - In the Origin of Species he repeatedly refers to a Creator in a positive and supportive context as impressing laws on matter.

nuff said...next

[HiJolly]

Darwin believed in God.

From wiki - In the Origin of Species he repeatedly refers to a Creator in a positive and supportive context as impressing laws on matter.

nuff said...next

Yep. I read Origin of Species and had a spiritual experience in the process. All the misinformation ceased to bother me, once God weighed in on the question.

HiJolly

Edited May 16, 2012 by HiJolly
:-)

[NeuroTypical]

I think a lot of us have struggled with the great debate over evolution vs creation. It is certain that church leaders have expressed all sorts of strong opinions on the matter, and many of these opinions fall way short of "thus saith the Lord" revealation.

Actually, CS Lewis helped resolve this for me in his Narnia books. There were the regular normal critters, and then there were the critters that Aslan had breathed on, who could talk, and posessed souls.

The last book contained a very touching take on the final judgement. Every talking animal approached Aslan and looked him in the eyes. Those who had accepted him turned to the path leading to the Narnian heaven where Aslan lived. Those who rejected or hated him had a momentary reaction of anger or fear, then they turned back into regular critters as their 'light' left them. They took the other path leading to wherever the regular critters go when they die.

[Timpman]

Hmmmm, what about Adam and Eve being real, historical people‽

[annewandering]

If God can do just about anything I see no reason He can not put Adam and Eve in a garden protected from the cold cruel world around that garden. Isnt that what happened? After the downfall they were booted out of the garden to where? Apparently it was to the world we know. Not necessarily to a new planet but outside the protection of the garden they had lived in before. What was in the world they moved into? Well there were lots of trials. I picture a world of cactus and thorns. Not saying those were literally the plants there but they were not mana for sure.

[Windseeker]

Hmmmm, what about Adam and Eve being real, historical people‽

Maybe check out mitochondrial Eve.

In 1987, a team at the University of California at Berkeley published a study comparing the mtDNA of 147 people from five of the world’s geographic locations.2 They concluded that all 147 had the same female ancestor. She is now called “the mitochondrial Eve.”

They say she existed only around 6,500 years ago. Looks interesting.

[HiJolly]

Hmmmm, what about Adam and Eve being real, historical people‽

Yeah. Nothing is easy, when dealing with juxtapositioning mortal truth with spiritual truth. Gould did a pretty good job of reconciliation with his NOMA idea: Non-overlapping magisteria - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I agree with what is said in the temple. Adam and Eve are figurative. Once you decide that, lots of perspectives on other things have to change as well. Don't do it unless you really, really know what you're doing, is my advice. And know this -- I know the Church is true. True like an arrow is true. Straight. Functional. But not how most of us think of it, as we learned in Primary.

Personal Beliefs » LDS Social Network

HiJolly

[Timpman]

Adam and Eve are figurative.

I can't digest that right now. I'm going back to Primary.

[annewandering]

Maybe check out mitochondrial Eve.

They say she existed only around 6,500 years ago. Looks interesting.

I thought this was pretty interesting too. Interesting about the dates. Gee could it really have been that a bit over 6000 years ago man was put here, Adam and Eve. Who knows about before. Who cares about before since it wasnt Adam and Eve?

[skalenfehl]

I don't personally believe the temple ceremonies are intended to be taken literally.

The endowment is a type and a shadow of things to come, but only for those who are true and faithful who are to receive a crown of glory (Doctrine & Covenants). You cannot part the veil and converse with the Lord if you are not clothed in righteousness. Read the Book of Mormon, D&C, Lectures on Faith, Teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith, etc. Study receiving your calling and election and the Second Comforter. Start with the New Testament.

Edit: There are some wild and crazy replies on here. Has no one been to the temple? Adam and Eve figurative, etc??

Edited May 17, 2012 by skalenfehl

[Tyler90AZ]

I know I could never let science be my God. Science is always changing.... What is believed today will change tomorrow. On the other hand, the God we worship, is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

[Wingnut]

The endowment is a type and a shadow of things to come, but only for those who are true and faithful who are to receive a crown of glory (Doctrine & Covenants). You cannot part the veil and converse with the Lord if you are not clothed in righteousness. Read the Book of Mormon, D&C, Lectures on Faith, Teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith, etc. Study receiving your calling and election and the Second Comforter. Start with the New Testament.

I'm not really sure what this has to do with what I said.

[Dravin]

I'm not really sure what this has to do with what I said.

I think he's trying to call you out.

Edited May 17, 2012 by Dravin

[Wingnut]

I think he's trying to call you out.

That's what I think, too, but I don't really see how it relates very well to what I said. Especially considering his edit. It's just not very clear to me. I also think it's preposterous to say that because I think something is more symbolic than taking it at face value, that I'm not "clothed in righteousness."