Dinosaurs

[wisdom]

Something to think about. Joseph Smith said that the earth was formed from other broken up planets. Matter unorganized. Another thought I have had is that Adam may have been in the Garden of Eden for a long time before partaking of the fruit that made him mortal and started time as we know it. Also scientific theory is just that. Theory. For instance the Leaky's say modern man originated in the Odivai Gorge in Africa because they found the remains of Lucy, a according to them "missing Link". But there is in England plenty of evidence of modern man that dates to the same time period. They ignore that because it doesn't fit in with ther excepted ideas. Really I dont think anyone knows and the Lord hasn't revealed a difinitive answer. That doesent mean we shouldn't interest ourselve in such questions. Keep an open mind

[circusboy01]

Has anybody checked out Shawn's Post on Dinosaurs over at Genera Discussion. I think he raises some good questions. Brother Ray

[TheMusicTheory]

Something to think about. Joseph Smith said that the earth was formed from other broken up planets. Matter unorganized. Another thought I have had is that Adam may have been in the Garden of Eden for a long time before partaking of the fruit that made him mortal and started time as we know it. Also scientific theory is just that. Theory. For instance the Leaky's say modern man originated in the Odivai Gorge in Africa because they found the remains of Lucy, a according to them "missing Link". But there is in England plenty of evidence of modern man that dates to the same time period. They ignore that because it doesn't fit in with ther excepted ideas. Really I dont think anyone knows and the Lord hasn't revealed a difinitive answer. That doesent mean we shouldn't interest ourselve in such questions. Keep an open mind

I think there is some confusion here about what the word "Theory" actually means in a scientific context.

Gravity is also a "Theory". Relativity is a "Theory". Scientific Theories codify facts, they are a collection of facts given a name. The word I think you were looking for is Hypothesis.

As for evidence of modern man in England, do you have links to any research in that area?

[wisdom]

Forbidden Archeology by Michael Cremo. Interesting read.

[TheMusicTheory]

I am quite familiar with Michael Cremo's particular brand of pseudoscience. He is, of course, not a scientist himself (nor is his associate, Thompson) but a Hindu Creationist Author. A writer.

I have read his book, but I will leave the rebuttal to those far more qualified than I:

Review: Forbidden Archaeology's Impact | NCSE

Forbidden Archaeology: Antievolutionism Outside the Christian Arena

Cremo is well-known in the scientific community for vast leaps of logic based on sketchy-at-best and sometimes completely false premises, and he does not suffer criticism well. Indeed, the entire book was written as a sort of "Oh yeah?? Well boo on you!" to his critics.

I will concur that the read was interesting...but I think we may have found it interesting for different reasons.

[Traveler]

I am quite familiar with Michael Cremo's particular brand of pseudoscience. He is, of course, not a scientist himself (nor is his associate, Thompson) but a Hindu Creationist Author. A writer.

I have read his book, but I will leave the rebuttal to those far more qualified than I:

Review: Forbidden Archaeology's Impact | NCSE

Forbidden Archaeology: Antievolutionism Outside the Christian Arena

Cremo is well-known in the scientific community for vast leaps of logic based on sketchy-at-best and sometimes completely false premises, and he does not suffer criticism well. Indeed, the entire book was written as a sort of "Oh yeah?? Well boo on you!" to his critics.

I will concur that the read was interesting...but I think we may have found it interesting for different reasons.

As a student of history and society - it would seem that regardless how foolish and irrational a notion it is likely that someone has believed it passionately enough to somehow find some justification of it - especially if religion or politics can somehow be connected to it.

I am inclined to wonder if we do not live in a era of mankind's greatest gullibility despite a unparalleled access to data and information.

The Traveler

[LinuxGal]

Gravity is also a "Theory". Relativity is a "Theory". Scientific Theories codify facts, they are a collection of facts given a name. The word I think you were looking for is Hypothesis.

Even a hypothesis is a tentative theory. Newton's "law" of gravitation is a useful theory, very useful indeed, we used it to land a spacecraft on Titan and get pictures from the surface. But it was revised and extended by Einstein's theory of general relativity, covering extremes of gravity and velocity, which has been demonstrated to be accurate to many decimal places. It is an example of a superb theory. Plate tectonics and the modern synthesis of descent with variation are also superb theories. A theory is simply a model which organizes facts, like you said, in such a way that one may predict future observations. But the simple-minded will often toss the word out as a pejorative, saying something is "only a theory". Well, there isn't anything else.

[Arnolt]

Even a hypothesis is a tentative theory. Newton's "law" of gravitation is a useful theory, very useful indeed, we used it to land a spacecraft on Titan and get pictures from the surface. But it was revised and extended by Einstein's theory of general relativity, covering extremes of gravity and velocity, which has been demonstrated to be accurate to many decimal places. It is an example of a superb theory. Plate tectonics and the modern synthesis of descent with variation are also superb theories. A theory is simply a model which organizes facts, like you said, in such a way that one may predict future observations. But the simple-minded will often toss the word out as a pejorative, saying something is "only a theory". Well, there isn't anything else.

Take it easy, God the Allmighty... as we are non-perfect and only get a glimpse of his mighty power, we only can stay in awareness.

Edited June 19, 2012 by Arnolt

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[Seminarysnoozer]

Horizontal gene transfer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

but then I'm not sure what % of us is transformed by God, and which is not... the natural man, vs. one who is reborn? It is interesting to think about though.

We also do not have any direct knowledge of how much of a percentage change there was from what God actually created in the garden to what the fall did to our bodies as they are now, even if He did take existing material to form life in the Garden. I would say that that change was dramatically different, between an immortal and a mortal body.

[circusboy01]

yes, the age of misinformation - funny some think that for the first time in all of history, we finally have it all figured out

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

one more add-on about evolution.

I think Mormons have a unique view about what the word "create" actually means:

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 93:29)

29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

We do not believe in ex-Nihlo creationism, we believe that there is a part of us that is not created by God, that He is cleaning up a mess He did not make.. so I don't think there is any problems with intelligently directed evolution, and by ID evolution I mean things like this:

Horizontal gene transfer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

but then I'm not sure what % of us is transformed by God, and which is not... the natural man, vs. one who is reborn? It is interesting to think about though.

Okay I realize I'm a lot dummer than you. So you're going to have to talk down to me.

"we believe that there is a part of us that is not created by God." What we are you talking about? Mormons? As far as what I have learned in Sunday School, and Priesthood, and what I've read in scriptures. I was created completely by God. Are you saying He hired out some of my parts to a sub contractor? Brother Ray

[Vort]

Okay I realize I'm a lot dummer than you. So you're going to have to talk down to me.

"we believe that there is a part of us that is not created by God." What we are you talking about? Mormons? As far as what I have learned in Sunday School, and Priesthood, and what I've read in scriptures. I was created completely by God. Are you saying He hired out some of my parts to a sub contractor? Brother Ray

We are eternal intelligences. We have always existed. In that way, we are co-equal with God. God did not create our intelligence.

[circusboy01]

We are eternal intelligences. We have always existed. In that way, we are co-equal with God. God did not create our intelligence.

Oh yes. He even started out as an intelligence Himself. But. He was a more intelligent intelligence.

[MarginOfError]

Oh yes. He even started out as an intelligence Himself. But. He was a more intelligent intelligence.

I don't think there's any justification for that conclusion, nor do I believe that is necessarily true.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Okay I realize I'm a lot dummer than you. So you're going to have to talk down to me.

"we believe that there is a part of us that is not created by God." What we are you talking about? Mormons? As far as what I have learned in Sunday School, and Priesthood, and what I've read in scriptures. I was created completely by God. Are you saying He hired out some of my parts to a sub contractor? Brother Ray

My Sunday School class and scripture study suggest that God created Adam and Eve (if we are just talking about the physical creation, spiritual is different). Our physical creation came about as a result of the Fall. The fact that God did not create us physically, the Fall did is one of the basic principles of our gospel, it is the set up for the need for a Savior.

[circusboy01]

My Sunday School class and scripture study suggest that God created Adam and Eve (if we are just talking about the physical creation, spiritual is different). Our physical creation came about as a result of the Fall. The fact that God did not create us physically, the Fall did is one of the basic principles of our gospel, it is the set up for the need for a Savior.

I never thought of it that way. But we were His spirit children, before we came to earth. Not His creations. Brother Ray

[Seminarysnoozer]

I never thought of it that way. But we were His spirit children, before we came to earth. Not His creations. Brother Ray

That is just if you are talking about the spirit alone. David O. McKay explains that we are both body and spirit right now. When most people talk about God creating us, they are talking about our current condition, mortality, which is the corrupted body (child of the fallen Adam and Eve) combined with a child of God spirit.

[Traveler]

My Sunday School class and scripture study suggest that God created Adam and Eve (if we are just talking about the physical creation, spiritual is different). Our physical creation came about as a result of the Fall. The fact that God did not create us physically, the Fall did is one of the basic principles of our gospel, it is the set up for the need for a Savior.

Where in scripture did you come up with the notion that G-d did not create us physically? That the physical creation happened because of the fall? Also - is life created (physically) today using the same methods as is explained in Genesis?

The Traveler

[annewandering]

If Jesus was God's only begotten Son then how were Adam and Eve's bodies created?

[Seminarysnoozer]

Where in scripture did you come up with the notion that G-d did not create us physically? That the physical creation happened because of the fall? Also - is life created (physically) today using the same methods as is explained in Genesis?

The Traveler

I am not sure why you have such a hard time reading all the words, I said "as a result of". And why you have such a hard time following the line of conversation, we were only talking about individuals, not all of the physical creation. This part of the conversation started with Circusboy01 saying "I was created completely by God." Of which, I am challenging the word "completely" by suggesting that our current composition was altered by the Fall. If that is true then the statement that God created us completely, as we are right now, could not be right.

God created perfect, immortal bodies for Adam and Eve. The corruption, the limited life span, the process of genetic mutation and disease and all the other things that would make a body "fallen" are as a result of the fall. Did God allow the Fall to happen and make it possible? Sure. But that is not the same as "creating" it.

As to your second question, we do not know that, mostly because what is described in Genesis is highly metaphoric. Even Kimball said that a rib wasn't literally taken from Adam. I guess for me to even take a stab at what I think is a rhetorical question, you would first have to explain what that method was.

[HEthePrimate]

I don't see a problem. My father is a scientist, and also a good faithful Mormon. He never felt the need to offer extravagant explanations for the existence of dinosaurs, and we never really saw a conflict with the gospel. But then, we are not strict literalists. My family figures God created the world, but we don't necessarily know how he did or, or how long it took.

[Seminarysnoozer]

If Jesus was God's only begotten Son then how were Adam and Eve's bodies created?

In some ways that is comparing apples to oranges as Jesus is the only begotten in the flesh whereas Adam and Eve were not created in flesh (flesh and blood flesh, at least). They were created immortal and paradisaical. My guess would be that their bodies were created the same way that God will make our perfect non-blood, non-flesh bodies with the resurrection.

As Jesus, in part, demonstrated with Lazarus reconstructing an adult human brain from scratch (as a brain without oxygen etc. for four days is simply mush, connections are lost and cannot grow back on their own, they would have to be re-made) that did not have to develop in the womb as it normally does by about the 8th week of gestation is well within God's power. Jesus also demonstrated many times over that through the power of God body parts can be made whole where there was nothing before. There were many examples of making body parts not just repairing them. When Jesus made the man blind from birth he put mud on his eyes and made him whole. He also fixed the ear cut off from one of the guards. These things were done as explained, to show God's power. If we believe in these stories then we should believe it is well within God's power to make a body out of "mud".

[annewandering]

In some ways that is comparing apples to oranges as Jesus is the only begotten in the flesh whereas Adam and Eve were not created in flesh (flesh and blood flesh, at least). They were created immortal and paradisaical. My guess would be that their bodies were created the same way that God will make our perfect non-blood, non-flesh bodies with the resurrection.

As Jesus, in part, demonstrated with Lazarus reconstructing an adult human brain from scratch (as a brain without oxygen etc. for four days is simply mush, connections are lost and cannot grow back on their own, they would have to be re-made) that did not have to develop in the womb as it normally does by about the 8th week of gestation is well within God's power. Jesus also demonstrated many times over that through the power of God body parts can be made whole where there was nothing before. There were many examples of making body parts not just repairing them. When Jesus made the man blind from birth he put mud on his eyes and made him whole. He also fixed the ear cut off from one of the guards. These things were done as explained, to show God's power. If we believe in these stories then we should believe it is well within God's power to make a body out of "mud".

Excellent points!

[Arnolt]

The church, to my knowledge, doesn't have any official teaching on how old the earth is.

This might be true. But I can hardly except that a progressive church that claims prophets to bring truth and divine words to men can ignore the facts that science has brought to us. The prophets of this one church have to bring recent knowledge and new sights resulting from science and research into a new and for the believers understandable seeing. Otherwise they would allow the same mistakes becoming happen as in the past before the LDS was founded. They would be of non use, because they only would keep things in the old manner but ignoring any divine news. This is the church of the living gospel and the church of living prophets and the church of everlasting truth. And not the church of stagnation and ignorance and inanity.

à la votre, Jenamarie!

Edited June 25, 2012 by Arnolt

[Vort]

This might be true. But I can hardly except that a progressive church that claims prophets to bring truth and divine words to men can ignore the facts that science has brought to us.

Why not? The Church is about leading men and women to God and spiritual salvation, not explaining physical observations and propounding scientific hypotheses.