Same Yesterday, Today And Forever?

[Dr T]

Blessed said,

What about the verse God is an unchanging God. Same yesterday, today and forever?

That is interesting. Do you think that "yesterday" is something that represents and eternity past or just the day before? I thought it meant always the same. Yesterday (days preceding ad infinitum), today and forever into the future. I was thinking about that I tried to put myself into LDS shoes. It seems that LDS would have to conclude that God was NOT always the same (in his godly attributes) for all eternity past and future because he was not always god. Is my conclusion correct?

Thanks,

Dr. T

[Traveler]

Blessed said,

What about the verse God is an unchanging God. Same yesterday, today and forever?

That is interesting. Do you think that "yesterday" is something that represents and eternity past or just the day before? I thought it meant always the same. Yesterday (days preceding ad infinitum), today and forever into the future. I was thinking about that I tried to put myself into LDS shoes. It seems that LDS would have to conclude that God was NOT always the same (in his godly attributes) for all eternity past and future because he was not always god. Is my conclusion correct?

Thanks,

Dr. T

I have often wondered how this is to be understood. Jesus has gone through birth and death - that would indicate change. There is a scripture in the D&C that talks about man having agency in order that "That which was from the beginning is plainly made manifest."

I am inclined to understand that G-dleyness is unchanging and that perhaps this has more to do with defining what makes up a righteous "G-d". In other words - changing is not the kind of thing any real G-d or the good and righteous type is going to be doing once the station or title of G-d is granted.

The other question is - is it possible that anyone can change who and what they are?

The Traveler

[Dr T]

Thanks Traveler,

So you would say that "godliness" would be the thing that is consistent? Even godliness however would not have been godly for eternity past though if there was ever a time that he was not a god. I agree with you, from what I read, Jesus did change. The theory of the incarnation, Jesus becoming flesh, and changing humanly, is clear. He grew in statue and wisdom, he was a child and into adulthood. "In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God." "The word became flesh and dwelt among us" meaning that Jesus existed eternally as God is an interesting concept for this discussion. Anyone else have any ideas on this?

THank you

[Blessed]

I have always believed that CHrist existed eternally as God and to throw one more in... I believe we all DID. I believe that we were spirits with God in the beginning and that with Him we chose the existance we now have. Where it gets sticky is the hereafter because "will" comes into play... if that makes any sense.

[Dr T]

CHrist existed eternally as God and to throw one more in... I believe we all DID.

Respectufully Blessed, that does not make sense. Are you saying that we were eternally god like Jesus yet we are not now?

Thanks

[Princess3dward]

I normally make no sense (to others, I really know what I am trying to say)... but to put it as simply as possible, without confusing EVERYONE...

God composed us of already existing particles.

We always existed..

He just put us together better.

[sunny_surfer]

The way i see it, that perticular phrase has more to do with the celestial laws and order of not only God but also of the priesthood and the responsibilities that come along with it. For example The lord would never contradict himself or change the order in which the gospel must be preached and distributed. It also has to do with the consept that The lord jesus christ was the same entaty or the same spirit during the beginning and will be during the end. It is a way of knowing that it was Jesus Christ who created the earth, it was he who suffered and died for our sins and it was he who was resurected and was glorified. Now if your going to argue that he wasnt the same due to the fact that he experienced mortality and died, that was a stage that he needed to do, not for himself but because 1) It was the fathers plan and Jesus was doing the very thing that was commanded to him by the father and 2) because with out jesus christ comming to the earth there would have been no atonement in which none of us would be able to return to the father because we would be forever doomed under the penalty of sin. I phrase the same yesterday today and forever is to know that Jesus christ will never lead or change his word or thinking on matters, it to know that he is Our saviour and he will never change so that confustion does not overtake us and we would be lost and confused about the gospel. I hope i explained it well i was going to use scriptures but i left mine downstairs.

[Blessed]

I have always believed that CHrist existed eternally as God and to throw one more in... I believe we all DID. I believe that we were spirits with God in the beginning and that with Him we chose the existance we now have. Where it gets sticky is the hereafter because "will" comes into play... if that makes any sense.

Hey Dr. T, mybad for not explaining it well. What I meant is that I believe we existed as spirits with God in the before and we will exist spiritually afterwards, so I guess that means we are as eternal as God, but does not make us God.

Clearer?

[CrimsonKairos]

Before I add my comment, a word of identification is in order. This is ApostleKnight. Whoever hacked the website deleted my account. So here I am under a new screenname. Alright, on to my comment.

I think the key to understanding the phrase "same yesterday, today and forever," is to establish the viewpoint or frame of reference. I believe that God is speaking in terms of our mortal probation on this earth. His plan of salvation for His children (us) has not changed since the days of Adam up until now. He was merciful to Abraham; He will be merciful to us. He forgave the repentant then; He will forgive the repentant now.

Since a perfect confidence in God is necessary to exercise perfect faith in Him, He is assuring us that we can trust Him completely to keep His word and bless us when He says He will bless us. He is bound when we do what He says. He doesn't "change His mind," based on a passing whim or fleeting fancy. He offers us salvation through the sacrifice of His Son Jesus Christ. That was, is and always will be the path to salvation for those of us who lived, live or will live on this earth.

Perhaps a revision of the original statement will best convey my meaning:

"For God is keeping His promise to save the repentant the same way He did yesterday, today and forever."

[BenRaines]

AK, welcome back. I am sure you have sent a PM to Heather to get things straightened out.

Ben Raines

[CrimsonKairos]

Thanks Ben. Yeah, I PM'd Heather and told her I re-registered under my new name. I guess mine and SoulSearcher's profile got deleted (among others perhaps)...guess we ticked off the hacker.

[Dr T]

Hi Des,

God composed us of already existing particles.

We always existed..

He just put us together better.

I understand that you are doing the best you can Des. The problem is what you said does not say what you wanted to say. What I mean is the second sentence above does not follow from the one that preceded it. You have said that the materials always existed-not us. If we were created/put together with that material then “WE did NOT always exist.”

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Thank you for your contribution to this Sunny.

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Blessed,

Thanks for your clarification. You were talking about your belief meant “spiritually” existing not existent as a god. You would say that we are as eternal as God. That carries with it a profound implications.

Thanks

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Hey AK/CrimsonKairos (cool name btw),

Sorry to hear that your stuff was deleted. I’m glad to hear from you. I was getting worried about you. Thank you for your thoughts on this issue. I hear what you are saying about perspective. The only what it can make sense from the LDS perspective is from temporal perspective and not an eternal one. That though would not mean “eternally” the same. It would mean for the entirety of human existence while on Earth but not “eternal.” Is that what you would say? You wouldn’t ascribe it to Jesus’ eternal nature. Please correct me if I’m wrong but would you say it isn’t about Jesus’ immutability and unchanging nature apart from His role while on Earth. Is that correct?

Thank you, Sir,

Dr. T

[pushka]

Hi and welcome back AK/CrimsonKairos! :)

[CrimsonKairos]

Thanks for the welcome back, Dr. T and Pushka. :)

Dr. T, you said: "You wouldn’t ascribe it to Jesus’ eternal nature. Please correct me if I’m wrong but would you say it isn’t about Jesus’ immutability and unchanging nature apart from His role while on Earth. Is that correct?"

Correct. For me, the concept of God (whether we're talking about Heavenly Father or Jesus Christ) being the same eternally is not about someone without a beginning or end having always been the same from their non-beginning until their non-end. It's more about their love and purpose and mission being the same as those things relate to me and all of God's other children.

[Blessed]

Dr T said, "You would say that we are as eternal as God. That carries with it a profound implications."

Explain the implications if you would, kind sir.

[Dr T]

Hello Blessed,

Please bare with me, my brain is not working properly at the moment. The implications of which I was talking was based on all the reading I've done about "God." The only "uncaused cause." The being that is not contingent on anything, the being that is the cause of all things, greater than all, etc. The implications are that we, mere creatures are being equal to that being. I see that is not a problem in LDS belief but is something that I am not willing to concede at this time. Why worship a created being? I'd have to ask. I'm not talking about appreciation for skill/development like a basketball player, an intelligent person, etc. I'm talking about a Being worthy of worship based on His perfect nature-that's what I meant. Again, I'd be happy to add to what I am trying to say when I feel better. Thank you for understanding and grace.

Thank you,

Dr. T

[Blessed]

Just so you understand, I don't see myself as being equal with God. He is God and I am apart of His creation. It is hard to explain where it makes an absolute sense. I don't see him as a created being. He was, is and is to come. That is all my small mind can understand.

DOn't worry about your thinking today... it makes more sense than mine does on a good day! ;-)

[Traveler]

Hello Blessed,

Please bare with me, my brain is not working properly at the moment. The implications of which I was talking was based on all the reading I've done about "God." The only "uncaused cause." The being that is not contingent on anything, the being that is the cause of all things, greater than all, etc. The implications are that we, mere creatures are being equal to that being. I see that is not a problem in LDS belief but is something that I am not willing to concede at this time. Why worship a created being? I'd have to ask. I'm not talking about appreciation for skill/development like a basketball player, an intelligent person, etc. I'm talking about a Being worthy of worship based on His perfect nature-that's what I meant. Again, I'd be happy to add to what I am trying to say when I feel better. Thank you for understanding and grace.

Thank you,

Dr. T

Please do not take this as criticism but I think there is some contradiction in thinking here. I agree with the idea that a person is not honored with what they were born with but honor comes from what they achieve. Therefore the highest achievement possible is that of G-dlyness. I do not think that G-d is a un-designed accident. I do not think G-d is something that just happened to be - such thinking goes against everything I understand in the order of things. Those that are good at something; worked hard to develop that goodness and skill. I have no problem in understanding G-d as someone wise in achieving. For me having faith is someone that has themself excelled in achievement is wise and good but having faith in a "freak" of eternity that just happened to be exceptional is not much to have faith.

Knowing the G-d has experienced and achieved with the same questions and problems I face gives me faith that he can help me and really understands me - and everyone else. I do not understand why some say that they could not respect true achievement. Life seems to me to encourage and reward effort and achievement - and faith in one that demonstrates, by example, what manner of men (and women) we ought to be.

The Traveler

[CrimsonKairos]

For myself, I'd be more inclined to worship a Being who has attained perfection voluntarily, based on their own choices and actions, versus a perfect Being who just always "was" perfect through no fault of their own.

Note: LDS do not believe that God was created. We believe that He has always existed, though not necessarily always as a God. We believe all of us possess self-existing, uncreated consciousnesses (D&C 93:29). However, we do not view ourselves as equal to God in any way.

[Dr T]

Thanks Blessed, Traveler and CK,

This is a great topic! Maybe we can get into it when the cloudiness in my thoughts subside. The issue that I have in "becoming perfect", means that at one time, "God wasn't perfect." To worship something that has not always been perfect is where I have the problem. Like has been claimed above, "God was not created" yet the claim that he was not always god has to allow for "not > to." If God had to grow/develop/progress or however you want to phrase it, there was actually a time when god was not god. He would then be equal to us at that time. We are also putting ourself up to the potential of GOD (which I have read in LDS material) but I'm really having a hard time with. My thoughts are getting more cloudy, sorry if that didn't make sense.

Dr. T