Faith And Works

[BrotherHinds]

As promised prisonchaplain, I am responding to a part of our earlier discussion and this in regards to "faith and works".

Some have asked the question, "Why do you think you must keep commandments to be saved? Isn't that by works instead of grace?" And my answer is this:

Everything that Christ offers us is through grace and not through our merits. That includes resurrection (salvation from physical death), which all will receive (I Cor. 15:20-22), and "eternal life" (salvation from spiritual death - the death caused by sin, the death that is equivalent to being cut off from the presence of God), which relatively few find (Matt. 7:14). Eternal life is life in the presence of God, where people can "partake of the divine nature" and of godliness (2 Pet. 1:4,5) and can become "joint heirs with Christ" and partakers of his glory (Rom. 8:14-18). This wonderful blessing is made possible through His grace, not by our works. We gain access to his grace through faith (Rom. 5:2), a principle that leads us to act and obey and grow in Christ, gaining patience, hope, and so forth (see Rom. 5:2-6; 2 Peter 1:3-10). Our faith and obedience does not earn salvation, but provides access to the gift. Thus, God says in Rev. 22:14, "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the [heavenly] city." It's not doing the commandments that earns that heavenly reward, but it is an essential element for us to receive the gift that no man could ever earn.

Salvation is only possible because the Atonement of Christ allows us to repent of our sins and be cleansed, to become purified even to the point of being like Him in some sense (1 John 3:2) and receiving a glorious resurrected body like His (Phil. 3:12, I Cor. 15:40-43). Eternal life is offered to us through grace - but it is CONDITIONAL, as are all God's covenants (and all covenants and contracts of any kind). It depends upon our accepting the terms upon which it is offered. Being conditional does not make it no longer by grace, but we need to receive that grace and follow Christ, as He commands us.

Is it really conditional? Must we really repent of our sins, change our lives, and keep the commandments to be saved (in the fullest sense of the word - receiving eternal life)? Yes. To me, the Biblical teachings on this are very hard to miss. Almost everything Christ taught was about the need to change our behavior, to get on the straight path, to obey his teachings, to forsake sin and temptation, and salvation was "conditional" upon this - not "once confessed, always saved". Twice He was asked what we must do to be have "eternal life", and both times he answered that we must keep the commandments (Matt. 19:16-17, Luke 10:25-28). He warned that even the elect could be deceived, but that those that endure to the end will be saved (Matt. 24). His parable of the goats and sheep in Matt. 25:31-46 makes it clear who will have eternal life: those "righteous" that follow Him in loving and serving and blessing others. Over and over this is taught, yet the LDS Church is condemned an non-Christian and even Satanic for teaching the same doctrine the Christ preached, a doctrine which also taught the necessity of baptism (John 3:3-5) and repentance (Matt. 4:17).

Paul teaches the same doctrine just as clearly. Although we must keep the commandments, that does not save us. Although God saves the obedient (Heb. 5:9), their obedience is simply part of their side of the covenant through which Christ offers his Grace to us.

"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." John 3:5

[Dr T]

Where is P.C.? He hasn't been around for a couple weeks.

[blazius]

Twice He was asked what we must do to be have "eternal life", and both times he answered that we must keep the commandments (Matt. 19:16-17, Luke 10:25-28).

I would like to ask you about this statement from Jesus: keeping the commandments. According to the LDS church, what commandments is Jesus referring to here? Is He talking about the 10 commandments given to Moses? Or, is Jesus talking about all of the commandments in the Old Testament? Or, is He only referring to NT commands?

The direction I’m going with this is, if I’m a to be a faithful Mormon, which commandments am I to be concerned about?

blazius

[Maureen]

Where is P.C.? He hasn't been around for a couple weeks.

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<div class='quotemain'>

It's alright though--I'm heading off to Canada for vacation this coming weekend. Woot! Woot!

Where in Canada, may I ask PC? M.

Lake Okanagan region, Shuswap, St. Ives (near Celiste). It's supposed to be remote, rustic, and very quiet. Should be great for our little family retreat.

Although he didn't say how long he would be gone for. He may be back.

M.

[BrotherHinds]

I would like to ask you about this statement from Jesus: keeping the commandments. According to the LDS church, what commandments is Jesus referring to here? Is He talking about the 10 commandments given to Moses? Or, is Jesus talking about all of the commandments in the Old Testament? Or, is He only referring to NT commands?

The direction I’m going with this is, if I’m a to be a faithful Mormon, which commandments am I to be concerned about?

blazius

blazius,

The commandments we are to keep are all the commandments of God. This includes the Ten Commandments, the commandments from Christ, we are to keep all covenants we make with the Lord, and any new commandments given through prophets of God such as the word of wisdom. Read and study the Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, the Pearl of Great Price, and General Conference addresses and you will know what commandments you are to keep.

Brother Hinds

[applecore]

[

The commandments we are to keep are all the commandments of God. This includes the Ten Commandments, the commandments from Christ, we are to keep all covenants we make with the Lord, and any new commandments given through prophets of God such as the word of wisdom. Read and study the Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, the Pearl of Great Price, and General Conference addresses and you will know what commandments you are to keep.

if i'm not mistaken the intro to the section on "word of wisdom" says specifically NOT by way of COMMANDMENT but by the word of wisdom. sometimes we group things together that weren't meant to be. sometimes we put our own spin and interpretation on things by mistake. if new commandments are reveiled that don't jive with the rest of the scriptures i'd think twice about the validity of them.</span>

[Blessed]

Hi Applecore!!!! I didn't know you were on here! WOohOo!!! Tell your son, Tamara said hi!

[Dr T]

I would like to ask you about this statement from Jesus: keeping the commandments. According to the LDS church, what commandments is Jesus referring to here? Is He talking about the 10 commandments given to Moses? Or, is Jesus talking about all of the commandments in the Old Testament? Or, is He only referring to NT commands?

The direction I’m going with this is, if I’m a to be a faithful Mormon, which commandments am I to be concerned about?

blazius

blazius,

The commandments we are to keep are all the commandments of God. This includes the Ten Commandments, the commandments from Christ, we are to keep all covenants we make with the Lord, and any new commandments given through prophets of God such as the word of wisdom. Read and study the Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, the Pearl of Great Price, and General Conference addresses and you will know what commandments you are to keep.

Brother Hinds

Good luck with that. In my opinion, it is impossible to mere creatures to keep all of them perfectly. Does any of you?

[BenRaines]

As I recall reading somewhere once there were only two commandments as given by Christ. To love the Lord and to love thy brother as thyself. In these two commandments are covered all the others.

Would you kill yourself? Not in your right mind you wouldn't. No Murder

Would you steal from yourself? What is the value in that?

I am sure you can all see where this is going. I can not remember how many books of law are written and how many hours are spent interpreting the law when it is so simple.

Live the two great commandments and the rest is taken care of.

Dr. T, you are right that we are not perfect and no mortal man has been perfect in being obedient to the commandments, one or ten. Goal is to be working towards perfection. At least that is mine.

Ben Raines

[Dr T]

I'm with you on that Ben :)

[BrotherHinds]

Yes, I agree that we can not be perfect. None of us can be. We can not possibly keep ALL the commandments. Each and every one of us will fall short at some point in our lives, and that is where repentance and grace come in.

But there are more commandments than just those two that you mentioned Christ giving. Ever read the Sermon on the Mount?

Here are the commandments of Christ I find just in

The Gospel According to St. Matthew:

1) Love the Lord thy God with all thy might, mind, and strength.

2) Love thy neighbor as thyself.

3) Love thy enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you and despitefully use you and persecute you.

4) Be baptised.

5) Worship the Lord thy God, Him only shalt thou serve.

6) Thou shalt not live by bread alone, but by every word that procedeth from the mouth of God.

7) Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

8) Swear not at all.

9) Turn the other cheek.

10) Give to all those that ask of thee.

11) Seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness.

12) Judge not lest ye be judged.

13) Whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them.

14) I the Lord will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men.

Brother Hinds

[Dr T]

I C those, but as was mentioned, they all hang on those two.

[Brother Dorsey]

I would like to ask you about this statement from Jesus: keeping the commandments. According to the LDS church, what commandments is Jesus referring to here? Is He talking about the 10 commandments given to Moses? Or, is Jesus talking about all of the commandments in the Old Testament? Or, is He only referring to NT commands?

The direction I’m going with this is, if I’m a to be a faithful Mormon, which commandments am I to be concerned about?

blazius

blazius,

The commandments we are to keep are all the commandments of God. This includes the Ten Commandments, the commandments from Christ, we are to keep all covenants we make with the Lord, and any new commandments given through prophets of God such as the word of wisdom. Read and study the Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, the Pearl of Great Price, and General Conference addresses and you will know what commandments you are to keep.

Brother Hinds

And therein lays the problem....we cannot in any way keep the commandments of God. That's where Christ's atonement comes into play. The eternal law says we must keep ALL of commandments all the time period....there is no middle ground. This we know is impossible...so Christ paid the price for all of our sins. When we enter the waters of Baptism we make a covenant with the Lord to try our best, to give our best and all we can to live up to the law....but alas we cannot and it is through the love of our Lord that we can be washed clean so we can return to our Heavenly Father. When we make the Baptism covenant we enter into an agreement with God and Christ....Christ in a sense says "Give me your best, give me all you can....I know it will never be enough but I will make up the difference." It's like the parable of the bicycle which I heard many years ago....

A man had a young daughter that wanted a bicycle because everyone else her age had one....he made plenty of money and could easily afford one but wanted her to learn the lesson of thrift....he told her to save every penny she earned and soon she would have enough to buy her own bicycle. For two months he watched her do little things for her mother to earn small amount of change, she would drop her well earned coins in an old jar with a slot in the lid.....one day the man asked his daughter how it was going, she showed him the jar with the few coins in the bottom....she said to him,"Look Daddy, soon I will have enough"! "Well", he said, "then lets take a trip to the store and look at the bicycles and pick one out so when you have enough money you can buy it!" When they got to the store she searched every bike and finally came across the one she wanted....the holy grail of bicycles....she ran up to it and hugged it smiling and giggling....then she turned over the price tag and looked, her smile went away and she started to cry..."Oh, Daddy" she said, "I will never had enough money". He looked at the price tag....$150 and asked her how much money she had....through the tears she said 2 dollars and 61 cents. Of course this father loved his daughter dearly and offered her a plan....he said...if you give me your 2 dollars and 61 cents, all that you have and a big hug and a kiss, I will make up the difference. Of course the daughter accepted the plan and received her bicycle. The 2 dollars and 61 cents represents all we have, all our willingness in our hearts and minds to follow the commandments of the God....if we give our 2 dollars and 61 cents to the Lord...Christ will make up the difference whatever that may be and we will be washed clean. But you have to remember the big hug and kiss....this is our willingness to accept Christs love through Baptism and make this covenant with him. For some it might be just trying to live parts of the word of wisdom....whether you succeed or not....if you sincerely try, repent and try again, if it is truly in your heart....the price has been paid and the Lord forgives. This is the atonement....these are our works...to give our all.......whether you have $2.61, 100.61 or just 61 cents....if we give our all we will have fulfilled the covenant. Christ's atonement is free for everyone, everyone will be saved...however to gain eternal life and possible exaltation we must enter into the covenant of Baptism as Jesus tells us.

[Dr T]

Thank you for your thoughts Bro D. :)

[prisonchaplain]

Where is P.C.? He hasn't been around for a couple weeks.

MEMO TO LDSTALK BOARDMEMBERS

RE: PC's whereabouts

Message: The PC has been "on holiday," as they say up North. North Shuswap Lake, near Celista, about 1 1/2 hours from Kamloops, in BC Canada has got to be one of the most gorgeous places on earth! Just returned to day (Saturday evening), and will attend to Bro. Hinds and other posts as time permits.

[Dr T]

Welcome back P.C. :) Cancel the all points bulletin. Now, where's AK?

[pushka]

Hi PC, hope you had a great holiday!!

AK seems to be 'unregistered' now, hope all is okay with him...

[Dr T]

I do too

[blazius]

Yes, I agree that we can not be perfect. None of us can be. We can not possibly keep ALL the commandments. Each and every one of us will fall short at some point in our lives, and that is where repentance and grace come in.

But there are more commandments than just those two that you mentioned Christ giving. Ever read the Sermon on the Mount?

Here are the commandments of Christ I find just in

The Gospel According to St. Matthew:

1) Love the Lord thy God with all thy might, mind, and strength.

2) Love thy neighbor as thyself.

3) Love thy enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you and despitefully use you and persecute you.

4) Be baptised.

5) Worship the Lord thy God, Him only shalt thou serve.

6) Thou shalt not live by bread alone, but by every word that procedeth from the mouth of God.

7) Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

8) Swear not at all.

9) Turn the other cheek.

10) Give to all those that ask of thee.

11) Seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness.

12) Judge not lest ye be judged.

13) Whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them.

14) I the Lord will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men.

Brother Hinds

Brandon Hinds, I just finished reading through Matthew’s account of the Sermon on the Mount and I’d like to ask you a couple of questions.

In the list you compiled of the commands given by Christ from the Sermon on the Mount, you listed as # 4 to be baptized. Can you please tell me where that is mentioned even one time in Christ’s sermon?

Also, you mentioned as # 8 that Christ gave the command not to swear. But it seems as though you’ve taken this out of context in 5:34. In this verse Christ is speaking only of taking an oath, not foul language.

Can you please explain why you made mention of these two things that are not actually present in Christ's sermon? Or, are you saying these two items are only Mormon teachings?

thanks,

blazius

[BrotherHinds]

Brandon Hinds, I just finished reading through Matthew’s account of the Sermon on the Mount and I’d like to ask you a couple of questions.

In the list you compiled of the commands given by Christ from the Sermon on the Mount, you listed as # 4 to be baptized. Can you please tell me where that is mentioned even one time in Christ’s sermon?

Also, you mentioned as # 8 that Christ gave the command not to swear. But it seems as though you’ve taken this out of context in 5:34. In this verse Christ is speaking only of taking an oath, not foul language.

Can you please explain why you made mention of these two things that are not actually present in Christ's sermon? Or, are you saying these two items are only Mormon teachings?

thanks,

blazius

Yes blazius,

I am well aware that not everything I put into that list is taken from the Sermon on the Mount. First of all, read the sentence that proceeds that list, "Here are the commandments of Christ I find just in

The Gospel According to St. Matthew". Does that sentence imply that I was meaning only the Sermon on the Mount as found in Matthew? I did not mean for it to imply such, but rather made reference to the Sermon on the Mount to build my case that there were more commandments given by Christ that to "Love the Lord" and to "Love thy neighbor".

Also in reference to #8 "Swear not at all." I was not meaning foul language. If I had meant foul language I would have refered to swearing as using profanity rather than swearing or cussing or cursing. I meant the swearing of oaths, for Christ does command to "Swear not at all, but let thy communication be yay yay, nay nay." Perhaps that is the way I should have typed it to make it clearer. Thanks for the oportunity to better explain myself.

Brother Hinds

[prisonchaplain]

Everything that Christ offers us is through grace and not through our merits. That includes resurrection (salvation from physical death), which all will receive (I Cor. 15:20-22),

This is a rather interesting take. What is "salvation from physical death"? LDS would be the last religion to believe in annhilation of the soul, me thinks. Nobody was ever threatened with termination of existence. Further, the Bible tells that it is appointed unto men once to die, then the judgment. So, what does it mean to be saved from physical death?

and "eternal life" (salvation from spiritual death - the death caused by sin, the death that is equivalent to being cut off from the presence of God), which relatively few find (Matt. 7:14).

Do you mean that all have been provided a means of escape from this "death"?

Eternal life is life in the presence of God, where people can "partake of the divine nature" and of godliness (2 Pet. 1:4,5) and can become "joint heirs with Christ" and partakers of his glory (Rom. 8:14-18). This wonderful blessing is made possible through His grace, not by our works. We gain access to his grace through faith (Rom. 5:2)

Maybe Bro. Haines is a closet Evangelical? . . .

a principle that leads us to act and obey and grow in Christ, gaining patience, hope, and so forth (see Rom. 5:2-6; 2 Peter 1:3-10).

We actually agree here, except that I would call this result of faith "progressive sanctification." I believe Bro. Haines would tell us that this acting, obeying and growing are requisite evidences that salvation is being attained.

Our faith and obedience does not earn salvation, but provides access to the gift.

"Provides access" sounds like the definition of a key. The box is free, but you have to earn the key that unlocks the box.

Thus, God says in Rev. 22:14, "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the [heavenly] city." It's not doing the commandments that earns that heavenly reward, but it is an essential element for us to receive the gift that no man could ever earn.

Perhaps we evangelicals sound double-minded too. You can't earn salvation, but IF you are saved you will live the life of Christ. Good works, obedience, progressive spiritual maturity--these are FRUITS of salvation.

See if this is a fair summary: COJCLDS says salvation is by grace, and good works, obedience etc. are the key that unlocks the free gift. Evangelicals say, salvation is by grace and good works, obedience, etc. are the product of one who has been saved.

The gap here may seem slight, but for Evangelicals even one iota of merit infused into the grace -> salvation equation is heretical.

Eternal life is offered to us through grace - but it is CONDITIONAL, as are all God's covenants (and all covenants and contracts of any kind). It depends upon our accepting the terms upon which it is offered. Being conditional does not make it no longer by grace, but we need to receive that grace and follow Christ, as He commands us.

It is one thing to say salvation is conditioned upon obedience (which, to Evangelicals, can only be interpreted as having merit), and another to say that the gift of salvation can be lost or given up, if the recipient does not embrace the gift (which is not only eternal life, but the eternal life of Christ). In other words, we believe that good works, obedience, spiritual growth are part of the salvation package--the gift--rather than pathways or keys that provide access to salvation.

Is it really conditional? Must we really repent of our sins, change our lives, and keep the commandments to be saved (in the fullest sense of the word - receiving eternal life)? Yes.

We agree on WHAT must happen, but not how it happens. For Evangelicals, works, obedience etc. are PRODUCTS of salvation, not access pathways.

To me, the Biblical teachings on this are very hard to miss. Almost everything Christ taught was about the need to change our behavior, to get on the straight path, to obey his teachings, to forsake sin and temptation, and salvation was "conditional" upon this - not "once confessed, always saved".

"Once saved always saved," is not my cross to bare. I agree that salvation can be "lost" or "returned," if you will. Not easily, but with intentional negligence or willful rejection, the prize gained can be squandered.

Twice He was asked what we must do to be have "eternal life", and both times he answered that we must keep the commandments (Matt. 19:16-17, Luke 10:25-28). He warned that even the elect could be deceived, but that those that endure to the end will be saved (Matt. 24).

Salvation is a gift that can be lost or rejected. It cannot be earned, though, or it becomes a prize, or a payment.

His parable of the goats and sheep in Matt. 25:31-46 makes it clear who will have eternal life: those "righteous" that follow Him in loving and serving and blessing others. Over and over this is taught,

Christians are called to be holy, and obedience is better than sacrifice. I'll say amen 1000 times, so long as gospel living remains a product of salvation, and does not become a condition of it.

yet the LDS Church is condemned an non-Christian and even Satanic for teaching the same doctrine the Christ preached, a doctrine which also taught the necessity of baptism (John 3:3-5) and repentance (Matt. 4:17).

In order to embrace the gift of salvation, one would need to repent of an unholy life. The two ways of life are polar opposites. If one was not disatisfied with an unholy life, s/he would not want a holy one. Repentence is not a work or payment. It is recognition of the inferiority of the status quo vs. the life Christ offers.

Baptism, like good works, like obedience, like spiritual growth, is a product of and testimony to one's salvation, not a prerequisite.

"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." John 3:5

In the context of Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus, it is commonly understood that the "birth of water" refers not to baptism, but to natural birth. Thus the phrase in verse three, that we must be born again.

[blazius]

Yes blazius,

I am well aware that not everything I put into that list is taken from the Sermon on the Mount. First of all, read the sentence that proceeds that list, "Here are the commandments of Christ I find just in

The Gospel According to St. Matthew". Does that sentence imply that I was meaning only the Sermon on the Mount as found in Matthew? I did not mean for it to imply such, but rather made reference to the Sermon on the Mount to build my case that there were more commandments given by Christ that to "Love the Lord" and to "Love thy neighbor".

Also in reference to #8 "Swear not at all." I was not meaning foul language. If I had meant foul language I would have refered to swearing as using profanity rather than swearing or cussing or cursing. I meant the swearing of oaths, for Christ does command to "Swear not at all, but let thy communication be yay yay, nay nay." Perhaps that is the way I should have typed it to make it clearer. Thanks for the oportunity to better explain myself.

Brother Hinds

okay, great....thanks for clearing that up for me.

but I'd like to ask another question (sorry for so many questions!). Many people here have mentioned baptism in one way or another. Is baptism considered a work toward salvation? Or, is baptism required for salvation?

If I decide that the LDS Church is for me, how would I, a 28-year old adult, go about this baptizing?

thanks,

blazius

[Guest MrsS]

No matter what age you are the first step is to contact the Missionaries, they will direct you from there.

[blazius]

No matter what age you are the first step is to contact the Missionaries, they will direct you from there.

why do I have to go through missionaries, why can't I go straight to the bishop or someone more mature and intelligent in religious manners?

I have discussed these types of issues with missionaries several times, and they, like many of you here, tend to blow me off without really addressing the serious issues relating to salvation.

blazius

[Guest MrsS]

If this is what is happening, then it is because you are not serious.

The Missionaries walk, talk, live, breath, eat, sleep with the Holy Spirit 24/7- they listen to and heed the promptings of the Holy Spirit, thus the Holy Spirit knows that you are not serious.

Just like we can sense that you are not serious. You think that because you can hide behind the anonymity of the internet, and that we are not in-tuned to the Holy Spirit and thus can not be warned by Him? Wrong