Faith And Works

[Brother Dorsey]

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Hi EricM,

You said,

It's not really about knowing when you've worked enough, because in all honesty, we cannot work enough. We are saved by Christ's grace after all we can do. So do all you can do until the end of your days.

I'm trying to see if what you are saying is logical. Sorry if this doesn't make sense. I should probe. wait until hopefully next week but here is what I'm thinking. You said "in all honest, we cannot work enough." You then said "we saved by Christ's grace after all we can do." I'm familiar with that quote but have never really thought about it. Here is my problem, when you say "we cant" then the stipulation of salvation is on "after we do all we can do" the rub lies in the ultimate irreconcilable propositions you just laid out. What would after all we can do mean? Could you not have lied one time less? Could you not have been less prideful on one occasion? Could you not have been more charitable? We can always improve, in my opinion, and therefore my dilemma of "after doing all we can do." We can always do more. Do you agree with that? If we can always do more, and ultimately we can't work enough, then do these two concepts really make logical sense? Maybe they will when I feel better but they don't to me right now. Sorry if I didn't explain myself correctly.

Dr. T

The concept in what to do is the same as loving G-d with all your heart, might, mind and strength. Someone may say "what is all your heart, might, mond and strength"? If someone is thinking in terms of what is the least they can to do qualify they have missed the point. It is not about what is the minimum necessary - it is about being committed and it is about doing what G-d ask with joy. It is about never giving up and keeping G-d in our hearts.

Those that are in to no more than what they have to in any relationship have already failed the relationship. How would you like to be married to someone that was always interested only in what was necessary to keep the marriage going? And then made a big deal about doing and talking only about the very minimum that was necessary. If you are like me you would not have must trust in such a relationship or marriage.

The Traveler

You are absolutely right Traveler!

The Lord does not require the same amount from everyone.....only that we each give what we are capable of....this is our work....to endure to the end. Through Christ's Atonement we have the free gift of salvation...all will be saved.....when we enter into the covenant of Baptism we come unto Christ, we take upon us his name, we covenant to give all we can, to try as best as we can to keep his commandments....He knows what's in our hearts, He knows if we are really trying or not.....this is our work, to become as Christ like as we possibly can....in our hearts and minds as well as in our actions.....this is our work. There is no gage the Lord uses......if someone comes unto Christ in their latter years on this earth and gives their best which could mean they even have trouble with the Word if Wisdom or maybe lying....but if it is in their heart the desire to stop and they continue to try this is their best....or if you have been a member of the Church since you were 8 years old and all your life you followed almost all the commandments....this was your best....the thing is people....the Lord knows what your best is....and this is our work....to give it our best...to the end....this is where we are laying up treasures in Heaven, our exaltation. As members of the Church we are also required to enter into other more sacred covenantes with the Lord in the Temple of the Lord....covenants so sacred they are not talked about outside of a certan place in the Temple. Entering into and keeping these other covenants is also our work. Non members don't see the big picture....we are not gaining salvation by our works....salvation is a free gift all receive....we are receiving blessings and even exaltation by our works, we are gaining experience and perfecting ourselves in the eyes of the Lord with our works. Sometimes, more often than not we become instruments in the hands of God to do his work on this earth....his work becomes our work...and the Lord knows if we are sincere. I hope that explains a little....

PS: "After all we can do" means exactly that....."That's all I could do...thats all I was capable of....that was my best"....Whether you did your best and kept the commandments only 25% of the time or did your best and kept the commandments 90% of the time....that was your best and the Lord knows it and he makes up for the rest with the Atonement so we are all washed clean! Christ loves us so much to do this for us.

[Dr T]

The Lord does not require the same amount from everyone....

You don't think a perfect being requires perfection?

[Traveler]

I understand what you are saying here. The conflict I was having in my jumbled mind is the opposite of minimum. I was looking at the maximum "after ALL we can do."

Good question Doc T. What is the maximum love you are capable of when loving G-d with all your heart?

Traveler, may I ask why you omit the middle letter in the word, "God?"

It is to remind me on the internet to keep references to G-d sacred - both for my self and others that cannot copy material if G-d is spelled out.

I wanted to cover one general thought - a friend use to tell me that "your best is not good enough and good enough is not your best". We are not here to just "try" our best. We are here to partner with G-d and accomplish things we could never be able to do on our own. With G-d all things are possible.

I believe the LDS mind set is not to do our best or to accomplish some good works according to our best efforts. Our mind set is to create a covenant with G-d and then to act with the power and strength of the Holy Ghost. What we then accomplish we do by the grace of G-d and with his strength to uphold us. "To walk and not be weary and to run and not faint."

It is not about what we give with out talents and abilities to G-d it is about what we do in an alliance (called covenant) with G-d. The truth is that the more we work at doing things with and through the grace of G-d and by the power of the Holy Ghost the better we will become and the more divine power will work within us. This is the real agency. Not that we do things by our will but with the will of G-d by the power of the Holy Ghost within us.

Perfect is nothing more than doing by covenant G-d's will with his spirit within us, assisting us. It is not about what we can do but what we can do by covenant with G-d.

The Traveler

[Dr T]

Good words Traveler. :) It's hard for me to say what is the maximum of what can be done for God. I wouldn't want to hold God's power back from His action in a human's life but I also think we always fail. That is an interesting to think about.

Thanks,

Dr. T

[Brother Dorsey]

The Lord does not require the same amount from everyone....

You don't think a perfect being requires perfection?

Hi Dr. T,

I absolutely know that to enter the presence of God requires perfection...yes he does require perfection....however, in this lifetime we could in no way ever achieve perfection. But, thankfully through the infinite Atonement of Jesus Christ we can be make perfect. And the Lord does not require the same amount or level of righteousness from everyone.

Here's an analogy:

You live your life dedicated to the Gospel, you give your all and do your best to keep the commandments but naturally you fail....you keep the commandments 90% of the time....you are not perfect. Your neighbor dedicates his life to the Gospel too, he gives his all and does his best to keep the commandments....he manages to keep them around 30% of the time....he is not perfect. Dose this make you more perfect than him? No. Through Christ's Atonement he makes up the difference, both you and your neighbors sins are washed clean and both him and you are made perfect in the eyes of God. Is this fair? Absolutely...because you both gave your all, what you both were capable of...you just happened to be capable of a little more than your neighbor. It's what's in your hearts that matter, righteous desires and if you try to fulfill them. This is one of the requirements of the covenant of Baptism....to endure to the end, to give all we have or all we can....the Lord will make up the rest....and that is good news!

One of the goals of the church is to "Perfect the Saints". To be on the path to perfection....through prayer, scripture study, service to our fellow man, attending church etc. we can learn and grow toward perfection. The Lord will bless us along the way and help us toward our goal. And come judgement day when we stand before He who knows us we will be clean of our sins through His Atonement and be made perfect in the eyes of God and be able to be in the presence of God.

I hope that helps answer your question! :)

[prisonchaplain]

I'll confess to only have skimmed this thread, so forgive me if I recover points already covered. "After all you can do" and similar expressions, covers the thought that grace is not carte blanche for laziness, selfishness, and indulgence.

On the other hand, Dr. T's "What about perfection," raises the partnership issue. We can do much more than we imagine because "All things are possible with Him." Quite often, we must first realize that "All I can do" is nothing, without my LORD. But, with my LORD I can do whatever He directs me to.

The Almighty is not my last resort, or even my first choice. He is my only choice. Anything I do without Him is woefully inadequate, and, very likely, based in sin.

[Dr T]

Thank you for your thoughts Bro. D and P.C. :)

[blazius]

"After all you can do" and similar expressions, covers the thought that grace is not carte blanche for laziness, selfishness, and indulgence.

Prisonchaplain, the Mormon term, "we are saved by grace after all we can do," is this a biblical term? Does this term have any root in traditional Christianity?

thanks,

blazius

[prisonchaplain]

Blazius, my sense is LDS salvation is better understood as a combination of conversion (being 'born again') and progressive sanctification. The confusion lies in that we Evangelicals speak of the two very distinctly, and LDS tend to conflate them, speaking of both as salvation.

[BenRaines]

As I understand it Salvation was given to all because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. All die and all will be resurrected. To me that is saved from mortal death, by the grace of God.

Exaltation is what is earned.

Ben Raines

[blazius]

Blazius, my sense is LDS salvation is better understood as a combination of conversion (being 'born again') and progressive sanctification. The confusion lies in that we Evangelicals speak of the two very distinctly, and LDS tend to conflate them, speaking of both as salvation.

Yes I understand, but what do you believe? Are you combining the saved by grace concept in Evangelicalism with the Mormon belief in exaltation through works?

blazius

[blazius]

As I understand it Salvation was given to all because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. All die and all will be resurrected. To me that is saved from mortal death, by the grace of God.

Exaltation is what is earned.

Ben Raines

From what I understand salvation is what was provided to all because of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. All die but when all are resurrected some will be resurrected for eternal life and some for eternal torment:

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt (Dan 12:2).

blazius

[Brother Dorsey]

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As I understand it Salvation was given to all because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. All die and all will be resurrected. To me that is saved from mortal death, by the grace of God.

Exaltation is what is earned.

Ben Raines

From what I understand salvation is what was provided to all because of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. All die but when all are resurrected some will be resurrected for eternal life and some for eternal torment:

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt (Dan 12:2).

blazius

All will have eternal life....some will just be spending it out of the presence of God the Father without progressing to exhaultation or in other words receiving their inheritance from Heavenly Father. Without the covenant of Baptism performed by one with the authority from God as well as other sacred covenants made with the Lord....exhaultation will not happen...that is Mormon doctrine....that is truth.....that is the fullness of the Gospel. This is what we believe....this is what we know.....

[blazius]

All will have eternal life....some will just be spending it out of the presence of God the Father without progressing to exhaultation or in other words receiving their inheritance from Heavenly Father. Without the covenant of Baptism performed by one with the authority from God as well as other sacred covenants made with the Lord....exhaultation will not happen...that is Mormon doctrine....that is truth.....that is the fullness of the Gospel. This is what we believe....this is what we know.....

however, the verse I quoted from Daniel 2 states otherwise. How do you explain the contradiction?

blazius

[Brother Dorsey]

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All will have eternal life....some will just be spending it out of the presence of God the Father without progressing to exhaultation or in other words receiving their inheritance from Heavenly Father. Without the covenant of Baptism performed by one with the authority from God as well as other sacred covenants made with the Lord....exhaultation will not happen...that is Mormon doctrine....that is truth.....that is the fullness of the Gospel. This is what we believe....this is what we know.....

however, the verse I quoted from Daniel 2 states otherwise. How do you explain the contradiction?

blazius

You stated:

"From what I understand salvation is what was provided to all because of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. All die but when all are resurrected some will be resurrected for eternal life and some for eternal torment:"

So, where is the contradiction in my reply? I stated that "ALL be resurrected to eternal life"....contradiction? Show me?

I also stated....some will have progression and live with God the Father...this would be considered exhaultation.....some will not and this would be torment.......contradiction? Show me? Do you somehow believe that when you are resurrected it's not an eternal resurrection? Please show me in the Bible where it states that??

Your anti-Mormon arguments hold no water here.

[blazius]

You stated:

"From what I understand salvation is what was provided to all because of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. All die but when all are resurrected some will be resurrected for eternal life and some for eternal torment:"

So, where is the contradiction in my reply? I stated that "ALL be resurrected to eternal life"....contradiction? Show me?

You're right, Dorsey, all will be resurrected to eternal life. There is no contradiction in what you stated. Sorry for reading your post wrong.

thanks,

blazius

[Ray]

Faith and works… that’s a familiar topic.

How much work must we do? … some have asked.

How about talking about faith, and our need to have that?

How much faith must we have… I now ask.

Do you know what faith is?

Do you have faith from God?

Has God spoken to you through the scriptures?

Have you read the Book of Mormon?

Do you know it is scripture?

Do you know who to ask if you don’t?

Do you know God has prophets who are living today?

Do you know when God writes some more scripture?

Do you know what prophets are?

Do you know what scripture is?

Do you know you can learn truth from God?

How much work will do you to learn more truth from God?

Do you know you still have more to learn?

If God told you today what you don’t know right now, would you accept what God said or might say?

How much faith do you have to keep learning from God?

How much work will you do to have faith?

As you gain faith from God does God then work through you?

Can I see God by seeing your faith?

I think I now know God as I have faith in God and do all that I can to know God.

If you don’t think I do, or don’t think that I can, does that mean I don’t really have faith?

I truly know I can do all that God helps me do.

Whether you do or not is your business.

How much faith do we need to know God has saved us?

I think enough to overcome the whole world.

And how do we conquer the whole world, or the worldly?

By having faith in Jesus Christ, as His disciples.

Or at least that's what I think.

What do you think?

[Dr T]

That's the Ray I know.

[Dr T]

This verse brings up a question for me:

2 Nephi 10:24 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved.

I guess my issue in all this is Who reconciles with whom? Is it God's work that saves or is it the work of man that reconciles us to God?

Thanks for you input,

Dr. T

[rosie321]

2 Nephi 10:24 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved.

I guess my issue in all this is Who reconciles with whom? Is it God's work that saves or is it the work of man that reconciles us to God?

Thanks for you input,

Dr. T

Thus one of the great mysteries because our mortal minds cannot comprehend fully. We want black and white. One or the other. The heart begins to know its true complex beauty as it grows in grace.

That being said let me try to explain in words the best I can the answers to your questions. the best I know how from this mortal mind and its limited understandings.

God and His will that was made known will be the judge. Did you meet it or not?

Christ ( the living example of grace) will be the the intercessor for those who turn to HIm and will cover you.

All have fallen short of the glory of God. We can stay in the fallen state. But through grace we can overcome. We can press forward. Any shortcomings we have, after honest effort on our part to overcome will be considered because we have partaken its grace. Grace and faith go hand in hand. Grace is the fuel that keeps you going. It will be the thing that covers all shortcomings. So we are saved by grace but our works are a necessary part of understanding and keeping that grace in our lives.

It's a mysterious blend of the works and grace that will save us. Because you can't have one without the other. The best thing I have ever come up with to describe this is the gestalt picture. Both aspects are there and evident. Works being one part-grace the other. We may focus on one or the other side. But both are crucial in keeping the picture.

Alma 34 really helps to try and explain this too.

We look at things from everyone fits into the same box mindset. Many people are used to looking at it from a global whole church perspective. But each person is uniquely different so that blend of faith and works will be different for each person. Each person has their own gestalt. Thus the reason we are commanded not to judge.

From what I've seen and personally experienced, I think a lot of these grace / work struggles come from people who sincerely do want to do what is right and fear whether they are doing the right thing. FEAR being the big word. If we are walking in faith I don't think we need to worry. The right judgements will be made. We will not be surprised by what comes down. Those who are cast farthest away from God will be those who have "ripened" quite well in their sinful ways. There's that point of no return of which God is the ultimate judge.

I guess a question I might have is would God let a WILLING, serviceful, loving heart die without the proper things in place for Him to have the opportunity to return/go to Him? Would he just give us these things to do and not have some way for us to accomplish them? Why would he give us things to do unless he wanted us to do them. Would we want to ignore such a great sacrifice that was made on our behalf? Would we not have desires to love and serve one who gave up so much for us?

[rosie321]

One thing after going back and reading some of the posts I missed is confused concern over the "after all that you can do".

First of all we have to remember we are all learning, changing and growing at different rates constantly. We are imperfect people with the natural man living strongly with in us (some more then others). We all have different gifts, talents and abilities.

Each situation we are in , each learning stage etc is going to change the all we have to do.. We also have to consider external factors or variables. Grace enables us to do that. We may be held to a certain standard but when you grasp hold of grace, the very nature of it considers those things.

For example, this probably won't be the best but lets pick keeping up the house and making it a clean, healthy and welcome spot. That is our goal or command so to say in this instance.

What are some variables that might effect it?

Hours worked at job.

finances

kids

spouse

pets

family situations/ emergencies

weather impacts-rain, snow, tornadoes, hurricanes, floods....

commitments

Time on LDS talk:)

etc...........................................

The fact is we want the clean spot. But these factors may very well impact it at the moment. Everyone has a different number of factors impacting them. Can you really compare one without these factors to someone with all of them and more? Would it be fair?

For the person with all or more of the variables they would be wise to look at ways of changing the impact of some of these variables. Get the kids to help. Train them to clean up. Hire a housekeeper (I wish:), talk a little less on LDS talk. Maybe this wasn't the best example. But hopefully you get the point.

Sometimes we can't change these variables. Work is necessary. Can never get rid of kids. But hopefully our after all that we can do will change as we recognize the command.

OUr all that we can do is constantly changing and is different for each person. There is no one shoe fits all. This is what really makes the gospel more amazing and divinely humbling the more it is understood. With these mortal minds of ours it will keep us running around forever

[Dr T]

Thanks for your thoughts Rosie. The overwhelming things I'm taking from your posts are that "we need to earn it." We are a vital part of continued salvation. The clean house example is exactly what I'm talking about. If, grace covers all, then the "need to work on cleaning up a little everyday-is so important that if we don't then we will not be clean-idea is the works part that I'm having difficulty with. In my example, God would have cleaned the whole house from the moment of acceptance of Him. Yes we work to keep it clean but it is not "to make sure we get into heaven" but because we love God and are trying to conform to a new life. God cleaned the house-we live in it.

Dr. T

[rosie321]

Why are we on the earth again?

We believe to learn and grow.

God origionally gave men a clean house until they got kicked out. Now the mans curse is that he must work by the sweat of his brow all the days of his life. He must work.

Yes the house is cleaned up at the time of acceptance but we must work to keep the house clean. Sin stands in the way of that. God left us and kind hearts here on earth to help keep it clean :) Even the best of hearts will grow weary if a person does not do their share.

The law/works shows the hopelessness and Gods grace/faith picks up the rest and keeps us going. It will clean out any of the garbage that remains. What kind of mess do you want the grace crew to have to clean up? I would want them to be able to bring in the white gloves. Not need a demolition crew.

Isn't it a loving thing to have someone who lets you learn and grow and be like them? God wants us to learn and grow. He left us rules and guidelines to help us clean up. We won't be like Him if we do not follow his clean up rules:) Have you ever had someone come over and tell you how to do things differently. A source of many inlaw problems. Following the rules is an act of grace/faith. You could do it differently but... would you want to?

might I add he also gave us sacrament and baptism to help us figuratively cleanse ourself. This helps us clean our house out too. It covers us.

[Dr T]

Thank you again Rosie. I hear what you are saying about becoming like Him (although I would say more godly not more god) and see that you are trying to say it's two sides to the same coin. What I'm coming down to (so far) is not that. It seems to be a unilateral salvation/justification/sanctification from God to people-not people to God.

Just my thoughts,

Dr. T

[rosie321]

I'm having difficulty with. In my example, God would have cleaned the whole house from the moment of acceptance of Him. Yes we work to keep it clean but it is not "to make sure we get into heaven" but because we love God and are trying to conform to a new life. God cleaned the house-we live in it.

To the one who really knows God and is acting on faith their focus is not to get to heaven so much as to become like Him . (To be one with Him) To conform as much as possbile to God and His will.

Making sure we get into heaven and trying to earn a certain reward is selfish and in some ways shows a lack of faith and love. A biblical example of expecting was given with Christs disciples (forgive me was it andrew and ...john??? ) I'm horrible with names. Anyway, they were arguing who was the greatest. Another was given regarding the wages. Or you could compare it to schools teaching to the test or for the love of learning. Schools are teaching toward reward and tests and many kids just aren't learning what they need to. God wants us to be focused on the love of Him not on what we will get out of it. He wants us to be actively engaged in our learning rather than a curious bystander.

We don't have to worry about the technicalities when coming from a faith basis. When you have faith there is an intrinsic trust that heavenly father will make sure you have all the tools you need to get there. You don't have to worry. That is something that we can't do anything about. But we can do something about the "Go and sin no more..." and the "Learn of Me"