The Book Of Mormon And Lds Doctrine

blazius · November 3, 2006

As I have been reading through the Book of Mormon and some of the LDS Church’s teachings from other sources, I have run into some discrepancies.

One of them, for example, is that in the Book of Mormon it is implicitly stated there is only one God (Alma 11:26-29; 11:44; 2Nephi 31:21; 3Nephi 11:27, 36; and the Testimony of the Three Witnesses), yet common and current LDS teaching is that there is a plurality of gods (“…it is evident…that a plurality of gods exists.”—McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 576).

When I have spoken with missionaries or anyone else in the Mormon faith I have always been told that God the Father is one of many gods even though the Book of Mormon clearly teaches otherwise.

Can someone help me to understand the inconsistencies?

thank you in advance,

blazius

CrimsonKairos · November 3, 2006

One in purpose, not essence.

blazius · November 3, 2006

One in purpose, not essence.

But this is not what is stated in the Book of Mormon, not one single place.

This is where the inconsistencies lie and this is the core of my post.

blazius

CrimsonKairos · November 3, 2006

It's your interpretation providing the contradiction, not the scriptures.

Take Alma 11:26-29. If you read on to verse 44 in the same chapter, you find mention of "...Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God..." This is a clear example of three individual Gods being called "one Eternal God." Would Joseph Smith--who saw both the Father and the Son in a vision--turn around and teach that they are really just one Person? No. That is your interpretation of Alma 11. That is not the teaching in Alma 11.

It's easy to get confused if you only read verses 26-29. If you truly are seeking truth, you must read all the verses, and several chapters before and after to get any sort of context in place. Better yet would be to read the entire Book of Mormon and see how all the teachings fit together.

Snow · November 3, 2006

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One in purpose, not essence.

But this is not what is stated in the Book of Mormon, not one single place.

blazius

So?

You act as if you stumbled on to something. Prey tell what is it?

Brother Dorsey · November 3, 2006

As I have been reading through the Book of Mormon and some of the LDS Church’s teachings from other sources, I have run into some discrepancies.
One of them, for example, is that in the Book of Mormon it is implicitly stated there is only one God (Alma 11:26-29; 11:44; 2Nephi 31:21; 3Nephi 11:27, 36; and the Testimony of the Three Witnesses), yet common and current LDS teaching is that there is a plurality of gods (“…it is evident…that a plurality of gods exists.”—McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 576).
When I have spoken with missionaries or anyone else in the Mormon faith I have always been told that God the Father is one of many gods even though the Book of Mormon clearly teaches otherwise.
Can someone help me to understand the inconsistencies?
thank you in advance,
blazius

blazius.....I will help you....There are no inconsistencies....Yes according to Bruce R. McConkie and the church it is evident that a plurality of gods exist....it's even in the Bible in many places.....but in the lower case gods rather than Gods....why? Because we as Christians and LDS only recognize one as our God....God the Father, our Heavenly Father.

By the way....I have read the Book of Mormon a dozen times and have never read it as fast as you...to go all the way to 3rd Nephi in just a few days AND be able to quote 4 different pieces of scripture from it AND to find 4 pieces of scripture in it which basically state the same thing...you must have an amazing memory......

You did state you have been reading the Book of Mormon and this is where you have found these things you call discrepencies right!

You did really talk to missionaries about the plurality of gods issue right?

And these missionaries and other church members you said you've spoken to did tell you exactly what you have posted right?

I mean, you did it all on your own right?

This post you wrote wasn't from an anti-LDS web site right?

And being a Christian you wouldn't lie right?

All I want to know is why....why do you feel the need to come here under the guise of someone who is searching and wants to learn of our church but in reality are some kind of self righteous holier than thou anti-Mormon who feels no guilt in his deception and lies?

Thank you in advance for your honest reply!

Dr T · November 3, 2006

CK,

Please forgive my intrusion. I've heard you say something similar to this

"...Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God..." This is a clear example of three individual Gods being called "one Eternal God." Would Joseph Smith--who saw both the Father and the Son in a vision--turn around and teach that they are really just one Person? No.

That is agreed. He would not, because as I've said in the past, the Father is not the Son. Your continued interpretation of that interpretation is not accurate. They are not one person. I know you dismiss the Trinity as not true but your idea (from what I gather in your posts) is not consistent with the concept of the Trinity. I see you both (you and Blazius) putting for interpretations but are not talking about the same thing.

Dr. T

CrimsonKairos · November 3, 2006

I didn't mention the Trinity in my post. I was just telling blazius that LDS consider God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit to be three separate individuals who can be called "one God" as a metaphor for their united will.

Dr T · November 3, 2006

Sorry if I jumped. When you were describing Joseph Smith seeing Jesus and the Father and not saying they were one being, I jumped to the concept of the Trinity. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit being one eternal God not one person. Sorry for adding my two cents.

CrimsonKairos · November 3, 2006

Oh, well if Joseph Smith's depiction of the Godhead can be equated to the Trinity, sure. I just didn't want blazius thinking the Book of Mormon claims they're all one person with different names or expressions (i.e. modalism, etc...).

Traveler · November 3, 2006

As I have been reading through the Book of Mormon and some of the LDS Church’s teachings from other sources, I have run into some discrepancies.
One of them, for example, is that in the Book of Mormon it is implicitly stated there is only one God (Alma 11:26-29; 11:44; 2Nephi 31:21; 3Nephi 11:27, 36; and the Testimony of the Three Witnesses), yet common and current LDS teaching is that there is a plurality of gods (“…it is evident…that a plurality of gods exists.”—McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 576).
When I have spoken with missionaries or anyone else in the Mormon faith I have always been told that God the Father is one of many gods even though the Book of Mormon clearly teaches otherwise.
Can someone help me to understand the inconsistencies?
thank you in advance,
blazius

Prior to the fall there were many g-ds that existed in the kingdom over which G-d the Father is king. When man fell man was removed both from that society and from the presents of G-d the Father. Therefore after the fall man had access to one and only one G-d for salvation and that is the Mediator G-d, Jesus Christ the Son of G-d.

Because Jesus does all things in the name of the Father many have come to believe that the one G-d for fallen man is the same G-d as the Father. But if man can come unto the same G-d after the fall as before the fall then there really was not a fall and man needs no mediator. Then there is no need for a redeemer to remove our sins before we come unto G-d because man (Moses, Abraham and other) came unto G-d without a mediator. Before the fall the scriptures identify a purality of g-ds - after the fall the scriptures speak of only one G-d that is the mediator.

Without the LDS understanding of G-d there is no need for a Messiah. The inconsistency is in not understanding the fall of man.

The Traveler

blazius · November 3, 2006

blazius.....I will help you....There are no inconsistencies

Dorsey, I have read the Book of Mormon and have found tons and tons of inconsistencies that conflict with LDS doctrine. For example, the doctrine of the LDS church is that Jesus is not God, but is a god unto himself, yet as I read through the Book of Mormon I HAND PICKED each and every one of the following verses that state Jesus is indeed, God:

2 Nephi 1:10; 2 Nephi 6:9; 2 Nephi 10:7; 2 Nephi 11:7; 2 Nephi 19:6; 2 Nephi 25:12; 2 Nephi 25:13; 2 Nephi 26:12; 2 Nephi 31:21; Mosiah 3:8; Mosiah 4:2; Mosiah 5:15; Mosiah 7:27; Mosiah 13:34; Mosiah 15:1-2; Mosiah 15:3-4; Mosiah 16:15; Mosiah 17:8; Mosiah 26:23; Alma 11:26-35; Alma 11:38-40; Alma 11:44; Alma 30:44; Alma 33:1; Alma 42:15; Helaman 8:23; Helaman 14:12; Helaman 16:18; 3 Nephi 9:15; 3 Nephi 9:18; 3 Nephi 11:14; 3 Nephi 11:27; 3 Nephi 11:36; 3 Nephi 12:18; 3 Nephi 15:5; 3 Nephi 19:18; 3 Nephi 20:35; 3 Nephi 28:10; Mormon 3:21; Mormon 7:7; Mormon 9:11; Ether 2:12; Ether 3:9; Ether 3:14; Ether 3:16; Ether 3:21; Ether 4:7; Ether 4:12; Moroni 7:22; Moroni 8:8; Moroni 10:28; Moroni 10:32; Moroni 10:34.

You are all claiming that two or more is a witness, how about 55?

CLEARLY the Book of Mormon teaches that Jesus is God!

Blazius

Snow · November 3, 2006

CLEARLY the Book of Mormon teaches that Jesus is God!
Blazius

Since we, LDS, believe that Jesus is God, what then is the issue?

You continue to act like you have stumbled on to something - Prey tell what is it?

(actually - you didn't stumble on it - you've been studying anti-LDS material and and now here to marginalize the LDS faith in sanctimonious and self-righteous judgement - but... whatever).

Traveler · November 3, 2006

For example, the doctrine of the LDS church is that Jesus is not God, but is a god unto himself, ....
Blazius

Unless Blazius can produce official doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints that Jesus is not G-d this post should be reported and action taken to limit Blazius from printing deliberate distortions.

The Traveler

Snow · November 4, 2006

For example, the doctrine of the LDS church is that Jesus is not God,

I'm Mormon. I understand LDS doctrine pretty well (far better than blazius ever will) and I believe that Jesus is God, as does my entire family and indeed all Mormons I can think of with whom I've discussed the issue.

Why is it that a non-Mormon would even think to come into an LDS forum, misstate LDS belief and doctrine and think to get away with it?

It makes no sense. Anyone with a brain would know they would get caught. Blazius typed our her post. Typing require neural activity... which couldn't happen without a brain and so we can deduce that Blazius knew she would get caught being dishonest.

The great question is why would she want to get caught in deceit?

but is a god unto himself, yet as I read through the Book of Mormon I HAND PICKED each and every one of the following verses that state Jesus is indeed, God:
2 Nephi 1:10; 2 Nephi 6:9; 2 Nephi 10:7; 2 Nephi 11:7; 2 Nephi 19:6; 2 Nephi 25:12; 2 Nephi 25:13; 2 Nephi 26:12; 2 Nephi 31:21; Mosiah 3:8; Mosiah 4:2; Mosiah 5:15; Mosiah 7:27; Mosiah 13:34; Mosiah 15:1-2; Mosiah 15:3-4; Mosiah 16:15; Mosiah 17:8; Mosiah 26:23; Alma 11:26-35; Alma 11:38-40; Alma 11:44; Alma 30:44; Alma 33:1; Alma 42:15; Helaman 8:23; Helaman 14:12; Helaman 16:18; 3 Nephi 9:15; 3 Nephi 9:18; 3 Nephi 11:14; 3 Nephi 11:27; 3 Nephi 11:36; 3 Nephi 12:18; 3 Nephi 15:5; 3 Nephi 19:18; 3 Nephi 20:35; 3 Nephi 28:10; Mormon 3:21; Mormon 7:7; Mormon 9:11; Ether 2:12; Ether 3:9; Ether 3:14; Ether 3:16; Ether 3:21; Ether 4:7; Ether 4:12; Moroni 7:22; Moroni 8:8; Moroni 10:28; Moroni 10:32; Moroni 10:34.

I'd wager that blazius did not in fact read through the Book of Mormon and "HAND PICK" each and everyone of those verses but instead got them off an anti-Mormon website or resource.

CLEARLY the Book of Mormon teaches that Jesus is God!
Blazius

Congratulations Professor Hawking. I think you are on to something. We agree. Now - if you could only prove that String Theory is in fact the answer to the "unified" conundrum, you'd really be somewhere.

November 4, 2006

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For example, the doctrine of the LDS church is that Jesus is not God, but is a god unto himself, ....
Blazius

Unless Blazius can produce official doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints that Jesus is not G-d this post should be reported and action taken to limit Blazius from printing deliberate distortions.

The Traveler

Don't feel like typing it all over again - so I am copy/pasting from my original post - MrsS

Funny thing about when a person lies, they are not able to remember the lies that they have previously told. In My Humble Opinion, I believe that Father did this so that those who are liars will stumble and be caught in their webs of deceit, and that those of us who do tell the truth, live the truth and believe in the truth will be better able to turn away from the liars and pay them no heed.
Also in My Humble Opinion, I say here and now that blazius is a STRANGER TO THE TRUTH, and shows no inclination what so ever to aligning him/her self to the truth.
I believe it is now time to turn away from and pay this blazius no heed.

CrimsonKairos · November 4, 2006

Blazius who?

blazius · November 4, 2006

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CLEARLY the Book of Mormon teaches that Jesus is God!
Blazius

Since we, LDS, believe that Jesus is God, what then is the issue?

You continue to act like you have stumbled on to something - Prey tell what is it?

You, LDS, don't believe that Jesus is part of the Trinity, one as God the Father and Creator of the universe. You reject the traditional view of the Messiahship of Jesus the Christ and accept a lie taught by one single man, Joseph Smith and the church he founded.

When someone such as myself presents a verse unto you, such as Isaiah 9:6 that clearly and unequivocally states Jesus is God Almighty you twist it around through erroneous interpretation that is textbook LDS doctrine.

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Now that I’ve quoted it, go ahead and twist it around to make it fit the doctrine of your Church.

When you say that you LDS believe Jesus is God what you’re really saying is that you believe Jesus is A god, son of Elohim, brother of Satan. This is a lie and is in direct conflict with the bible and fundamental Christianity. And I might also add this is in direct conflict with your Book of Mormon!!!

You Mormons claim you are Christian left and right and deceive many ignorant unperceptive people, yet you Mormons believe nothing even close to biblical Christianity.

blazius

Traveler · November 4, 2006

When someone such as myself presents a verse unto you, such as Isaiah 9:6 that clearly and unequivocally states Jesus is God Almighty you twist it around through erroneous interpretation that is textbook LDS doctrine.
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Now that I’ve quoted it, go ahead and twist it around to make it fit the doctrine of your Church.
When you say that you LDS believe Jesus is God what you’re really saying is that you believe Jesus is A god, son of Elohim, brother of Satan. This is a lie and is in direct conflict with the bible and fundamental Christianity. And I might also add this is in direct conflict with your Book of Mormon!!!
You Mormons claim you are Christian left and right and deceive many ignorant unperceptive people, yet you Mormons believe nothing even close to biblical Christianity.
blazius

If you believe that Jesus is the same G-d that was the Father and king of Heaven prior to the fall; then there was no fall and need for a Messiah or Trinity or Son of G-d. Jesus is the one and only G-d after the fall that can redeem man and return man to the Father. No man can come unto G-d the Father and king of Heaven - except through the Mediator Jesus Christ. Because of the fall man has only one G-d of slavation - there is no Trinity of salvation nor does the word Trinity appear in any scripture - Trinity is a fabracation of man.

One of the basic published beliefs of the Chruch of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints from the beginning is to allow people to believe and publish their religious beliefs even if we do not allso believe such. We did not and have not marched through northern Europe murdering men women and even innocient children in the name of a "Trinity G-d" - causing more death than the "Black Plague" or calling someone that would do such a thing a "defender of the faith".

The Traveler

Snow · November 4, 2006

You, LDS, don't believe that Jesus is part of the Trinity, one as God the Father and Creator of the universe. You reject the traditional view of the Messiahship of Jesus the Christ and accept a lie taught by one single man, Joseph Smith and the church he founded.

Okay clown.

We believe that Jesus is God and is one with the Father and was the creator of the world. We accept the Messiahship of Jesus Christ and reject the manmade creeds of Nicaea and beyond.

You don't understand LDS doctrine and for you (a stranger to honesty) to call our beliefs a lie is goofy.

When someone such as myself presents a verse unto you, such as Isaiah 9:6 that clearly and unequivocally states Jesus is God Almighty you twist it around through erroneous interpretation that is textbook LDS doctrine.

You're a bit slow on the uptake. We believe that Jesus is God.

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Now that I’ve quoted it, go ahead and twist it around to make it fit the doctrine of your Church.

You're like a oddball caricature of an anti-Mormon - like someone pretending to be one in order to make them look dumb.

When you say that you LDS believe Jesus is God what you’re really saying is that you believe Jesus is A god, son of Elohim, brother of Satan. This is a lie and is in direct conflict with the bible and fundamental Christianity. And I might also add this is in direct conflict with your Book of Mormon!!!

Holy Smokes Batman. You're complaining that I am not in line with fundamental Christianity. Why on earth do you think I'm LDS?

However, to say that I believe a lie is, well besides being a two-bit bigoted thing to say is simply ignorant. Don't you realize that we are talking religion? Ever notice that God has never said word one about whether you particular interpretation of the bible is correct or wrong? To say my beliefs are a lie because I disagree with your opinion is something a child would think. Grow up and use your brain.

You Mormons claim you are Christian left and right and deceive many ignorant unperceptive people, yet you Mormons believe nothing even close to biblical Christianity.
blazius

It didn't take long for me to manipulate you into showing your true colors. You simpletons are all the same. It's would be nice if you put up a challenge for a change.

By the way - dishonest bigotry is exactly a Christian trait.

Oh - and I guess this tirade of yours means that you won't be supporting your arguments (like I said earlier) or correcting your dishonest misstatments?

Latter Days Guy · November 4, 2006

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CLEARLY the Book of Mormon teaches that Jesus is God!
Blazius