Other religions

[Traveler]

Hmmmmm - I will repeat what I said earlier - It is as important to belong to the true and living church as it is to believe in and worship the true and living G-d.

I believe that it is just as likely that there is as much to be gained in believing there is truth in all religions as there is as much good to be obtained in worshiping all G-ds.

I believe that if a person believes there is one true and living G-d and that we should worship that one true and living G-d that part of the worship includes belonging to the one true and living church.

I believe that it is just as important to seek out and find the one true and living church as it is to seek out and find the one true and living G-d. In fact - for all the discussion in the matter - I truly cannot discern any difference between worshiping the true and living G-d and being fully invested in the true and living church. Thus if there is only one G-d then it stand to reason for all that can be justified as reason that there is only one true and living church. To be one with G-d is to be one with all (no exceptions) that belong to his church and kingdom.

The Traveler

[Hala401]

Hmmmmm - I will repeat what I said earlier - It is as important to belong to the true and living church as it is to believe in and worship the true and living G-d.

I believe that it is just as likely that there is as much to be gained in believing there is truth in all religions as there is as much good to be obtained in worshiping all G-ds.

I believe that if a person believes there is one true and living G-d and that we should worship that one true and living G-d that part of the worship includes belonging to the one true and living church.

I believe that it is just as important to seek out and find the one true and living church as it is to seek out and find the one true and living G-d. In fact - for all the discussion in the matter - I truly cannot discern any difference between worshiping the true and living G-d and being fully invested in the true and living church. Thus if there is only one G-d then it stand to reason for all that can be justified as reason that there is only one true and living church. To be one with G-d is to be one with all (no exceptions) that belong to his church and kingdom.

The Traveler

Exclusivisim is one of the worst dangers to a true approach to Heavenly Father that I can think of. It is up to him to decide who is acceptable and who is not, not us. I believe the LDS church is the true church, but I can't put down another person's journey, because if they are true seekers, they will find our church. In the mean time, I need to be sweet and loving to all I encounter.

[Traveler]

Exclusivisim is one of the worst dangers to a true approach to Heavenly Father that I can think of. It is up to him to decide who is acceptable and who is not, not us. I believe the LDS church is the true church, but I can't put down another person's journey, because if they are true seekers, they will find our church. In the mean time, I need to be sweet and loving to all I encounter.

Thank you for your response - but I am confused. Are you concerned about exclusivism in the respect to worshiping the true and living G-d or are you making reference that if there is only one G-d that they do not care how they are worshiped or how they are represented through their followers?

I do not mean this as criticism of anyone in particular but I would be quite upset should anyone use a credit card of mine without my permission claiming to have right to my money in my account. Regardless if they were very careful or not with what was purchased. In the scheme of things - I would think a soul is far more important than money.

I understand completely that there are many good people doing good things. I just see things differently when one crosses a line claiming that they are connected to G-d and his truth. In my mind such a claim should not be made unless it is true.

I can honestly say that I am LDS because I believe that it is the one and only true living church on the earth and should I ever discover a better truth - be it church or G-d - I would not hesitate embracing it. Though I was born LDS I am convinced that if it was not for the LDS church - from what I have learned - I would not accept traditional Christianity and if I were to associate myself with religious thought it would most like be Buddhism.

I do not believe that as of yet that the LDS church incorporates and teaches all truth. I believe we can gain great incites to truth from other religions and that is one reason that I am LDS is because it does not reject anything that is true. But as far as legal right to G-ds kingdom; laws, covenants, ordinances and doctrine - I do not believe in a G-d of confusion and that his name can only be utilized as he specifies - not as we think it to be.

The Traveler

[Sicily510]

Truth is Faith in Jesus Christ and exercising his wisdom and living in moral conduct, all religions do possess similar understanding and truth in Jesus Christ principality. Yet, which church exercises building Zion? which religion teaches their flocks to discern the spiritual dangers, corruptions, and confusions that are seeping through society and churches through media, pride, nonbelievers, etc? Which religion teaches fast offerings and 10 percent in tithings? Which church teaches childrens that they are a child of God, and to be spiritually worthy so they may go on a mission or even marry in the temple?

Which church teaches the youth Words of Wisdom? Which church teaches men to hearken to the Holy Ghost for guidance in life instead of the influence of the world? As much as one claims to be compassionate, one must understand that Heavenly Father is compassionate to an extent, why should would Heavenly father be compassionate to the wicked who choose to be wicked? When one becomes weak and miserable and want change can one truly seek for compassion, whose the first to offer such? Our Heavenly Father. We must be loyal to the principles and firm in our faith, many religions are changing to conform to the unequality, influencing the abominable ways, we are not to judge but we are to have an eye single to the gospel of Jesus Christ because only through him are we truly glorifying God. Tolerance has been since the old testament taught and practiced upon, it has its pros and cons. Tolerance should not mean we must accept immoral and unrighteous conducts or anything that supports such matters as acceptable, it's contradicting the gospel.

Why do people think that they are just and qualified to change a very sacred laws? Inequality is the false pretense of mankinds limited understandings, is it not evident that evil is sufferable? Gradualism exists in the very fabric of our existence and it's a matter of which way we want to gradually go towards, wrong or right? What religion teaches that the coming of Jesus Christ is a blessing if ye choose to live righteously? Which religion teaches that families can be together forever? Which religion teaches the true nature of the Law of Consecration? I've been to many churches seen many different beliefs.

I volunteered to help elderly people that need care providing services. I've been privileged to meet veterans whom served in the World Wars, one veteran shared with me a story of how he was disrespected from the ignorance of how poorly schools teaches kids these days of the war and history. He said that some kid said "curse Veterans". Fortunately, I wasn't there I have a temper and am quick to lash out, something that I've been working on. When I studied in history I recall reading about how not many of these soldiers had a choice on whether they wanted to serve in the war or even military. Everything that is happening is repetitious in various corrupted revolutionalising ways. In my opinion, evolution is Zion and will consist of people who desire to live in unity pure in heart, faith, love and charity.

1 Corinthians 13:13

And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

I would like to share a summary of Roman Chapter 3:

Man is not justified by the law of Moses----He is justified through righteousness which is by faith in Christ, made possible through his atoning sacrifice.

Romans 3:10-12

10. As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11. There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Ecclesiastes 7:20

20. For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

When reading these verses, I am reminded of Jesus Christ, he is the just and righteous one that was sent to save us not condemn us, he was persecuted, he was teaching all that we are the spiritual childrens of a Eternal Father whom loves us and that in order to live with him we must live in righteous conduct.

I watched the New Testament and The Book Of Mormon, my daughter saw all the things which Jesus was doing and she saw that it was good, but when he was being crucified she was scared, sad, and crying. My daughter said "Mom, why is the people hurting Jesus, why are they killing Jesus Christ? Why are the people so mean?" Honestly, I almost was about to say I don't know teary eyed,but, something in my soul told me to tell her because these people did not understand him and want to live like him by choosing the right.

It's so hard to look at my kids and not fear the worst of things in life and struggles. With the strength of Jesus Christ's gospel I'm hopeful and able to be inspired to help lead my kids to live in Christ light. I'm very fearful of my Heavenly Father for he so freely had compassion for me that he sent his beloved son Jesus Christ to die for the remissions of my sins, every pores were bleeding as he prayed. I can only imagine Jesus Christ praying in Gethsemane asking for strength to carry our burdens, our sins and to do thy will of Heavenly Father. Ths is a symbolic meaning, that when I pray I feel so much compassion, even when I'm distraught or in pain, angry. I'm able to feel a sense of peace overcome me after.

I believe that Joseph Smith is and was a true prophet whom didn't add to the Bible but translated ancient documents that attested to the plan of salvation of Jesus Christ and his gospels. Just like Jesus Christ, Paul, Mathew, Mark, Luke, John, Nephi, Alma, Mosiah, they all were attesting that there is a Eternal Father, Heavenly Father, God. I believe that the Bible and the Book Of Mormon are words of God (as long as translated correctly), and that we are literally gathering faithfully for when he comes, again. I believe that Thomas S. Monson is a true Prophet of these Latter-days, I feel through the speech given in General Conference that Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ Loves each and everyone of us.

The Book of Moroni

Chapter 7

An invitation is given to enter into the rest of the Lord—Pray with real intent—The Spirit of Christ enables men to know good from evil—Satan persuades men to deny Christ and do evil—The prophets manifest the coming of Christ—By faith, miracles are wrought and angels minister—Men should hope for eternal life and cleave unto charity. About A.D. 401–21.

35 And now, my beloved brethren, if this be the case that these things are true which I have spoken unto you, and God will show unto you, with power and great glory at the last day, that they are true, and if they are true has the day of miracles ceased?

36 Or have angels ceased to appear unto the children of men? Or has he withheld the power of the Holy Ghost from them? Or will he, so long as time shall last, or the earth shall stand, or there shall be one man upon the face thereof to be saved?

37 Behold I say unto you, Nay; for it is by faith that miracles are wrought; and it is by faith that angels appear and minister unto men; wherefore, if these things have ceased wo be unto the children of men, for it is because of unbelief, and all is vain.

38 For no man can be saved, according to the words of Christ, save they shall have faith in his name; wherefore, if these things have ceased, then has faith ceased also; and awful is the state of man, for they are as though there had been no redemption made.

39 But behold, my beloved brethren, I judge better things of you, for I judge that ye have faith in Christ because of your meekness; for if ye have not faith in him then ye are not fit to be numbered among the people of his church.

40 And again, my beloved brethren, I would speak unto you concerning hope. How is it that ye can attain unto faith, save ye shall have hope?

41 And what is it that ye shall hope for? Behold I say unto you that ye shall have hope through the atonement of Christ and the power of his resurrection, to be raised unto life eternal, and this because of your faith in him according to the promise.

42 Wherefore, if a man have faith he must needs have hope; for without faith there cannot be any hope.

43 And again, behold I say unto you that he cannot have faith and hope, save he shall be meek, and lowly of heart.

44 If so, his faith and hope is vain, for none is acceptable before God, save the meek and lowly in heart; and if a man be meek and lowly in heart, and confesses by the power of the Holy Ghost that Jesus is the Christ, he must needs have charity; for if he have not charity he is nothing; wherefore he must needs have charity.

45 And charity suffereth long, and is kind, and envieth not, and is not puffed up, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil, and rejoiceth not in iniquity but rejoiceth in the truth, beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

46 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, if ye have not charity, ye are nothing, for charity never faileth. Wherefore, cleave unto charity, which is the greatest of all, for all things must fail—

47 But charity is the pure love of Christ, and it endureth forever; and whoso is found possessed of it at the last day, it shall be well with him.

48 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be purified even as he is pure. Amen.

I would like to conclude that The Church Of Jesus Christ Of These Latter-day Saints is the true church, there is more to Jesus Christ than his Atonement it's the promise (covenant) of everlasting life. All these questions I ask in the beginning of this post is the branches and leaves of the olive tree that will blossom for the time is nigh, these knowledge and teachings are the leaves that will in time and seasons show the true fruits and faith of our labors. I dare not boast about this church but I do bear my testimony that Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ lives, and this church has helped that knowledge grow. Hosanna to God and the Lamb and bless everyones heart.

[Bensalem]

Hello all.

It seems to me that we regularly recognize the good in other religions. Any good that brings people closer to God has truth in it, but we claim as Mormons more revealed truth, or greater collection of truth. The quotes are often about truth is found in many sources, but bring all that to the Mormon church and we will add unto it.

This is a comforting response to those who believe the Church is the "one true" church. It can be a bit offensive to others, obviously.

But I really want to hear from this group why we would think God would work and offer salvation for such a small group of His children? Temple work for the dead is a nice thought, but it doesn't make sense to me when this mortal life is so important in our test.

If I think this church is one way to God, but not the only way, am I on dangerous ground?

I have so many friends outside the church that are such wonderful good people, I'm not sure they NEED to convert. They are pretty dang good people now.

What do you all think about other religions being just as good as the Mormon church, as long as they help people develop Christ-like qualities?

Great opening post. I haven’t read what others have said, but as the husband of a Buddhist wife who wants nothing to do with Christ and who takes offense to the typical “more truth” presentation, I will share here what I shared with her.

First, I equated doctrine with hope, which we know to be faith. Buddhists and all other religious orders have teachings that represent promises. For my wife, the elimination of wants brings peace; good behavior brings the reward of Nirvana (heavenly glory). For Christians, faith in Christ brings salvation. Jews find their rewards in obedience to the Law of Moses.

Surely I am oversimplifying, but at the heart of all doctrine is a reward we hope will be fulfilled as promised.

Second, I identified the hope we have in the LDS church for the promises lacking in other doctrine. For example, Buddhists do not have doctrine related to eternal families in Israel. Christians do not have the LDS doctrine of exaltation beyond salvation. And Jewish adherents to the Law of Moses do not obtain salvation in Christ.

Again I am oversimplifying, but the point remains that what we call “more truth” is additional promises lacking in the doctrine of other religions.

Third, I collected my pennies and began to ask my wife questions about our different doctrines. Things like: Are you thankful for your being (creation)? Are you held accountable for your acts on earth? Since these are common between our doctrine, we each received a penny.

As I moved on to other LDS doctrines about the Abrahamic covenants and the promises God made to Israel (birthright, eternal families, etc.), and since I could answer yes to her questions to me related to her hopes, I began to accumulate more pennies than my wife.

In this way, I demonstrated how our truths become more in the afterlife than her truths. However, she remains unconverted.

[skalenfehl]

What do you all think about other religions being just as good as the Mormon church, as long as they help people develop Christ-like qualities?

I believe all Christian churches have the light of Christ in varying degrees. It is my witness, however, that the LDS church contains the fullness of the gospel and the authority to administer in the saving ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Edited July 14, 2012 by skalenfehl

[Gramajane]

It seems to me, Heber13, that possibly you haven't spent much time in depth *study* of LDS or other religions? Maybe you are speaking of just sitting in Sunday School and Sacrament meeting, and comparing that to other churches and also comparing social gatherings?

You see, from the time my mother suggested to me as a teenager (I am now in my 60s) that I needed to know what other churches had to offer, before I could really compare, I have had the hobby of investigating other faiths, talking to their members about what they believe, reading THEIR (not anti) doctrines, along with indepth study of LDS. (I went to my own meetings and added others ;0

I have learned a LOT! One of the things I found was a comparative chart made by an LDS, that had the religions listed edit what was said about their church, on quite a few main topics- like the God Head, baptism, life after death, etc.

What was amazing to me was when I took the chart and went to different faiths and had them check it, they agreed that different congregations across town, with the same name, might teach/believe differently because of the Pastor etc.

I was even amazed that one of my friends bragged that they actually voted on what the truth was, so they might change from week to week. Later as I was an adult I was pleased to get to travel and find what others had told me was true, that the LDS church is the same all around the world. Even in Tonga! Same lessons given in correlation (but a different language!) same hymns, same sacrament prayers, etc! Also with speaking to the missionaries from so many different countries, that served their missions in the different towns we lived in, it was awesome.

I suggest that yes, there is much good that many churches do, but there is much more truth and light in ours. My study in many areas, even in Near Death Experiences has supported my faith that has its basis in the witness of the Holy Spirit.

I sure am sorry that you seem to think LDS are elitist, as that isn't my take. What we have is a DUTY to share, because we have been blessed to know and if we don't we will be held accountable.

Study of LDS and other faiths has been a joy. Oh, I should mention that I have also done much study in Anti LDS stuff, and that is so full of lies, distortions etc, that it is disgusting. The restored church is true, the people are not perfect, but we can all know the way, and God has made it that ALL can come, which is our duty-- to invite all to Jesus Christ, to obey his commandments.

-- like baptism, as he showed us. Some churches even Baptist ones now say it isn't necessary.

May you choose to study and search for truth and then share what you find. Gramajane

[Vort]

Gramajane, Heber is LDS (or claims to be so). He is perfectly aware of our doctrine of being the only true and living Church of Jesus Christ. He is embarrassed by this claim and thinks it makes us sound petty and narrow-minded. He much prefers that we say that anyone following any old religion is doing juuuuuust fine, and that there really is no particular need to join the LDS Church. In his view, it is no better than anyone else's church.

[Bensalem]

Gramajane, Heber is LDS (or claims to be so). He is perfectly aware of our doctrine of being the only true and living Church of Jesus Christ. He is embarrassed by this claim and thinks it makes us sound petty and narrow-minded. He much prefers that we say that anyone following any old religion is doing juuuuuust fine, and that there really is no particular need to join the LDS Church. In his view, it is no better than anyone else's church.

But our promises are better (as stated in my post above).

[Seminarysnoozer]

Again I am oversimplifying, but the point remains that what we call “more truth” is additional promises lacking in the doctrine of other religions.

Ultimately, the differences are not really about facts and "doctrine". Remember that Satan knows nothing about the mind of God. His first attempts was placing the deception in the "heart" of the serpent. God's focus also is in the heart. He tells us that he doesn't see us as men do, but what is in the heart. In other scriptures we learn that what is in the heart is what determines what is produced, evil or good, so as a man speaketh. Conversion is one of a changing heart, not a changing intellect.

Even Korihor finally realized the truth after a sign was given but Alma did not pray to have it reversed because he knew he would go back to telling the same lies. How is that possible? Because the thing that God is watching carefully in this life is what is in man's heart, not what they express in words or knowledge. Demonstrated by Korihor and many other examples it is possible to know the truth and have the truth in front of you, understanding it all on an intellectual level but not make it a part of you and not have the mighty change of heart.

This is where the power of the priesthood and all the covenants assist. When a person starts to make that change of heart, there are priesthood ordinances that help a person maintain that change of heart more than what they can do on their own and that assistance is not in the form of learning more doctrine or having additional doctrine. I comes in things like the gift of the Holy Ghost and all the other contractually binding assistance from God that is not available to anyone who does not have those contractually binding ordinances and remains worthy of them.

This is why I said a few posts back the shortsightedness of thinking that any other religion can get us there is the lack of testimony regarding the power of the Priesthood, God's order, and the value of assistance received from covenants that goes beyond simply having a title or passing through the gate of the particular covenant. These allow for the steps needed to change the heart. The desire of the heart is more important than the quantity of doctrine or the quantity of truth revealed while in this life.

Satan from the beginning used that deception with Eve, don't you want to know all? The deception being that our ability to know all comes after the test of Faith and after the change of heart. Even God wants us to serve with all our heart might mind and strength but the heart comes first. Just doing the right thing by accident or by tradition or forced is not the test, it has to come with intent and purpose, which is included in what "heart" means.

[Bensalem]

Ultimately, the differences are not really about facts and "doctrine". Remember that Satan knows nothing about the mind of God. His first attempts was placing the deception in the "heart" of the serpent. God's focus also is in the heart. He tells us that he doesn't see us as men do, but what is in the heart. In other scriptures we learn that what is in the heart is what determines what is produced, evil or good, so as a man speaketh. Conversion is one of a changing heart, not a changing intellect.

Even Korihor finally realized the truth after a sign was given but Alma did not pray to have it reversed because he knew he would go back to telling the same lies. How is that possible? Because the thing that God is watching carefully in this life is what is in man's heart, not what they express in words or knowledge. Demonstrated by Korihor and many other examples it is possible to know the truth and have the truth in front of you, understanding it all on an intellectual level but not make it a part of you and not have the mighty change of heart.

This is where the power of the priesthood and all the covenants assist. When a person starts to make that change of heart, there are priesthood ordinances that help a person maintain that change of heart more than what they can do on their own and that assistance is not in the form of learning more doctrine or having additional doctrine. I comes in things like the gift of the Holy Ghost and all the other contractually binding assistance from God that is not available to anyone who does not have those contractually binding ordinances and remains worthy of them.

This is why I said a few posts back the shortsightedness of thinking that any other religion can get us there is the lack of testimony regarding the power of the Priesthood, God's order, and the value of assistance received from covenants that goes beyond simply having a title or passing through the gate of the particular covenant. These allow for the steps needed to change the heart. The desire of the heart is more important than the quantity of doctrine or the quantity of truth revealed while in this life.

Satan from the beginning used that deception with Eve, don't you want to know all? The deception being that our ability to know all comes after the test of Faith and after the change of heart. Even God wants us to serve with all our heart might mind and strength but the heart comes first. Just doing the right thing by accident or by tradition or forced is not the test, it has to come with intent and purpose, which is included in what "heart" means.

What you say about the need for a change of heart vs pure informational persuasion is true. That is why in my earlier post I addressed the hope each religion teaches and compared them; hope comes from the heart. My approach in so doing is to change the hope one has in their heart. As I implied, my wife's heart was not changed. But at least she has the information of what LDS hope for. Maybe she will someday hope for the same things and be motivated to seek them out.

Thanks for the example of Korihor. It answers a question I had during my own conversion. I was always concerned about Elijah killing all the prophets of Baal after proving their god to be false (or at least absent) and his God to be true (or at least responsive in fire). I felt that all those hundreds of witnesses would serve God well. I guess like Alma, Elijah knew better.

Satan continues to wield his power to "strike the heels" of the descendants of Adam and Eve. His victory is to stop the progression of God's children anywhere short of exaltation in Israel or eternal families in the Priesthood. As you said, "the lack of testimony regarding the power of the Priesthood" (which I believe is crippling) derails the receipt of the covenants, which lead to the "steps needed to change the heart" and progress beyond doctrine frozen in time.

Revelation and a belief in the only living church on earth is the antidote for Satan's poison. What else will allow people to break his grasp and reach for the new hope found in His everlasting gospel?

[Heber13]

I appreciate everyone's responses. Good thoughts. There are a few I feel I should respond to so that Vort doesn't need to speak for me:

Gramajane:

It seems to me, Heber13, that possibly you haven't spent much time in depth *study* of LDS or other religions? Maybe you are speaking of just sitting in Sunday School and Sacrament meeting, and comparing that to other churches and also comparing social gatherings?

No, this would not be accurate. I've spent a lot of time studying. On my mission, I was AP and missionaries came to me with questions on how to handle people in their area of other religions pointing out things they couldn't answer, so I would instruct them a little more on what Jehovah Witnesses believe, or baptists, or Jews. When I served in the bishopric and high council, I would answer questions of ward members and stake members who had part-member family situations and were concerned about issues. I've studied a good deal. It is one reason I see things the way I do.

Bensalem:

As I moved on to other LDS doctrines about the Abrahamic covenants and the promises God made to Israel (birthright, eternal families, etc.), and since I could answer yes to her questions to me related to her hopes, I began to accumulate more pennies than my wife.

I really like this approach with your wife...it seems an interesting lesson. However, I would imagine if you played this game with the Dalai Lama and allowed him to ask the questions, he'd end up with more pennies than you. I don't mean that to attack your idea...only to make a point that any claims our religion makes on holding more truth, are also echoed in many other religions. Obviously, since these debates have gone on forever, and there are never winners in debating "more" or "better" truth claims among groups.

SeminarySnoozer:

I think your hang up might be the value of covenants. I would suggest working on gaining a testimony of what it means to have covenants and the value it brings to this life. Covenants are not just titles. They are not just gates to pass through then move onto the next. They are vehicles that allow a person to move to the next step. They are the method in which God can partner with us to achieve more than what we can do on our own.

I cherish the temple covenants I have made. I like your last sentence in that they are methods to help God partner in our lives. Well said. I also believe other religions have their rituals and covenants that help them as well, and help them partner with God also. I'm not advocating the covenants be lessened in importance or looked at as no big deal. I'm saying that some in our church use them well to get closer to God, some use them as checklists to feel good they are in the right way, and some discard them. It is the personal use that gives them power, along with the spiritual power from God. Similarly, other religions have their covenants or promises that their people benefit from by keeping their commitments to them.

If I wanted to take a trip to Hawaii, it would be silly to think that I could get there by walking or riding a bike or by car.

I like your analogy of getting to a destination. It makes my point well. I think the mistake you are making is to suggest only one form of transportation to get to Hawaii. I agree with you about walking, biking, or driving. But then to jump to a conclusion that there is only one way left...planes...would be the mistake. If you look at all the people that are in Hawaii, they did not all get there by plane. So, we must re-examine the assumptions, or as others in this thread seem to allude to... we could say I'm not sure how others got to Hawaii, but for me, I think taking a plane is best and that is what I'll do. But we cannot say, there is only one way to get to Hawaii.

I want to remind the group, my testimony is that the Church is true. I have been a member all my life, and will likely always be, for I love the Church and what it teaches.

But my studies perhaps help me see there needs to be some reform in the church (as we all strive for perfection), if we could just get people to see things differently. I don't say this as a heretic, I am trying to say the same thing our prophet has said:

President George A. Smith said:

“Within the last year, I have had the privilege of meeting and conversing on the gospel with some men who live in this community [salt Lake City], not members of our Church. One man had resided here for twenty years, a man whose life is above reproach, a good citizen, a splendid business man, one who has kindly feelings towards our people. He told me that he had lived here twenty years, and he had come to the conclusion that we were just as good as our neighbors who are members of other churches; he could not see any difference in us.

“I want to say to you, my brethren and sisters, that is no compliment to me. If the gospel of Jesus Christ does not make me a better man, then I have not developed as I should, and if our neighbors not in this Church can live among us from year to year and see no evidence of the benefits that come from keeping the commandments of God in our lives, then there is need for reform in Israel.

We should not rest on our truth claims to make us feel good about ourselves when the fruits we produce are not distinguishable from our neighbors, and I'm speaking about the church collectively, not individually.

[Vort]

I like your analogy of getting to a destination. It makes my point well. I think the mistake you are making is to suggest only one form of transportation to get to Hawaii.... we could say I'm not sure how others got to Hawaii, but for me, I think taking a plane is best and that is what I'll do. But we cannot say, there is only one way to get to Hawaii.

You are right that we can't truthfully say any such thing about traveling to Hawaii. But we CAN truthfully say that there is only one true Church of Jesus Christ. And we CAN truthfully say that no accountable being will ever come unto Christ -- ever, throughout all eternity -- except through the vehicle of his gospel. And we CAN truthfully say that the only vehicle of Christ's gospel today is the LDS Church.

You may not believe these things, nor are you compelled to do so. But however grand your position as AP was, however great your service in the bishopric, however noble and exalted your high council position, you are both wrong and heretical if you state that other religions are "just as good as" the LDS Church in bringing people to Christ. Such a teaching is explicitly contrary to the teachings of the prophets and, if true, would render the very existence of the LDS Church unnecessarily superfluous.

[Heber13]

The more you jump up and down and say you're right...doesn't make you right.

You're missing the point because of your defensiveness.

This is exactly what our church teaches:

- The Church is true

- The Church has authority

- All must follow Christ by entering into the gate, and receiving necessary ordinances

- Vicarious work is done for all, so everyone has the opportunity in this life or the next to be rewarded for how they lived in this mortal probation

Since there are many paths (thanks to Temple Work), we do not need to use the "us vs. them" mentality someone earlier on the thread mentioned.

Let God judge. Meanwhile, according to our prophet (see GA Smith quote), Israel may have reforming to do, because the fruits don't always distinguish us from other dedicated citizens in our communities. I don't think that can be debated.

[Hala401]

Hello all.

It seems to me that we regularly recognize the good in other religions. Any good that brings people closer to God has truth in it, but we claim as Mormons more revealed truth, or greater collection of truth. The quotes are often about truth is found in many sources, but bring all that to the Mormon church and we will add unto it.

This is a comforting response to those who believe the Church is the "one true" church. It can be a bit offensive to others, obviously.

But I really want to hear from this group why we would think God would work and offer salvation for such a small group of His children? Temple work for the dead is a nice thought, but it doesn't make sense to me when this mortal life is so important in our test.

If I think this church is one way to God, but not the only way, am I on dangerous ground?

I have so many friends outside the church that are such wonderful good people, I'm not sure they NEED to convert. They are pretty dang good people now.

What do you all think about other religions being just as good as the Mormon church, as long as they help people develop Christ-like qualities?

I wasn't religious until my late 20's and then was evangelical/fundamentalist for a little over 30 years, going to a Baptist church, Catholic church, Assembly of God, Foursquare International and a few others, until I got disgusted and they threw me out. Then I was Muslim for about 7 years, and had not intended to become LDS. I was seeking God, but never thought that "those Mormons" would have any clue about that.

Initially, I was not interested in the church at all. They just had this fantastic historical site in Kirtland, with this very interesting looking church up on the hill. I even told them flat out that I was not interested in being a Mormon but that after reading about them, felt sympathetic to their plight in the 1800's.

And, their management was not sure they wanted me either, but seemed content to allow me to learn all about them. Well, I'm not going to repeat the story since the lurid gossip about me is probably more interesting.

The point is that, some of the other non LDS religions do a better job than others. I've talked to some very Christ like people, and then there have been the others that say we do not believe in Jesus Christ, do blood sacrifices, torment women and all that outrageous stuff that we here know to not be truthful.

At the risk of being chewed out again, I will say that in my experience, most in the LDS church, in fact all who I have encountered face to face practice a love that is uncommon among christians. I find Mormons to be generally non-judgmental, and were even loving to me when I was still a Muslim!

Don't delude yourself, Mormons are uncommon in that respect. In fact I know of a few churches where if I walked in there in Hijab and Abaya, there would be a tear in "their" fabric of heaven.

By contrast, I walked into the Vistior's Center next door to the Portland Temple in full Niqab and Abaya and asked for a tour in my fake pseudo Arabic trying to speak English. Much to my astonishment, the sisters there were absolutely loving and kind to me. I thought I was playing a joke on them, but the incident was so moving for me, it absolutely proved to me that Mormons are who they say they are.

So, please do not sell Mormonisim short. I think there is something special here. In my experience we say that we simply have a more complete truth.

[Heber13]

Thanks for sharing your journey. Being a member all my life, I love hearing the stories from converts that have a unique outlook on it. Your story is inspiring!

So, please do not sell Mormonisim short.

I don't feel we are selling Mormonism short by not elevating it above others. I feel we should agree on what you said...

I think there is something special here.

I agree. There is something beautiful and special, and I love my faith.

It does not need to be compared to others to be special to me. It stands on its own.

[Hala401]

Thanks for sharing your journey. Being a member all my life, I love hearing the stories from converts that have a unique outlook on it. Your story is inspiring!

I don't feel we are selling Mormonism short by not elevating it above others. I feel we should agree on what you said...

I agree. There is something beautiful and special, and I love my faith.

It does not need to be compared to others to be special to me. It stands on its own.

To be frank, Islam was failing on me, and without any family and few close ties, Heavenly Father was pulling me in. At first, it felt really frightening to me, and I even asked the missionaries if they realized how repulsive I was. So, it was not like Mormons got a great deal on me. It did save my life though, what ever that is worth.

[Sicily510]

I understand Vorts point, once one is given the knowledge of the Church Of Jesus Christ of These Latter-day Saints one must choose whether they are going to support it 100% or only a certain percent and less. This church teaches loyalty, immovable faith, and to be steadfast through Jesus Christ in adversity. Change in my opinion is the ability to perfect oneself, whom of all mankind has succeeded in this? Jesus Christ, so when truly understanding his gospel one must put 100% not 90 %, 50%, or even 20%. Think about it, if change is adapting what do we adapt to being righteous or unrighteous? It's apparent that truth is in all things but sometimes not all things narrow down to the truth which is Jesus Christ. For example, when one seeks truth in other religions one is diluting their faith in the religion that they are already in, in my opinion. As stated by Gordon B. Hinckley the six B's:

Be grateful.

Be smart.

Be clean.

Be true.

Be humble.

Be prayerful.

If someone is telling you that truth is in the LDS Faith, don't demise it with comparison but embrace it with humility. Isn't it ashame to compare the truth of Jesus Christ with other beliefs? If one believes in Jesus Christ what better way to believe in him above all things, that is why those who believe in him see's truth in all things but seeks truth in only him.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Sicily510

[Bensalem]

I really like this approach with your wife...it seems an interesting lesson. However, I would imagine if you played this game with the Dalai Lama and allowed him to ask the questions, he'd end up with more pennies than you. I don't mean that to attack your idea...only to make a point that any claims our religion makes on holding more truth, are also echoed in many other religions. Obviously, since these debates have gone on forever, and there are never winners in debating "more" or "better" truth claims among groups.

But I would probably agree with much of what he had to say, so long as I could see the good in it, which I know comes from Christ. Likewise, with other religions. Most religions profess good behavior and the concept of reward and punishment. These are all supported by and are the Word of God delivered to people along the way through history.

We have to remember that the scriptures from Genesis to the LDS Church are a record of His chosen people. His call is to become his chosen. But the human tradition is to branch out on one's own. Not to mention God's own banishments, like Cain from his family or at the tower of Babel. These outcasts maintained a memory of the truth and no doubt passed in on their communities. Even the mythologies of Greece and Rome speak of a father God who must deal with good and evil demigods (angels).

[Vort]

The more you jump up and down and say you're right...doesn't make you right.

True enough. I am right because I speak the truth, not because I jump up and down.

You're missing the point because of your defensiveness.

You misinterpret insistence on honest discourse and doctrinal clarity as defensiveness.

This is exactly what our church teaches:

- The Church is true

- The Church has authority

- All must follow Christ by entering into the gate, and receiving necessary ordinances

- Vicarious work is done for all, so everyone has the opportunity in this life or the next to be rewarded for how they lived in this mortal probation

Our Church teaches far more than merely these things. For example, our Church very clearly and unambiguously teaches that it, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, is the only true and living Church of Jesus Christ on the earth, the only organization with authority from God to act in his name in solemnizing covenants.

Since there are many paths (thanks to Temple Work), we do not need to use the "us vs. them" mentality someone earlier on the thread mentioned.

You keep saying this, but repetition does not make your falsehood any truer.

There are not many paths. There is one path. Just one.

Let God judge. Meanwhile, according to our prophet (see GA Smith quote), Israel may have reforming to do, because the fruits don't always distinguish us from other dedicated citizens in our communities. I don't think that can be debated.

I do agree that we should be much better than we are, and that merely being as good as So-and-so, who is a Christian, is not sufficient. But the weaknesses of the members do not invalidate the Church's claim to unique divine authority.

Your claim of "many paths" is simply false. I do not believe this is a matter of talking past each other and using different word tokens for the same idea. Rather, I take your words at their face value, and I accept that you truly do believe that the LDS Church has no special claims on truthfulness and that you think there truly are many paths to salvation, not merely that path that leads through the LDS Church. And I am sorry for your lack of confidence in the truths of the restored gospel. But you ought not preach such nonsense.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Vort

[Heber13]

It did save my life though, what ever that is worth.

That's worth a lot! The worth of souls is great!!

[Heber13]

And I am sorry for your lack of confidence in the truths of the restored gospel. But you ought not preach such nonsense.

I am sorry you are not able to find a more humble way to express your convictions and respect my beliefs at the same time.

We are not disagreeing on much. The church is unique, and has authority. We agree on that.

It just feels to me that too much in the church I hear on Sunday is comparison to other "ways" when the comments feel uninformed to me, they are more just filled with the kind of pride that Pres Uchtdorf warned against.

I have watched sports fans vilify and demonize their rivals. They look for any flaw and magnify it. They justify their hatred with broad generalizations and apply them to everyone associated with the other team. When ill fortune afflicts their rival, they rejoice.

Brethren, unfortunately we see today too often the same kind of attitude and behavior spill over into the public discourse of politics, ethnicity, and religion.

My dear brethren of the priesthood, my beloved fellow disciples of the gentle Christ, should we not hold ourselves to a higher standard? As priesthood bearers, we must realize that all of God’s children wear the same jersey. Our team is the brotherhood of man. This mortal life is our playing field. Our goal is to learn to love God and to extend that same love toward our fellowman. We are here to live according to His law and establish the kingdom of God. We are here to build, uplift, treat fairly, and encourage all of Heavenly Father’s children.

When we have a testimony of God's gospel, and we love everyone we see, we are not concerned with elevating one from the other, we just go and show the light and goodness of what we believe. Should there be other ways, it is not of our concern. We don't have to be the only way in order to roll our sleeves up and move forward building the kingdom of God. If there is one way, let our actions show it. If we have greater truth, let it work within us. Humility is by showing, not by touting superiority on any other religion, ethnicity, or political affiliation. That is not Jesus' way.

Love is the way to God. Seeing the good in other ways does not diminish the divinity of our way.

[Vort]

I am sorry you are not able to find a more humble way to express your convictions

Can you point to anything I have written that is prideful? Anything?

and respect my beliefs at the same time.

You might have a legitimate criticism here. I expect loyalty from Church members, and more especially from high priests. At the bare minimum, I expect such people to acknowledge fundamental Church doctrine. So when a high priest who does not hesitate to name his leadership experience fails to uphold the doctrine that he claims to believe, I take a dim view of that. But despite that, I probably need to have more respect for the individual involved, regardless of how repugnant I find his actions. I don't believe that Christ would voice such disdain. So I acknowledge the probable truth of your criticism.

But I note that you refuse to respond to any of my criticisms, except to wave them off.

We are not disagreeing on much. The church is unique, and has authority. We agree on that.

No, we do not agree on it. You have made it exceedingly clear that you believe the Church is not unique, that in fact there are many ways to God. In your view, the Church fills no function that is not equally well filled by other religious organizations.

It just feels to me that too much in the church I hear on Sunday is comparison to other "ways" when the comments feel uninformed to me, they are more just filled with the kind of pride that Pres Uchtdorf warned against.

You and I hear very different things at Church. I never hear any such thing. I do occasionally hear my fellow Saints talk about how their previous religious traditions left them unsatisfied and questioning, and how the restored Gospel filled that void. But that is a far cry from the pride you claim to be hearing at Church. Maybe my ward is just much better than yours. I suppose that is certainly possible; my ward is outstanding, one I am ecstatic and humbled to be a part of.

Love is the way to God. Seeing the good in other ways does not diminish the divinity of our way.

Yet no one has suggested that we not see the good in other ways. Rather, we should not proclaim such falsehoods as "They're just as good as the LDS Church!" or "There are many paths to God!" when our doctrine is crystal clear in teaching the opposite.

[Sicily510]

Hi Heber13,

It's hard for me to sympathize with you trying to teach humble compassion when you open a thread with this type of proposition:

It seems to me that we regularly recognize the good in other religions. Any good that brings people closer to God has truth in it, but we claim as Mormons more revealed truth, or greater collection of truth. The quotes are often about truth is found in many sources, but bring all that to the Mormon church and we will add unto it.

I don't understand how you are trying to teach the compassion of Heavenly Father, yet your bringing up the same comparison that you're condemning.

This church has been teaching to be humble and loving, not all of us is going to be a perfect example of conveying such teachings. When I re-read your first post you remind me of the need to strengthen my individual faith because I wouldn't chasten members of the LDS faith but my friends to know what our church believes in which is to comfort those who stand in need of comfort and to do charity for our fellowmen. Truth is not only in our doctrines but in the testimony we bear with the non-believers from our own spirit, that's why it's important to stand up for what you believe in or don't believe at all.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Sicily510

[Heber13]

Can you point to anything I have written that is prideful? Anything?

I'm not too interested in getting into that, but if it helps you, just one example is...

Maybe my ward is just much better than yours.

More than that...it is the general tone that you are right and I am wrong, which I don't see it that way.

I'm fine with being a High Priest and having my view. Your expectations of others in the church and me is about you, so if I'm not responding to your points and waving them off, it is because I don't care to continue to rehash the same things with you. I understand your point of view. I just disagree with it. And I think it is OK in the church for various views to exist.

Perhaps if you had some doctrinal quotes or teachings, I could respond to that. But it isn't worth it for me to respond to:

Your claim of "many paths" is simply false.

That is just your opinion, and you can have it.