Sermon opposing gay marriage may lead to church eviction

[prisonchaplain]

A school district superintendent seeks to evict a church from the high school it rents after hours, specifically because of two sermons the pastor preached. Both sermons opposed gay marriage and opposed the homosexual lifestyle. Religious liberty groups are outraged that a church which pays rent could be evicted because of the content of sermons.

Jack Hakimian, Controversial Pastor, Wants Apology From Miami-Dade Schools (VIDEO)

[annewandering]

Well I am outraged too. Its unconstitutional.

[Soulsearcher]

I'm confused. We've seen people up in arms about trying to force christians to do business with gays. It's said they should have the right to deny gays any number of things due to christians having a religious objection to their life style including renting rooms. Now that the shoe is on the other foot and christians are being told that due to their stance a group no longer wants their money this is wrong? Isn't this exactly what people have been championing for, the ability to tell people to get lost for what they hold as a true belief in a business setting?

[Vort]

I'm confused. We've seen people up in arms about trying to force christians to do business with gays. It's said they should have the right to deny gays any number of things due to christians having a religious objection to their life style including renting rooms. Now that the shoe is on the other foot and christians are being told that due to their stance a group no longer wants their money this is wrong? Isn't this exactly what people have been championing for, the ability to tell people to get lost for what they hold as a true belief in a business setting?

Hardly. A school building is not a private business. Rather, it is as if some pro-homosexuality group were being evicted from renting school property in the off-hours because they kept preaching vile, icky things that some community members didn't like.

[Soulsearcher]

Hardly. A school building is not a private business. Rather, it is as if some pro-homosexuality group were being evicted from renting school property in the off-hours because they kept preaching vile, icky things that some community members didn't like.

So you would really seen no difference if your scenario happened then? Either group being evicted would be just as wrong?

[prisonchaplain]

I'm confused. We've seen people up in arms about trying to force christians to do business with gays. It's said they should have the right to deny gays any number of things due to christians having a religious objection to their life style including renting rooms. Now that the shoe is on the other foot and christians are being told that due to their stance a group no longer wants their money this is wrong? Isn't this exactly what people have been championing for, the ability to tell people to get lost for what they hold as a true belief in a business setting?

Soul, the individual trying to evict the church is an agent of the government. He is, in his office as Superintendent, declaring this pastor and this church as unworthy renters because of the content of their religious speech. You're okay with that???

BTW, we lost the ability to choose our renters based upon such things as marriage status, sexual orientation, or even mores. Now that the shoe is on the other foot...

[Soulsearcher]

Soul, the individual trying to evict the church is an agent of the government. He is, in his office as Superintendent, declaring this pastor and this church as unworthy renters because of the content of their religious speech. You're okay with that???

BTW, we lost the ability to choose our renters based upon such things as marriage status, sexual orientation, or even mores. Now that the shoe is on the other foot...

I'm not ok with it in the least, I'm just pointing out to all the people who keep saying it's ok to say " sorry you are gay and i won't do business with you" should stop and look a bit. If it's not ok for a government official who strongly disagrees with a religious stance to say we won't do business with you, is it really ok for others to carry out the same spirit towards others. No body likes being punished for who they are and what they believe, but christians have been saying they want the ability to do pretty much what's being done here, tell people they don't agree with that we don't want your money. The situation is different but the spirit is very much the same, and if you aren't ok with the spirit of what's happening maybe it's time to wonder?

I worry more about a golden rule kind of idea, treat others as you want to be treated. I dread the day when it becomes " sorry you're a _______ get out of my business" and it just keeps growing to a point of being petty or vengeful.

Edited July 25, 2012 by Soulsearcher

[MarginOfError]

I'm not ok with it in the least, I'm just pointing out to all the people who keep saying it's ok to say " sorry you are gay and i won't do business with you" should stop and look a bit. If it's not ok for a government official who strongly disagrees with a religious stance to say we won't do business with you, is it really ok for others to carry out the same spirit towards others. No body likes being punished for who they are and what they believe, but christians have been saying they want the ability to do pretty much what's being done here, tell people they don't agree with that we don't want your money. The situation is different but the spirit is very much the same, and if you aren't ok with the spirit of what's happening maybe it's time to wonder?

I worry more about a golden rule kind of idea, treat others as you want to be treated. I dread the day when it becomes " sorry you're a _______ get out of my business" and it just keeps growing to a point of being petty or vengeful.

So wait...a superintendent leases public property to a church organization and then gets upset that said organization has strong opinions? I think the superintendent is being stupid. If he were smart, he'd rent an adjacent room to a pro same sex marriage group.

[Bini]

I got what you were getting at, Soul.

[prisonchaplain]

I'm not ok with it in the least,

Thank you! This is the meat and potatoes of my post. Any other agreement we gain is gravy.

I'm just pointing out to all the people who keep saying it's ok to say " sorry you are gay and i won't do business with you" should stop and look a bit. If it's not ok for a government official who strongly disagrees with a religious stance to say we won't do business with you, is it really ok for others to carry out the same spirit towards others.

You are right. We tended to follow the pattern of Old Testament Israel, which was a religious community--a theocracy. Jesus should be our model. He came for "sinners." The Apostle Paul, the dominant New Testament author, labeled himself the chief of sinners. So, you are correct to point out Christian Pharisaism.

No body likes being punished for who they are and what they believe, but christians have been saying they want the ability to do pretty much what's being done here, tell people they don't agree with that we don't want your money. The situation is different but the spirit is very much the same, and if you aren't ok with the spirit of what's happening maybe it's time to wonder? I worry more about a golden rule kind of idea, treat others as you want to be treated. I dread the day when it becomes " sorry you're a _______ get out of my business" and it just keeps growing to a point of being petty or vengeful.

Is this still common and open, or does this happen in more subtle, non-publicized ways. I have not seen stories of people refusing to do business with the LGBT community recently.

[annewandering]

I'm confused. We've seen people up in arms about trying to force christians to do business with gays. It's said they should have the right to deny gays any number of things due to christians having a religious objection to their life style including renting rooms. Now that the shoe is on the other foot and christians are being told that due to their stance a group no longer wants their money this is wrong? Isn't this exactly what people have been championing for, the ability to tell people to get lost for what they hold as a true belief in a business setting?

its a school. and they rent to around 90 different religious groups. It is discrimination to decide one isnt politically correct. Since when are schools considered businesses?

This is not a gay issue or a free speech issue. It is a freedom of religion issue. If any arm of the government rents to one religious group they have to rent to any religious group. It is illegal for government to discriminate against any religion or favor any religion no matter how unpopular their beliefs may be.

Edited July 25, 2012 by annewandering

[prisonchaplain]

Anne...I agree that it is a freedom of religion issue. However, it is also a freedom of speech issue. The Superintendent is trying to punish the church for speech. The pastor even reached out to the homosexual community, asking them to join him in opposing government supression of free speech.

[Soulsearcher]

Is this still common and open, or does this happen in more subtle, non-publicized ways. I have not seen stories of people refusing to do business with the LGBT community recently.

depends on how one defines recent. I usually find a story every few weeks or so.

People keep bringing up the photographer that got sued for refusing to shoot a gay wedding, the cake maker who got sued for not doing a wedding cake, the church that got sued for not letting a gay couple get married on land they leased from the government. Up here a bed and breakfast just got their hands slapped for canceling a reservation when they found out the couple was gay. All the above said their religion was their reasoning for refusing service to gay people. I have to admit if religion is an excuse to turn people away from your business i'm not exatcly heart broken if religion is a reason a group is being turned away. I don't like it but i can't exactly be outraged that they get what they give. As for this group should the same advice be given that's been repeated to me " why would you want to rent( or do business with) a place from people who obviously don't want you there?" lol or the more recent one i just loved " they should have been smart enough to find a place they knew was friendly to their cause, so it's their fault"(again not my stance, just repeating what's been said by those who tend to share the view point of the group that's getting pushed around in the story)

[genuine]

Matthew 19:4-6 - And He answered and said to them, "Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning 'made them male and female,' and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate."

[prisonchaplain]

depends on how one defines recent. I usually find a story every few weeks or so.

People keep bringing up the photographer that got sued for refusing to shoot a gay wedding, the cake maker who got sued for not doing a wedding cake, the church that got sued for not letting a gay couple get married on land they leased from the government. Up here a bed and breakfast just got their hands slapped for canceling a reservation when they found out the couple was gay. All the above said their religion was their reasoning for refusing service to gay people. I have to admit if religion is an excuse to turn people away from your business i'm not exatcly heart broken if religion is a reason a group is being turned away. I don't like it but i can't exactly be outraged that they get what they give. As for this group should the same advice be given that's been repeated to me " why would you want to rent( or do business with) a place from people who obviously don't want you there?" lol or the more recent one i just loved " they should have been smart enough to find a place they knew was friendly to their cause, so it's their fault"(again not my stance, just repeating what's been said by those who tend to share the view point of the group that's getting pushed around in the story)

There is a strand of Christianity that believes in "separation from what is unholy." These are known as fundamentalists. They also stay away from drinkers, smokers, adulterers, watchers of immoral entertainment, etc. They often avoid movie theaters, bars for sure, even bowling alleys (lots of drinkers there). Most Christians believe we should engage the culture rather than rejecting it. However, some, who think themselves above such thinking, apply it when they discover homosexuality. I agree with you that Jesus would have dined with LGBT folk.

On the other hand, I am sympathetic to churches and religious organizations that wish to separate from supporting gay unions or gay pride events. In your example, the church was using government leased land. Unless they got exclusive use rights, I'd say the church should abide by government rules. If they got exclusive rights, and the community clearly identifies the land as being where the church is, then I remain sympathetic to them.

And the shoe is on the other foot. Now Chicago and Boston are targeting Chik-a-fil for a zoning ban, specifically because of the restaurant's public opposition to LGBT marriages.

The culture war is getting ugly...4 sure!

[Vort]

I have to admit if religion is an excuse to turn people away from your business i'm not exatcly heart broken if religion is a reason a group is being turned away.

So you are ignoring the difference between private enterprise and public (aka governmental) service. Or perhaps you're just saying, "Okay, I acknowledge it's wrong, but I don't feel bad for them."

So, then, may I assume that you won't hold it against a religious person for not feeling bad for the homosexual who gets denied a government service or rental of a government facility because of his/her sexual preference? When the religious person says, "Look, I acknowledge it's wrong, but I just don't feel any sympathy for the homosexual and can't get worked up about the injustice of the situation", you'll be perfectly okay with that attitude. Right?

[annewandering]

Anne...I agree that it is a freedom of religion issue. However, it is also a freedom of speech issue. The Superintendent is trying to punish the church for speech. The pastor even reached out to the homosexual community, asking them to join him in opposing government supression of free speech.

Yes. Ok I agree it is both but the freedom of religion is the more pertinent and legally strong. They have picked out one religion, although it wouldnt make any difference if they picked all but one, which makes it government favoring or unfavoring a religion. This, they absolutely can not do.

[prisonchaplain]

I hope I am wrong...but I get the impression that some segments of LGBT have come to believe that it is them or us. They have allies in the atheist "free thinker" groups. So, a few have gone on the offensive. They attack Christianity as outdated, mean and false. I seem to remember that NYC was considering evicting all churches from the use of schools--arguing that allowing them--even for rent--was somehow a violation of the separation of church and state.

Federal Court Rules New York City Can Ban Schools From Churches | Fox News

Gay Rights & Marriage vs. Religious Liberty: Does Equality for Gays Threaten Religious Liberty in America?

Dan Savage denies bashing Christianity, parent calls Savage a 'pig' - Spokane Conservative | Examiner.com

(This last one has the author saying that when Christians approach LGBT with "Love the sinner hate the sin" they feel insulted. If so, is any mutual understanding possible?)

Edited July 26, 2012 by prisonchaplain

[annewandering]

I hope I am wrong...but I get the impression that some segments of LGBT have come to believe that it is them or us. They have allies in the atheist "free thinker" groups. So, a few have gone on the offensive. They attack Christianity as outdated, mean and false. I seem to remember that NYC was considering evicting all churches from the use of schools--arguing that allowing them--even for rent--was somehow a violation of the separation of church and state.

Federal Court Rules New York City Can Ban Schools From Churches | Fox News

Gay Rights & Marriage vs. Religious Liberty: Does Equality for Gays Threaten Religious Liberty in America?

Dan Savage denies bashing Christianity, parent calls Savage a 'pig' - Spokane Conservative | Examiner.com

(This last one has the author saying that when Christians approach LGBT with "Love the sinner hate the sin" they feel insulted. If so, is any mutual understanding possible?)

They do attack religion. Since it is in their way I suppose. I see this very dramatically on facebook frequently. In fact I have had people unfriend me because I refuse to follow the us vs. them 'law'. its funny because I really am very liberal minded and believe very much in free agency and love the person messing up but not his sins. A very large group of people will not accept that it is possible. Pretty sad.

[Soulsearcher]

So you are ignoring the difference between private enterprise and public (aka governmental) service. Or perhaps you're just saying, "Okay, I acknowledge it's wrong, but I don't feel bad for them."

So, then, may I assume that you won't hold it against a religious person for not feeling bad for the homosexual who gets denied a government service or rental of a government facility because of his/her sexual preference? When the religious person says, "Look, I acknowledge it's wrong, but I just don't feel any sympathy for the homosexual and can't get worked up about the injustice of the situation", you'll be perfectly okay with that attitude. Right?

I can't get worked up about it because it's what the christians have been doing and claiming it's the right thing to do. Deny service to gay because it's what their religion says. Now if there weren't numerous examples of this I'd surely feel a great deal more about the injustice going on in the story PC posted, but if they are getting what they give then no, i see it as you get what you give.

[Soulsearcher]

I hope I am wrong...but I get the impression that some segments of LGBT have come to believe that it is them or us. They have allies in the atheist "free thinker" groups. So, a few have gone on the offensive. They attack Christianity as outdated, mean and false. I seem to remember that NYC was considering evicting all churches from the use of schools--arguing that allowing them--even for rent--was somehow a violation of the separation of church and state.

Federal Court Rules New York City Can Ban Schools From Churches | Fox News

Gay Rights & Marriage vs. Religious Liberty: Does Equality for Gays Threaten Religious Liberty in America?

Dan Savage denies bashing Christianity, parent calls Savage a 'pig' - Spokane Conservative | Examiner.com

(This last one has the author saying that when Christians approach LGBT with "Love the sinner hate the sin" they feel insulted. If so, is any mutual understanding possible?)

Sadly you are right, there are groups on both side that think it's us vs them. i don't like it and don't think it needs to be this way ,but both sides have become so adept at bickering that i really don't see it getting any better. For every article you quoted there's an equal of some congregation or pastor coming up with electric fences to segregate gays and hoping they'll die out because they can't reproduce or inspire new gays or suggesting beating a child you might think is acting gay or applauding a child singing " no homos going to heaven". Looking at news from africa about how american evangelists are pushing anti homosexual laws and hearing some of them lament how there's no such laws in america. One can't be overly surprised that at some point it went from live and let live to throwing stones. Look at the variety of comments here, very strong comments intended to demean and offend and others that actually show the idea of love the sinner hate the sin. With neither side seeming willing to back away from the tension or give an inch it's only going to move further into conflict and I'm not sure i like where that goes. I will say for the most part most gays i know or talk to in canada have said they would be to scared to live in the US due to the power of the Christians, they feel all it takes is one republican win and the gays as a whole are going to be targets and have to run back to the shadows again.

[Soulsearcher]

There is a strand of Christianity that believes in "separation from what is unholy." These are known as fundamentalists. They also stay away from drinkers, smokers, adulterers, watchers of immoral entertainment, etc. They often avoid movie theaters, bars for sure, even bowling alleys (lots of drinkers there). Most Christians believe we should engage the culture rather than rejecting it. However, some, who think themselves above such thinking, apply it when they discover homosexuality. I agree with you that Jesus would have dined with LGBT folk.

On the other hand, I am sympathetic to churches and religious organizations that wish to separate from supporting gay unions or gay pride events. In your example, the church was using government leased land. Unless they got exclusive use rights, I'd say the church should abide by government rules. If they got exclusive rights, and the community clearly identifies the land as being where the church is, then I remain sympathetic to them.

And the shoe is on the other foot. Now Chicago and Boston are targeting Chik-a-fil for a zoning ban, specifically because of the restaurant's public opposition to LGBT marriages.

The culture war is getting ugly...4 sure!

And you and i have always agreed where the line is for churches and religious organizations. I've always wanted them protected, it's when you enter into the private sector that i have issues. As with the church they had leased lands with a specific requirement they were open to the full public, the breached that and got their hands slapped. If it had been their land free and clear i would have sided with them right away.

The issue i do take is rarely do we see the same give and take, protect the churches is say, and yet do we see the same full consideration from the religious side. It has by far gotten better, i will not deny that, but as my point here has been give the same consideration you want, act the way you want others to act towards you. SET THE EXAMPLE. For as much as the gay rights movement learned a lot from the civil rights movement, do you really think they didn't get a good lesson in how to do things from the churches and religious right?

I'm torn about the chicken thing. Again I might have a bit more sympathy if one million moms wasn't shouting boycott every 5 minutes. There's no surprise what so ever about the company's stance, heck i'm from out of the country and i knew enough to know what it would be. I know one of the locations being banned was a college campus and the students made it clear they were unwanted due to their views, in boston though i don't like what happened, i don't like the city directly interfering with a private business just over this. I'd have no issue with them putting out a press release but i do think it's wrong to ban them.( yes i see a big difference between the city government and a school board). For the most part I'm fine if people want to boycott but i think zoning for business should be decided on the merits.

[prisonchaplain]

I can't get worked up about it because it's what the christians have been doing and claiming it's the right thing to do. Deny service to gay because it's what their religion says. Now if there weren't numerous examples of this I'd surely feel a great deal more about the injustice going on in the story PC posted, but if they are getting what they give then no, i see it as you get what you give.

Isn't it almost always the case that THEY are getting what SOMEONE ELSE gave? I wouldn't hold you responsible for Dan Savage's antics, why should this church be penalized because of a few Christian Pharisees? I understand that your outrage is underwhelming, but if so, the cycle never stops and the haters on both sides win. My theology says that's a win for the Devil too.

[Soulsearcher]

Isn't it almost always the case that THEY are getting what SOMEONE ELSE gave? I wouldn't hold you responsible for Dan Savage's antics, why should this church be penalized because of a few Christian Pharisees? I understand that your outrage is underwhelming, but if so, the cycle never stops and the haters on both sides win. My theology says that's a win for the Devil too.

I guess i can answer that by looking at the responses to what i've posted on this topic. instead of some people saying, you know what, i get what you're saying, i don't fully agree but i do see that both sides are doing the same thing and probably could find a better way rather than building up the cycle, they have instead dismissed the fact that maybe just maybe there's been actions with the wrong spirit taken on their side as well and nitpicked. even saying i don't agree with the action taken and proclaiming i do want to see religious protections, what have responses to me been? No offense but Christians keep claiming the high moral ground but some seem to be striving for it by stepping on others and that's really why i can't be more outraged. It's like the case of two puppies in the pound waiting to be adopted. The cute cuddly loving one tends to be saved while the snarling biting one tends to be left behind. When someone says they love me but every word is dripping with condemnation or condescending tones or amused sarcasm, i can't really be outraged when they aren't treated "nicely" Turning the other cheek is nice but at some point i just gave up giving what the morally superior couldn't muster. I agree it won't fix things, but there are times i'm tired of feeling like the only one who was trying while being told it was my job to change while others refused.

[prisonchaplain]

Soul, I appreciate you fleshing this out for me. That this is an election year probably ramps up the extremes on both sides. Hopefully next year the peacemakers will gain some headway.