Am I A Loser?

[Guest jackvance99]

i live in utah

i am 34 yrs old

i have never been married

i have only ever dated two girls (one for 6 mths and another for 1 yr - and she was over 6 yrs ago)

i'm not ugly, deformed or schizophrenic (so no excuse there)

i have a marketable graduate degree (law) and an MBA, and yet . .

i have been on welfare twice

i am currently unemployed in what they say is utah's best employment market ever (yesterday's salt lake tribune)

i have been unemployed for going on 5 months now

i have never made over $30,000 per year

last year i made only $18,000

the year before i made about $24,000

this year i'll end up making about $11,000

i have never owned a home

i rent my friends small basement apartment from him and wife for $300 a month (it's all i can afford)

i am over $10,000 in credit card debt - used to pay living expenses while unemployed

i have no friends

i play no sports and don't even have the natural ability to even try and hold my own

i have no musical talents

my questions is: is it objectively okay to carry on like this? why has this happened to me? could it scare other people off of wanting to be my friend or girlfriend? i read the BOM twice through in the past 5 months but nothing has changed - i talk to people i meet a lot - i go to church etc - just always seem to bump into God's great big and invisible barrier of silence. sometimes i feel like i should experiment in wicca/satanism/spiritualism/demon summoning etc. just top get some response from the invisible world.

[BenRaines]

Do you take a bath every day and brush your teeth?

Where did you get your MBA from?

I didn't complete second year of college and earn significantly more that that after losing a job at 50 and having to start all over again.

A law degree and earning $18K. Hmmm something doesn't smell right here.

How can we help you?

You should be able to do something about your work situation.

My daughter is in school and makes $12 an hour. Another is a dental assistant after a nine month course and makes $30K.

Are you waiting for work to come to you? I have looked at Monster.com and Hotjobs.com and there are an abuncance of jobs in Utah area. Maybe you need to relocate and get a new start. I did see the article yesterday that Utah unemployment was at 2.5% which is considered full employment.

Ben Raines

[rosie321]

is it objectively okay to carry on like this?

in our society anything goes and is ok.

why has this happened to me?

Do you ask yourself this question often?

could it scare other people off of wanting to be my friend or girlfriend?

Maybe

i read the BOM twice through in the past 5 months but nothing has changed

It will not make everything magically perfect. The Lord moves in His time. Keep taking steps and trust in Him. Keep your eyes open for things you might be missing.

i talk to people i meet a lot - i go to church etc - just always seem to bump into God's great big and invisible barrier of silence. sometimes i feel like i should experiment in wicca/satanism/spiritualism/demon summoning etc. just top get some response from the invisible world.

Silence is out there. There are a lot of deaf people too. Keep trying to communicate.

Some thoughts I have for you-

I get the sense you are shy. Especially as a lawyer people want a tiger and someone that can express themself well. Maybe work on that shyness or your communication abilities. Seek opportunities that will help draw you out. There are things out there that cost little or none but would be a great experience for you.

What jobs are you going for? If the job market is tight for what you are looking for then it may be hard. Are you willing to try different things? To build on certain skills that you might be lacking in that may be holding you back?

Do you volunteer? With your law degree I'm sure there are people that could use some legal help. Heck I could even use some at times with the myriad of paperwork I face. Volunteering, if nothing else, would help use your skills and renew your spirit. It may even get some female heads turning your way.

Get your your life under control before you conciously worry about a girlfriend/wife. If you're not happy with you how do you expect someone else to be drawn to you? You don't have to make millions or be in some hot job to find the love of a good woman. Honesty and integrity do go a long way.

Have you considered moving? Maybe a change of scenery is what you need. Maybe Utah is not the place for you.

The worst thing you can do is have a pity party. Keep pressing forward. Take in all the positive , enduring to the end messages you can find. Use peoples comments for your growth.

My prayers are with you.

[Gwen]

sorry if this sounds harsh, but stop making excuses. get up and do something. get a job, any job, fast food, grocery store, pizza delivery, whatever. get an income, do something, and when you do you will start to feel better about yourself, and when you start to feel better about yourself you start meeting ppl. it's a cycle, get in it. don't worry about a wife at this point, because yes when i was in the ysa program the things you listed would be shiney red flags. where you live, renting a basement appt. that's fine. welfare, the credit card debt, and the joblessness, that's not cool.

we make things happen in life, things don't come to us. what are you going to make happen? i heard someone talking about intentions one time; there was the woman complaining about how her life turned out and she said "i didn't intend for this to happen". the question was posed "what did you intend to have happen?" i loved it. that is the question, did you consider the impact of your choices today on your tomarrow? do you have an intention and do you have goals to make that happen? yes bad things sometimes happen. yes sometimes life throws things at us. but when we are honest with ourselves we find that a large part of the problem could have been changed, altered, or even stopped if we had made some different choices.

my point i guess is we make things happen in life. if it's not working where you are then go where you need to, do what you need to do. make life happen for you. i read once that "you do not discover new lands without consenting to loose sight of the shore for a very long time." if you don't like the beach your on then discover new lands.

i really do wish you the best of luck, or should i say the courage for action.

[shanstress70]

I remember your username, Jack Vance, but looked and the site said you joined yesterday. I could've sworn it was this board that I've seen you posting. Have you been here before? It seems like you posted the same types of issues... a law grad with no money, no job, no girl. Just trying to find out why it said you joined yesterday. Perhaps your account was deleted and you were able to re-create the name. Or I guess it's possible I've seen you at another forum.

It seems that you are playing the victim. Nothing is happening TO you. You have to make your circumstances. If you truly have that degree, maybe it wasn't your calling. If you're unemployed, your state will probably pay for you to go to school. If not, you can probably get grants... you could at least get loans. Choose a 2 year degree (X-ray technician, electrician, auto mechanic, computers...) and get busy! Life doesn't HAPPEN TO YOU.

And yes, living in a basement and making $11,000 a year when you have a law degree would scare this girl away! But I'm sure that if you were a Satanist, that would reverse all that and you'd get all the girls.

Satanism... it's where it's at!

[Fiannan]

Do you live in some part of Utah's "outer Mongolia" like Jenson? If so, move to Salt Lake and look for work.

I have to admit that if you are 34 and never married that sends up red flags (gay?momma's boy? damaged goods, etc.) but doesn't have to. Either go onto an online dating service or get active in things that allow you to meet people.

Try getting into a physical activity that isn't sports oriented like biking or running or rafting or swimming. I detest team sports myself.

[pushka]

Shanstress, I recognised this user name too, and I was a little unsure whether it was from LDStalk or not...Now I'm certain it must be...the poster was very depressed and suicidal, beginning of last year I think?

[Jason]

I remember you Jack. Same old story, new year huh?

Change comes from within you buddy.

[StrawberryFields]

I remember you Jack. Same old story, new year huh?

Change comes from within you buddy.

I was just going to post that too Jason. I remember him too.

He was jackvance88 (banned)

now jackvance99 :hum:

[miztrniceguy]

you need to do something to make things happen.

law degree and 18k....hmmmm....i have no degree and made 50k last year as a retail manager, which i gave up to work less.

i didnt meet and marry my wife until i was 36.

[Dr T]

Fresh out of law school does not mean instant wealth. The available opportunities can be diverse with a law degree. What part of law did you really enjoy? What experiences have you had to make yourself marketable? What community needs/niche is there for you were you live? What's needed? How can you gain experience doing that (if you don't have those skills)? I'd be looking into those kinds of questions.

Dr. T

[isaiah28]

Welcome to Utah!

Where the women consistently swoon over jerks

And secretly get laid by them

While nice guys are left to ponder the perks

Of being alone over the weekend

Don't believe me you say?

Behold the hardened murderer locked in jail

How women still flock his way

As nice guys try so hard but fail

O the great effort put forth in a date

Squandered upon a woman so vain

Who's too ignorant to appreciate

And sells her soul for "fun" again

Welcome to Utah!

Where college grads earn $6.50/hr

And multi-level marketing is so prevalent

Thanks to corporate crime still in power

And college grads then become desperate

O the joy of twisting statistics

To make everything look A-O-K

To keep all in their ignorance

So those in power continue their way

Attention to you Joe and Chris Cannon

Greased by Abramoff and Farmers Insurance

Ye cannot serve both God and Mammon

And above your head falls the sword of justice

Welcome to Utah!

PS- Hunt vigorously for jobs. If the job market blows in your area - MOVE! If the dating market blows in your area - MOVE! Don't stay stuck in a rut -- ponder and pray on the best direction to get out of the rut. After 5 years of dating in Utah I found nothing but women labelling me "too nice." Once I moved to California, things improved exponentially. I'm now married to the woman of my dreams. :)

PPS- (stating the obvious) Remember hygeine and be social. It's not what you know, but who you know.

[Guest jackvance99]

yeh, that was me - i was banned for making really crude racist, sexist, homophobic and expletive comments.

the thing is, the job market here is great, i do live in salt lake, there are literally thousands of single women here, and so on. i just don't know how and where to meet people. my LDS ward is full of old people and marrieds. i network plenty to find jobs, have told lawyer freinds that i'm looking, respond well to job ads, but nothing has come of it in 2 yrs of looking. i have applied for starbucks jobs etc, but they won't hire a qualified lawyer. i then made up a fake resume showing i never went to college or law school, but i felt that was lying. i would move, but i don't have the money to pay to take another state bar exam. i cannot get loans either because of my poor credit rating. i try and keep active, but i cannot find any sportsteams to play on. my big thing is soccer, but everything is oriented to school age kids. i can't afford psychiatry which is what i think i need, and the ward has told me it will not pay for it considering i'm a qualified lawyer who should be able to at least support himself considering he doesn't have any dependents. i spoke to the bishop about marriage and he said how do i think i'm going to be able to support a family when i can't even take care of myself.

the odd thing is - as a kid and young person i was always a hard worker, put in a lot at school, got great grades, have always been very frugal, just very much a star kid. i served a great mission and begged the president to allow me to stay another 6 mths. i ended up doing 27 months.

i don't understand. what has happened to my mind?

[StarGazer]

yeh, that was me - i was banned for making really crude racist, sexist, homophobic and expletive comments.

the thing is, the job market here is great, i do live in salt lake, there are literally thousands of single women here, and so on. i just don't know how and where to meet people. my LDS ward is full of old people and marrieds. i network plenty to find jobs, have told lawyer freinds that i'm looking, respond well to job ads, but nothing has come of it in 2 yrs of looking. i have applied for starbucks jobs etc, but they won't hire a qualified lawyer. i then made up a fake resume showing i never went to college or law school, but i felt that was lying. i would move, but i don't have the money to pay to take another state bar exam. i cannot get loans either because of my poor credit rating. i try and keep active, but i cannot find any sportsteams to play on. my big thing is soccer, but everything is oriented to school age kids. i can't afford psychiatry which is what i think i need, and the ward has told me it will not pay for it considering i'm a qualified lawyer who should be able to at least support himself considering he doesn't have any dependents. i spoke to the bishop about marriage and he said how do i think i'm going to be able to support a family when i can't even take care of myself.

i don't understand. what has happened to my mind?

Frankly, Jack, comments like that are an instant turnoff to most girls of a dateable caliber. A good start would be to clean up your act, or at least your language.

Also, after reading that middle paragraph, I'd like to quote my superviser's favorite phrase- "the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, but expecting different results". It seems to me like you're stuck in a personal rut dug with your own excuses, and that, my friend, is a major red flag to a single gal. Reading that makes it seem like you think the world's against you and that everyone's trying to keep you down...you couldn't pay me to sit through a dinner listening to all of that, let alone maintain a relationship based on that foundation.

Sorry if that sounds really harsh, but it's a girl's perspective...maybe it will help.

[Fiannan]

After 5 years of dating in Utah I found nothing but women labelling me "too nice." Once I moved to California, things improved exponentially. I'm now married to the woman of my dreams.

Perhaps this is why polygamist men in Utah are never in short supply of women to marry. I have always marvelled at why mollies are drawn to guys who are dangerous. My son has been dating a non member Swede for 8 months. Finally I asked her if she wanted to go to church and she was enthusiastic about attending (most Swedish women with the exception of Muslims have never attended a religious service). My son puts up a chauvanistic testosterone-governed image that reminds me of Turkish men I encountered while in Istanbul. Whether my son is in America, Sweden or when he visited Russia and Germany females flock to him.

My guess is that women want some variety. Your typical Mollie probably has repressed desires coupled with the desire to be a bit wild at times -- kind of like when you take a Swede out of Sweden (they generally stop being part of The Borg Collective and open up and are fun to be with). This doesn't mean you have to be someone who violates the standards, but I will say that a collegue at work who knows my particular humor and non-conformist attitudes asked in a frustrated manner why all the single women at work flirt with me and want to always socialize. Well, if you refuse to be squeezed into a particular mold women find that fascinating. It's a lesson I am trying to teach the rest of my sons.

[StrawberryFields]

Perhaps this is why polygamist men in Utah are never in short supply of women to marry. I have always marvelled at why mollies are drawn to guys who are dangerous.

First, do you think that polygamist even have a chance with women who are outside of the compound?

Second, I am not so sure that it is just mollies who are drawn to guys who are a bit dangerous. It would take a very strange woman who would be interested in a man who didn't have moments of the 'bad guy' in them IMHO.

[prisonchaplain]

It would take a very strange woman who would be interested in a man who didn't have moments of the 'bad guy' in them IMHO.

Now wait a minute! I don't think my wife has a strange bone in her body.

[Nic]

You don't sound like a loser but you do sound depressed. I don't think a lot of people on this board understand depression b/c someone who is severly depressed does not feel like doing much of ANYTHING! To tell Jackvance to get out there and find a job isn't going to help if he is suffereing ffrom depression. First things first Jack, you need help .. your Bishop should help you get counselling, regardless of if you have a degree or not. Your education isn't doing much to help if you are too depressed to do anything about it.

Once you work on your mental issues, and are able to go out and find meaningful employment and get your life in order, then you can worry about finding a girlfriend. I don't think that should be a priority for you right now as you have more important things to deal with first. Take it one day at a time and try to keep a positive outlook on life. The Adversary is able to get into your thoughts so much easier when you look upon things negatively and it is him who makes you get more and more depressed and unmotivated, and eventually thinking suicidal thoughts and possibly acting them out. This is serious and you need help before you get to that point, if you aren't there already.

Good luck to you and God bless.

[StrawberryFields]

<div class='quotemain'>

It would take a very strange woman who would be interested in a man who didn't have moments of the 'bad guy' in them IMHO.

Now wait a minute! I don't think my wife has a strange bone in her body.

Really now?

Can you tell me that you don't have moments when you will put on your mask and play 'Zorro'?

Now, maybe I am wrong....maybe Robin Hood is more your style.

[prisonchaplain]

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

It would take a very strange woman who would be interested in a man who didn't have moments of the 'bad guy' in them IMHO.

Now wait a minute! I don't think my wife has a strange bone in her body.

Really now?

Can you tell me that you don't have moments when you will put on your mask and play 'Zorro'?

Now, maybe I am wrong....maybe Robin Hood is more your style.

(Spoken in absolute government monotone): I can neither confirm nor deny those assertions.

[StrawberryFields]

(Spoken in absolute government monotone): I can neither confirm nor deny those assertions.

[isaiah28]

Jack, it appears you have a large set of trials and are in need of counseling. I do not envy your burden, and I understand your valid frustrations. Regarding your Bishop ... no one should ever deny counseling to one who *needs* counseling.

Appeal.

I imagine you know the process ... speak with the Stake President. If still no help, appeal again, etc..

I also understand your ostracized situation in your ward. This has happened to me in a couple wards in my lifetime so far. Single 30+s do tend to be looked down upon among family wards, and we know this ought not to be.

The next steps in your life are to seek counseling and seek friends. Making friends helps both your social situation and job opportunities. It's not what you know, it's who you know. As has been stated, once a decent job is secured, then is the time to date. For now ... friends. Your friends don't have to be LDS. Don't worry about marriage, first thing's first ... to stabilize your situation emotionally, socially, and financially.

Pray to the Lord that He will help you find good friends. I have faith He will help you, but the Lord requires us to do our part. :)

[Fiannan]

<div class='quotemain'>

Perhaps this is why polygamist men in Utah are never in short supply of women to marry. I have always marvelled at why mollies are drawn to guys who are dangerous.

First, do you think that polygamist even have a chance with women who are outside of the compound?

Second, I am not so sure that it is just mollies who are drawn to guys who are a bit dangerous. It would take a very strange woman who would be interested in a man who didn't have moments of the 'bad guy' in them IMHO.

A friend of mine mentioned that the girl in her young women's group that was always the leader, highly intelligent and basically your "future stake president's wife" got involved with a polygamist and married him while in college. No, your Jeffers type guys generally marry within the compound but where do you think your "I've studied polygamy and I'm convinced I should take another wife" polygamists get those additional wives? These "freelance polygamists" either secretly live the lifestyle while being fully active in the regular LDS Church or just go it alone with maybe a loose network that still follows the LDS Church 100%(except in this manner), but might fail to attend for fear of being caught. This is where Utah or whereever young women end up marrying into multiple wife lifestyles.

As for Mollies, I had an anti-Molly discernment (radar) when I was dating. I found that there are many women out there who are 100% devout but are out of the mainstream. That's the area I would prefer to date in if I were single. I find it much more honest than to try being holier than thou but then go absolutely crazy (if you know what I mean) on a date and then (even if you don't let it get out of hand) they feel all guilty over it.

[StrawberryFields]

A friend of mine mentioned that the girl in her young women's group that was always the leader, highly intelligent and basically your "future stake president's wife" got involved with a polygamist and married him while in college. No, your Jeffers type guys generally marry within the compound but where do you think your "I've studied polygamy and I'm convinced I should take another wife" polygamists get those additional wives? These "freelance polygamists" either secretly live the lifestyle while being fully active in the regular LDS Church or just go it alone with maybe a loose network that still follows the LDS Church 100%(except in this manner), but might fail to attend for fear of being caught. This is where Utah or whereever young women end up marrying into multiple wife lifestyles.

As for Mollies, I had an anti-Molly discernment (radar) when I was dating. I found that there are many women out there who are 100% devout but are out of the mainstream. That's the area I would prefer to date in if I were single. I find it much more honest than to try being holier than thou but then go absolutely crazy (if you know what I mean) on a date and then (even if you don't let it get out of hand) they feel all guilty over it.

I had not thought about the 'freelance polygamist'.

Currently, I am living very close to Hilldale/Colorado City and I see polygamists almost daily. To me and my neighbors they don't appear as the 'good dangerous', they appear as lost and confused. The woman almost walk with their heads down and don't speak to 'strangers'. Last weekend was the first time we have ever heard them speak us. We were in Costco and as my husband turned the corner, the man said that at the end of the aisle they were handing out cheesecake. I was floored, we and his wife looked at me and giggled as they ate the cheesecake. Later we commented that that was the first time that we have ever had someone speak to us from the polygamist community. Anyway, I can't imagine who would ever want to be apart of that unless they had become friendly before knowing that they were polygamists.

Next, I am trying to think of someone who is like the molly you describe...nope, can't think of any. I have grown up in Ut. and there were those who were totally to the iron rod and those who were a little less rigid.

[Guest Monica]

Jack,

Your problem isnt uncommon to those who have completed higher education. You are over qualified for most jobs, yet no one will give you the chance to get the work expierience you need. I suggest, you go into business for yourself. Do what you love the most and use the skills you have aquired to do that. For example, lets say, you like racing cars. Start a racing car tshirt business and get a website. Sell these items at local swap meets and flea markets. Use your law background to navigate thru the trademark and licencing laws.

God bless you in your endeavors!