What are our rights when being "searched"?

[skalenfehl]

Open carry people give me a couple of different reasons for arming themselves...

Thank you for the clarification. I agree with you that many open carry to become ideologues, as you put it. And I really appreciate that you are someone who is discreet about carrying. I would rather sit in a theater full of discreet carriers than with one open carrier.

[annewandering]

Thank you for the clarification. I agree with you that many open carry to become ideologues, as you put it. And I really appreciate that you are someone who is discreet about carrying. I would rather sit in a theater full of discreet carriers than with one open carrier.

I absolutely would not. If someone around me has a gun I want to be able to see it and know its there.

The other day my daughter went to a movie in Logan. A guy was crossing seats in front of her and when he passed by, a hidden gun brushed her. It did NOT give her comfort to know someone in the theater was hiding a gun. It would not give me comfort either.

This hiding guns while carrying has always bothered me. My mom used to carry a gun when she was walking around the ranch. She had a bandolero of bullets around her shoulder and her pistol in a holster around her waist. It was probably a disconcerting sight to trespassers but you can guarantee they knew she was armed. For her it was convenience but she felt no need to hide anything.

That said I see no reason to carry guns at all in most situations. Certainly not in town. Its just stupid and asking for trouble.

[Guest]

That said I see no reason to carry guns at all in most situations. Certainly not in town. Its just stupid and asking for trouble.

Why? Are you safer in town than out of it?

[skalenfehl]

I absolutely would not...That said I see no reason to carry guns at all in most situations. Certainly not in town. Its just stupid and asking for trouble.

With respect to you and your daughter, the people in this internet cafe would highly disagree:

Concealed Gun Holder Stop's Robbery in FL Internet Cafe - YouTube

If only this elderly man or someone like him or even many like him were sitting in the Aurora, Colorado theater when James Holmes opened fire on the audience, many lives might have been saved.

[annewandering]

With respect to you and your daughter, the people in this internet cafe would highly disagree:

Concealed Gun Holder Stop's Robbery in FL Internet Cafe - YouTube

If only this elderly man or someone like him or even many like him were sitting in the Aurora, Colorado theater when James Holmes opened fire on the audience, many lives might have been saved.

More likely many more would have died. Having a gun does not make you a superman. This is one of the sickest ideas going the internet circuits lately and it is pure dangerous.

[annewandering]

Why? Are you safer in town than out of it?

I am safer if people leave their guns home. You do know the 1st Article of Faith is NOT the right and obligation to carry guns?

[Dravin]

Oh! Is it time to play the ask irrelevant rhetorical questions game?

[annewandering]

Oh! Is it time to play the ask irrelevant rhetorical questions game?

Maybe some of us dont consider them irrelevant? Rhetorical is intended to encourage, in this case, in my own rhetorical question, thought as to motivation. I can not presume to know another's motivation but sometimes I wonder if knowing wouldnt clarify the discussion.

[Dravin]

Maybe some of us dont consider them irrelevant?

What is the square root of blue?

[Vort]

What is the square root of blue?

Yes.

[annewandering]

What is the square root of blue?

Shouldnt you have asked about green instead?

[Guest]

I am safer if people leave their guns home. You do know the 1st Article of Faith is NOT the right and obligation to carry guns?

Why would the 1st Article of Faith of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have anything to do with anything other than the belief in God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost?

Sure, everybody is safer if people leave their guns at home. Everybody is safer too if there were no people intent on killing anybody. But, since we're still in this fallen state of man, you do what you have to do and not just dig a hole and put your head in it.

[MarginOfError]

With respect to you and your daughter, the people in this internet cafe would highly disagree:

Concealed Gun Holder Stop's Robbery in FL Internet Cafe - YouTube

If only this elderly man or someone like him or even many like him were sitting in the Aurora, Colorado theater when James Holmes opened fire on the audience, many lives might have been saved.

My dad had a sheriff's deputy come do a security evaluation at his work place a while ago. The deputy showed up out of uniform, walked through the front door and placed little green stickers everywhere he was able to go. He managed to obtain a visitor's pass from an unoccupied desk, passwords to computers that were written on papers left in drawers, and walked into almost every room in the building without being stopped.

When my dad reviewed the results with some other employees, he brought up the scenario of a shooter coming in and opening fire. A couple of gun enthusiasts said that in such a scenario, they would be quick to go out and get their guns out of their vehicles and come back in to hunt down the shooter.

The problems with this scenario:

1. The company employs several hundred people that don't know who each other are. So now you have several people with guns going into a building to shoot the guy with the gun. See where this is going?

2. In the event of a shooter, the police are called. The police enter the building with their weapons drawn ready to shoot the guy with the gun if there is any threatening motion (like a quick turn toward the officer while holding a gun).

They had to stress really hard that going out to get your weapon put multiple people at risk of being injured and made it significantly more difficult for the police to manage the crisis when they showed up.

In a theater situation, like in Aurora, I think the scenarios are even more terrifying. A guy walks into a dark theater and opens fire. In all the commotion of people getting up and running for cover, five people with concealed weapons draw and start looking for the guy with his weapon drawn. Now you've got people shooting through a crowd at the "guy with the gun." That doesn't make me feel any safer at all.

[Guest]

Yes.

You disappoint me Vort. The answer is, of course, pi!

[annewandering]

Why would the 1st Article of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have anything to do with anything other than the belief in God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost?

Sure, everybody is safer if people leave their guns at home. Everybody is safer too if there were no people intent on killing anybody. But, since we're still in this fallen state of man, you do what you have to do.

just dont do it to people who dont want your guns around them. You arent asking the people around you if they feel the same way about it that you do. You just assume everyone is going to appreciate you putting them in more danger.

[Vort]

Shouldnt you have asked about green instead?

Green is not a creative color.

[annewandering]

Green is not a creative color.

Isnt it more than blue because it is created not born that way?!?!

[Bini]

I haven't read past page 2.

That said, I scanned through and saw mention of guns. I have no quarrel over gun ownership but my husband and I started talking about "overkill" versus "necessary". I can't think of a better way of wording that but hopefully someone will get my general gist. Does someone really need the right to carry a weapon (like an automatic) that can gun down masses at a time? Isn't that a bit much? Wouldn't a handgun or pistol or shotgun do the trick? I mean, we're not at war constantly on-guard. It was an interesting discussion we had. Seems like some kind of regulation regarding type of gun you're allowed to possess makes sense. Like I said, before anyone gets excited, I have no quarrel over gun ownership. Just speculating the issue in a different light.

/done hijacking my own thread.

[NeuroTypical]

If someone around me has a gun I want to be able to see it and know its there.

...

It did NOT give her comfort to know someone in the theater was hiding a gun. It would not give me comfort either.

...

just dont do it to people who dont want your guns around them.

I don't carry to make anyone around me comfortable or uncomfortable. So your issue here really isn't my problem. As long as I'm being responsible and safe, you won't have a clue. And unless you're staring at various areas of my body you shouldn't be staring at, you won't notice any bulges.

I forget which state you live in Anne, but I assume it's one with conceal carry laws. Tell me - since CC is exploding in popularity, and such sizeable percentages of populations legally carry when they can - what is it like to be you? I mean, just about any sizeable group of people in a public place is more and more likely to have a person or two legally carrying concealed. Do you wander around in discomfort or fear, wondering who is a good guy packing? Do you worry more about the good guys than the bad guys? I'm genuinely interested.

This hiding guns while carrying has always bothered me.

If it helps you feel better, many places have laws about 'brandishing', that can be applied to people carrying concealed that let someone else know (on purpose or accidentally) they are carrying. Help keep me and my CC buddies in their top game - tell a cop the next time you see an imprint, or someone brushes up against someone.

My mom used to carry a gun when she was walking around the ranch. She had a bandolero of bullets around her shoulder and her pistol in a holster around her waist. It was probably a disconcerting sight to trespassers but you can guarantee they knew she was armed. For her it was convenience but she felt no need to hide anything.

Yep. I have 5 acres, and often don't bother concealing when I'm out and about. I've gone shooting with my neighbors, so I'm not worrying them. I'd probably choose differently if I had a small yard with close neighbors.

That said I see no reason to carry guns at all in most situations.

Oh, me either. 99.999999999% of the situations I find myself in, require absolutely no gun at all. If I could, I'd raise it to 100%. But I can't, so I responsibly carry.

Tell you what - if you can discover a foolproof way to let folks know when they'll need a gun and when they won't, I'm sure most law-abiding carriers will stop carrying, except for when they know they'll need it. (Exceptions would include the open carry idealogues.)

Certainly not in town.

Yeah, because bad guys never try to kill innocent people in towns... A good guy with the ability to stop an active shooter would never be needed in a town... Really anne?

Its just stupid and asking for trouble.

Well, I agree when talking about stupid or careless or unpracticed carriers, or those who carry to prove some dumb point. They mess up and make the news. Someone drops it in the toilet, or it goes skittering across the floor when they stand up, or they reach for their car keys and pull it out instead and scare the crap out of everybody. Or they have to be cool and show their friends and end up shooting one of them. I have a zero tolerance attitude with knuckleheads with deadly weapons.

But the vast majority of us, as evidenced by the simple statistics, are not those people.

Edited August 10, 2012 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[Vort]

Isnt it more than blue because it is created not born that way?!?!

Let me try again.

[Guest]

just dont do it to people who dont want your guns around them. You arent asking the people around you if they feel the same way about it that you do. You just assume everyone is going to appreciate you putting them in more danger.

You know, my son is allergic to peanuts and he had been in the ER for it. Hence, he is extremely nervous when he sees somebody with a peanut. But no, he doesn't go around telling people to please do not carry peanuts in their purse.

You have the idea that having guns put people in more danger. Don't go to Florida. You'll see lots of rifles on gun racks on the back window of trucks here. Now, let's see... in Washington, DC, Chicago, IL, and NYC, NY... there's a gun ban. Great crimeless cities, right? Okay, D.C suburb in Virginia - gun control virtually non-existent, lots of people carry guns... a lot less crime than a few miles across the state line. So, what does that tell me? I'm safer in a place where people carry guns that is next to a place where people can't carry guns. Because... bad people always go for the easy targets. You know, bad people don't usually care to follow laws or Articles of Faiths... So yeay for Virginia.

[MarginOfError]

I haven't read past page 2.

That said, I scanned through and saw mention of guns. I have no quarrel over gun ownership but my husband and I started talking about "overkill" versus "necessary". I can't think of a better way of wording that but hopefully someone will get my general gist. Does someone really need the right to carry a weapon (like an automatic) that can gun down masses at a time? Isn't that a bit much? Wouldn't a handgun or pistol or shotgun do the trick? I mean, we're not at war constantly on-guard. It was an interesting discussion we had. Seems like some kind of regulation regarding type of gun you're allowed to possess makes sense. Like I said, before anyone gets excited, I have no quarrel over gun ownership. Just speculating the issue in a different light.

/done hijacking my own thread.

Good luck getting that one past the NRA. Any attempt to pass any restriction like that gets met with two rebuttals instantaneously

1) This is that start of a slippery slope

2) The purpose of the Second Amendment is so that we can rise up against the government if we need to.

For number 1) I question the validity of using the slippery slope argument as a reason against employing common sense.

For number 2) If the military decides it wants to go to war with the American people, the military will win. It is, afterall, the most powerful military force in the world*.

But, with as much money as the NRA pumps into reelection campaigns, it'll be a long time before you see a law that restricts any kind of gun ownership--even if it is just outlawing clips that hold 30 rounds.

* some might say that the same could have been said of Britain's military during the Revolutionary War. But let's keep in mind that the Brits were fighting two wars at the time on two continents and didn't have the benefit of things like air based weaponry and satellite imagery. The technological gap between the typical colonist and the British military was nothing compared to the technological gap between the typical American and the American military.

[annewandering]

Let me try again.

And you BELIEVE them?

[Vort]

And you BELIEVE them?

I am afraid to question them, or even to think too hard about what they say.

[Guest]

Well, I agree when talking about stupid or careless or unpracticed carriers, or those who carry to prove some dumb point. They mess up and make the news. Someone drops it in the toilet, or it goes skittering across the floor when they stand up, or they reach for their car keys and pull it out instead and scare the crap out of everybody. Or they have to be cool and show their friends and end up shooting one of them. I have a zero tolerance attitude with knuckleheads with deadly weapons.

But the vast majority of us, as evidenced by the simple statistics, are not those people.

Applause. Standing ovation.

Can we talk about ownership of pet snakes now?