what to do?

[Stampede]

Been quite a few years since I posted anything here but I am kind of at a loss.

My wife and I have been married for 5 years civilly and have been sealed for 3.5 years. We have 2 children and another one on the way (21 weeks pregnant). I Was inactive for a long time and we were living together when I was finally reactivated. She was raised catholic and joined the church 6 months after we got married. I know we both have testimonies and I do love her. She has told me in the past that she doesn't love me in the same way I love her which begs the question "Why did you agree to marry me then?" I don't have a straight answer from her. Anyways, we have had ups and down in our marriage but there have been quite a few red flags. She went to a therapist (tried to go to LDS family services but they never return phone calls and weren't very helpful) who diagnosed her with depression and put her on medication. Reasons: She has a hard time with her temper, she screams (and I mean screams loudly) at the children for whining when they are merely hungry or tired. She has dropped our oldest daughter (wasn't quite 3 at the time) from sitting height to the floor because she was whining. She has shaken our children a handful of times (she admitted to me after i came home from work because she knew it was wrong). So, after the medication things started to seem better. but recently things have started to get bad again. The screaming has started again, and when i tried to talk to her about it just now she screamed at me and swore telling me I never do anything to help her in the morning (this morning i woke up and gave the kids a bath and got them dressed before going to work). Yesterday she gave me a letter she had written to me about how she has been feeling with our marriage and the kids. In it she said she wanted to do more things together like Hiking. And this was uncharacteristic of her because she has always been a nature hater. before marriage she told me she hated camping and anything outdoors really because there are bugs everywhere (She is deathly afraid of spiders) so I asked her what changed (I was not opposed to it). Then, she seriously flipped out and instead of telling me said "well maybe we shouldn't do things together, you should just do your thing and I will do mine." In the same letter she also expressed her desire to stop having children which is fine. I know it is between us and the lord how many children to have and when but I do not feel like we are done at 3... not out of some sense of "we need more children because the gospel says this or that" but because I seriously feel like we have more children waiting for us... but maybe I am deluding myself?

Other red flags though that I have told her repeatedly to stop is that when we have arguments she resorts to vile language and hitting.

I NEVER yell or swear at her. I NEVER hit/slap her (except maybe a few slaps on the butt sometimes) even when we have arguments. Sure, I have felt like I wanted to but I just walk away and cool off.

I know I am not a perfect husband. I do try my best to help around the house and to help take care of the children sometimes I fall short, I know I could have done more here or there in hindsight.

I want to go to the bishop and talk to him about it. What to do???

[pam]

Go to the Bishop and talk to him about it.

[Guest]

OOOHH... I AM FAMILIAR WITH THIS.

Your wife is ME... But I have learned a lot of control before I started to have children. So, I have never ever done anything to hurt the kids... well, except for them witnessing the stuff I do to my husband.

Okay, your wife is PREGNANT... this is her hormones waging war inside her. I was pregnant twice - both times were the same. I have ZERO control. ZERO. over my anger issues. Okay, I am officially diagnosed manic depressive - but I don't put too much stock on what psychiatrists say... anyway, I went through it meds free. Anyway, I have anger management issues and when I was little, I threw a knife at my sister. That's just an example of how this is like your wife.

Okay, pregnancy wrecks havoc to a woman's chemical balance. In my case, everything I learned on how to deal with my issues went out the window. OUT. THE. WINDOW. The difference between you and me is that my husband knows about my issues before we got married - and has seen me in a rage scenario. So he was prepared to deal with it in the marriage. The second difference that I think we have is that your wife doesn't know herself. A psychiatrist telling her she needs meds for depression doesn't really mean much to me. I don't think she understand what she's going through.

So, this is what's possibly going on inside her - she gets out of control and does something bad, her conscience kicks in and beats her up over the head with guilt. The guilt triggers the rage... and it goes round and round the mulberry bush. I've been through this.

My advice. Help her break the cycle. She won't be able to control the rage - that's my experience. You can tell her until you're blue to Stop this, Stop that, Change this... when she's in that moment - She has ZERO control over it. Language, hitting, everything - is completely out of her control. So, you can beat the cycle by not having the thing start off in the first place. That requires extensive knowledge of the environmental factors that can trigger the rage. This is not just one thing - this can be many many things. I know for example, that the "female period" heightens my sensitivity and a little thing can snap my control over my rage. My female period is not consistent - I can have it one month and not again for a couple of months, etc. So, I never know when it's coming. But, I have gotten to the point that I can feel when my control is about to snap and I can analyze what led up to it - and then I can predict - ah, it's that time of the month... then I prepare myself. My husband and I are always watchful for triggers.

Of course, this doesn't help if the control is already snapped. When this happens, you can try to control the guilt. My husband is my partner in this. Telling me to stop with the language, stop with the hitting - that adds to the guilt. Trust me, I know I have to stop this. I am very sure your wife knows it as well. She knows it. She just doesn't know HOW to stop it. When my control snaps, my husband battens down. He puts up a wall. He doesn't walk away - because we've found that just makes the rage go longer. He stands there and faces it until I lose energy (when I'm in my rage moods, it takes A LOT of energy out of me). Okay, I don't recommend anybody else do this unless you know what you're doing and you are prepared. This can be very damaging to your spirit! It's like sitting there watching violence acted out infront of you and not closing your eyes. But, in any case, my husband doesn't fight me when I'm in this stage. If he does, then what he says will add to my guilt - because, it might be that I'm yelling and screaming and throwing plates at him, but I am fully conscious of all the evils I am doing but just doesn't have the control to stop it. Instead my husband gives me this feeling that he understands what's going on so that the consciousness that is flying over me (yes, I feel like my consciousness is up in the air looking down at myself saying, "Who is this witch??? Give me back myself!") - my consciousness reaches out to my husband instead of going for the guilt. He encourages me (without needing to say the words because we have been through this many, many times) - I can look in his face and hear him say you can do this, you can beat this, I'm here for you. But then, after the rage subsides, then we discuss what the issue was that got me in a rage in the first place.

Okay, this is completely armchair psychology. I didn't learn this from my psychologists and pyschiatrists that yes, didn't help me much. I learned this from my years and years and years of dealing with my problem.

Okay, pregnancy - there's no trigger. Pregnancy IS the trigger. You can't avoid it. So, for the next few months - including a few months post partum - this is just a reality you will have to face. I know it is difficult - my husband has battle scars to prove how difficult this is. But, your wife needs you the most right now. I can't even begin to tell you how much my husband means to me. My husband is my life, my love, my everything. He is my salvation second only to the Atonement of Christ.

Edited August 16, 2012 by anatess

[Stampede]

Anates, thank you for that. I think I may still talk to the bishop about things but I don't know how to cope aside from walking away. I don't know what it is like to lose control like that. It is like she is a different person and it scares me, makes me regret marriage, concerned for our children. I have seriously considered that the trigger might be me. So, before we got married I did a bad thing which I kept secret until after we got married and I was going through the repentance process. (She ultimately said she forgave me) I also gave her an ultimatum when we were living together that we either needed to get married or find separate living arrangements at the counsel of my Bishop.

Sometimes I think she resents me and her decision to get married so quickly. I was her first serious boyfriend and we got married in a rush which put strain on her family. I am afraid she only married me out of fear of being ashamed to her family. Sometimes I think that if she didn't have that stopping her, she would leave me.

[Guest]

Anates, thank you for that. I think I may still talk to the bishop about things but I don't know how to cope aside from walking away. I don't know what it is like to lose control like that. It is like she is a different person and it scares me, makes me regret marriage, concerned for our children. I have seriously considered that the trigger might be me. So, before we got married I did a bad thing which I kept secret until after we got married and I was going through the repentance process. (She ultimately said she forgave me) I also gave her an ultimatum when we were living together that we either needed to get married or find separate living arrangements at the counsel of my Bishop.

Sometimes I think she resents me and her decision to get married so quickly. I was her first serious boyfriend and we got married in a rush which put strain on her family. I am afraid she only married me out of fear of being ashamed to her family. Sometimes I think that if she didn't have that stopping her, she would leave me.

Stampede. Do you want this marriage to last forever or not? Does she want it to last forever or not? It doesn't matter what happened before. It doesn't matter how you got here. You decide - both of you - TODAY. Do you want this marriage to last forever?

I hope for the sake of your children that the answer is YES.

If that's the case, then you both need to throw away what happened before and start cementing a foundation. Yes, talk to the bishop. Chances are, your bishop will tell you to mend the marriage and you're going to still be left with the HOW of it.

Decide today. Walking away is not going to make her a better person. The problem still exists. And your children will still be there to become victims of it and you won't be there to protect them. You need to stand together as one and fight this demon. This is not you versus your wife. This you and your wife against her "dark passenger". It's either you stand beside your wife while you fight, or you leave her and let her fight this alone.

My 2nd child is showing signs of having inherited my problem. I recognize it because I have been through it. Your wife probably doesn't understand the problem enough to recognize it in somebody else. So, at least now, with my child, I can start preparing him for the road ahead. And hopefully, he won't have to go through the same hell I went through.

Edited August 16, 2012 by anatess

[Guest]

Doesn't "I have no control over it" and "we have to remove the triggers" sound like classic abuser talk? Not that I'm accusing you of being one. . . just that when you hear about someone abusing their spouse or kids, it's usually with "you made me do it" and "I can't help myself". What if the kids' general noise is the trigger (which it is for me, though I don't get rageful like that, just really cranky. . . and I can control it if I try)? Do you remove the children? Just trying to understand your point.

[beefche]

Why isn't anyone saying anything about this woman physically abusing these children? First and foremost, their safety should be priority.

[annewandering]

Why isn't anyone saying anything about this woman physically abusing these children? First and foremost, their safety should be priority.

And that is just what I was going to type. She is abusive and it hardly matters what her other problems are. WHY do you even want more children to come into your house to be abused? IF you do not take care of this NOW you might as well be dropping them on the floor yourself. They depend on you to protect them and you are NOT.

If she wont stop then those kids need out of there.

Anatess, I am assuming you never physically abused your kids. If you did I am glad you have gotten control of that huge issue.

[Guest]

And that is just what I was going to type. She is abusive and it hardly matters what her other problems are. WHY do you even want more children to come into your house to be abused? IF you do not take care of this NOW you might as well be dropping them on the floor yourself. They depend on you to protect them and you are NOT.

If she wont stop then those kids need out of there.

Anatess, I am assuming you never physically abused your kids. If you did I am glad you have gotten control of that huge issue.

No, I have never done it. But, it will not be beyond the realm of possibility for me to be capable of doing it. When I went through PPD, I had the opposite swing - I became super over protective of the baby that I wouldn't even let my husband hold them. The way we deal with it after the children were born is that we deal with the issue as a family. Not just my husband and I versus the demon. It's the family versus the demon. My kids are now old enough to be aware of the struggle and how their mother has this really big problem. Yeah, there's no illusion of perfection between my kids and I.

And yes, you are completely correct - those kids need out of there until she recognizes the problem and actively works on it. But, at this point - unless he can prove that the abuse occured - his word against hers unless there is physical evidence or witnesses or the psychiatrist was made aware of the abuse that occurred - the court always favors the mother in custody cases, even if the mother is taking anti-depressants. And, as she is pregnant, she'll have that new baby with her on her own. NOT A GOOD IDEA. Now she's alone with the kids without anybody to intervene and without anybody to help her overcome the problem.

The way I read the OP - his take on the matter is that it is her wife against him and how he is considering leaving the family, leaving the problem behind to start over. Not a good idea when kids are involved.

Edited August 16, 2012 by anatess

[Guest]

Doesn't "I have no control over it" and "we have to remove the triggers" sound like classic abuser talk? Not that I'm accusing you of being one. . . just that when you hear about someone abusing their spouse or kids, it's usually with "you made me do it" and "I can't help myself". What if the kids' general noise is the trigger (which it is for me, though I don't get rageful like that, just really cranky. . . and I can control it if I try)? Do you remove the children? Just trying to understand your point.

Of course it is classic abuser talk. But it is also REALITY. I am an abuser. There is no getting around that. Do I want to be an abuser? No. I've been fighting my own self my entire life! And no, it's not that "you made me do it". It is that there is this reality here. And it is part of the challenge in our family. We get to put into it everything that we know to fight against it. Or we part ways. My husband took the challenge on when he asked me to marry him. So we already know what decision he made.

If the kids general noise triggers the rage, then the trigger needs to be removed - either by removing the kids or removing me from the environment or the 3rd option, have a buffer between the monster and the children. Or you can medicate me and deal with a whole set of different problems that goes with medication.

There's a family in our ward that has a child going through this exact same thing. He's on medication. His medication has to be tweaked all the time because things change and the meds don't work anymore. They had to call the police on him several times because when his rage gets triggered he starts hurting the other children. He was around 12 when the problem surfaced - went with puberty - and he is now 19 or 20 and it is still a problem. They just can't get that medication right. Mine started waaay earlier than puberty. I do not remember a time when I didn't have this problem. And if you ask my mom, she'll tell you I was born with it - as in, I was a temperamental baby. In the Philippines though, these things are considered discipline issues - there's no anti-depressants or whatever there. You have this problem, you get whacked with a belt until you bleed everytime you lose control, no matter what age. My aunt has a mild case of this and when she was a teen-ager, my grandfather put him in a sack and hung her from a tree.

My mother-in-law is also on medication. She has a different psychological problem - she goes into nervous breakdowns, uncontrollable worry and fear and all that goes with it. They've been trying to tweak and tweak that medication. For the past 2 years or so, she's been a zombie. I am not even exagerrating. She's in the room but she's not emotionally engaged. She's just... there.

Everytime I see this, I get stronger in my resolve to fight this thing with my own brain and strength and spirit - meds free. But then, there is still that thing left in me that recognizes the problem as it is happening. I'm not sure if maybe other people don't have that. I can only speak from my own experience.

Edited August 16, 2012 by anatess

[Bini]

Just stumbled upon this thread, and I realise my response comes late.

OP, I can relate to your wife. I was diagnosed with bipolar in my early teens, and have endured the rollercoaster of ups and downs. I have also been pregnant, and was diagnosed with severe postpartum depression. The first month of not being medicated, I was a down spiraling mess, and I feared that I would hurt my daughter at some point. Everyday that my husband left me alone with my newborn baby, I wondered if today was going to be the day that I finally go over the edge, and harm my daughter. I couldn't let things go there. I called my husband on the phone while he was at work, and told him that I had an overwhelming feeling of wanting to throw the baby into a closet in the basement and walk away - just so it would STOP crying. He told me to put the baby in her crib, then shut the door, and go into the living room - he was on his way home immediately. I never hurt my child but I'd be lying if I said that I had never wanted to (and I'm ashamed for even admitting to that but it's true). I had moments where I wanted to shake her unconscious just to get some peace and quiet.

Once I started on my medication (and was consistent about it) things got better. They weren't perfect. I still had disconnect from my child, and I wouldn't learn to appreciate motherhood until my baby was around 4 or 5 months, it took that long. But I was able to reign in that "craziness", and the line between wrong and right, wasn't blurred anymore. It's important to understand, for those that have not ever dealt with mental health issues, that people DO lose themselves when they reach a certain boiling point. All common sense goes out the window. The people you love most, are the ones that suffer the most from your actions. Sometimes you care, and sometimes you don't. That's how mental illness cycles. When you're on a manic high with racing thoughts, and unpredictable behaviour - you're a wild card - never knowing what's next. All that explained, it is NEVER an excuse to abuse others. But it IS a dark reality of WHY it happens.

Mental health issues/illness takes a serious toll on any relationship. It is possible for a marriage to work but it takes a tremendous amount of strength and patience from the "other party". I told my husband during a moment of sanity, that if I ever hurt our child in any way, to remove her from the situation. He told me that she would be out of this house faster than I could blink - and that while he loves me dearly - it would be at that point, his responsibility to protect our child.

[Stampede]

Thank you all for the responses...

I don't WANT to leave... I have considered it but it is not the ideal. I want our relationship to last. I want her to be healthy. I don't want to take the children away form her. I know for a fact that she tries hard almost every day. I want our children to be with their mother because when things are good they are blissful. She has made mistakes, and she sought counsel for those things. It has been a long time since she did anything physical to our children (a couple years since she has been on medication).

I am so grateful for Anatess' words. I have nearly no experience dealing with these things except one time when I was 9 or 10 my mother was put on medication for pain because she was in a car accident and one night I was not listening to her like I should have and before I knew it she had thrown me into a garbage can and had my neck pinned against the wall. she was able to stop her self and ran into the other room crying and called the doctor about the medication. She had no control over it.

I talked to my wife and asked her if she feels that way. If she can't control it. She said she wasn't sure. she did feel guilty, she feels awful for the things she has done and doesn't want to feel that way. I told her to call the doctor that prescribed her the medication originally and now she has an appointment tomorrow at 11.

She isn't an abusive parent by nature. But as mentioned and no matter how forgiving a person is... it does take it's toll on a relationship. I do need to talk to the bishop and will probably this Sunday or next.

She is a stay at home mom and I work all day but I don't fear for our childrens' safety... at least not yet...

[Stampede]

Why isn't anyone saying anything about this woman physically abusing these children? First and foremost, their safety should be priority.

I realize that, but it was a while ago and the only reason I know about these things is because she told me about them and sought forgiveness and proper counsel. So I have been the supportive husband trying to get her the help she needs.

She also has gestational diabetes and when she was pregnant with our son it got to the point the doctor said she needed medication for that (this was before she started taking anti-depressants) and it made her bi-polar. One second she was screaming my head off for stuff that didn't even happen and the next moment she was wanting to curl up to me on the couch. I called the doctor and they took her off the medication immediately.

If I ever caught her abusing the children or attempting to abuse them in any way I would immediately remove them from the house. The previous times I had no idea until I came home and she was in tears telling me about what had happened... and what she had done wasn't something that seemed to require me taking them away after the fact.... Am I wrong in that?

[Guest]

I realize that, but it was a while ago and the only reason I know about these things is because she told me about them and sought forgiveness and proper counsel. So I have been the supportive husband trying to get her the help she needs.

She also has gestational diabetes and when she was pregnant with our son it got to the point the doctor said she needed medication for that (this was before she started taking anti-depressants) and it made her bi-polar. One second she was screaming my head off for stuff that didn't even happen and the next moment she was wanting to curl up to me on the couch. I called the doctor and they took her off the medication immediately.

If I ever caught her abusing the children or attempting to abuse them in any way I would immediately remove them from the house. The previous times I had no idea until I came home and she was in tears telling me about what had happened... and what she had done wasn't something that seemed to require me taking them away after the fact.... Am I wrong in that?

Stampede, you need to be really careful when it comes to the children. It only takes ONE TIME of a really bad snap and you'll have kids drowned in the bathtub. I'm not even exaggerating.

Taking them away after the fact is not solving the problem. It's too late then. You have to be able to trust that she won't go that far. And this can only be achieved if she realizes that there is a problem and that she has to face this problem and that she can't do this on her own and that you are there to support her. She has to know where her Lifeline is. It has to be well-prepared and she has to be very comfortable with it and trust it. So that, when she starts to feel the beginnings of an event, she can grab that Lifeline before she completely loses it and hurts somebody. If that Lifeline is you, then she has to be very comfortable and trust you and call for your help when she starts to feel the beginnings of an event. Then you will have to be there to intervene. It won't do if she gets embarrassed or guilty when she calls you. It will make her think twice before calling.

Edited August 17, 2012 by anatess

[beefche]

If I ever caught her abusing the children or attempting to abuse them in any way I would immediately remove them from the house. The previous times I had no idea until I came home and she was in tears telling me about what had happened... and what she had done wasn't something that seemed to require me taking them away after the fact.... Am I wrong in that?

You stated in the OP that she had dropped one child and shaken the others. The dropping can be accidental. But, the shaking is not an accident. And shaking can be abusive.

We aren't there and we don't know. But you brought up the concern. So, all I can say is that first and foremost, the safety of your children is what is important. Yes, your wife's well being and marriage are important as well. But, even above those, your children's safety is vital. So, protect them.

[tumbledquartz]

I also have bipolar. I have been back and forth on the medication issue. My first antidepressant was when #2 was a baby, and it made me worse. I went from depression to suicidal in a couple of weeks, and then from there to wanting to "take them with me" because I couldn't stand the thought of leaving them without a mom in this terrible world.

So, I went back to the doc and he took me off that medication and put me on another and it helped me immensely!!! So, my basic message is to be careful with medications and monitor her reaction, but don't discount them altogether. Pray for guidance, and accept help wherever it comes from.

She needs to learn to recognize when she's starting to feel overwhelmed and ask for help long before she gets to the point where she might hurt the children. I don't agree that there's no reason to take them away from her after the fact. Until she proves that she has changed in some way and decreased the chance that it will happen again, there's no reason to believe it won't happen again.

I think this article's message applies: Healing the Sick - general-conference

Good luck. I hope you and your wife are able to find ways to work this out for the benefit of yourselves and your children.

[Misshalfway]

I think talking to your bishop would be a good thing. Perhaps he can help by referring the two of you to a therapist that can provide a thorough evaluation. From what you've shared, it's hard to tell if she's struggling with pregnancy, or with the stresses of being alone with small children all day or if she's struggling with something more severe like a mood disorder.

What does seem clear is that she doesn't appear to have emotional awareness and good coping skills. That is something that could help both of you.

And maybe the bishop could recommend some marriage counseling. That can really help the both of you improve the emotional intercourse and bonding between the two of you.

BTW...how is she sleeping? And have you shared her extreme anger with her OBgyn?

[alucarD1975]

Sorry to hear that you are going through this, from behind my computer screen it seems like your wife has severe emotional issues. From your initial post she had issues even before she was medicated, the medication being a result of her issues.

Now there seems to be further issues, and your children are in danger.

you don't need to talk to your bishop, you need to call CPS and remove your childeren from her until her issues are resolved. Your kids need to be your priority adn while you say she went to counseling and got medicated, it's not enough there were no consequenses for her actions and she will revert to the same behavior.

"pregency" is a cop out......yeah ill get heat for this comment but in this case it is a cop out as these issues were pre existing.

I find the fact that you want to have more children with her disturbing.