The Birth Of Jesus

[CrimsonKairos]

1 Nephi 19:22-23

Now it came to pass that I, Nephi, did teach my brethren these things; and it came to pass that I did read many things to them, which were engraven upon the plates of brass, that they might know concerning the doings of the Lord in other lands, among people of old.

And I did read many things unto them which were written in the books of Moses; but that I might more fully persuade them to believe in the Lord their Redeemer I did read unto them that which was written by the prophet Isaiah; for I did liken all scriptures unto us, that it might be for our profit and learning.

I guess Nephi had it all wrong...instead of reading dead words to his brothers, he should've just told them to ask God if they could succeed. That would've worked just fine. Good going Nephi, pfffffffff, wasting time with reading the scriptures.

[Ray]

1 Nephi 19:22-23

Now it came to pass that I, Nephi, did teach my brethren these things; and it came to pass that I did read many things to them, which were engraven upon the plates of brass, that they might know concerning the doings of the Lord in other lands, among people of old.

And I did read many things unto them which were written in the books of Moses; but that I might more fully persuade them to believe in the Lord their Redeemer I did read unto them that which was written by the prophet Isaiah; for I did liken all scriptures unto us, that it might be for our profit and learning.

I guess Nephi had it all wrong...instead of reading dead words to his brothers, he should've just told them to ask God if they could succeed. That would've worked just fine. Good going Nephi, pfffffffff, wasting time with reading the scriptures.

You can see for yourself how well that worked... on Laman and Lemuel, I mean.

And I'm not saying we should not talk about what we know is from God, when we're sharing what we know with other people.

But if someone asks us how we know, or why we believe what we believe, I think we should say something like:

God assured us

instead of something like:

Well, see, it says so, in plain words, right here...

--------------------------------------------------------------

Will you get what I am saying this time, I wonder?

... will you agree with what I'm saying... I mean?

Or will you continue to show that you seem to think it's really stupid to do what I think we should do?

I haven't seen much support from you, so far.

[rosie321]

..And I thought I had a headache before I looked at this forum..

Not to destroy any of the fun here but I do have to interject some thoughts here.

[

quote]You can see for yourself how well that worked... on Laman and Lemuel, I mean.

Answer me this would Laman and Lamuel really ever excepted the truth? They saw so much. They recieved witness after witness. Their hearts were pricked at times but they still hardened them. They chose other things. All the testament to truth did not work on their hearts. Some people will never ever accept the truth. Thus the scripture "the way is narrow". If it were so easy then everyone would be there. But not everyone will get there.

If scriptures or proof were not necessary then why didn't Christ go around only saying I know its true because my Father told me. Thats all He had to say. Everyone should have been instantaneously converted. Instead he continually referenced previous known prophecies, scriptures etc to make his point. He used a variety of methods to reach all the people.

People don't care about what a person claims or believes to be true. There's a lot of people out there saying what I believe is true. Its insane how many people are claiming "I have the truth or I know this to be true. How can you be sure unless there is some kind of way to test it? Some way to measure it? Scriptures are a measuring stick one can use to see if it works. It directs people as to how to go. There was something I heard before that goes something like this. We talk to God through prayer and God talks to us through scriptures. So maybe we can pray for the truth and ask God to tell us but then we need to look at his word for the answers. Maybe that is why Nephi directed his brothers there. People especially starting out need the concrete. We need to take counsels given and apply them to understanding.

And I'm not saying we should not talk about what we know is from God, when we're sharing what we know with other people.

But if someone asks us how we know, or why we believe what we believe, I think we should say something like:

God assured us

instead of something like:

Well, see, it says so, in plain words, right here...

--------------------------------------------------------------

Will you get what I am saying this time, I wonder?

... will you agree with what I'm saying... I mean?

Or will you continue to show that you seem to think it's really stupid to do what I think we should do?

I haven't seen much support from you, so far.

What everyone is trying to say is that they know you know. We know that you feel strongly about the church/gospel. But it isn't enough to convince someone that it is true. How do we know you aren't dilusional or that you're taking some kind of drugs or something to lead you that way?

Your feeling could be one evidence to help them. But most people want to see different evidence. Such as in a trial. If you have a witness stand up and go. I know this guy did it... Why? Because I just know it.. I feel it inside... And that is the only proof on a matter. What do you honestly think the jury is going to do? They aren't going to care about the witness testimony. But if you have the witness and some evidence too , even if its circumstantial or whatever. People are going to take the claim more seriously. The more associated proof or probabilities that you line up the more likelihood you are going to have in convincing someone.

Well hope that made some sense to someone

Gonna go and get some advil now ...

[CrimsonKairos]

Rosie, you took the words right outta my mouth. B)

[pushka]

That was a great post Rosie...I hope your headache is better now! :)

[Ray]

Sounds like the same old story to me.

Why on Earth would anyone accept the scriptures as a "standard" or "test" to know truth?

Seriously... they're just words.

So what if Moses said or wrote... so and so...

So what if Isaiah said or wrote... so and so...

So what if Nephi said or wrote... so and so...

So what if Mormon said or wrote... so and so...

So what if John said or wrote... so and so...

So what if Paul said or wrote... so and so...

So what if Joseph Smith said or wrote... so and so...

So what if Gordon Bitner Hinckley said or wrote... so and so...

So what if Jesus, a man from a town called Nazareth, said or wrote... so and so...

All the words people write mean nothing at all... unless you know God did really inspire them.

So what if what they wrote is in perfect agreement... how do you know what they wrote is the truth?

If I tell other people what is written in the scriptures, why wouldn't they believe what I'm saying?

Seriously, people. Think about it.

If I tell other people what is written in the scriptures, why wouldn't they believe what I'm saying?

Never at any time did I say you should not compare what I say or write to the scriptures.

You can search the scriptures to your heart's content... but will that tell you what is really the truth?

If you have a headache, then I suggest you do something that will help your headache to go away, but please don't jump on my case because you think what I'm saying is not what you think I should say.

I have my beliefs, and you have your beliefs. I'm sharing what I believe God wants me to tell you.

What good would it do to show you that what I write was or is written by other prophets?

I personally believe it really wouldn't matter if you read the same words in the scriptures.

The only reason that I can see why you would believe what is written in the scriptures is because your faith is in the scriptures... or in those particular men... instead of in God, or in your Faith in God... similar to how some people won't believe anything other people say or write unless they can see it is written in the Bible... and they believe it simply because it is written in the Bible... instead of knowing through the power of God.

Okay? Those are my thoughts on this issue. I hope I have made my point clear.

You don't have to believe that what I'm saying is true. You can believe what you want to believe.

And btw, I know from personal experience that Advil does wonders for headaches. :)

[rosie321]

my additions in red

[

quote name='Ray' date='Dec 14 2006, 11:54 AM' post='117771]

Sounds like the same old story to me.

Why on Earth would anyone accept the scriptures as a "standard" or "test" to know truth?

Seriously... they're just words.

So what if Moses wrote... so and so...

So what if Paul wrote... so and so...

So what if President Hinckley wrote... so and so...

So what if Jesus Christ wrote... so and so...

All the words that people write mean nothing at all... unless you know God did really inspire them.

And if I tell other people what is written in the scriptures, why wouldn't they believe what I'm saying?

Seriously, people. Think about it.

If I tell other people what is written in the scriptures, why wouldn't they believe what I'm saying?

And never at any time did I say you should not compare what I wrote to the scriptures.

You can search the scriptures to your heart's content... but will that tell you what is really the truth?

It certainly can't hurt. Most people who search the scriptures have real intent to know truth and God. So that very act for many shows they are taking the first step to understanding. They want to know the truth. That is their asking.

But there are so many voices out there as I mentioned before claiming the truth. People have to weed through everything. (kind of like the process of going through the junk mail) Your voice saying its true because I know it does not help people weed through it. The fact that truth is eternal and will withstand all weedings is important knowledge to have for many-on top of the Ray knows it to be true. The problem is that many need someone to lead them through all the junk so they don't get buried beneath it. To help recognize what is junk and scam and what is good.

Its easy to say I know and you can know but HOW??????. They don't understand. In the New Testament there is the verse-sorry I can't remember the reference but it goes somewhat like this how can I know unless I was taught? God uses different people, circumstances and life patterns to teach. The scriptures are a good starting place and continuing place. It serves as a witness. No one doubts Ray that you have a testimony and we are not trying to mock that believe me. But on my time on the board I have noticed what everyone else is saying. That your point is always that its true because I know it. When pushed for more information about how that it what you stick with. I doubt many , if any would argue that you do need to personally know and have a testimony. But certain things or certain knowledge can draw someone personally closer to knowing as well as certain sins can draw a person away. People need to learn what is good and bad. This will be different for everyone and I doubt from all that I've ever read in scriptures that everyone will ever choose to know and follow. This makes it very confusing to those starting out. How do we know that you have the knowledge? How come this person asked and isn't following, why is God ignoring me when I ask, What did I do wrong? Sometimes there are lessons that God wants us to learn. Sometimes I think God wants us to just seek him. Maybe that very act is important in our progression. I think of Peter who walked and talked with God. He listened , he had righteous desires. He asked and followed. But he denied Christ. Even Christ said I pray for when you are converted. After Christ was resurrected and came to him you never saw him turn away. He seemed to have the unbreakable testimony. I think he needed the expericnces of cutting off the guards ear, of denying Christ to really be able to follow him wholeheartedly.

Another point-The scriptures say that in the mouth of two or more witness the truth is established. Thus also the verse in Ezekial of the importance of the stick of Judah and Ephraim. One voice is not enough ( Sorry I'm horrible with references but any good missionary can tell you exact verse.

If you have a headache, then I suggest you do something that will help your headache to go away, but please don't jump on my case because you think what I'm saying is not what you think I should say. That was never my intent. I think your point is lost or just tossed out because people don't care to keep hearing what Ray knows. It can be frustrating to someone looking in trying to learn more. The way you come across is like I know-how come you don't know. what's wrong with you? Do you see what I mean? There are many who want to know the will of God and they want to make sure they are on the right path. Its not because they are not asking. Instead of showing them roadmarkers or more things that could help them you in fact almost get into shoving people away. I really don't think that is your intention. That is what is most frustratingI have my own beliefs, and you can have your own beliefs. I am sharing what I believe is the truth. NO one doubts that.

I don't have to show any of you that what I was saying was or is said by other prophets. Then don't expect people to automatically follow you. Anyone can say anything

And I personally believe it really wouldn't matter if you read the same words in the scriptures.

Yes it would. It would be another witness to me. YOur voice wouldn't be a lone one then.The only reason that I can see why you would believe what is written in the scriptures, is because your faith is in the scriptures... instead of the power of God. Then why do we bother reading scriptures.? Why have we been so strongly admonished to continue reading them if they are meaningless? I realize that there is something more. Anyone can just read words but they won't mean anything without the spirit or the power of God behind it.

Similar to how some people won't believe anything unless they see it written in the Bible... and they believe it simply because it's in the Bible.

But even the BOM and churches establishes itself through Bible verse references, there are witnesses to it who could not deny to the death what they saw was true....there were definite other witnesses established right in the Beginning of it many who were excommunicated who could not deny on their death beds what they had seen. Witnesses other than Ray. Do you not think this knowledge would be beneficial to someone starting out? Did you ever see in Primary where they do a little skit, taken from a verse in Ecclesiastes , I believe, where a few sticks are taken and someone tries to break them. They cannot. But with one stick it is broken. The more witnesses the harder it is to break. Ray you have developed your testimony over the years and have had it nourished through church. Even in the instanteous conversions like Paul he had to go and be taught before he went out. The instanteous conversion wasn't all he needed to know. The disciples spent much time learning at the feet of Christ. Sometimes learning takes time and many different directions. It's not just in the snap your fingers. Ask God and Boom you have this unbreakable testimony. Theres also learning and growing.Okay? That's what I think on this issue. I hope I have made my point clear.

You have made yours clear. Hopefully you can see my different points even if they seemed rambling or drawn out (I have a tendancy to do that). We really aren't as far apart as you might think :) .

[Ray]

I noticed two recurring thoughts throughout your last post, Rosie.

1. How do we know what is true?

2. Who should we believe?

My answer to point #1 is... through faith from God.

My answer to point #2 is... nobody other than God.

And yes, I know, God speaks, and has spoken, through others who are/were on this Earth, but I put my trust in God... and only God... to know what is true about anything.

Okay? That's my main message. Everything else is just fluff.

I will share what I know and how I learned what I know. You and others can go and do what you want.

And btw, I also know we're not as far apart as you think. I'm simply focusing on what I believe is necessary.

[rosie321]

I noticed two recurring thoughts throughout your last post, Rosie.

1. How do we know what is true? Everyone comes at it from a variety of ways. Does one way really do it for everyone? Aren't there different things that some people struggle with or have issue with that might hold them back in certain areas from taking a leap of faith? I bet you if you asked everyone on the board to tell you how they know truth or what draws them to truth there would be many variations. If you asked them about their weak areas you would get a variety of responses. To me, its kind of like a mountain. At the base there are many different options (one IE being. Many different faiths). There are many different directions you can go on the way up. But as you go up the mountain it narrows and peaks off to ultimate truth so to say. There are different ways that people may be drawn up to the top by God. But as you go up your attentions become focused. The different paths you may take are limited. Look at the varying methods God has used throughout scriptures to reach people. This master teacher knows and understands that not everyone learns the same way. Sometimes it is not an instantaneous process, I believe sometimes for a purpose known to God. It seems like you are going straight to the noble point in things and forgetting the space between the bottom and the top of the mountain. People are wandering down below confused why they are not seeing things as you.

If you wish you can use the example of a ladder. It has to be taken rung by rung. If you could jump to the top just like that-Congratulations. From what I've seen through scriptural examples it isn't that easy.

2. Who should we believe? Obviously God or those whom he has appointed. God is not physically here. It's hard, especially if you haven't recognized things or experienced God to not doubt that maybe you are not in fact losing your mind. We need living breathing examples to look towards. Thus the missionaries, prophet, etc....... That's also where people such as yourself and I need to say you might think that but look here. This is what I see and believe and why... It helps to cut down peoples fears and say hey its ok to take a risk.

My answer to point #1 is... through faith from God-Ultimately, but through a variety of ways and means we have to develop it and take a leap on it so we can grow in and learn truth. What makes everyone take their different leaps is different for each person. If by gaining a greater understanding of just one gospel truth by seeing more evidence then why can't it be done? When you have posters ask-why. They want more than just because you know it.

My answer to point #2 is... nobody other than God. Ultimately it is God but hasn't he appointed people here on earth and given different jobs to people so that they may know truth? Once again by faith. And how do people obtain faith?.....

And yes, I know, God speaks, and has spoken, through others who are/were on this Earth, but I put my trust in God... and only God... to know what is true about anything. So then you don't believe in scriptures? you don't believe in what the prophets testify of? You don't believe in the restoration of the priesthood, .....etc. See where a persons thoughts may go with a statement like that?

Okay? That's my main message. Everything else is just fluff. Not fluff to some. It is the milk before the meat. It is their necessary line upon line. If they can't put their foot on the next rung of the ladder they will never make it to the top.

I will share what I know and how I learned what I know. You and others can go and do what you want.

I wish you would expand your expertise to really try and reach people where they are at, because I think you could be much more effective if you would at least try. Something that God has demonstratedly tried to do throughout scriptures. I know you see the ultimate point but isn't it important for you to also effectively share it with others who ask for a reason for the hope within you?

And btw, I also know we're not as far apart as you think. I'm simply focusing on what I believe is necessary.

agreed and same here No bad feelings I hope. Just written in probably nagging, sisterly love

[Ray]

While intentionally trying to keep this simple, and brief, I will try to share my understanding with you.

If you do not agree with what I am about to say, then please know that this is what I believe, and that I also believe that you don't have to agree with me.

I share what I know with other people I talk with, but you are not referring to what I know.

You are referring to how I share what I know, and you're saying "Ask God" isn't good enough.

When someone asks me how I know what I know, or where I got my evidence for what I'm saying, you think I should provide them with some evidence to show how I came to know what I know.

... evidence other than my own personal testimony from God...

... evidence from other people who say they have learned from God...

... evidence from other people who I agree with.

Is that right?

If so, then let me tell you why I don't do that.

I don't believe what I believe because other people told me what they believe and I then chose to believe them... anyone other than God, I mean.

And I don't believe other people even when they tell me that some other people have said what they said.... unless those other people are God, I mean.

... even if they believe God told them what they believe, either personally, or through some other people.

I don't take anyone's word for anything... anyone other than God, I mean.

That is not how I learn what is true... about anything.

... and I don't see how that helps others to know the truth.

I always ask God if what anyone says is true... because that's the only way I know the truth.

I do know God speaks and has spoken through people... and often my wife is one of them... but I also don't believe her just because she says so.

... I always ask God for His assurance on all things.

I don't believe what anyone else tells me... anyone other than God, I mean.

... just as I don't expect others to believe me... unless God confirms to them what I told them.

I think all of us should ask God for His assurance on all things, so that all of us can know what is true.

But do I read books? Of course I do. I do know God does inspire people.

And I know many books contain a lot of the truth... concerning things God does want us to know.

But I don't believe anyone just because they have spoken, or written, or caused something to be written.

... I don't even believe anyone when they say what they say is what God inspired them to say.

... unless God tells me, personally, that He did.

Why would I believe them just because they said so, or what other people have said?

To me, that's a stupid reason to believe anything, and I don't see how that helps to know truth.

When I read any writing I simply read what is written while trying to understand what I'm reading.

And if I don't understand what someone has written, I ask them, or I ask God, to explain that.

Why would I ask the person who wrote what I'm reading to share what another person has written?

That is pretty much what happened when I shared what I believe and Crimson asked me for other evidence.

Why would I quote someone else to explain what I wrote or what I was thinking while writing?

... I know I could have, but how would that help someone know if what I have said is the truth?

Instead of someone asking me to quote someone else who said what I said, why don't they just ask God to confirm what I said?

You seem to be criticizing me because I don't refer to other people... anyone other than God, I mean.

Really, people. Just think, some more, and ask God if He will confirm what I said.

And stop trying to convince me that I should do what you say.

I don't do what anyone says...

... no matter how many times they keep trying to tell me I should do what they think I should do.

... unless God confirms to me that I should do what they said, by assuring me they are speaking for Him.

[CrimsonKairos]

Now you're making Rosie and I sound stupid. We never said to believe someone just because they said so. But you know that.

We said that if we've gained a testimony of a certain passage of scripture, it can be helpful to point that scripture out to someone else and encourage them to find out if it's true.

But we never, ever said we or anyone else believes something just because someone wrote it.

You said it best though: You don't believe what anyone else tells you.

So why the shmeck should we believe what you tell us? Isn't that a waste of your time, just as it's a waste of your time to read our words since it's us and not God doing the talking?

[Ray]

Now you're making Rosie and I sound stupid. We never said to believe someone just because they said so. But you know that.

No, I'm not making you sound stupid.

I'm telling you what I think you are asking me to do, and I'm telling you what I think of your suggestion.

We said that if we've gained a testimony of a certain passage of scripture, it can be helpful to point that scripture out to someone else and encourage them to find out if it's true.

What I was asking was that if I said the same thing, why not just get a testimony of what I said?

But we never, ever said we or anyone else believes something just because someone wrote it.

Here's what went down, as I saw it, in summary:

I said something concerning something I believe.

You then asked me for another reference... concerning what I was talking about.

I referred you to God, but that wasn't good enough. You wanted another quote from another person.

And then I told you you could search for yourself... I'm not doing your homework for you. I didn't want to give you a reference from someone else who simply had said what I said.

But then you suggested that if you had that other reference, you might then know if I was speaking the truth... as if that other referral would help you to know if what I was saying was true.

Which is what I'm referring to... you want another reference... another reference to believe in... instead of thinking about what I told you I believe and then asking for an assurance from God... to help you know what is the truth.

You said it best though: You don't believe what anyone else tells you.

... anyone other than God, I said.

So why the shmeck should we believe what you tell us?

You shouldn't!

... unless God tells you I am speaking the truth.

Isn't that a waste of your time, just as it's a waste of your time to read our words since it's us and not God doing the talking?

God could speak through you... as well as me... but not both of us... not now... we don't agree.

And if you want to know who... between the two of us... is speaking the truth... if one of us is... ask God.

I am repeatedly telling you what I believe.

[CrimsonKairos]

What I was asking was that if I said the same thing, why not just get a testimony of what I said?

That's always an option, but if someone had to choose, they'd probably opt for consulting the canonized revelations of God such as the Book of Mormon (the keystone of our religion) and the D&C (the capstone). Why have such disdain for the canon?

But then you suggested that if you had that other reference, you might then know if I was speaking the truth... as if that other referral would help you to know if what I was saying was true.

Actually what I said was that if you gave me a reference I'd have an idea what scriptural reason you had for believing that women participated in the temple ordinances in Old Testament times. I wasn't asking you to convince me, I was asking you to inform me.

And if you want to know who... between the two of us... is speaking the truth... if one of us is... ask God.

God told me that we're both right...He also added that we're talking about different things.

[Ray]

Ray: What I was asking was that if I said the same thing, why not just get a testimony of what I said?

CrimsonKairos: That's always an option, but if someone had to choose, they'd probably opt for consulting the canonized revelations of God such as the Book of Mormon (the keystone of our religion) and the D&C (the capstone). Why have such disdain for the canon?

I don't have disdain for the canon. I just don't memorize information by chapter and verse. But you can search for that information without asking me about it. I know you can. Really, you can.

Ray: But then you suggested that if you had that other reference, you might then know if I was speaking the truth... as if that other referral would help you to know if what I was saying was true.

CrimsonKairos: Actually what I said was that if you gave me a reference I'd have an idea what scriptural reason you had for believing that women participated in the temple ordinances in Old Testament times. I wasn't asking you to convince me, I was asking you to inform me.

I did inform you. I gave you information. You can check it against all other sources. And I, personallly, recommend that you just check with God about it. Why do you need to read the same info somewhere else?

Ray: And if you want to know who... between the two of us... is speaking the truth... if one of us is... ask God.

CrimsonKairos: God told me that we're both right...He also added that we're talking about different things.

Yes, I know we are both right, in part, but as a whole, we do not agree. Or at least it seemed we didn't. Maybe now we are beginning to. Do you now agree with what I have been saying?

[Jason]

Around and around and around they go......where they'll stop, nobody knows.

[Ray]

What the world... needs now... is love... sweet love... love not just for some... but for ev... ery one.

What the world...

... Burt Bacharach, on piano, ladies and gentlemen...

... recommended by Austin Powers.

... in contrast to the laugh of Dr. Evil and his henchmen that just gradually fades away.

Well... now... where were we?

Mojo... anyone?