I am new to this site and have a question...

[LoveTheSavior]

Years ago I came across a document that was called something like, "40 reasons why Joseph Smith was a Prophet" or something like that. It went on to list items like,

* He translated the B of M in so many days

* He did so w/ a 3rd grade education and by candlelight no less

* He couldn't have this or that unless he was truly the Lord representative on the earth.

Does anyone remember this? Can I find it online?

Any help would be appreciated.

many thanks.

[pam]

I have seen a list like this. Let me see if I can find something on it.

[LoveTheSavior]

I'm trying to help out one of the families I hometeach.

Again the message was that Joseph couldn't have done any of the items on the list unless he was a prophet.

many thanks.

[Anddenex]

It was a youtube video, however I think it was like 27 points.

[Vort]

Knowing nothing about the issue except what you describe, my first impulse would be to suggest that you NOT offer these things as "proof". In my experience, all such lists are faulty and use poor logic to arrive at their conclusion. Testimony is conveyed by revelation, not by faulty and specious reasoning. Better to tell them to read scripture and pray, or better yet, read scripture and pray with them.

[pam]

No I didn't see it in a YouTube. I saw it somewhere else. I'm looking.

[pam]

I think I found it. But it's in a book I have. I knew I had seen it somewhere.

The list I have starts out with this opening:

Occasionally you hear someone say, "I could believe your Mormon Doctrine if I just didn't have to swallow the story about Joseph Smith being a man of God and that he translated the Book of Mormon from some golden plates which he claimed he found on a hillside." It is even possible that you, yourself, have doubted his story. Well, let us consider some facts or conditions that must be compiled with in order for you or someone else to produce a similar record under comparable conditions.

Edited September 20, 2012 by pam

[pam]

I'd be happy to provide the list I have if you would like it.

They start out with:

1. You must be between 23 and 24 years of age.

2. You cannot be a college graduate. In fact, you can only have three years of formal schooling.

3. Whatever you write must be on the basis of what you know.

4. You must write a book with 239 chapters; 54 of them about wars, 21 about history, 55 about prophecy, 71 about doctrines, 17 about missionaries, and 21 about the mission of Christ.

5. You must include in your writings the history of two distinct and separate nations, along with the histories of different contemporary nations or groups of people.

6. Your writings must describe the religious, economic, social and political cultures and institutions of these two nations.

7. You must weave into your history the religion of Jesus Christ and the pattern of Christian living.

8. When you start to produce this record, covering a period over 1,000 years, you must finish it in approximately 80 days.

9. When you have finished, you must not make any changes to the text. The first edition must stand forever.

10. AFter pauses for sleep and food, if you are dictating to a stenographer, you must never ask to have the last paragraph or last sentence read back to you.

[Ratisch]

What is the name of the book?

[pam]

Especially for Mormons (first book)

[LoveTheSavior]

That's exactly what I've been looking for. I tried to get the full list by searching online, but no luck. I hate to be a bother, but could you please post the remaining points as well. It would really help.

Vort, I understand that true conversion can only take place via the Spirit. I'm trying to get this family to move in that direction. I have no intention to leave them with a list of facts and figures regarding the prophet Joseph. I would like this list to use as talking points in an effort to get them to read / ponder / pray. Your point is a valid one and I appreciate you reinforcing it.

[prisonchaplain]

Sometimes it takes an outside consultant...here are a half dozen or so (with explanations):

LDSFAQ: Infrequently Asked Questions for Critics of LDS Religion

(The first section is Jeff Lindsey asking "How could Joseph Smith know how to ... if he made it up)

[Just_A_Guy]

Especially for Mormons (first book)

Wow. You are old!

[Guest Ivo_G]

Here you go (in case you still need it):

How Joseph Smith Wrote the Book of Mormon

:)

Edited September 23, 2012 by Ivo_G

[pam]

The list I have is the complete list than what is on the you tube video.

[pam]

11. Your history or record must be long, approximately 522 pages with over 150 words per page.

12. You must announce that your "smooth narrative" is not fiction, but true, yes, sacred history.

13. You must publish it to every nation, kindred, tongue and people, declaring it to be the word of God.

14. You must include with the record itself this marvelous promise: "And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask of God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Jesus Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, He will manifest the truth of it and you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

15. Ten and hundreds of thousands must bear record to the world for the next 135 years that they know the record to be true, because they put the promise to the test and found it to be true, the truth manifested to them by the power of the Holy Ghost.

(Keep in mind when it says 135 years, this list was written over 40 years ago)

16. Thousands of great men, intellectual giants and scholars must subscribe discipleship to the record and its movement even to the point of laying down their lives.

17. Your descriptions of the cultures in these civilizations of which you will write about is not known when you publish your manuscript.

18. There can be no flaw whatsoever in the entire book.

19. Yet, you must not make an absurd, impossible, or contradictory statements.

20. Even so, many of the facts, ideas, and statements given us as true in your record must be entirely inconsistent, even in the direct opposite of the prevailing beliefs of the world. Very little is even claimed to be known about these civilizations and their 1,000 years of history.

21. You must invite the ablest scholars and experts to examine the text with care. You must strive diligently to see that your book gets into the hands of all those most eager to prove it a forgery and who are competent to expose any flaw in it.

22. Thorough investigation, scientific evidence and archaelogical discoveries for the next 135 must verify your claims and prove even the minutest details of your history to be perfectly true.

23. After 135 years of extensive analysis, no claim or fact in the book is disproven, but all is vindicated. Other theories and ideas as to its origin, rise, and fall, leaving your claims as the only possible ones.

24. Internal and external prophecies must be confirmed and fulfilled in the next 135 years.

25. Three honest, accreditable witnesses must testity to the whole world that an angel from heaven appeared to them and showed them the ancient records from which you claim your record is translated.

26. You must call out of heaven the voice of the Redeemer to declare to the three witnesses that your record is true and that it is their responsibility to bear testimony, and that they do.

27. Eight other witnesses must testify to the world that they saw the ancient records in broad daylight and they handled them and felt the graving thereon.

28. The first three and second eight witnesses must bear their testimony, not for profit or gain, but under the great personal sacrifice, persecution, and even to their death.

29. You must find someone to finance your book with the understanding that he nor you will ever receive any monetary remuneration from it. You must sell the book at cost or less.

30. Finally, after suffering persecution and revilement for 20 years after you finish the book, you must willingly give your own life for your testimony that the record is from God.