Why shouldn't I have my name removed?

[Anddenex]

I get it already, I failed the faith test. Hence it's easier to believe in the God I believe in as opposed to one you believe in. The one you believe in wouldn't do this.

On the contrary dear brother, you are still living, thus the test still continues. We all fall short of some test in this life or another, however the final test is the one we want to be aware of. As long as you are still living, the test is still in session.

The God we believe in actually "suffers" these things to happen. He, himself, would never do any such thing, but for some reason He "suffers" other choices. As he suffered Joseph to be cast in a pit by those who were supposed to be his protectors. God suffered Joseph him to be sold as a slave, suffered him to be cast into prison. All of which led to the saving and the Lord keeping his promise to Jacob, Isaac, and Abraham.

Here is another thought, it may apply it may not, but my heart seems to want to share it. One G.C. a while back a Sister spoke about how God loves everyone. She mentioned how she had all these wonderful things, and how this lady in South America did not, and asked the question, "Does God love us all?" Her conclusion yes. However, I think it is very easy for someone who has had "it all" to say God loves us all, in comparison to someone who had not had anything.

I personally am more inspired by the women/men who has suffered greatly and then says, "God loves me as much as he loves them who have everything."

I have realized though, God does love us all. If men/women had accepted God, none of us would suffer as much as some of us do. In Zion, no women would need to fear the abuse of men. In Zion, all would be equal, and there would be no rich and no poor.

Anyways, the test is still is session for both of us, and may you and I be found spotless, despite our midterm test failures, at the last day.

[Dark_Jedi]

On the contrary. I don't know exactly what's happened to you and don't expect you to share the details, but the God I believe in allows terrible things to happen so that our agency can be preserved. He also does not always provide obvious miracles in response to suffering in order to lighten our burdens. More often, He does His work through very small acts that may not even be recognized as miraculous.

Let me share a little personal experience with you. I felt God withdraw from my life when I entered a very abusive relationship. I was not the most faithful at the time, and I certainly wasn't at my best spiritually, but my husband and I both wanted to better ourselves, repent of our shortcomings, and see our relationship grow into something wonderful. Neither of us were employed- him due to a back injury and me due to a rather trying pregnancy and his unwillingness to let me leave the home. We were relying on our bishop's storehouse for food and met with our bishop to discuss our struggles and work on repentance.

I felt certain that my husband and I could overcome our failings, that he could become a worthy priesthood holder, that we could go to the temple, and that we could provide for ourselves and our little one on the way. However, my husband was far too troubled by the abuse he'd experienced as a child and far too violent for me to remain safe in our relationship. There were several occassions where his actions could have killed me, and I sometimes wished they had. I stayed true to our relationship, praying fervently for my husband's heart to be softened, until the time came that he turned his violent hand on our infant, and my faith shattered.

I secretly sent a message to an old friend asking for advice. The only way I could get the message to her without my husband reading it was to send it to her myspace account, which she hadn't checked in a couple years. But the day after I sent it, she felt she should check her account. She saw my message and spoke with my mom, who gave her the money she would have sent me to pay our bills that month so that she could drive all the way across the states to get me. I didn't even know she was on her way when I felt I needed to flee the situation- and an opportunity presented itself when my husband had to go to an appointment. I took our baby and what I could carry to some college friends nearby who didn't even know what had been going on but were willing to put me up until I could find out what to do, and then my childhood friend on the way from home called to say she was in town and wanted to know where to get me.

All this came together to help me in a most miraculous way, but it was small. It was not the miracle I'd been looking for. My now ex-husband's heart has still not been softened and he is not involved in my life or our child's. Even with God's hand helping me out of that situation, I have still had quite the struggle finishing school and finding adequate work as a single parent. Sometimes, I still feel like God is staying His hand fom my life when there are areas He could be helping.

God is there. He cares. He loves you. You will find His miracles at work in your life with time and patience and as you look in the right places. He won't always help the way you want Him to. He won't make things easy. But He will make it possible for you to bear your burdens.

Thanks for sharing your story. I don't doubt this happened and while I'm not sure if it really was God that did this (my own dichotomy - I was trying to find this word earlier), but you are sure. That's such a huge part of why I am where I am. That God that you believe in did this for you - a small little thing like checking a PM lead to a life changing event for you. I used to believe in that same God. But that God, the LDS God, is fair and loving to his children. I have heard so many similar stories. But here's the thing - nothing like that has happened in my trial. I know my time is not God's time and so forth, but it's been years - a good chunk of my mortal life. I'm 52 - don't think I shared that, but I could live 52 more years or 52 more seconds - either way, my time is limited. I think some of you understand that I have been waiting for such a thing to happen. I would like nothing more than to believe in that same God you do - the one I used to believe in. But alas, the dichotomy - that God hasn't inspired someone to check their PM, or put me in the right place at the right time to meet that one person, or inspired that one person to say that thing that clicks, or caught my eye with that Ensign article that makes me go "Wow" and on and on. I thought he would. You can believe in that God - it happened to you. I used to and want to, but that God is not active like that in my life. And since he's not, the conclusion has to be the other side of the dichotomy. I can't believe in the same God you do because I haven't had the experiences you have - so God (in my view) must be on the other side of the dichotomy because the LDS God would not do that to anyone.

The other end of the dichotomy is the uninvolved God that I have come to recognize. And do you see how much baggage this carries with it? If God is uninvolved (the deist version of God), then baptism, Joseph Smith, the church itself, prayer, a Savior, and so much more, are all unnecessary. I've been brought to tears writing this because that's not the God I loved, but that God is not there.

[Dark_Jedi]

Wow, I 've read pretty much this whole thread. DarkJedi you are certainly suffering, and I am sorry. I have a couple of comments: God doesn't "do" things to you. Unfortunately, his imperfect beings do. He cannot stop them from doing that. As you know.

Joseph Smith could have let himself be overcome by the evil forces that surrounded him in the grove before he saw Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. He made the choice to fight the evil. He made the choice to fight for his faith and salvation. What a great example.

I appreciate your comments, Brenda, and thank you for reading through the thread. I too, believe God does not do things to people, but allows things to happen.

The whole thing that started this is very complex, and too complex to explain here. Let me just say this about it and I think it may help you and others to understand a little more clearly where I am coming from with that thought track. In 2000, with a fair amount of sacrifice on my part and on the part of my young family, I completed an education sequence (beyond the master's level) that would allow me to enter into the administrative end of my line of work. I was a bright and shining upcoming star (for those reading the thread, I'll do the math, I was 40). I secured and completed my necessary internship and was hired by the organization where I completed the internship (not unusual). The following year the place reorganized, and I still had an adminisitrative position with the same pay level, but not exactly what I wanted to do. Nevertheless, I was happy there and intended to remain. I was actively serving in the church, my wife stayed home with the children, things really were like I thought they were supposed to be, and if asked at that time if I would change anything in my life the answer would have been an emphatic "NO!"

Then I saw an ad in the paper for a position at a nearby company for the job I actually wanted. Seeing as I was happy where I was, I decided to pray about it with the possibility that this might be what I was supposed to do. I felt very strongly - and let me emphasize that - that I should pursue that position. I have equated this feeling with some of the most profound spiritual experiences of my life (baptism, temple marriage) - it was that strong, despite the fact that I actually did have some misgivings about it and my boss vehemently tried to talk me out of it. I was, however, determined to do what I thought God wanted me to do. I interviewed with three other candidates, and quite literally blew them away - I was far and away the best candidate and was hired.

What I didn't know at the time (although others, including my former boss, did) was that this company had someone in house they were grooming for this position and just needed a place holder until he was ready. That happened in less than 2 years, the last part of which were filled with lies and innuendo by this group of aforementioned evil doers that damaged my reputation, and, when finally fired made me all but unemployable in that field.

That's only the beginning - there's far more deeper and complex issues the followed. But it is the root of the issue. God knew this was going to happen when I was inspired to do this. I was happy where I was and have no doubt I would still be there today had I not been inspired to do that - again, with God undoubtedly knowing the outcome.

So did God do this to me? The argument culd be made that yes, he did, or no, that I followed my agency. It could be argured that I mistook that feeling or that it was a deception by Satan. (If that's true, than how do I know I didn't mistake it at the first missionary dicussion, or baptism, etc.?) And I wouldn't have done this without God's approval.

Again, there is much more that happened after this that led me to where I am today, but in the first part I remained active and confident that God would fix the problem, I am now neither active, nor confident that God fixes any problems. And if asked now I would have a whole list of things I would have done differently in my life, including joining the church itself.

Edited October 11, 2012 by Dark_Jedi

[Anddenex]

The other end of the dichotomy is the uninvolved God that I have come to recognize. And do you see how much baggage this carries with it? If God is uninvolved (the deist version of God), then baptism, Joseph Smith, the church itself, prayer, a Savior, and so much more, are all unnecessary. I've been brought to tears writing this because that's not the God I loved, but that God is not there.

This dichotomy is a very important part of your life, and this dichotomy is also a very important part of my life.

I love the verse in scripture which speaks about opposition. Later on in other chapters opposition is mentioned again, and how important opposition is for us to make a choice. Our moral agency would be forfeit without opposition, the ability to be enticed by one extreme, in connection with another extreme (extreme may not be the best word).

The intriguing aspect, and probably why you went to tears writing, is that you are correct! This is your dichotomy. This is your opposition. This is your choice.

I fear I may appear to elementary in this next statement, however, I hope your heart will understand.

As a father, I would assume, as I have, that there are times when you stepped away, and withdrew from your children so that they could grow and experience. Maybe sometimes this was done to see how a specific child would respond to the experience. At times this may have been done, to provide a teaching moment. Yet, after the experience, instead of the child listening to your teaching, your love, they repelled your loving advance.

Did your withdrawal ever say to yourself, "I don't care for them"? Did your withdrawal appear to a child as though you did not love them?

I am sorry this last part didn't type out, as easily as it went through my mind. I am stopping here.

[Dark_Jedi]

As a father, I would assume, as I have, that there are times when you stepped away, and withdrew from your children so that they could grow and experience. Maybe sometimes this was done to see how a specific child would respond to the experience. At times this may have been done, to provide a teaching moment. Yet, after the experience, instead of the child listening to your teaching, your love, they repelled your loving advance.

Did your withdrawal ever say to yourself, "I don't care for them"? Did your withdrawal appear to a child as though you did not love them?

I am sorry this last part didn't type out, as easily as it went through my mind. I am stopping here.

I think I get it. Yes, I have done as you say, and I have experienced the child being upset with me for not helping when I could have. I have experienced the opposite, as well, where I tried to help but was rebuffed until such a time as the child suffered the consequences of the actions. I certainly am far from divine, and I know that time only exists for us. But I also have never withdrawn myself from my children for 20% of their lives (10/50) nor 1/3 of their lives (10 years of the 34 of my adult life).

Probably most of the people who have felt this withdrawal for an extended time aren't talking to members of the church about their experience. They're probably just living lives of blissful inactivity or just went ahead and decided none of it was true and had their names removed or committed sin that led to excommunication. That's why I think members don't get it. They haven't experienced it, nor do they know people who have experienced it because those people aren't visible.

[C_T_R]

Indeed, in the beginning that was the only question, why has God withdrawn and why are my prayers and fasting not being answered? Years of the same old same old have deepened that question to a serious doubt (again, doubt isn't the right word). And I understand the experiences of Jesus inthe garden, Joseph Smith in Liberty Jail, etc. Of note is the relatively short time these individuals had to endure this withdrawal, however. Jesus was a matter of hours, and he full well knew that he was doing what he was supposed to be doing and what was happening HAD to happen. Jospeph Smith was a matter of a few weeks, and while we can't assume he had the same resolute belief that what was happening was supposed to happen, his struggle ended with a major scriptural revelation. It's been over 8 years.

I would like to address the trial of faith. I thought that in the beginning, also, this is just a trial. I had expectations. I knew what was happening wasn't supposed to be happening, that this was a bad thing perpetrated by evil people and happening to a good person. I whole heartedly believed (with all my heart, might, mind and strength) that God could and would fix it. I did have faith in him and in the redemptive power. As time went on, though, I began to recognize the weakness of my faith. I realized that I was failing the test. I realized I must not really have the faith I needed, and as a result I became more resolute and attempted to increase my faith. This was to no avail. What happened to me was to the benefit of the evil people (one of who was a church member) who perpetrated it - they're still benefitting, but am I stil being tried. If it were a trial, didn't the God who who knows and loves me know what the outcome would be and the effects it would have onme and my family? Didn't he see this day? Did he not know when I realized the weakness of my faith and attempted to fix it? I know his time is not my time, but it's been 8 years, and there have been profound - even eternal - effects. I came to realize that if this was a test, it proved it's point - I did lack faith, I admitted so and expressed humility, but apparently the test wasn't over. So was it really a test? The evil people still benefit from the evil they did (the member is actually dead), and will someday have the opportunity to hear the gospel and accept it and end up in the celestial kingdom - but I, if I stay on my current path, will not. Wasn't I the one doing what I was supposed to do? That's how I came to the realization that God really doesn't intervene in our lives. This either was a trial of faith designed to increase my faith and understanding or it was just a worldly happening that God neither knew nor cared about. What a dilemma of thought! Admittedly, I am a fairly black and white person, but this really came down to black or white in my mind. Either the God I had loved and trusted and who I thought loved me allowed this evil for my own improvement, or God was ignorant and uncaring of the situation. I was heartbroken and chose the latter, because the first makes no sense.

To the first paragraph -- are you suggesting that what you've been going through for 8 years is worse than what the Savior went through?

To the second -- But If Not ? - general-conference

[Finrock]

Good afternoon Dark_Jedi. It is a pleasure to meet you! I hope you are doing well today. :)

So having come to this point of considering name removal, and based on the brief explanation above, why shouldn't I have my name removed? What value does the church bring to me and vice versa?

Here is a short, but sincere answer to your question: You shouldn't remove your name from the Church because your reasons for doing so are false.

Regards,

Finrock

[Dark_Jedi]

To the first paragraph -- are you suggesting that what you've been going through for 8 years is worse than what the Savior went through?

To the second -- But If Not ? - general-conference

I don't know whatthe Savior went through. I know what the scriptures say, and apparently he suffered greatly in the garden, and I have no doubt the torture of the crucifixtion was not fun for anyone. In the bigger picture, I'm not sure there is/was a Savior or that one is necessary. If I'm right and we have a diest version of God as opposed to the LDS verion of God there would be no purpose in a Savior. Like I once believed in an LDS version of God, I once believed in the Savior - I can't say I do today. Either way, my experiences are mine and his are his and yours are yours, God or not.

And what if? What if I'm right and it's a diest God? That's exactly the issue. I already believe I wasted a good portion of my life on the church and church work (not to mention the tithes and offerings). Would you waste all that effort on any other what if? Should I invest in a sinking stock because it might go up? What if it doesn't? What if it is a diest God? What if there's no God? Are you just hedging your bets? I was born Catholic, maybe I should become an active Catholic just in case they're right. Or maybe the Jews are right? Or the Muslims? What if?

Edited October 11, 2012 by Dark_Jedi

[JudoMinja]

I know I can't relate entirely to your situation, since- as you've said- I have seen God work in His small ways to help me, while you still haven't seen His help in yours. However, I was hoping my story would point out that sometimes the help fails to come because we keep looking for it in the wrong place. Help in my situation didn't come until I gave up on trying to make the relationship work and asked for help getting away. That wasn't what I wanted. I wanted my husband to stop being violent and work with me toward temple worthiness. But what I wanted wasn't possible without said husband's cooperation- and God was not about to interfere with his agency to make it happen for me. Perhaps you are asking for something that God doesn't intend you to have, and you won't get His help until you give up on it and ask for something else.

I hold on to the experience I had to strengthen my faith now, because I haven't felt God's hand in my life anymore since. I'd love to remarry someone who will be a good husband and father so that I can have more children and raise a family. I'd love to put my education to use at a job that pays better than minimum wage. Yet, despite all my efforts, I have so far been denied both those desires around every bend. Once again, I'm left wondering if maybe the things I'm striving for are things God doesn't intend for me to have. Perhaps, I won't see his hand in my life again until I give up on those desires and seek something else.

However, I know that He does help us through the hands of others who are willing to listen to His promptings and follow through on their inspirations. I understand that it is hard for you to believe and see that for yourself, since you haven't had any personal experiences to verify that faith, and I know that it can be very hard to hold on to such faith when so many people around us who profess to believe and be his disciples fail to listen and act on the directions of the Holy Spirit. I'm guilty of such failing myself, but I'm working on trying to focus outside myself and be the answer to other people's prayers. I hold onto the hope that someday I'll see His miracles at work again, but until then, I need to just keep trudging on doing what I know to be right.

[Windseeker]

I think about the hardships I've endured and still have to endure. I wish sometimes that things could have been easier. You can skip this if you want, but Les Miserables by Victor Hugo has touched me more than anything I've ever read. I recommend you read it, study it. Your struggles remind me of this passage.

note: I'm not calling you convict or anything but just pointing to the struggle and choices we have

When Jean Valjean left the Bishop's house, he was, as we have seen, quite thrown out of everything that had

been his thought hitherto. He could not yield to the evidence of what was going on within him. He hardened

himself against the angelic action and the gentle words of the old man. "You have promised me to become an

honest man. I buy your soul. I take it away from the spirit of perversity; I give it to the good God."

This recurred to his mind unceasingly. To this celestial kindness he opposed pride, which is the fortress of evil

within us. He was indistinctly conscious that the pardon of this priest was the greatest assault and the most

formidable attack which had moved him yet; that his obduracy was finally settled if he resisted this clemency;

that if he yielded, he should be obliged to renounce that hatred with which the actions of other men had filled

his soul through so many years, and which pleased him; that this time it was necessary to conquer or to be

conquered; and that a struggle, a colossal and final struggle, had been begun between his viciousness and the

goodness of that man.

In the presence of these lights, he proceeded like a man who is intoxicated. As he walked thus with haggard

eyes, did he have a distinct perception of what might result to him from his adventure at D----? Did he

understand all those mysterious murmurs which warn or importune the spirit at certain moments of life? Did a

voice whisper in his ear that he had just passed the solemn hour of his destiny; that there no longer remained a

middle course for him; that if he were not henceforth the best of men, he would be the worst; that it behooved

him now, so to speak, to mount higher than the Bishop, or fall lower than the convict; that if he wished to

become good be must become an angel; that if he wished to remain evil, he must become a monster?

Jean Valjean wept for a long time. He wept burning tears, he sobbed with more weakness than a woman, with

more fright than a child.

As he wept, daylight penetrated more and more clearly into his soul; an extraordinary light; a light at once

ravishing and terrible. His past life, his first fault, his long expiation, his external brutishness, his internal

hardness, his dismissal to liberty, rejoicing in manifold plans of vengeance, what had happened to him at the

Bishop's, the last thing that he had done, that theft of forty sous from a child, a crime all the more cowardly,

and all the more monstrous since it had come after the Bishop's pardon,--all this recurred to his mind and

appeared clearly to him, but with a clearness which he had never hitherto witnessed. He examined his life, and

it seemed horrible to him; his soul, and it seemed frightful to him. In the meantime a gentle light rested over

this life and this soul. It seemed to him that he beheld Satan by the light of Paradise.

How many hours did he weep thus? What did he do after he had wept? Whither did he go! No one ever knew.

The only thing which seems to be authenticated is that that same night the carrier who served Grenoble at that

epoch, and who arrived at D---- about three o'clock in the morning, saw, as he traversed the street in which the

Bishop's residence was situated, a man in the attitude of prayer, kneeling on the pavement in the shadow, in

front of the door of Monseigneur Welcome.

Edited October 11, 2012 by Windseeker

[Anddenex]

Probably most of the people who have felt this withdrawal for an extended time aren't talking to members of the church about their experience. They're probably just living lives of blissful inactivity or just went ahead and decided none of it was true and had their names removed or committed sin that led to excommunication. That's why I think members don't get it. They haven't experienced it, nor do they know people who have experienced it because those people aren't visible.

My father is in a similar position as you, except that I don't believe he has thought about removing his name from the records of the church. He is also a convert.

I would like to say, thank you for joining the church and having a greater influence on your children than imaginable. Without my parents, both who are converts, I would not know the joy I now enjoy, nor would I understand the joy, without the experience of sorrow, and the depth of sorrow I have faced. I often wonder if what I have experienced in life is so that I may understand my father more, and help him.

When our first child was born, I worked a full-time job, and a part-time graveyard, while going to school full-time. Needless to say, we were busy.

Upon graduating, I went into sales, and was still working the part-time graveyard. I thought, I was going to do really well when a job passed my way. However it didn't, and as a result, in order to provide for bills, and two kids, I worked a full-time job, and a full-time graveyard. This still didn't keep our bills, and my wife fortunately was able to babysit a kid, and we were barely able to keep above water. During this time, it wasn't uncommon for me to go without sleep for 48 hours, and then the next day receive 2 hours of sleep, and then go another 24 hours without sleep.

This wasn't easy when a young man, across the street, no education, got into business with his Dad, and began making over 200K a year. It is hard not to be covetous in these situations.

Overtime, I thought finally my financial stress would be over, but it wasn't. The next company I worked for, which got me out of working the full-time graveyard, went under after six months, and I was back working a full-time job, and a part-time graveyard, now to provide for 3 kids.

Then I worked for the youngman I previously mentioned. It was very difficult time. However my next job, I thought was finally my Salvation (so to speak). I finally landed an excellent job. The company was having record profits. I could see myself finally in a position to provide quite nicely for my family of 4 kids now. I worked there six months, and they fired me. The wonderful excuses they came up with to let me go, were false, and it was insulting. These were supposed to be my brother's in Christ. They weren't. It was even more hurtful when the director tried to pretend he understood what I was feeling. I have come to thoroughly dislike empathetic pretenders. The worse thing, the two days before I was fired I received a spiritual impression, and was so excited to go to work. Two weeks before i was fired, my manager posted on facebook, "I won't be able to pay off my house in 5 years, so now it is 6 years." We barely missed our goal for sales. In order for this manager to keep up with his goal in paying off his house in six years, he needed to let one person go, fire them. I was that one person. This was very hard, very difficult and I surely felt alone.

I share with you one answer I received during this when I asked God why? "Trust." Which is why I share that we don't know what God has in store for us, but we must continue forward, in faith, and one day, all will be known.

As pertaining to your last comment, I think we would have more testimonies from people, if they would remain faithful, yet we do have many people who have suffered greatly and feel very alone, yet still trust without an answer.

A dear friend of mine, had the most unfortunate experience of watching their 4 year old pass away. They tried for 7 years to have another child. The doctors told them nothing was wrong with either of them, but they could not get pregnant. They tried adopting. The first chance they had, the young women said they could have the baby. On the way to the hospital the mother of the young women, convinced her daughter not to give up the baby. This was hard for them when they were told yes in the morning, and when they arrive to pick up the baby, low and behold, they were told no.

The amazing thing about this, is that they kept trying, and talk about a unique coincidence, the day they were able to adopt a baby, was on the same day there other son was baptized, nearly 7 years later.

Be not afraid to drink the cup our Heavenly Father gives us, no matter how bitter it may taste.

Peace brother, and hopefully one day you will receive what you have long waited for.

[Dark_Jedi]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and insights today. I have a soccer game to watch with a goalie and a midfielder to cheer. I'll check tomorrow.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

I understand the church is made up of imperfect humans, but the least God could do is inspire his servants to take some interest in my well being. I'm not looking for a sign, but God if really did care and revelation exists, wouldn't someone (bishop, stake president, home teacher, high priests group leader, ANYONE) have been inspired to take a real interest?

I understand what you are saying here because I have asked myself the same thing so many times. I don't have an answer for you. One thing that has brought me some comfort is knowing that when the Savior was in Gethsemane suffering even more than me, His friends slept too. He knows how we feel. If you are interested, I wrote a guest blog post about it once... While Friends Sleep : Segullah

I don't know you well enough to offer advice, but I will share my experience and hope that maybe it will be helpful.

My Bishop is a great help and support to me now, but it wasn't always that way. The first time I talked to him I told him that I was having urges to self-harm (yes, I wanted to cut myself, no I am not a teenager--it is very common among surivors of trauma). I don't remember what he said at that time, what could he say? But a couple weeks later, he called my husband and I in. I thought he wanted to see how I was doing (which I would have really appreciated!) but no, he called me in to say that one of our neighbors had complained to the missionaries about our messy yard. (Complaining neighbor also called the city, who came out and looked at it and said it is fine.) I was stunned.

After that I just avoided him for awhile, then with encouragement from a friend, who is a therapist, we ( my friend, and I) talked to him and let him know how let down I felt by his apparent lack of interest. He apologized and that was when our relationship began to heal and grow. It was slow, but worth it.

Now I met with him twice a week, because I have much need to "question my doubts", why do friends sleep? why do I feel like God's step child, why did gos allow me to be molested? and on and on. He is always inspired to say something that is helpful. Which is amazing considering how our relationship began.

I had to "train" my visiting teacher in a similar sort of way.

I tried but was not able to make any progress with my "home teacher"...sigh.

I hesitate to tell you, try again...try to teach them what you need, because I believe it is the equivilent of telling the wounded man in the parable of the Good Samaritan to get his bloody-self off the ground and chase after the Priest and explain that he really needs help. The wounded man should NOT have to do that. You should not have to do that, and I should not have to do that. But since there is a shortage of Good Samaritans, then it seems to be either that or die by the roadside.

I truly wish that there were more people in your life who were humble enough to put aside their own fears (I might say the wrong thing etc), open to the Spirit, and full of charity...

I'm so sorry that I don't have more for you. And of course, I didn't think that your feelings were because of sin....my pain, and struggles are not because of my sins either.

But knowing there is such a great need for Good Samaritans, won't you try again? You could be there for someone else and spare them the pain you have had to endure. I know it isn't fair. . .

Edited October 11, 2012 by LiterateParakeet

[Finrock]

Good afternoon Dark_Jedi! :)

Truth: Faith is a choice.

I've read most of your posts and in the ones I have read you assign the origin of the problems in your life to external sources. This may or may not be true. My first advice for you is to suggest that you do some introspection to discover if perhaps your issues stem from yourself. There are more sins than just the big ones. Pride has many faces. However, even if it is true that all of your issues in life are a result of someone or something else and you simply are an innocent victim (and I mean this sincerely), this much is still true: faith is a choice.

You have chosen to not have faith. Only you can choose to have faith. God can't help you unless you think he is in the business of forcing you to believe. Home teachers can't help you. Bishops can't help you. Nobody can help you if you choose not to have faith. On the question of your faith, you cannot justifiably blame anyone (God included) for your lack of faith. You are solely responsible for that.

Here is the challenge: We must learn to love God...unconditionally. That means that we will be loyal and faithful to God not because he gives us stuff (blessings, answers, etc.), but because we deeply love him. Faith means chosing to believe in God even when everything in your life sucks and you feel completely and abjectedly alone. Faith also means that we understand that no matter what happens in this life (and I mean that in an absolute sense) if we remain faithful to God then all will be made well in the end.

You can have this type of faith if you choose to. It is on you. And I bet you a million dollars that when you finally choose to reach out again and listen, you will find God has been there all along.

Regards,

Finrock

[Mute]

I'm not going to tell you whether or not you should remove your name but I honestly do not believe name removal is going to solve your problems. It sounds like you feel resentment towards God. You believe he is real, but you don't believe he is kind (at least not in your situation). You don't believe he answers prayers but you still believe in him. Is that correct? If so, is it that you feel hurt by these beliefs?

You're already not active. You haven't been active for 8 years. Is having your name off a membership record going to fix all that is troubling you? If you have your name removed, you may try to be happy. But if you can't let go, then you would continue to be effected by these thoughts. The fact that you're posting on a random forum, leads me to believe that it must bother you quite a bit. The fact that you are here asking leads me to think that you're not certain on your beliefs but more so just torn between the two possibilities of God answering prayers and being there or not. If you really think God is 100% like you described, I don't believe you would be on this forum. I think you have mixed feelings. Else, why would you be here asking the opinions of random strangers? It's not the people here that are going to change your mind though. It's those feelings you have inside of hurt and the thought you could be wrong that need fixing. That makes it so you can't just let go of your pain and move on. Name removal isn't going to fix that.

In one of your posts you said:

"Probably most of the people who have felt this withdrawal for an extended time aren't talking to members of the church about their experience. They're probably just living lives of blissful inactivity or just went ahead and decided none of it was true and had their names removed or committed sin that led to excommunication".

Around the time I had my name removed, I went to former lds sites. Lots of them. This was after I had already made up my mind to leave the lds faith. I felt like I had no one to talk to or relate to. I wanted someone to understand what it was that I was feeling and going through. What I found was very different.

They never let go. Many of the posters on these sites seemed to glorify their exit stories as a badge of honor and they were still clinging onto the church even 20 years after their names had been removed by either excommunication or asking for their names to be removed themselves. The vast majority of them were so filled with hate. They made exaggerated claims and kept up on what the lds faith was doing more than an active member would do. The motto of these sites were they were helping with "recovery" from mormonism. But they weren't recovering from anything. They were obsessed. The church troubled them just as much if not more than when they were actual members. Regardless of their reasons they claim, regardless of whether or not they're true (which I don't believe many of their stories are to the extent they describe but that is also true for many posts on this forum), they never let go. I don't personally buy their execuses they make for why they don't let go but that is besides the point.

The point is you won't fix your situation by simply leaving and you won't find your answers by asking here. People can tell you what they believe and it may influence you to a point but it's not going to change what you feel and believe inside. It's not going to provide you with the answer you're seeking. The only thing you'll find is people providing you with unsatisfactory answers that won't make you feel like you are really any closer to answering your question. You have to fix the feeling inside you. The only way I can think to do that is to try praying and reading again. You said you were inactive for the last 8 years. Why not give it your best shot to read and pray again? Do it long enough where you can say "okay, I've given it a fair chance" without intentionally looking for it to be false or true. Then make up your mind to either stay or leave. If you stay, stay for you and because it's what you personally believe. If you leave, let go and don't let it eat at you for the rest of your life. Otherwise, I don't believe you will ever have a peace of mind.

"After I quit working there this individual was called into the Bishopric of our ward. I don't pretend people can be one way, and then magically be another person in a ward calling. I was really concerned for myself and my family.

I went to the Stake President with my concern, not to get him released, but to let my leaders know that this was going to be difficult. The Stake President told me, although I went for counsel and understanding that I was "Weak, evil, and that my life was amiss." This was the counsel I received from a leader who was supposed to be my Shepherd. Not sure why some leaders think they can say anything they want, because they are leaders.

It took me back, here I was, 4 months before this serving as the EQP, I magnify my callings, I pay an honest tithe and fast offerings, read my scriptures, prayed daily, and 3 months prior to this I was also serving in the Temple.

Either way, why did God allow a Shepherd to say such things? I mean if I was so weak, evil, and amiss doing everything I have been commanded to do (of course, acknowledging human weakness), was there any hope for me?"

I know how it is to lose faith in church leaders. I left the lds faith 9 years ago. At age 18, I felt extremely disheartened and depressed in my life. I fasted for 3 days and then went to the bishop of my ward. I just broke down into tears despite seldom ever crying. I had to hand him a piece of paper with what I wanted to say because I couldn't speak. I just cried uncontrollably. After he read it, I asked the bishop for a blessing of comfort. In it, the strangest thing happened. The bishop started talking about Mcdonalds during the blessing. I didn't know what to make of it. Maybe the bishop had been fasting longer than I had. Bottom line, it bothered me. I thought possibly it was just a weird day for the bishop and perhaps the stake president could help me if I could just talk to him. So I asked another bishop how to talk to the stake president. The bishop's response was very cruel and harsh. He told me if I had a problem with what was said to me that I should leave the church and have my name removed. That was probably the last thing I was expecting to happen. I had never told this bishop any detail other than I was troubled by an encounter with my bishop. Then he treated me with contempt. I felt lost after this. I didn't know what to think. Were these not men of God I thought? If God is leading these people, would he not speak through them to communicate to me and help me in my time of most need? I thought to myself “Is God even real?” Were the impressions I had of a loving God real? Was he siding with the church? Was I in the wrong? Was there anyone out there? Ultimately, I didn't know. I felt alone.

I didn't feel like I had anyone to turn to. I was not close to my family. When I tried to talk to them, I didn't feel like they understood me or related to my situation. So I didn't let them know how unhappy I was or the things that had transpired with the bishops. As the months went by, many more experiences caused my faith to drastically diminish. I doubted and questioned everything. The reflection that everything I had once believed was not true was earth shattering to me and I felt my world come tumbling down. Confusion over took me to where I started to doubt my own sanity. Had I been living a lie all this time? The thought was almost more than I could bear.

I had lost faith in virtually everything of importance to me. My religion, the belief that God was real, my family, myself and even this life in general was no longer how I had once seen it. A veil had crept over my eyes and to see anything in a positive manner was almost impossible for me. To further my despair, I decided to "celebrate" this time by removing my name from the religion I had grown up in as a step towards ending it all and nearing myself closer to oblivion.

On my 19th birthday, I met with a new bishop of our ward. I handed him a one sentence paper asking for my name to be removed. When he asked me why I wanted to do that, I told him my reasons were personal and that I did not wish to share them. The bishop told me that just as people must be of the age of accountability to join, so must they be to leave and that unless I provided him with my reasons, he would not honor my request to leave. He then accused me of participating in various sins which I was not guilty of. This threw me through quite a loop and I didn't find out why this happened until years later. But at the time, I honestly started to wonder if I really was in a cult as some people claimed the church was. I thought to myself "this proves it then, there really isn't anything there and this is something to get out of" but I didn't know why it was happening.

I ended up going around the bishop and writing directly to Salt Lake headquarters with my resignation letter, which they in turn sent to the stake president. At the end of each month, I'd call the stake president and ask him if he took care of my resignation letter and each time he told me he had not but that he would get right on it. After nine months of still no results, I called Salt Lake to see if they could ask him to take care of it, which he promptly did. It took a total of two years to have my name removed. Several years later, I found out why I had received so much resistance in having my name removed. My father and one of my brothers found out from a friend of mine that I planned to have my name removed. So they asked the bishop not to honor my request. The reason the bishop accused me of sins I was not guilty of was because my brother was guilty of them and he told the bishop he figured I was too. I still don't think what happened was right and I'd find it very difficult for me to have as much faith in church leaders as I did before but you can still move past this.

Can a person still have faith in church leaders even after really bad things happen? I believe you can have faith in them being "tools used by God when they listen to the spirit" but that wouldn't mean their every action is collinear with God all the time. If the church is true, I don't believe bishops are placed in power so that everything they do can be word for word the act of God. I think they're used to help but ultimately it would be the spirit and God that should be who you go and listen to. If the spirit is real, then you would need it in order to tell what is inspired and what is not. You would need it to lead you on which way to go or what to do. If it is real, then I believe that would be your best tool to have. That could make sure you're not lead astray and protected even in times that are difficult in your faith.

"Then I saw an ad in the paper for a position at a nearby company for the job I actually wanted. Seeing as I was happy where I was, I decided to pray about it with the possibility that this might be what I was supposed to do. I felt very strongly - and let me emphasize that - that I should pursue that position. I have equated this feeling with some of the most profound spiritual experiences of my life (baptism, temple marriage) - it was that strong, despite the fact that I actually did have some misgivings about it and my boss vehemently tried to talk me out of it. I was, however, determined to do what I thought God wanted me to do. I interviewed with three other candidates, and quite literally blew them away - I was far and away the best candidate and was hired.

What I didn't know at the time (although others, including my former boss, did) was that this company had someone in house they were grooming for this position and just needed a place holder until he was ready. That happened in less than 2 years, the last part of which were filled with lies and innuendo by this group of aforementioned evil doers that damaged my reputation, and, when finally fired made me all but unemployable in that field.

That's only the beginning - there's far more deeper and complex issues the followed. But it is the root of the issue. God knew this was going to happen when I was inspired to do this. I was happy where I was and have no doubt I would still be there today had I not been inspired to do that - again, with God undoubtedly knowing the outcome.

So did God do this to me? The argument culd be made that yes, he did, or no, that I followed my agency. It could be argured that I mistook that feeling or that it was a deception by Satan. (If that's true, than how do I know I didn't mistake it at the first missionary dicussion, or baptism, etc.?) And I wouldn't have done this without God's approval.

Again, there is much more that happened after this that led me to where I am today, but in the first part I remained active and confident that God would fix the problem, I am now neither active, nor confident that God fixes any problems. And if asked now I would have a whole list of things I would have done differently in my life, including joining the church itself."

How does someone recognize the Holy Ghost? Is it just the first impression in our mind? Is it any good feeling we may have? In asking people to describe what the holy ghost felt like with them, I've heard explanations that are so widefully different that I had a hard time believing that most really knew what they were talking about. I think a lot of people believe in the church and that belief can be very strong. I believe they feel like they know but is that knowing?

I've had strong impressions from reading scriptures before. I've also had emotionally positive thoughts and feelings from watching movies (many of which were R rated), reading books, listening to music etc. It was the principles, the uplifting stories and the thoughts and feelings that came to my mind in them that made me feel good. Hell, I felt pretty good watching fictional movies such as Star Wars. In the same way, I felt good about stories, principles and actions by those talked of in the Book of Mormon. They were inspiring to me. I don't know if that makes the stories true though. I believed in them but I didn't "know". Are these things the holy ghost? Lets look at what the Book of Mormon said on the subject.

Alma 32: 28 Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.

29 Now behold, would not this increase your faith? I say unto you, Yea; nevertheless it hath not grown up to a perfect knowledge.

30 But behold, as the seed swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, then you must needs say that the seed is good; for behold it swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow. And now, behold, will not this strengthen your faith? Yea, it will strengthen your faith: for ye will say I know that this is a good seed; for behold it sprouteth and beginneth to grow.

31 And now, behold, are ye sure that this is a good seed? I say unto you, Yea; for every seed bringeth forth unto its own likeness.

32 Therefore, if a seed groweth it is good, but if it groweth not, behold it is not good, therefore it is cast away.

33 And now, behold, because ye have tried the experiment, and planted the seed, and it swelleth and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, ye must needs know that the seed is good.

34 And now, behold, is your knowledge perfect? Yea, your knowledge is perfect in that thing, and your faith is dormant; and this because you know, for ye know that the word hath swelled your souls, and ye also know that it hath sprouted up, that your understanding doth begin to be enlightened, and your mind doth begin to expand.

35 O then, is not this real? I say unto you, Yea, because it is alight; and whatsoever is light, is good, because it is discernible, therefore ye must know that it is good; and now behold, after ye have tasted this light is your knowledge perfect?

36 Behold I say unto you, Nay; neither must ye lay aside your faith, for ye have only exercised your faith to plant the seed that ye might try the experiment to know if the seed was good.

Sometimes when I read, it did feel like I "knew". It felt like my understanding was growing and enlightening. It made me feel good to think about it. That to me would be the closest thing to the spirit I know of but I could not call it knowing. More like following your heart. Take the Land Before Time. When Little Foot's mother says to him "Some things you see with your eyes, others with your heart". That's kind of what it's like. It was just what I felt was right. It's just thoughts and feelings can be deceiving and difficult to recognize and understand. So I'm extremely hesitant to say I "know" something based on that alone without considering all the possibilities. It was just what I felt was right. When I start trying to say my impressions are from God, that is a dangerous slope. How many people have you seen claiming to speak for God or that God is telling them something that doesn't feel right to you? If you're saying you know something from God, or the Holy Ghost is telling you something, you had better be right. I don't want to lead people astray because I didn't understand what it was I was experiencing. Perhaps, the longer you spend on it, reading scriptures as Alma says, it will grow. If it does that, then is it not real? Will you not come to fully understand it? Then maybe you would know your answer.

[Anddenex]

But I also have never withdrawn myself from my children for 20% of their lives (10/50) nor 1/3 of their lives (10 years of the 34 of my adult life).

That's why I think members don't get it. They haven't experienced it, nor do they know people who have experienced it because those people aren't visible.

I recognize what you are saying about having never withdrawn yourself from your children for a specific percentage of their lives. I would like to address to questions that are for your consideration.

1. How long did we live with God before this life?

2. Time is very insignificant to God, since He is eternal, when looking through His eyes, and the unspecified time pre mortal, mortal, and post mortal has He withdrawn from you even for 20% of your life time?

You may already have thought of these questions yourselves.

As pertaining to your last question, I would agree with you pertaining to your first statement, they haven't experienced it.

However, as pertaining to your last statement, I would disagree. I know quite a few people who have suffered, are faithful, and others who have suffered greatly and are inactive.

[ztodd]

Hello Dark_Jedi, I can really feel of your struggle and I hope to maybe help out a little.

Sounds like you've been having a real hard time with believing or having patience with Heavenly Father's justice and mercy, and with being able to forgive those who have wronged you. I know these can be very hard things to come to grips with. We just watched "October Baby" which has a very powerful message about forgiveness. It's a different circumstance in that movie, but after watching it I totally felt that forgiveness is kind of what this life is all about. It's what we hope to have from God, and so it's what we should extend to others. I hope you'll look it up and think about watching it maybe.

I believe (have faith) in the wisdom of God when He said "I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men." Even though it's hard, maybe even the hardest principle sometimes to embrace, I believe it can have the most powerful effect on us when we are able to change our hearts enough to do it.

A couple other feelings I had from your experiences- I certainly don't mean to judge you, just hope to express feelings that might help -

You said nothing like checking a PM leading to a life changing event has ever happened for you, and you've waited for years. Well, maybe Heavenly Father has tried, but you weren't ready? ... Maybe He has actually been waiting for you for all this time.

You said "that God hasn't inspired someone to check their PM, or put me in the right place at the right time to meet that one person, or inspired that one person to say that thing that clicks, or caught my eye with that Ensign article that makes me go "Wow" and on and on. I thought he would." You say the LDS God would not do that to anyone.

I understand those are your feelings... but you know what, maybe He actually has tried to do those things. But whether or not you feel that He has chosen to adequately give you these blessings, the feeling I get is that you are blaming God for consequences of your own choices. Several here have repeated to you the principle that Heavenly Father will not take away agency from His children. Let me offer something I learned recently about agency- it's not just the freedom to choose. Agency also includes the responsibility to live with the consequences of those choices. I believe that the plan of Satan was actually more about taking away the consequences of our choices from us, than actually taking away our freedom to choose.

I can't help but feel that when there is a loss of the Spirit for just an extended time, there must be a need for repentance. Again, I'm not here to judge you- I have plenty of need for it myself- plenty of things that you could probably be justified in lecturing me about.

However you choose to proceed going forward, I hope you'll know that the people in your life do care about you- and I would bet they have even been inspired to try to reach out to you, but for whatever reason- maybe it was their fault- maybe fear got the best of them- they didn't carry through. This happens to me more than I want to admit.

As my mom used to always tell us though, don't worry about what anyone else does- only worry about your own actions. I hope you're not offended by any of this- I only want to try to help.

[Dark_Jedi]

OP here. I did read the posts yesterday, but couldn't reply. So here goes:

@Finrock: Based on what little is posted here, you really can't understand the depth of what is happening inside of me. I really haven't gone into detail about what was happening for the period of time when I was remaining faithful (a period of about 3 years, by the way) or the intervening time and was still devoid of God's help. Sure, I have chosen not to have faith because it wasn't working - this is part of the reason I don't go to church, as well (the main reason being I can't sit and listen to people who don't know what they're talking about). And during this eight years I have reached out (my wife and I have been to counseling regarding this) and I believe it was a sincere, faithful reaching out (in fact there is a well-known scripture in the BOM that is very similar to what I have said repeatedly). PM me and I will tell you where to send the million.

@Mute: No, name removal won't solve all of my problems and will undoubtedly create new ones. But it may help this internal conflict that tears me apart (I can relate to your expressions about being totally lost and alone). I've looked at those exMormon sites as well, not much there that relates to me and filled with those who never believed to begin with (and I agree much of what's there is likely not truthful). As I stated to Finrock, it's not like I haven't opened the scriptures or prayed in the last 8 years - I have often done so, and nothing changes. Your second quote wasn't by me, it was written by someone in answer to me. I haven't had experiences like that (or yours - bizarre), but based on the experiences I have had, I believe that most church leaders are wholly uninspired (or perhaps just extremely cowardly). Everyone's experiences with the Spirit and personal revelation is different, and emotion (like those felt during a movie or music) plays a part in that experience. For me, there was a distinct difference in the movie type emotion (I am a huge Star Wars fan, as you might guess) and the spiritual link I felt when I was baptized, married, etc. This was different, and much stronger than emotion alone. That said, and putting that all together, that's one of my huge doubts - how do I now really know what's the Spirit and what isn't? If all of the stronger, unique feeling I had was the Spirit, then God set me up for that life changing event - which doctrine teaches God wouldn't do. If I misinterpreted it, then how am I to know I didn't misinterpret everything else?

@Anddenex: Thanks again for the insightfulness. I did qualify my statements with an explanation that I was referring to life here being short. Please also understand the domino effect I have alluded to - if God really did just create us and let us go, there is no need for a Savior because there was no fall and there is no sin, hence whatever afterlife there is is (at least) very different from church teachings, and so on and so on.... And it didn't say what I believe applies to all who have suffered - I specifically said those who have suffered withdrawal for an extended period (similar to mine). I don't know anyone who has experienced a drought of the Spirit like this. I, too, know many people on both sides of the tracks as far as suffering and activity/faithfulness.

@ztodd: Simply saying you aren't judging doesn't make it so. While you say you aren't judging you go on to call me to repentance, state that this is of my own doing, and accuse me of not noticing God's attempts. That said, I do admit that I sometimes have a problem with forgiveness, but not in general, in this specific instance, though, yes - but I have made progress (but I'm not there yet). This is of my doing - but because I followed what I believed was an unmistakable impression from God to do what I thought he wanted me to do - I didn't particularly want to do it. And, honestly, don't you think over an 8 (really 11) year period if there was one of those miraculous little incidents I couldn't have helped but notice? I have never rejected a visit, phone call, letter, or email from any member of the church, and I have never been dismissive of them or argumentative in any way. Some of them have listened to me (I don't open up fully to people during one, short contact) and I have always politely listened to them - unlike here with total strangers where I do offer rebuttals. I do read scriptures (not regularly), I do look at the Ensign, I do catch General Conference, I do use the church websites. How much more open (and clearly ready) can I be? (Don't even go there with go to church - the answer clearly is not there.)

To all (especially those who wonder why I'm turning to strangers): I lurked here for awhile before I registered and posted. I came to the conclusion that maybe strangers were who I needed to turn to because my "friends" and church "leaders" for whatever reason are unable or unwilling to be forthright. I understand that - they are unwilling and unwanting to offend, or perhaps just afraid of what I will say (which is baseless, I might add). I do appreciate those who have been sincere and courageous here. Quite honestly I have gotten more from this experience than I expected, and I did expect more of those pat answers than I have gotten (I am thankful to those who have resisted the urge and have ignored the others for the most part).

[Chrissy3818]

I have a similar experience going on and read through a few of your posts. I don't think you should have your named removed from the church and I don't think you should give up trying. Yes that is the hard part... Believe me I struggle (like you) in search of answers and half the time I feel like I am getting none and things are getting worse.

Let me explain my situation to see if you can relate to it, I may be a teen, but I think you may be able to relate in the trial sense.

After moving in 2011 and then again in 2012 (I will then again move in 2013 for college). Also, with my mom falling away 1 1/2 months ago and my older brother 1 year ago. I have almost been going to church alone, with my younger sibling.

After the first move I began questioning things and no longer knew if the church was true (2 years ago) and it just went down hill from there one move after the other.

Now I really don't know, but I have this strong want to know. So I have been praying to know and asking for help since I joined this sight). I began fasting to know for almost 2 months on and off (usually 3 or 4 days a week) and nothing...

I talk to friends who are in the church but never church members because I think they are a little too judgmental and will shun me for being an unbeliever.

I watched all of General Conference in hopes for answers and got the feeling it was true, but am still it is. I just decided to go to church and try to gain a testimony of it. (at this point my mom is looking into other churches to go to and she will be taking my younger brother with her, so I'll be going alone) I feel like things are getting worse for me instead of better.

I try so hard to have faith, but I feel as if something is wrong with me because I am not being answered. I look through my life and repent for anything that needs to be repented (I didn't make nay huge sins) and still nothing...

Today as of now, I am so lost and I feel like crying because I have no one. if I talk to church members I may be judge and then rumors will spread that I am the unbeliever.

I just want to pack up my bags and leave for college and never return to my old life (my living situations are fine, I am just so lost they are not helping) and hope that by going to BYUI I will figure things out (well see).

I think we both are unsure of what to believe or what is right (I know I do). But I say maybe its not time for our prayers to be answered. I don't know what is going through God's head or why he isn't answering, but I think we should just keep going to church, praying and reading the scriptures and wait and wait if we have to... Just keep bugging him and maybe he'll get tired of us and give us the answer (like a little child who bugs the mom for another cookie).

I have now started asking God what he wants me to do and I try to listen and do what he wants me to do (sometimes I fail with laziness). Every-time I get the feeling I need to fast and pray, I feel like I am withering away because I am fasting so much... (This week it was Wednesday, Thursday, Friday and now today) (took a break yesterday because I needed it).

I wish he would just give me the answer with in a month like I hear others getting, but I'm not. And you know what. I honestly don't know but I think it's true what my mom says. "I bet you half or 2/3 of those people in church, don't have a real testimony, they are just going off of others.) I know I did. How? Because I was going off of my mom and once she fell away I began questioning. How do we know what she said is true? We don't, not until their source of testimony falls away like mine does.

(sorry to make this long, I was hoping it would be shorter)

[ztodd]

Sorry you felt I was judging you Dark_Jedi, I only meant to help. You're right - I'm in no position to decide if your sins are what's keeping God from answering you. I just wanted to offer suggestions, just in case. If it is the case, then it's your choice if you continue to take offense or if you try to do what you need to in order to let the Spirit speak to you.

Curious- why do you think the answer is obviously not at church?

You ask "How much more open (and clearly ready) can I be?" You probably didn't really want me to answer that but since you did ask... and I don't want you to think again that I'm judging you, so let me say it this way- if I were in your position (and I kind of have been, but not exactly the same of course), then I would decide to read the Book of Mormon every day, and maybe the Bible every day too. And not just read, but study them- get out the red pencil and underline stuff, and make notes- really put in the effort. "Feast upon the words of Christ" (2 Ne 32:3) I might use the study guides like the Topical index and Bible dictionary for topics I get interested in.

I'd study Moroni's promise before and after this whole experiment. I'd pray every morning and every night, sincerely with real intent. I'd do my best to "cry unto the Lord" as in Alma 34; as in all the scriptures really- so often when describing prayers of the prophets, it is described as crying unto the Lord. We need to raise up our voices in mighty prayer, so to speak, to show the Lord we are serious about getting an answer. And if we are serious about that, we will be serious about acting on that answer we get. To show the Lord our faith, I believe I would have to had already begun to act as if it were true. The Lord requires our faith (this is an action word)- and then we receive the witness.

Just keep bugging him and maybe he'll get tired of us and give us the answer (like a little child who bugs the mom for another cookie).

I think that's actually a good idea- I think we can learn that from Luke 18-

1 And he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to faint;

2 Saying, There was in a city a judge, which feared not God, neither regarded man:

3 And there was a widow in that city; and she came unto him, saying, Avenge me of mine adversary.

4 And he would not for a while: but afterward he said within himself, Though I fear not God, nor regard man;

5 Yet because this widow troubleth me, I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me.

6 And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust judge saith.

7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

[Anddenex]

@Anddenex: Please also understand the domino effect I have alluded to - if God really did just create us and let us go, there is no need for a Savior because there was no fall and there is no sin, hence whatever afterlife there is is (at least) very different from church teachings, and so on and so on.... And it didn't say what I believe applies to all who have suffered - I specifically said those who have suffered withdrawal for an extended period (similar to mine). I don't know anyone who has experienced a drought of the Spirit like this. I, too, know many people on both sides of the tracks as far as suffering and activity/faithfulness.

I definitely understand the "domino effect" you have alluded to and would agree with the assessment. In my dialogues with atheist, and deists, this is a common thread that tends to be a major part of the debate.

This domino affect mentioned is usually the byproduct of those who recognize the evil in this world, and wonder how a "loving God" would allow so much misery in life. Why would he stay his hand? No good parent would stay their hand like this.

I think the idea, or paradigm shift with what you have faced is a very natural slide from where you stand. The God you believe in, doesn't seem to be the God you believe in, for many years it appears he is withdrawn. Does he really care?

I, myself, would actually be a deist if not for the experiences I have received. I don't see, personally, an agnostic or atheist mentality as rational, it is absurd to me.

I will speak only for myself in this next phrase of comments, seeing I don't really know your heart or mind. The trials and tribulations I have faced have really allowed me to see myself for who I truly am. I saw myself as a trusting person, a trusting faithful LDS member until on my knees the answer I was given, "Trust." I thought I knew what trust was until that answer came. I was given a little more data as to who I really was and where I was pretending.

I remember one time an answer took three years for me to finally be in a position where my heart and mind was able to hear this still small voice. I recognize 3 years is almost three times your heart ache, however this seemed like an eternity, and now I look back and think "3 years, ha, not so long...I was such a stubborn child." (note, my wife still thinks I am a stubborn child at times, can you believe her??? )

My personal thoughts, I believe at times when God withdraws, or it appears as God has withdrawn is to allow me to see who I truly am, verses who I am trying to become like.

As I mentioned, this last phrase I am only speaking for myself, not in any attempt to say this is how you are feeling.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

This domino affect mentioned is usually the byproduct of those who recognize the evil in this world, and wonder how a "loving God" would allow so much misery in life. Why would he stay his hand? No good parent would stay their hand like this.

This is a tough question, I have struggled with it as well. I understand that God can't just "zap" all the bad guys and stop them from doing wrong...but my abuse lasted for years. Couldn't someone have been prompted to see what was going on?

Couldn't ward members be prompted to be more helpful now?

Why have I been left, largely alone, to deal with such an enormous burden? People talk about a loving "Father in Heaven", but that is hard for me to understand considering I have not had a loving father on earth, and I feel so abandoned by Him now.

I don't know if this will help Dark Jedi...but here is how I am dealing with those questions. I think about the Savior, His friends slept during His hour of need also. I felt alone and abandoned on the cross, as evidenced by him saying, "My God, My God why hast thour forsaken me?" He suffered even more than me in Gethsemane. And....a major helping point is what the Lord said to Joseph Smith, "thy suffering shall be for a small moment".

THAT is how I reconcile these questions. To some that may seem like a "cop-out", but to me not believing in God at all (then what is this suffering for? at least with the small moment idea there is a purpose). Believing in the domino theory is equally unacceptable because the suffering is for naught. I think any belief, even atheism, requires some faith, so I chose to have faith in the idea that gives me hope that their is some meaning, some purpose for the pain. Do you know what I mean?

ETA (edited to add): Lately I have found much comfort in a talk by Neal A Maxwell called But for a Small Moment. Here is a quote from it:

If it is also true (in some way we don't understand) that the cavity which suffering carves into our souls will one day also be the receptacle of joy, how infinitely greater Jesus' capacity for joy, when he said, after his resurrection, "Behold, my joy is full." How very, very full, indeed, his joy must have been!

I am holding on to hope that that is true...that the deep cavity carved in my heart by pain will someday be filled with joy.

I love that we have the opportunity to listen to or read this speech. I have done both and I prefer to listen to it because I can hear a gentleness in his voice when he speaks, that I think is somewhat lost in the written version. When I hear him speak the words, I hear a kindness and love, that coupled with what he says makes me feel, "he really gets it". And if I can feel that love and kindness from him, an imperfect human, then I have hope that I can someday feel that love and gentleness from Heavenly Father and Christ. There was a time I did feel it...it just seems like eons ago. I didn't lose it through sin, through the complexities of someone else's sin, and mental illness (PTSD and dissociation). Losing one's connection with God through no fault of one's own is, I believe, what it means to truly have the jaws of Hell gap after you. And yet the Lord promises that it will all be worth it. I'm holding on to that. Why? Because if I'm wrong then I will get what the atheists believe....nothing. But if I am right, then I have a hope that carries me along now, and will reward me greatly in the future. Won't you consider the possibility of that hope too?

Here's the link to Elder Maxwell's talk..."listen" to it. :)

Speeches

Edited October 15, 2012 by LiterateParakeet

[HiJolly]

...But I also have never withdrawn myself from my children for 20% of their lives (10/50) nor 1/3 of their lives (10 years of the 34 of my adult life).

Probably most of the people who have felt this withdrawal for an extended time aren't talking to members of the church about their experience. They're probably just living lives of blissful inactivity or just went ahead and decided none of it was true and had their names removed or committed sin that led to excommunication. That's why I think members don't get it. They haven't experienced it, nor do they know people who have experienced it because those people aren't visible.

I am one of those who has felt the withdrawal of the Holy Ghost for almost 10 years. In my case it was when I denied the Holy Ghosts' careful teachings to me that caused the rift. And it wasn't healed until I humbled myself and my heart changed to where I could accept the truth. Then He waited a bit, and proceeded with my education.

Not the same case at all, I know. But I thought I'd throw that into the thread, FWIW.

As to a God who does not interfere. I know it. I had an experience long ago where God revealed to me a problem involving my wife's sisters' husband's sister. I didn't (no, couldn't) act to help her and she lived a hell of a life for another 10 to 15 years. I was in anguish for years over all this, but then God taught me the lesson I needed to learn (different from the above '10 year' deal). One tender mercy was that after it all was over, I confessed my failure to act on her behalf, and she freely forgave me. I still don't understand how she could forgive me, after all the exquisite, life-threatening pain and abuse she'd experienced.

The lesson was about Theodicy, which is what is troubling you, Dark_Jedi.

God _does_ interfere, but on His terms alone. As far as I can tell, His terms include a requirement of faith. Trust. And this faith must be held in the sub-conscious mind: it is NOT belief. It is a 'gift' from God and cannot be obtained any other way, than by following His promptings and commandments (which for an LDS Church member also includes following the counsel and teachings of Church leaders). And of course a whole bucket load of other related things, like Psalms 24:3-4.

Add to that, the scriptures and the journals of prophets are very clear that we as mortals always struggle with being able to correctly interpret God's working with us. Promptings, revelation, even visions are subject to misinterpretations ALL THE TIME, for ALL MORTALS, even prophets. As Joseph remarked more than once. Like parents who have children don't get 'owner's manuals', we too don't get 'revelation manuals'. This is why we "walk by faith" and "see through a glass darkly". Yeah, it's a pain. Especially when our needs are great.

Miracles are out there, I've seen a few. And the scriptures are very careful to mention that some have one 'gift', and others have other 'gifts', and there's really no explanation given for the details. It just is, from the mortal perspective.

I don't know what else to say, at this point, DJ. Best wishes to you.

HiJolly

[Finrock]

Good afternoon Dark_Jedi. I hope you are having a good day! :)

@Finrock: Based on what little is posted here, you really can't understand the depth of what is happening inside of me. I really haven't gone into detail about what was happening for the period of time when I was remaining faithful (a period of about 3 years, by the way) or the intervening time and was still devoid of God's help. Sure, I have chosen not to have faith because it wasn't working - this is part of the reason I don't go to church, as well (the main reason being I can't sit and listen to people who don't know what they're talking about). And during this eight years I have reached out (my wife and I have been to counseling regarding this) and I believe it was a sincere, faithful reaching out (in fact there is a well-known scripture in the BOM that is very similar to what I have said repeatedly). PM me and I will tell you where to send the million.

I can't know precisely how you've experienced things but I do know that "there [has] no temptation taken you but such as is common to man" (1 Cor. 10:13) and I know that you do not have a monopoly on suffering and trials and feeling like you have been abandoned.

Now, you addressed my point about faith being a choice. However, you did not address my other point about us learning to not place conditions upon God.

"Here is the challenge: We must learn to love God...unconditionally. That means that we will be loyal and faithful to God not because he gives us stuff (blessings, answers, etc.), but because we deeply love him. Faith means chosing to believe in God even when everything in your life sucks and you feel completely and abjectedly alone. Faith also means that we understand that no matter what happens in this life (and I mean that in an absolute sense) if we remain faithful to God then all will be made well in the end."

You seem to be arguing that your experience is unique. That it is so exceptional that the normal advice and the normal things do not apply. That you've somehow exhausted the limits of patience and you are now justified in your lack of faith. As hard as your situation may be to you I do not see anything exceptional about your experience that makes it above the atonement or above eternal principles.

Finally, consider the words of Paul:

"And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure" (2 Cor. 12:7).

Sometimes, our trial might just be a "thorn in the flesh" that will not be taken away. Sometimes our "thorn" will be with us for the rest of our life in order so that we can remain humble and so that we will remember that we need God in our life.

Faith, repentance, baptism, gift of the holy ghost, and endure to the end.

Regards,

Finrock

Edited October 16, 2012 by Finrock
Grammar.

[bythelake]

Dark Jedi,

I am also a convert, so I know the difference between having the fullness of the gospel and not having it. I joined at 17, and while I may have had a few minor trials during my single years, I consider that they were nothing, compared to those after marrying and having a family.

A thought comes to mind from a conference talk. "Life is hard, not the gospel."

I can't imagine inactivity ever being "blissful". You still have trials, just less tools with which to deal with them.

In regards to the question about your children, you said "yes", but you had never left them for 1/5 of their lives. 10 out of 50 years. You also mentioned that you had been inactive for 8-9 years. So, after your trials began, you were only active for 1 year? I think the question is, who left who? How can you tell he has left you, if you have taken yourself away from him? Often, when we feel less close to God, it is due to us, not him. I've experienced that, also. It's easy to feel, when going through trials.

I can't imagine nourishment-wise, going without the Church for 8-9 years. I, too, have trials, and often feel overwhelmed by them. It's easy to let my perspective start to get off track; and without the gospel, it's harder to get it back on track.

From the talk I mentioned:

The Lord’s way is not hard. Life is hard, not the gospel. “There is an opposition in all things,”

everywhere, for everyone. Life is hard for all of us, but life is also simple. We have only two choices. We can either follow the Lord and be endowed with His power and have peace, light, strength, knowledge, confidence, love, and joy, or we can go some other way, any other way, whatever other way, and go it alone—without His support, without His power, without guidance, in darkness, turmoil, doubt, grief, and despair. And I ask, which way is easier?

He said, “Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

“Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; … and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

“For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”

Life is hard, but life is simple. Get on the path and never, ever give up. You never give up. You just keep on going. You don’t quit, and you will make it."