Why Mormon?

[tektronik]

*WARNING* This thread contains topics of adult nature. There's nothing profane or explicit, but you might not want your 13 year old to read this.

Hi everyone.

At the moment, I am considering joining the LDS church.

My previous experiences with faith:

I was raised as a Catholic, and attended church weekly until I was around 5 (I moved and had to transfer to public school). I did end up getting my holy communion (still not sure what the significance of that is) at age 7 or so, but that was my last religious event. I don't remember anything from Sunday School, except that I was bored to tears from it. No one in my family is Mormon, and I'm pretty sure my dad considers it a cult.

What sparked my interest in joining:

In the past, I have experimented with drugs; I've never used narcotics, but I have abused various herbal and hallucinogenic compounds. I realized about a year and a half ago that doing these things was a long road to nowhere, and I quit doing hallucinogenics and other "harder" drugs, and significantly reduced the amount of weed I smoked. 5 months later I had quit smoking weed altogether, but I was still drinking alcohol.

About a month ago I was at a party, and we were playing a drinking game. Luck was not on my side that night however, and I ended up drinking much more than I intended to. The last thing I remember was cursing out everyone at the table (one of the rules was you had to drink every time you cursed).

I woke up the next morning, and was immediately concerned because I did not remember going to bed. I asked my buddy what happened and he told me I pounded most of a (1.75L) handle of vodka, spent half an hour in a gas mask with a bong hooked up to it, almost boinked the ugliest girl at the party, and was about to leave with someone I didn't even know to go pick up some ecstasy before my buddy pulled me aside and made me go to bed.

That was the second most sobering moment of my life. Before, I had had a near death experience while on the effects of drugs, which "scared me sober" enough to stop doing hallucinogenics. After hearing my buddy's recollection of the events that night, I realized that alcohol is just another drug, and by extension, a danger. Not only did it make me break a promise I made to myself and my family about not doing drugs, but I could have easily gotten in my truck and gone out and killed someone.

I have not had a drop of alcohol since, and I have had little trouble quitting; I didn't drink every day so I didn't have any withdrawals.

However, the whole event got me thinking about the broad topics of life: what is the meaning of life, is there a god, is everything predetermined or does free will exist, ect.

Why am I considering becoming Mormon?

I'm drawn to Mormonism because, while it has its own stigmata, it is more distant to the Vatican than the other sects of Christianity (I've never heard of a Mormon priest molesting anyone). Mormonism also has the most strict adherence to its own rules, something that Catholicism severely lacks.

Also, none of the other religions really appeal to me. Islam is most definitely a tool devised to allow its leader to kill anyone they don't like through jihad. Buddhism preaches about wanting nothing to be the peak of existence. I'd lump Judaism with the other sects of Christianity because they're practically the same thing.

My reservations about joining:

Until this point I had written god off as a figment of someone's imagination, or worse: being an invented idea that was used to control people and get money from them. Now, I'm not so sure. Being the logical, realistic person that I am, it's frustrating not being able to objectively say whether something is real or not. There is no evidence to show that god does or does-not exist, but something makes me a bit skeptical of the scientific theory that all we are as people (memories, feelings, dispositions) is caused purely by electrical impulses in the brain. I believe that it's possible that everyone has a spirit, and extrapolating that out, there could be a lead spirit that we define as a god. However, I find it hard to believe that there is some guy sitting in heaven/space directing events at his whim.

I'm also leery of so-called prophets that claim to speak the word of god. Throughout history, organized religion has proven to be a tool used by unscrupulous folks to increase their personal power. They can prove they're right through "faith" while you can't prove them wrong.

In addition, I think I'll have a hard time giving up swearing... and masturbation...

My Questions for you:

1. After reading all this, do you think it's possible for me to become a respectable Mormon?

2. What makes you believe in your religion?

3. Do the leaders of your church believe some things are open to interpretation?

4. Is it possible to be a part of the church without necessarily believing everything?

------

PS: I hope that I haven't jumped around too much, and I apologize for writing a novel. When it comes to topics like this, my mind seems to go a mile a minute and my fingers can't keep up :). I hope at the very least it was an entertaining read.

TL;DR I'm a screw up that wants to hear your reasons for believing what you do.

Edited October 30, 2012 by tektronik

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Hello Tektronik,

I only have a minute, so I apologize for not answering your questions more fully, but I wanted to say hello and welcome to the board!

Yes, I think you have potential to be a good Mormon. :)

Why I am a Mormon...it started with the Three Degrees of Glory, that made so much more sense to me than the whole Heaven or Hell idea. Now, many years later, it is so many things. . .

Gotta run, I look forward to talking to you more later.

[Guest]

Hiya Tek,

Quite a ride you got there! It's like you've lived life 3 times over and used up your allotment of luck and then some. LOL.

Answers to your questions.

1.) It is possible for EVERYBODY to become a respectable Mormon. There's this thing called Atonement of Christ. We believe that through the atonement all mankind can be saved from eternal damnation.

2.) I was a devout Catholic for over 20 years. As a Catholic, I believe in God the Father, His son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost and Christ's teachings. When I learned about the great apostasy and the restoration of the gospel through Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon and all the basic Christian teachings that came with it, Catholicism started to make a lot more sense.

3.) The LDS church believe in personal revelation. That is, you have to seek your own understanding with the guidance of the Holy Spirit through prayer and reflection.

4.) There are only a few requirements to be a member of the Church and they are:

a.) Belief in God the Father and the divinity of His Son Jesus Christ.

b.) Belief that Joseph Smith is the prophet of God and the restored gospel (found in the Bible and the Book of Mormon) is true.

c.) Belief that Thomas S. Monson is a prophet of God.

d.) Repentance of past sins.

e.) Willingness to live gospel standards as part of your covenant (chastity, word of wisdom - no alcohol, drugs, tea, etc., regular church attendance, service, and tithing).

The rest you will learn line by line, precept upon precept, here a little there a little...

My advice to you: There are tons of good Churches out there. Every single one of them have some "skeletons in their closets". The LDS Church is not exempt from this. If you search long enough, you may find that some bishop somewhere has done some heinous crime. This is not a good reason to join/not-join a church. Your main reason for joining the LDS Church should be that you believe in Jesus Christ and His teachings as presented in the doctrine of the LDS Church and you want to follow and live those teachings. Any other reason is just "extra perks".

Good luck.

Edited October 30, 2012 by anatess

[NeuroTypical]

Welcome tek!

Why am I considering becoming Mormon?

I'm drawn to Mormonism because, while it has its own stigmata, it is more distant to the Vatican than the other sects of Christianity (I've never heard of a Mormon priest molesting anyone). Mormonism also has the most strict adherence to its own rules, something that Catholicism severely lacks.

Becoming a mormon because 'we're not like the Catholics' is a pretty horrible reason, IMO. The only good reason to become a mormon is you believe God wants you to be one.

Also, we're prey to the same vices and evils that plague everyone else. You can find an occasional church leader who does evil things. It is true that our faith adopted today's modern zero-tolerance policies for abuse, a decade or so earlier than Catholicism, but just because we root it out and kick it out, doesn't mean it's not there. The roots of evil are present in most if not all of humanity.

There is no evidence to show that god does or does-not exist

I don't think that's true at all. There is plenty of evidence for both arguments - just nothing which reaches the level of conclusive proof.

1. After reading all this, do you think it's possible for me to become a respectable Mormon?

It's possible for anyone to gain a testimony of the reality and divinity of Jesus Christ, and His restored church. That's what becoming a respectable mormon entails. If you're considering joining up because you like our no-drugs policy, I can predict things will not end well.

2. What makes you believe in your religion?

Here's my story.

3. Do the leaders of your church believe some things are open to interpretation?

Yes, and we also believe God hasn't told us everything, and there are mysteries we just won't understand in mortal existance. Our source of doctrine is scripture and what we call 'inspired words of the prophets'. This means two things - when something is inspired or scriptural, It's pretty much 'God says so'. And prophets can have non-inspired opinions, and those opinions can be right or wrong.

4. Is it possible to be a part of the church without necessarily believing everything?

I wouldn't advise it. I mean, you can come to our church if you like - and you will be welcome. But being 'part of the church' means entering the waters of baptism, which is something you do only if you believe in the truth claims this church has to offer, and are willing to dedicate your time and energy to serving your fellow man.

Welcome again

Edited October 30, 2012 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[SanctitasDeo]

I definitely think that you can be a Mormon. Change for the better is what the gospel of Jesus Christ is all about. Nearly everyone has something not very respectable about them that they need to change. If our sins all smelled like smoke...

I would recommend attending church next Sunday and trying to contact missionaries. The point of missionaries is to help people receive an answer for themselves about God and the church. They will be able to help you.

I am Mormon because I've received countless answers over the years. Paraphrasing Loudmouth, I am pretty sure God wants me to be Mormon. When I read the scriptures, when I pray, I feel better. I feel peace. It is that feeling for which drugs, etc. are a cheap substitute.

I have been leery of the idea of prophets on and off. Oddly enough, I was just thinking about that this morning. But every time I watch General Conference, which is this big semiannual church meeting, I am convinced that those guys know what they are talking about. They are for real. They are people; they have their own opinions, too--but they are also prophets and at times they speak for God. It is something you can feel, if you listen.

I hope you find what you are looking for.

[BrendaM]

Tek, I think it's very possible for you to be a "respectable" Mormon. We can all move forward without dragging past sins with us! Because of what Christ did for you (and me, phew!) the Atonement allows us to feel good about who we are and where we can go. We can become clean and work towards being the best possible person we can. Without guilt, without regret. Talk about Love!

That's why I believe. That, and more. The wonderful thing about the gospel of Jesus Christ, as restored by the prophet Joseph Smith, is that the more you live it, the better you become and the more you learn. Doesn't mean your life will be perfect (far from it sometimes...LOL), but it means that you will know that you are not alone. That there is a Heavenly Father who truly loves you, knows who you are!

I agree with what LM said concerning question 3.

You can be part of the church without living all of it's principles. We would never deny you participating in our services in the chapel or attending social events. But there is so much more than that. You would deny yourself the joy of being a true disciple of Christ because you want to keep one foot in "the world". If you choose to take the Missionary discussions and be baptized then you must be all that Heavenly Father requires you to be. That doesn't mean you will "magically" stop swearing or perhaps having inappropriate thoughts. But it does mean that you will be able to overcome these things easier, because you will want to.

You will want to live a life that will allow you the inspiration that comes from being close to Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ.

Try it. Pray. Read the Book of Mormon. Let the Spirit inspire and whisper to your heart. You will like it. You will come to love it and want more of that feeling of peace and truth. Above all, truth.

Good luck tek.

[tektronik]

Thanks everyone for your replies.

If I got to everything here I'd have a post longer than my original post, so I'll pick out the main things:

Why I am a Mormon...it started with the Three Degrees of Glory, that made so much more sense to me than the whole Heaven or Hell idea. Now, many years later, it is so many things. . .

I unfortunately have not had the time thus far to research the "Three Degrees of Glory" but I'll write it down and see if I can ask someone about it when I go to church.

3.) The LDS church believe in personal revelation. That is, you have to seek your own understanding with the guidance of the Holy Spirit through prayer and reflection.

This is one of the main things I am looking for.

4.) There are only a few requirements to be a member of the Church and they are:

a.) Belief in God the Father and the divinity of His Son Jesus Christ.

b.) Belief that Joseph Smith is the prophet of God and the restored gospel (found in the Bible and the Book of Mormon) is true.

c.) Belief that Thomas S. Monson is a prophet of God.

d.) Repentance of past sins.

e.) Willingness to live gospel standards as part of your covenant (chastity, word of wisdom - no alcohol, drugs, tea, etc., regular church attendance, service, and tithing).

a) I understand that belief in god is essential to being a part of any religion. I'm not 100% sure about Jesus being the son of god, but we'll see what I can learn from church.

b) I have not read Joseph Smith's Book of Mormon (or the Bible... how good of a Christian was I? lol) so I cannot comment on it.

c) I have no idea who Thomas Monson is.

d) Fair enough.

e) I understand all of the above, except for tea. Is tea really banned?

At some point this week (or when I go to church) I will do more research on all of the above.

Becoming a mormon because 'we're not like the Catholics' is a pretty horrible reason, IMO.

That is definitely not the reason I would use to join a church. I said that I was considering it and that it was one of the reasons Mormonism caught my eye.

The only good reason to become a mormon is you believe God wants you to be one.

Mmmm... this is difficult because, to me at least, finding acceptance from the Mormon version of god requires the premise that god speaks to you directly. Maybe it will make more sense after I attend mass.

There is plenty of evidence for both arguments - just nothing which reaches the level of conclusive proof.

The so-called "evidence" that god does exist is based on religious premises instead of facts, while the "evidence" that god doesn't exist is trying to prove that a specific religion didn't get the story right (Earth is billions of years old vs 6000). There is nothing concrete for either side to argue. It's based on beliefs and faith.

If you're considering joining up because you like our no-drugs policy, I can predict things will not end well.

I believe in personal responsibility and I'll stay clean because I want to. While the fact that I've done drugs may have led me to this point, it will not impact my decision.

Yes, and we also believe God hasn't told us everything, and there are mysteries we just won't understand in mortal existance. Our source of doctrine is scripture and what we call 'inspired words of the prophets'. This means two things - when something is inspired or scriptural, It's pretty much 'God says so'. And prophets can have non-inspired opinions, and those opinions can be right or wrong.

But does your doctrine require you to believe the words from the Bible and Book of Mormon word for word? Or can you simply appreciate the lessons being passed on through the stories?

I wouldn't advise it. I mean, you can come to our church if you like - and you will be welcome. But being 'part of the church' means entering the waters of baptism, which is something you do only if you believe in the truth claims this church has to offer, and are willing to dedicate your time and energy to serving your fellow man.

Fair enough. It's a big decision, and I certainly wont commit myself to baptism without undue thought.

I would recommend attending church next Sunday and trying to contact missionaries. The point of missionaries is to help people receive an answer for themselves about God and the church. They will be able to help you.

Try it. Pray. Read the Book of Mormon. Let the Spirit inspire and whisper to your heart. You will like it. You will come to love it and want more of that feeling of peace and truth. Above all, truth.

Will do. Hopefully I can do it this weekend. If not, I'll be sure to make time next Sunday.

Edited October 31, 2012 by tektronik
fixing incomplete answer

[HiJolly]

I unfortunately have not had the time thus far to research the "Three Degrees of Glory" but I'll write it down and see if I can ask someone about it when I go to church.

This is one of the first things the missionaries teach to people investigating the Church. They'd be happy to help you.

This (personal revelation) is one of the main things I am looking for.

Even though it is explicitly subjective?

a) I understand that belief in god is essential to being a part of any religion. I'm not 100% sure about Jesus being the son of god, but we'll see what I can learn from church.

Neither am I. Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is the first principle of Mormonism. I believe, but I don't know.

b) I have not read Joseph Smith's Book of Mormon (or the Bible... how good of a Christian was I? lol) so I cannot comment on it.

Ouch.

c) I have no idea who Thomas Monson is.

He's the current prophet of the LDS Church.

e) I understand all of the above, except for tea. Is tea really banned?

Yep. And coffee.

Mmmm... this is difficult because, to me at least, finding acceptance from the Mormon version of god requires the premise that god speaks to you directly. Maybe it will make more sense after I attend mass.

We call it "Sacrament meeting", in Mormon-speak there is only one Sacrament (by that name), that being what protestants would call the Eucharist, or Catholics would call Communion.

The so-called "evidence" that god does exist is based on religious premises instead of facts, while the "evidence" that god doesn't exist is trying to prove that a specific religion didn't get the story right (Earth is billions of years old vs 6000). There is nothing concrete for either side to argue. It's based on beliefs and faith.

I have evidence that God exists, and yes, I obtained these by having a fundamental belief in the teachings (or, premises) of the Church. And then experimenting with the teachings, which lead on to obtain a personal witness of the truth claims of the Church.

We believe that our 'premises' can be spiritually (ie, subjectively) proved as fact, if we follow the Gospel plan to receive evidences sufficient to claim the premises as 'truth'. It works for many, and not as well for some.

I believe in personal responsibility and I'll stay clean because I want to. While the fact that I've done drugs may have led me to this point, it will not impact my decision.

Not everyone is that strong. My hat is off to you.

But does your doctrine require you to believe the words from the Bible and Book of Mormon word for word? Or can you simply appreciate the lessons being passed on through the stories?

No, though some LDS actually do think so. For example, most LDS believe that the global flood is literal. A few (including myself) do not. I read the Bible as Jewish literature. There is a lot of divine truth in it, but not all is.

Maybe I'll go back and try to comment on your first post...

HiJolly

[HiJolly]

My reservations about joining:

Until this point I had written god off as a figment of someone's imagination, or worse: being an invented idea that was used to control people and get money from them. Now, I'm not so sure. Being the logical, realistic person that I am, it's frustrating not being able to objectively say whether something is real or not. There is no evidence to show that god does or does-not exist, but something makes me a bit skeptical of the scientific theory that all we are as people (memories, feelings, dispositions) is caused purely by electrical impulses in the brain.

So... If evidence is subjective rather than objective, it isn't real? Ooo, that's a slippery slope!

I believe that it's possible that everyone has a spirit, and extrapolating that out, there could be a lead spirit that we define as a god. However, I find it hard to believe that there is some guy sitting in heaven/space directing events at his whim.

Right. And, right. We believe God is bound by covenants, and does not do things by 'whim'. The Mormon God is a highly advanced 'man' and 'woman' who limits himself/herself to righteous action from their deified perspective. This goes a long way in helping to understand the problem of evil in the world.

I'm also leery of so-called prophets that claim to speak the word of god. Throughout history, organized religion has proven to be a tool used by unscrupulous folks to increase their personal power. They can prove they're right through "faith" while you can't prove them wrong.

Yep. We have a cool revelation that says:

D&C 121:36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness. 37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.

38 Behold, ere he is aware, he is left unto himself, to kick against the pricks, to persecute the saints, and to fight against God.

39 We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion.

1. After reading all this, do you think it's possible for me to become a respectable Mormon?

Yes, I do.

2. What makes you believe in your religion?

I have "experimented upon the word" and the evidence, while subjective, is conclusive.

Alma 32:27*

3. Do the leaders of your church believe some things are open to interpretation?

Yes. But many members are on auto-pilot and don't think about it. Sad.

4. Is it possible to be a part of the church without necessarily believing everything?

Yes, though it's not recommended that one talk about it openly. I believe there are many incorrect culturally inspired beliefs within the Church. For example, many believe that whatever a prophet or apostle says in a talk or magazine article, it's "truth" or even "doctrine". Our own scriptures don't agree and teach against this view, yet the culture has led us astray. <sigh>

HiJolly

[Guest]

The so-called "evidence" that god does exist is based on religious premises instead of facts, while the "evidence" that god doesn't exist is trying to prove that a specific religion didn't get the story right (Earth is billions of years old vs 6000). There is nothing concrete for either side to argue. It's based on beliefs and faith.

There's pretty concrete evidence that Earth is billions of years old - a lot more than the Earth being only 6,000 years old.

Here you go... line upon line, precept upon precept right? Here's one line you can chew on:

If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we (the LDS) seek after these things.

Yes, that includes scientific research. Science, in itself, is based on theories. Theories don't have to have concrete evidence to stand - it just needs to make sense and not contradict any scientific laws. So, science has theories like, say, the Primordial Soup...

Now, the Bible does not tell you HOW the earth was created. Only that it WAS created and for what purpose. Science, of course, cannot tell you for what purpose. So, because we seek after anything virtuous, praiseworthy, and of good report, we (the LDS) can look towards scientific research to give us a better understanding of the accounts of Genesis. And at the same time, you can get a better understanding of scientific discovery by adding it on to the purposes put forth by scripture.

Make sense?

So, tek, here's another advice for you. Wipe your brain clean of any pre-conceived notions you had of what Christians believe (like the earth is only 6000 years old). More than likely, they're not quite true or not necessary for faith.

[skippy740]

Some tidbits to consider:

The church is a hospital for sinners, not a museum for saints. (Even though it may not LOOK like it from the outside.)

The gospel of Jesus Christ makes bad men good, and good men better. Essentially about the gospel principle of eternal progression. We all have to start somewhere!

As far as faith is concerned, here's a good first step and I quote it a lot on this forum because I think it's really good. It's from Secondhand Lions (the movie):

Sometimes the things that may or may not be true are the things a man needs to believe in the most. That people are basically good; that honor, courage, and virtue mean everything; that power and money, money and power mean nothing; that good always triumphs over evil; and I want you to remember this, that love... true love never dies. You remember that, boy. You remember that. Doesn't matter if it's true or not. You see, a man should believe in those things, because those are the things worth believing in.

And I might add that those who believe in these things... turn out to be better men for believing in these principles.

Just some food for thought.

[BadWolf]

ROFL... I'm a convert. And a fairly recent one at that.

I opened the door to the missionaries with my 'working music' blasting, wearing jeans that showed more skin than they covered, half covered in paint (with a paintbrush in hand), a big ole smile (I was in a spectacular mood / feeling untouchable/ very flippant and playful (aka an Actual spectacular mood, not being sarcastic there, just as a heads up since my humor is pretty dry)...

... And every single reason on why they'd be wasting their time with me on my lips.

Because I honestly didn't want to waste their time.

I usually do my patented missionary brush off (I live in a college area... Lots of missionaries of various sects)... But that day I didn't. In part, because I was covered in paint, and part of that technique involves traipsing through my house to fetch water bottles or therma cups for hot chocolate.

And in part, because Elder A talks faster than I do!!! (A feat. Lemme tell ya).

And then... I did something similar to what you're doing. I emailed a Mormon friend (ISH) that I "knew" (friend from a board for 6 years, but never met in person, I wasn't about to ask people IRL.

But right before I could hit send... My computer crashed.

Aaargh. I'd just listed out every reason this was a stupid SCHTUPID idea, at some personal cost, and the durn laptop snuffs it??? Vexing.

By the 8th crash over a few weeks... I got the hint.

Besides. I'd already brought up all my issues in real life. With the missionaries, and various born and converted Mormons in my ward (the M's were like "You've gotta meet Sister So&So, or Brother Whosit! Okay...).

I did eventually email my board-friend. Who burst out laughing, said people ALWAYS thought the church was getting the short end of the stick... And a bunch of other great things.

My family thinks Im nuts. But they already "knew" that, so they're okay.

My LDS friends from years gone by have ALL had the same reaction. "Well, FINALLY!"

Blink. Blink.

None of which answers your questions about why this is MY church, because my answers will mean jack to you. They boil down to it being the perfect, RIGHT thing to do for me. And my son. (If it was right for me, but wrong for my son, it wouldn't have happened).

Point being: Its time to go pester the missionaries.

Not meaning "go away", but you need WAY more than we can give you here.

Why? Because reading does jack. Kind if like reading about food. Great and all, but you won't know if you ACTUALLY like/love/hate it until you try it.

Face to face is HUGE.

Typing is safe (btdt), but face to face is substantive.

Here's a middle ground for you:

Chat with Us | Mormon.org

Get some real ones to your door. Give them your address / phone number & set something up.

One thing I LOVE about this church is the respect.

Missionaries in the LDS church won't harass you. If, after meeting, you say "Nah, thanks anyway." They won't keep showing up and showing up. Now, thats not to say they wont touch base once or twice jist to make sure you werent just freaked out (althoigh they may not, respect for people making their own decisions is HUGE), they're not like Jehovahs witnesses who will hound you. Also Mormon Missionaroes INVITE, they don't threaten.

Is it going to be a little wacky? Yup. Absolutely.

But "either way"... It's worth it. Because you'll be learning.

[tektronik]

This (personal revelation) is one of the main things I am looking for.

Even though it is explicitly subjective?

I meant that it is one of the thing I would look for in joining a religion. People are entitled to their own opinions, and to explain how they arrived at their conclusions based on these opinions, but calling it evidence is a bit of a stretch.

e) I understand all of the above, except for tea. Is tea really banned?

Yep. And coffee.

Is there a reason for this? Is it the caffeine content?

I happen to enjoy the taste of both. I'd be fine with drinking decaff.

We call it "Sacrament meeting", in Mormon-speak there is only one Sacrament (by that name), that being what protestants would call the Eucharist, or Catholics would call Communion.

So that's what communion is! All I remember is having to stand in a white robe for awhile, eat my Jesus Cracker, and then drink some wine at the end.

I have evidence that God exists, and yes, I obtained these by having a fundamental belief in the teachings (or, premises) of the Church.

Can the evidence be shared with other people or is it based on feeling?

So... If evidence is subjective rather than objective, it isn't real? Ooo, that's a slippery slope!

One of my favorite quotes:

Contradictions do not exist. Whenever you think you are facing a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong.

Subjective evidence leads to contradicting arguments because both sides are working from different premises. In this case, I suppose the premises themselves are subjective...

It's a difficult topic, that's for sure. In a perfect world, there would be no differences in opinion and everything would be objective, but who would want to live in a world like that? There would be no need to innovate, to investigate, to question anything. It would be... boring.

I suppose the objective truth I am searching for is impossible to know, except by the dead. I guess the best way to form an opinion is to form hypotheses and test them through reflection (with scientific input).

Right. And, right. We believe God is bound by covenants, and does not do things by 'whim'. The Mormon God is a highly advanced 'man' and 'woman' who limits himself/herself to righteous action from their deified perspective. This goes a long way in helping to understand the problem of evil in the world.

Working from the premise that God is omnipresent, omnipotent, and omnitemporal would explain how he/she/it would be able to have a "greater plan", using necessary evil for greater good.

My problem with this is that if God is directing every event, does free will truly exist? In the Bible, the story of Adam and Eve (surely something not to be taken literally) says that humanity was gifted with free will, which inevitably led to Adam and Eve falling out of God's good graces. But if God knew this would happen, why would God be disappointed?

Yes. But many members are on auto-pilot and don't think about it. Sad.

Yes, though it's not recommended that one talk about it openly. I believe there are many incorrect culturally inspired beliefs within the Church. For example, many believe that whatever a prophet or apostle says in a talk or magazine article, it's "truth" or even "doctrine". Our own scriptures don't agree and teach against this view, yet the culture has led us astray. <sigh>

That's disappointing. Though I suppose these problems plague most groups.

There's pretty concrete evidence that Earth is billions of years old - a lot more than the Earth being only 6,000 years old.

Yes, but it only disproves a conclusion based upon a conflicting premise. It doesn't address the premise itself.

Theories don't have to have concrete evidence to stand - it just needs to make sense and not contradict any scientific laws. So, science has theories like, say, the Primordial Soup...

Not quite:

A scientific theory summarizes a hypothesis or group of hypotheses that have been supported with repeated testing. If enough evidence accumulates to support a hypothesis, it moves to the next step—known as a theory—in the scientific method and becomes accepted as a valid explanation of a phenomenon.

---------

Now, the Bible does not tell you HOW the earth was created. Only that it WAS created and for what purpose. Science, of course, cannot tell you for what purpose. So, because we seek after anything virtuous, praiseworthy, and of good report, we (the LDS) can look towards scientific research to give us a better understanding of the accounts of Genesis. And at the same time, you can get a better understanding of scientific discovery by adding it on to the purposes put forth by scripture.

Make sense?

Actually, yes.

It's a way to answer philosophical questions, rather than physical. "What is the meaning of life?", ect.

So, tek, here's another advice for you. Wipe your brain clean of any pre-conceived notions you had of what Christians believe (like the earth is only 6000 years old). More than likely, they're not quite true or not necessary for faith.

Will do. I want to go to church with an open mind, and see what I experience. If I felt like I had made up my mind ahead of time, I wouldn't waste my time going down there.

I'm using the forum to gather my questions ahead of time, and to go in with a little background information. I appreciate, and thank everyone for their responses to my posts.

Sometimes the things that may or may not be true are the things a man needs to believe in the most. That people are basically good; that honor, courage, and virtue mean everything; that power and money, money and power mean nothing; that good always triumphs over evil; and I want you to remember this, that love... true love never dies. You remember that, boy. You remember that. Doesn't matter if it's true or not. You see, a man should believe in those things, because those are the things worth believing in.

And I might add that those who believe in these things... turn out to be better men for believing in these principles.

Just some food for thought.

It's a good quote, and definitely something to think about.

My family thinks Im nuts.

I asked my dad last night about his thoughts on Mormonism, and his response?

"It's a cult."

I figured he would say something like that. I wont use his preconceptions to influence my decision, but I realize now that it may not be greeted with open arms.

Point being: Its time to go pester the missionaries.

Not meaning "go away", but you need WAY more than we can give you here.

Why? Because reading does jack. Kind if like reading about food. Great and all, but you won't know if you ACTUALLY like/love/hate it until you try it.

Face to face is HUGE.

Typing is safe (btdt), but face to face is substantive.

I'm going to go down there for sure, but like I said before, I'm using this opportunity to get some background information and to try to rid myself of my tendency to argue against religion.

they're not like Jehovahs witnesses who will hound you.

They came by my house once... they didn't seem very interested after I told them I worship satan. lol

--------

Another question: If Jesus died for our sins, wouldn't that give us free reign to do whatever we wanted?

[Heber13]

My Questions for you:

1. After reading all this, do you think it's possible for me to become a respectable Mormon?

Yes it is. I believe Jesus preached to everyone to come follow him and find peace. Stories in the scriptures like the Prodigal Son confirm to us that because the Atonement is so infinite, we can all change and find good things. It takes work, but commitment to the Church can be a wonderful way to change and find stability in your life. Things like the Word of Wisdom (abstinence from alcohol, coffee, tea, drugs, tobacco) might bless your life greatly, if you embrace the meanings behind it.

2. What makes you believe in your religion?

I was born and raised Mormon. I have tested it and studied it. I have searched other religions. I feel good about the teachings in the Church, and see my children benefit from its teachings. In short, testing my faith has helped me feel good about believing.

3. Do the leaders of your church believe some things are open to interpretation?

Yes. The leaders do not all agree on all matters, and so they council together and pray and come to agreements, but they are individuals with their own ideas and opinions. They just look to God to lead them to His will on what to do. They are good examples to us, even though they are also mortals and fallible.

4. Is it possible to be a part of the church without necessarily believing everything?

I liked Anatess' comments. We learn things one at a time and don't run faster than we have strength, meaning you don't have to believe it all at once. I was on a mission and had one person not want to get baptized until they read and understood everything in the Book of Mormon. I told that person that will never happen. I've been a member all my life and am still trying to read and learn everything.

I believe what I can, what the spirit witnesses to me is true. Some things I don't believe because I am still trying to understand it, and it becomes a ongoing effort to keep learning and keep growing closer to God.

You don't have to be perfect to join the church, and there are imperfections with people in this church, because only Christ was perfect. Just come as you are, and strive to grow while also helping others along the way.

[skippy740]

I asked my dad last night about his thoughts on Mormonism, and his response?

"It's a cult."

I figured he would say something like that. I wont use his preconceptions to influence my decision, but I realize now that it may not be greeted with open arms.

According to a recent news article, Billy Graham removed Mormonism from his website list of cults.

Just google for it. Sure, it may have a political bias, but it was done. (Not that we seek anyone's endorsement but God's in the matters of religion.)

[Heber13]

Is there a reason for this? Is it the caffeine content?

I happen to enjoy the taste of both. I'd be fine with drinking decaff.

The Church recently published a statement acknowledging it is not specifically caffeine that makes it banned. Fact is, we don't really know why, but church leaders have categorized it as coffee, tea, tobacco, alcohol, and drugs. These are stimulants that we want to avoid taking into our body, but trying to analyze the components and chemicals and explain why will not provide an answer.

It becomes a matter of faith, and willingness to see if following the words of prophets will benefit your life.

It does not need to be exaggerated as the biggest deal in Mormonism. Central to the faith is the teachings of Jesus Christ. Tertiary to the faith is following rules to abstain from harmful substances defined as those listed above.

I know some Mormons who drink coffee, but it is going against what is asked by church leaders. They see more important things about the faith than that one rule. But to be baptized is to be willing to follow Christ, and one measure up front is seeing if you are willing to have faith to abstain to these things and see if it blesses you. Because we are not all perfect, there is a variety of examples of adherence to the rules, as we all work on things to come closer to God.

You may like the taste, but you may ask yourself if you HAVE to have it, or if you are willing to make some changes in your life and be faithful to commitments, and see if God blesses you for it.

[SanctitasDeo]

Working from the premise that God is omnipresent, omnipotent, and omnitemporal would explain how he/she/it would be able to have a "greater plan", using necessary evil for greater good.

My problem with this is that if God is directing every event, does free will truly exist? In the Bible, the story of Adam and Eve (surely something not to be taken literally) says that humanity was gifted with free will, which inevitably led to Adam and Eve falling out of God's good graces. But if God knew this would happen, why would God be disappointed?

Examine your premises. LDS believe that God is limited in ways that most other Christians do not. For instance, God will not remove the agency of man. This is central to LDS theology. We are free-willed. There is a part of every person that God did not create. We are eternal. Evil does not come from God; he is good. Evil comes from the fact that he will not force us to choose good--leaving the potential for evil to come from us.

The Fall was part of God's plan; I do not think he was disappointed. We believe that the only way Adam and Eve could have children and really live the life God meant us to live on earth--to learn and grow and become better was through the Fall. See 2 Nephi, chapter 2 for the relevant scriptures. However, there is one verse there that says:

Adam fell that man might be; and men are that they might have joy.

Christ's atonement opens the path for us actually to have lasting joy.

Another question: If Jesus died for our sins, wouldn't that give us free reign to do whatever we wanted?

The answer to this question flows from the last one. Christ died to atone for our sins, not just to make us free from our obligation to justice, but to allow us the chance to become better people; to learn and grow, as I said earlier.

The point of this earth is to give mankind a place to learn the things he must learn to become more like God. We are his children with all that such a statement implies. However, we cannot sin and grow. When we accept Christ's atonement, we agree to work with him to become better. Through his grace, we can lose our inclination to sin. That same grace can elevate us to become more than we currently are.

The Plan of Salvation (of which what I wrote is a part) is really a beautiful thing, and it is one of the reasons that I love LDS theology. It provides a couple of simple answers that solve a lot of problems.

[C_T_R]

Why am I a member of the church? I have no other answer to give you than: it's actually true. You get to find out when you make the decision to live by its high standards or not. You get to find out when you find out who God really is, and how He is there for you.

Personal revelation is something we believe, but I also believe people who aren't members of the church receive some too. After baptism you receive the gift of the Holy Ghost who will be your constant companion if you live worthily.

The church standards are a philosophy of living that isn't smiled upon in this world. The "stigma" is alive and well, and why is it? When people actually get to know what it is we're about.. it's all dispelled. But yeah, make no mistake that you're going to get heat for it. It's because it's true.. mixed with people not knowing or misunderstanding what it is we teach.

The strict standards are for OUR happiness. They're called "commandments," yes. But all they are are ways to live to ensure real happiness, peace, revelation, seeing beyond this temporary mortal existence.

I would advise you not to judge any religion, including Catholicism, by how some of its members behave. You said you suppose crap happens in every group, and I would say it happens everywhere period. You'll find Human Nature -- or the natural man -- everywhere you go. This church is no exception. What IS the exception is the *actual* Gospel of Jesus Christ.

The feeling of the Holy Ghost, and of receiving personal revelation is clouded entirely by any substances you shouldn't be taking into your body. That isn't to say people that do them are bad. It's simply saying you won't be able to feel reality.. which, usually is the point of using them and I can appreciate that. But if people understood how much hope, and peace, I mean real peace you get from the truth.. there's no drug that can even compare. That isn't to say you're not going to have problems at all.

It's hard to describe. It's like trying to describe the way salt tastes to someone who has never tasted it. If you're looking for evidence through our finite scientific methods, you won't find it on either side. But think about the Mormons you have met who seem different.. they have something that is rare in this day and age especially.. it's no secret what it is! You can find out why they choose to wait until marriage to have sex, why they abstain from other worldly things, and why they're happy even in the face of some pretty overwhelming circumstances. It's *real*. That isn't to get you to join, it isn't to say anything except that it's real.

Having said that, God loves all His children. Personal revelation can be yours on your own.. though not the same without that gift.. it's still there. The beauty of the Church is that we embrace all truth no matter where it's found. Many religions have some excellent truths and they bring people closer to God and I embrace that. Research our beliefs, read the Book of Mormon, talk about it with missionaries and/or other church leaders.

But most of all, talk to God about it.

O God, Aaron hath told me that there is a God; and if there is a God, and if thou art God, wilt thou make thyself known unto me, and I will give away all my sins to know thee. [Alma 22:15–18]

Draw near unto me and I will draw near unto you; seek me diligently and ye shall find me; ask, and ye shall receive; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. [D&C 88:63]

If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. [James 1:5]

[Guest]

Another question: If Jesus died for our sins, wouldn't that give us free reign to do whatever we wanted?

Why would you think that?

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whomsoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.".

The bolded phrase above shows that there is something we have to do...

So then, what does that mean to believe in him?

So, let's say Jesus Christ says I can cross the span of the Niagara from the US to Canada on a tightrope holding a wheelbarrow. So you say, I believe! Then you wait for Jesus to cross while you munch popcorn on the sideline. That's not quite what that means. When you say, I believe, it actually means that you are going to jump in the wheelbarrow...

[mnn727]

1. After reading all this, do you think it's possible for me to become a respectable Mormon?

Its possible for anyone to become a respectable Mormon(or anything else) if they really want to.

2. What makes you believe in your religion?

I studied and prayed for a long time before deciding that God was real and this was the Church for me. In the end it was prayer that got me the confirmation.

3. Do the leaders of your church believe some things are open to interpretation?

Some things yes, other things no

4. Is it possible to be a part of the church without necessarily believing everything?

I certainly hope so, cause that's my position and I've been LDS for almost 20 years now

The so-called "evidence" that god does exist is based on religious premises instead of facts, while the "evidence" that god doesn't exist is trying to prove that a specific religion didn't get the story right (Earth is billions of years old vs 6000). There is nothing concrete for either side to argue. It's based on beliefs and faith.

We don't believe the Earth is 6000 years old (some members may but as a religion we don't)

But does your doctrine require you to believe the words from the Bible and Book of Mormon word for word?

No, while we do believe the Bible and Book of Mormon are inspired by God we also know translations have changed meanings, and that they are open to interpretation

My problem with this is that if God is directing every event, does free will truly exist?

We believe Free Will (or Agency) is one of the main laws of God perhaps the highest law -- or to borrow an old Star Trek term; its the 'Prime Directive'

Wipe your brain clean of any pre-conceived notions you had of what Christians believe (like the earth is only 6000 years old). More than likely, they're not quite true or not necessary for faith.

Good advice -- we're not your typical Christian Denomination - in MY PERSONAL opinion, we're the only one that makes sense.

Edited October 31, 2012 by mnn727

[tektronik]

I believe what I can, what the spirit witnesses to me is true. Some things I don't believe because I am still trying to understand it, and it becomes a ongoing effort to keep learning and keep growing closer to God.

Have you been baptized? I ask only because I want to know if you can be baptized and still have this view.

The Church recently published a statement acknowledging it is not specifically caffeine that makes it banned. Fact is, we don't really know why, but church leaders have categorized it as coffee, tea, tobacco, alcohol, and drugs. These are stimulants that we want to avoid taking into our body, but trying to analyze the components and chemicals and explain why will not provide an answer.

Who originally said that coffee and tea were not allowed to be consumed? Did it come from the Book of Mormon or a person?

You may like the taste, but you may ask yourself if you HAVE to have it, or if you are willing to make some changes in your life and be faithful to commitments, and see if God blesses you for it.

I don't have to have it, but I don't understand why this is a part of the faith. I understand abstaining from drugs, alcohol (BTW didn't Jesus drink wine?), and even sex, but I don't see the reasoning behind banning such a benign substance.

I could stop drinking it, and will if I decide to participate, but I'd like to understand it.

According to a recent news article, Billy Graham removed Mormonism from his website list of cults.

I doubt this will persuade my dad at all, but it's good to know.

It's hard to describe. It's like trying to describe the way salt tastes to someone who has never tasted it. If you're looking for evidence through our finite scientific methods, you won't find it on either side. But think about the Mormons you have met who seem different.. they have something that is rare in this day and age especially.. it's no secret what it is! You can find out why they choose to wait until marriage to have sex, why they abstain from other worldly things, and why they're happy even in the face of some pretty overwhelming circumstances. It's *real*. That isn't to get you to join, it isn't to say anything except that it's real.

I've only met one Mormon, and she didn't seem that different. She certainly swore a whole lot less than the other people at work, but she seemed... normal.

Personal revelation can be yours on your own.. though not the same without that gift.. it's still there.

Just to clarify, does personal revelation mean sudden realization about something? Or the forming of opinions?

But most of all, talk to God about it.

O God, Aaron hath told me that there is a God; and if there is a God, and if thou art God, wilt thou make thyself known unto me, and I will give away all my sins to know thee. [Alma 22:15–18]

Draw near unto me and I will draw near unto you; seek me diligently and ye shall find me; ask, and ye shall receive; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. [D&C 88:63]

If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. [James 1:5]

In the past (a really long time ago), I have tried praying to see if I would get a response. I received nothing but silence, but then again, maybe my expectations of silence tainted the results. I believe I have this Sunday off, so I'll probably get to go to church, and I'll show up early and give it another shot. I'll also be sure to keep an open mind this time.

[skippy740]

You're putting the cart before the horse. Don't worry about rules and commandments until you have a testimony.

Until then, enjoy Sabbath services and classes. Just partake of the spirit there and ask questions - particularly of the Gospel Principles teacher and the missionaries. That's what they're there for.

Take it one step at a time, line upon line, precept upon precept.

[HiJolly]

HiJolly: I have evidence that God exists, and yes, I obtained these by having a fundamental belief in the teachings (or, premises) of the Church.

Dude: Can the evidence be shared with other people or is it based on feeling?

Good question, but a little ambiguous, IMO.

If I have a vision (certainly subjective) can I "share with other people"? Well, yes, I can. I can tell the story and describe the effects. Is that what you meant? And yes, I would not only be sharing it, but it would also be based on my feelings I had, both in the time I experienced the vision, and afterward as I tried to explain the experience.

HiJolly

[mnn727]

The Coffee/Tea ban comes from our code of health (called the Word of Wisdom). We LDS are a Covenant people, we Covenant with God to do or not do certain things, that's one. But as skippy740 said:

You're putting the cart before the horse. Don't worry about rules and commandments until you have a testimony.

Until then, enjoy Sabbath services and classes. Just partake of the spirit there and ask questions - particularly of the Gospel Principles teacher and the missionaries. That's what they're there for.

Take it one step at a time, line upon line, precept upon precept.

If/When you have a testimony from God that He wants you in this Church, then following those Covenants will not be a burden.

[C_T_R]

Why Mormon?

I had a friend I met online when I was first diagnosed with a chronic illness I've suffered from the majority of my life. This person was a God-send at the time. I would wake up in the morning, roll over in bed, and find an email from her talking about her fight with the same illness, and telling me about her family. We discussed different ideas, and unorthodox methods of treating the symptoms that plagued us. She was the first to recommend a treatment I knew nothing about.

But I went and got the pharmaceutical and started. It was pretty miraculous in its own right.. because it was like fitting pieces of the puzzle of my history together. It was almost like my brain was a camera lens brought into focus. But I was scared that I was taking this treatment that was for an entirely different issue, and one that can backfire for some. At that time I met another friend :) who said to me, "If it helps you, who cares if you have [the issue it mainly addresses]."

So here's the thing.. I believe and really have come to know that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints' teachings make my life better. They've taught me to treat people better, they've taught me to look at people differently. They've taught me how to find God, and have a personal relationship with Him. They've taught me how to treat my body so that I have the greatest chances of feeling well and avoiding health issues that I don't have to deal with through my choices. They've taught me how to love -- and I'm not saying I'm perfect, but I am motivated to become perfect someday through the grace of our Savior Jesus Christ. It's taught me the sweetness of putting off the natural man and how truly, "there's beauty in the breakdown." It's given me hope, compassion, love of my fellow man, and of myself.

So, what I would say to anybody who questions whether it's real or is concerned that they'd become an example to others and teach them that this is the way to happiness, only to find out it's all bunk.. What if it is? If it makes your life better, if it makes you a better person, a calmer, happier person who lifts others in the process.. so what if it's not true?

The thing about this is, I later came to find that I did in fact have the problem the drug was intended to address! And had I not taken that leap of faith, and listened to that wise, but simple counsel of my friend, I'd have never known what I was lacking. It has benefited my life in ways I never thought possible. I'm able to do things that I would have never been able to do and that's the truth.

Just some thoughts that came to me earlier.