Please explain this to me!

[Guest SquidMom]

Although I was raised in the church, having been inactive most of my adult life and I know very little of actual LDS doctrine. I have heard alot of stuff here and there mentioned about Kolob. Will someone please educate me? What is the deal about Elohim and Kolob? I have never heard any of this mentioned in actual gospel discussions.

[Just_A_Guy]

"Elohim" is simply the name of God the Father, as distinct from God the Son (Jesus Christ, or Jehovah).

The Book of Abraham includes a section where Abraham is shown, in vision, the heavens. During that vision a star designated as "Kolob" is said to be the nearest star to God's throne. Beyond that, we really don't know anything.

[Guest]

It's not a central doctrine that we focus on or talk about much in church. It's one of many fringe things that, in my opinion, just distracts from saving doctrines when given too much focus.

[bytebear]

To me, it's obvious. Kolob represents Jesus Christ in the pre-existence, and Kokaubeam represents the pre-existent spirits who were with him as we prepared the Earth.

Abraham 3:9

9 And thus there shall be the reckoning of the time of one planet above another, until thou come nigh unto Kolob, which Kolob is after the reckoning of the Lord’s time; which Kolob is set nigh unto the throne of God, to govern all those planets which belong to the same order as that upon which thou standest.

(Jesus is Kolob, the star, and we are the planets)

Abraham 3:4

4 And the Lord said unto me, by the Urim and Thummim, that Kolob was after the manner of the Lord, according to its times and seasons in the revolutions thereof; that one revolution was a day unto the Lord, after his manner of reckoning, it being one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest. This is the reckoning of the Lord’s time, according to the reckoning of Kolob.

The great ones were saved for the end times (see D&C 138)

Abraham 3:16

16 If two things exist, and there be one above the other, there shall be greater things above them; therefore Kolob is the greatest of all the Kokaubeam that thou hast seen, because it is nearest unto me.

Jesus is above all of us.

Abraham 3:3

3 And the Lord said unto me: These are the governing ones; and the name of the great one is Kolob, because it is near unto me, for I am the Lord thy God: I have set this one to govern all those which belong to the same order as that upon which thou standest.

(again, this represents fore ordained prophets)

Abraham 5:13

13 But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the time that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die. Now I, Abraham, saw that it was after the Lord’s time, which was after the time of Kolob; for as yet the Gods had not appointed unto Adam his reckoning.

(Apparently Eden was in God's time, and then we went into our time. This defeats that whole concept that Earth is 6000 years old. We cannot determine time because it shifted)

Abraham 3:2

2 And I saw the stars, that they were very great, and that one of them was nearest unto the throne of God; and there were many great ones which were near unto it;

And now compare that to D&C 138

36 Thus was it made known that our Redeemer spent his time during his sojourn in the world of aspirits, instructing and preparing the faithful spirits of the bprophets who had testified of him in the flesh;

37 That they might carry the message of redemption unto all the dead, unto whom he could not go personally, because of their arebellion and transgression, that they through the ministration of his servants might also hear his words.

38 Among the great and amighty ones who were assembled in this vast congregation of the righteous were Father bAdam, the cAncient of Days and father of all,

...

53 The Prophet Joseph Smith, and my father, Hyrum Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, and other choice aspirits who were breserved to come forth in the cfulness of times to take part in laying the dfoundations of the great latter-day work,

54 Including the building of the atemples and the performance of ordinances therein for the redemption of the bdead, were also in the spirit world.

55 I observed that they were also among the anoble and great ones who were bchosen in the beginning to be rulers in the Church of God.

56 Even before they were born, they, with many others, received their first alessons in the world of spirits and were bprepared to come forth in the due ctime of the Lord to labor in his dvineyard for the salvation of the souls of men.

[volgadon]

Bytebear nailed it.

[Guest SquidMom]

Wow. That is so confusing. No wonder people think we are crazy.

[Guest SquidMom]

How much more about the church do I not know? How do I tell myself that I believe in something I don't fully understand? So much doesn't make sense to me.....

[Vort]

Although I was raised in the church, having been inactive most of my adult life and I know very little of actual LDS doctrine. I have heard alot of stuff here and there mentioned about Kolob. Will someone please educate me? What is the deal about Elohim and Kolob? I have never heard any of this mentioned in actual gospel discussions.

"Elohim" is a Hebrew word (אֱלֹהִ֔ים) meaning "gods". In the Old Testament, it is used mostly to refer to God (Jehovah), and is considered a sort of "name" for God. In LDS circles, we use "Elohim" as a proper name to refer specifically to God the Father, not Jehovah (who is Jesus Christ). This is primarily temple usage; outside the temple and early Church writings, we really do not see or use the term "elohim" very much.

Kolob is described as "the star nearest the throne of God" in the Book of Abraham (Pearl of Great Price). The Book of Abraham talks about stars being divided into various orders, higher and lower, and Kolob being of the highest order, next to the throne of God himself. So what does it mean? Apparently, it meant something to Abraham. For us and our modern view of astronomy, it doesn't mean very much.

Some, primarily professional anti-Mormons, have claimed Kolob as a "planet" that God "lives on". Such people delight in making LDS doctrine sound as bizarre and science-fiction-y as they possibly can. Don't expect any reasonable interpretations from such people.

The fact is that "Kolob" forms approximately 0.000% of any gospel doctrine, Relief Society, quorum, or family home evening lesson. Many members who have never read the Pearl of Great Price closely are not even aware of the existence of something called "Kolob". It is an exotic and mostly unknown LDS doctrine, popularized primarily by enemies of the restored gospel as something to mock and make fun of. I urge you to ignore their mockings.

[bytor2112]

If You Could Hie to Kolob, 284 – William W. Phelps

1. If you could hie to Kolob In the twinkling of an eye,

And then continue onward With that same speed to fly,

Do you think that you could ever, Through all eternity,

Find out the generation Where Gods began to be?

2. Or see the grand beginning, Where space did not extend?

Or view the last creation, Where Gods and matter end?

Me thinks the Spirit whispers, “No man has found ‘pure space,’

Nor seen the outside curtains, Where nothing has a place.”

3. The works of God continue, And worlds and lives abound;

Improvement and progression Have one eternal round.

There is no end to matter; There is no end to space;

There is no end to spirit; There is no end to race.

4. There is no end to virtue; There is no end to might;

There is no end to wisdom; There is no end to light.

There is no end to union; There is no end to youth;

There is no end to priesthood; There is no end to truth.

5. There is no end to glory; There is no end to love;

There is no end to being; There is no death above.

There is no end to glory; There is no end to love;

There is no end to being; There is no death above.

[Guest]

I wish they'd remove that beautiful hymn and put back Come, Thou Fount.

[bytor2112]

I wish they'd remove that beautiful hymn and put back Come, Thou Fount.

Why remove? Why not add?

[Guest]

Because I don't see essential doctrine in "If You Could Hie". It's a lovely song and an interesting topic, but it's full of pop doctrine.

[bytebear]

Because I don't see essential doctrine in "If You Could Hie". It's a lovely song and an interesting topic, but it's full of pop doctrine.

If Kolob = Jesus, then how is "If you could hie unto Kolob" any different than "Come unto me" or "Great King of Heaven" or even "Jesus wants me for a Sunbeam."

The simple truth is we have a term that is obscure even in LDS circles, but it's no different than something like Zion, or Deseret, other any other term that is symbolic to something else. If anti-Mormons started claiming that we believe God lives on a planet called Zion, would you shun that word too? Why the fear? Embrace Kolob.

[volgadon]

Because I don't see essential doctrine in "If You Could Hie". It's a lovely song and an interesting topic, but it's full of pop doctrine.

Myopic.

[Guest SquidMom]

Thank you, Vort. That made sense.

[Guest]

Myopic.

Nah. As stated in another thread today, I've had LASIK. :)

I think this thread speaks enough for why I don't think it's a necessary or maybe even valuable addition to our hymnal. But I don't feel strongly enough about it to campaign against it, or even really to continue this discussion. FWIW, I haven't heard of Kolob being a type for Jesus until this thread, and I've been an active member for a few decades.

[Dravin]

How much more about the church do I not know?

It will always be greater than zero unless you've found a way to be omniscient. It's a learning processes, is the process for solving a quadratic equation untrue or not understood because you don't know how to solve a cubic equation? That said, understanding will grow with study and prayer.

How do I tell myself that I believe in something I don't fully understand? So much doesn't make sense to me.....

Because testimony is founded upon the communication from the Holy Ghost not on statements of, "I now know everything there is to know about the Church and understand everything about it." If it were founded on such statements nobody would join the Church, this is a gospel of learning and gaining understanding, and of course of becoming.

[Backroads]

I've heard and seen plenty of hullabulloo over Kolob, but do people really get their panties in a twist over Mormons using the term "Elohim"?

[mnn727]

Because I don't see essential doctrine in "If You Could Hie". It's a lovely song and an interesting topic, but it's full of pop doctrine.

I'd love to go through the Hymn book with a black magic marker and remove many songs that do not have the Praise of God as its primary subject.

[mnn727]

From LDS.org

Approaching Mormon Doctrine

SALT LAKE CITY —

Much misunderstanding about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints revolves around its doctrine. The news media is increasingly asking what distinguishes the Church from other faiths, and reporters like to contrast one set of beliefs with another.

The Church welcomes inquisitiveness, but the challenge of understanding Mormon doctrine is not merely a matter of accessing the abundant information available. Rather, it is a matter of how this information is approached and examined.

The doctrinal tenets of any religion are best understood within a broad context, and thoughtful analysis is required to understand them. News reporters pressed by daily deadlines often find that problematic. Therefore, as the Church continues to grow throughout the world and receive increasing media attention, a few simple principles that facilitate a better understanding may be helpful:

Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith. Isolated statements are often taken out of context, leaving their original meaning distorted.

Some doctrines are more important than others and might be considered core doctrines. For example, the precise location of the Garden of Eden is far less important than doctrine about Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice. The mistake that public commentators often make is taking an obscure teaching that is peripheral to the Church’s purpose and placing it at the very center. This is especially common among reporters or researchers who rely on how other Christians interpret Latter-day Saint doctrine.

Based on the scriptures, Joseph Smith declared: “The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it.”

Emphasis is mine Edited November 7, 2012 by mnn727

[bytor2112]

Because I don't see essential doctrine in "If You Could Hie". It's a lovely song and an interesting topic, but it's full of pop doctrine.

Eternal progression is not an essential doctrine???????????????????????????????????

[Guest]

No need to give yourself an aneurysm. I didn't say it doesn't have anything valuable. I said I've never in 34 years in the Church heard of your interpretation of Kolob, nor has my husband who's a little older than me. I also never said there's nothing valuable in the hymn, just that there is a lot of stuff that is speculation. The hymn does rest on the word "if", after all. And, once again, I'm not campaigning to have it removed. I made a comment off the cuff stating that I don't understand why it was left in the hymnal when, for instance, "Come, Thou Fount" was removed.

[bytor2112]

No need to give yourself an aneurysm. I didn't say it doesn't have anything valuable. I said I've never in 34 years in the Church heard of your interpretation of Kolob, nor has my husband who's a little older than me. I also never said there's nothing valuable in the hymn, just that there is a lot of stuff that is speculation. The hymn does rest on the word "if", after all. And, once again, I'm not campaigning to have it removed. I made a comment off the cuff stating that I don't understand why it was left in the hymnal when, for instance, "Come, Thou Fount" was removed.

34 years in the church is a bit of a stretch...aren't you just 34 years old? :) Anyways....I have heard many times the idea that Kolob is representative of Christ.

And FWIW the hymn book has that particular hymn in the topic guide under the category of Exaltation, Plan of Salvation, self improvement and Wortiness. Exaltation is not a "pop" doctrine. I am guessing you would like to see Oh My Father in the ash heap of history as well.......

[Guest]

I'm sorry this topic has caused you so much personal distress.

[Anddenex]

34 years in the church is a bit of a stretch...aren't you just 34 years old? :) Anyways....I have heard many times the idea that Kolob is representative of Christ.

And FWIW the hymn book has that particular hymn in the topic guide under the category of Exaltation, Plan of Salvation, self improvement and Wortiness. Exaltation is not a "pop" doctrine. I am guessing you would like to see Oh My Father in the ash heap of history as well.......

I have since my mission, 15 years ago, had the understanding similar to this brother in reference to Kolob and Jesus Christ.

If, then, the cosmology that Abraham is shown might actually be a metaphor for spirits, interpreting Kolob should be fairly simple. Nearest unto God, after the manner of God, the great one, the chief governing one – Kolob is Jesus Christ. And the “governing ones” are the “noble and great” spirits that Abraham later sees, of which he himself is included (Abr. 3:22-23).

Thus, I would agree with bytor... and I am confused on how someone would consider a Hymn "pop doctrine".