Emotional abuse in temple marriage

[blueroses]

The short(ish) history:

I have been married in the temple. We have kids. My husband, though often unaware of it, displays daily acts of hurtful behavior towards me, including but not limited to: passive aggressiveness, isolation, the cold shoulder, temper tantrums, yelling, emotional abandonment, and belittlement. It sounds horrible in those terms, but most of the time, these acts are done in a very subtle way, through very passive means. He is the perfect guy in public, which makes going to church and seeing happy couples around me very painful. Most of the time, he tells me that I'm being too sensitive, that it's my fault, that I should learn to think in his terms, and that I'm making too big of a deal out of things. I honestly believe that most of the time. I rarely bring up any issues between us out of fear of his anger. He has never been physically abusive, but sometimes I worry that he could be, if provoked (I have tried VERY hard to keep the peace so that I don't test those limits.)

In many, many ways, he is a good man, and the very few people I've reached out to have told me to either work harder on my marriage because he's got so many great qualities, or to leave him. I am getting mixed messages. I am totally confused. Not only that, but my self-esteem is at a rock bottom, so I don't trust my own decisions.

There's a ton more to it than this, but I will end with a question. At what point does the church condone divorce where emotional abuse is involved? I honestly don't see this as a healthy situation to be in, and my hope in it is very thin, but I understand that we need to hold on and work at our marriages until we've exhausted all of our options. I just don't know how much is enough? Or how I would bear the weight of an answer like "stick it out because it will all be better in the eternities."

I have no doubt that many of you are in similar situations. I would love to hear your experiences/thoughtful advice. It has taken a monumental amount of courage for me to post this!

Edited December 23, 2012 by blueroses

[Backroads]

As far as I'm aware, the Church has no strict policy on what cases of divorce are condoned are condemned. Your bishop has no power to say "You will(not) get a divorce". I recommend you counsel with him and other sources.

[selek]

As Backroads pointed out, there is no official Church policy or magical dividing line between marriages that can be saved and those that cannot be.

Nor should your ecclesiastical leaders be giving you specific counsel to either to divorce or to stay.

Those are matters that you and your husband should be considering prayerfully between yourselves and God.

The short(ish) history:

I have no doubt that many of you are in similar situations.

"Monumental amount of courage" notwithstanding, I am wondering how you justify the above remark in your own mind.

Do you mean to imply that "many" Temple marriages are emotionally abusive? If so, how do you justify a blanket condemnation of people you do not know?

Edited December 20, 2012 by selek

[Guest]

What have the two of you done to work on your marriage? What steps have you taken to fix it?

[blueroses]

Thanks for your responses.

I have counseled with my bishop, but there wasn't a black-and-white response, it was more up to my own judgment, which is why I posted. It's very hard for me, even with fasting/praying/going to counseling to know what to do. It's been a very difficult situation in general. One in which I've run up against many walls, with little to no support at all.

As far as the second response is concerned, I don't know how to respond to that. Maybe I'm too dense to understand what you mean. Is assuming that many are in similar situations a bad thing? Was I in the wrong? Please help me understand.

I don't know. Maybe I shouldn't have posted at all . . .

[Guest]

Posting is good. Trying to get help is good.

Bishops aren't marriage counselors. I don't even tend to think that most marriage counselors are effective.

My opinion is that you keep fighting to keep your family together until you've exhausted every option. One program that makes a great deal of sense to me is marriage builders. They have a forum at their site, marriagebuilders.com, where you can read about their principles. I suggest that the two of you take the quizzes to determine one another's emotional needs, and work at meeting them. He might not know how to love you correctly, and this program can help him learn, if he's willing. That's what I like about it, as opposed to counseling. So often counseling is sitting and making out a laundry list of why you're unhappy. This instead gives you both something proactive to do to rebuild and fortify your relationship.

[blueroses]

Selek, I don't have statistics to back me up at all. I wasn't trying to make a blanket statement. I was trying to be empathetic to those who might be in a similar situation. Please don't twist my words into condemnations. It hurts.

[selek]

Thanks for your responses.

I have counseled with my bishop, but there wasn't a black-and-white response, it was more up to my own judgment, which is why I posted. It's very hard for me, even with fasting/praying/going to counseling to know what to do. It's been a very difficult situation in general. One in which I've run up against many walls, with little to no support at all.

It's good that you've counseled with your Bishop, but is that all you've done?

We don't know all of the inside details- we can only judge based on what you've told us.

And from what you've presented, it appears that you've realized you're unhappy (and blame your husbands "emotional abuse") and are now considering (and seeking justification for) divorce.

From what you've presented, it looks like you're short-circuiting the healing/repentance/reconciliation process and leaping right to the most extreme solution.

One of the problems I've encountered is that most people don't realize that marriage- any marriage- is dynamic, rather than static.

They change from day to day, week to week, and year to year.

People tend to focus on the negative- and because things are bad now, they assume that things will always be bad.

In the depths of their despair, they abandon hope- and then they abandon their vows.

It's myopic, short-sighted, and self-defeating but it happens all too often.

That having been established, the two most pertinent questions are:

Do you want to end your marriage or reform it?

What steps are you taking to achieve that goal?

As far as the second response is concerned, I don't know how to respond to that. Maybe I'm too dense to understand what you mean. Is assuming that many are in similar situations a bad thing? Was I in the wrong? Please help me understand.

My problem is that your statement assumes that "many" faithful, Temple-worthy LDS are in abusive relationships.

It seemed to imply that "abusive relationships" are common to Temple relationships.

It could even be argued that your post implied that the "problem" lies in the institution of Temple marriage rather than with the people involved.

I don't believe that you intended to imply either, which is why I demanded clarification.

In point of fact, LDS Temple marriages are statistically stronger, longer-lasting, and healthier than non-Temple and non-LDS counterparts.

Does that mean they are without problems? Of course not.

Does it mean that they do not require hardwork, dedication, committment, and forgiveness.

Not hardly.

Had you said "I have no doubt that many here might have insights that will help my situation", I would have been first in line to agree with you.

Your statement, however, implied a number of things that I don't believe you intended.

I don't know. Maybe I shouldn't have posted at all . . .

As one of my old Chiefs was fond of saying, "The only stupid question is the one you don't ask". Edited December 20, 2012 by selek

[kapikui]

The problem is that we are not privy to your situation. We have your description, but that is from your point of view with all of the clouding your emotions give it. That can go two different different directions on that. On the one end, your husband might be right. You might be being oversensitive, and blowing things out of proportion. On the other hand, you might be minimizing the abuse, and things could be far worse than you describe. There's no way for us to know.

[selek]

Selek, I don't have statistics to back me up at all. I wasn't trying to make a blanket statement. I was trying to be empathetic to those who might be in a similar situation. Please don't twist my words into condemnations. It hurts.

Thank you for the clarification.

As stated above, I agree that there are many here who can offer insights into your situation and empathize with your pain.

Even those who cannot, can still "weep with those who mourn."

[blueroses]

I totally understand it's hard to even know where to begin to help a person whose history you only know a fragment about. Thank you for taking the time to respond to me, nonetheless.

I'm all about making things work, if they can. That's why I've been to see a counselor for 3 years, have sought for advice from the bishop, have stayed active and involved in the Church, and have tried SO hard to keep the peace in my home. But when there is constant anger and yelling and blame, when efforts to talk to and reason with him result in indifference and MORE anger, it's just hard to feel like it will work. There comes a point when you just begin to wonder if you've done all you can do.

But, as mentioned, there are no magic answers. No one can validate or answer except for the Lord. I totally get that. Just wanted to get my story out.

[mnn727]

Have you gone to couples counseling? perhaps LDS Social Services?

Frankly some people are abusive (both men and women)

AND

Some people are too sensitive (both men and women)

Can people change? Yes

Are all marriages saveable? -- If both people want to save it and actively work to do so.

[selek]

You've been meeting with a counselor for three years: has your husband been involved in this process?

[blueroses]

He has no interest in going with me to counseling. He believes it is my problem alone.

Edited December 23, 2012 by blueroses

[Guest]

Only you know the full scope of the situation, and only you can get those answers from Heavenly Father. Maybe it's time to stop asking permission from other people and start asking Heavenly Father if you've done all you can to keep your covenants, and if it's time to let go.

[selek]

That is both unwise and unfortunate.

[blueroses]

Eowyn,

Thanks so much for your thoughts. It is time for me to decide with Heavenly Father what to do--I totally agree. And no one else can give me that permission but the Lord. The thing is, I am so broken inside. It's so hard for me to trust my feelings, even divine ones. I am really praying hard now for healing and love from above. Sometimes it just feels . . . gray. You know what I mean? And I am constantly confused because I'm getting so many different messages. I'm sure there is a divine lesson behind this--maybe Heavenly Father's way of empowering me with my own choice, and helping me to own it. Not quite sure.

But yes, you are absolutely right. Thank you for bringing that up. :)

Edited December 23, 2012 by blueroses

[skippy740]

He has no interest in going with me to counseling. He believes it is my problem alone. I do suffer from PTSD, but it has been concluded from a professional that this is mostly from stuff (I haven't mentioned) that has happened to me in the marriage. My husband has used this disorder against me a lot as the cause of all our problems. I've always believed him, have tried to suppress the disorder in order to not set him off (he gets angry when I panic), and am just now learning that perhaps it's not "just me", after all.

There are no "alone" problems in a marriage. If one of you has a problem... ANY problem... you both share the responsibility and the consequences of the problem, no matter what it is.

If he has a problem at work... you also have a problem to help him solve at his work.

If you have a problem with him... he has a problem that you have a problem with him.

Just with that alone, there is a distance from responsibility and more of an emphasis in blaming.

Is it a marriage? Or just two people who happen to have a legal and religious contract to live together?

I also recommend the book: http://www.lds.net/forums/book-club/50563-emotionally-abusive-relationship-beverly-engel.html It has provided me with a great insight as to how I was behaving. Some things I simply was clueless about. What I like about this book, is that it does not paint the abuser as a monster and the only recourse is to get out. It will help you see various aspects to both of you and help you determine what the problems REALLY are and help you make informed decisions going forward.

And this is from a person whose divorce was just finalized last week.

Edited December 22, 2012 by skippy740

[MorningStar]

If I were in that situation, I would start with a trial separation so I can take a break from him and so I can pray about it while not in the toxic situation. It is very hard to feel the Spirit when you are in a state of panic/anxiety/fear/etc. It might help you make important decisions and at the same time teach him that he doesn't get to treat you like that.

Prayers for you.

[MarginOfError]

"Divorce can be justified only in the rarest of circumstances. In my opinion, “just cause” for divorce should be nothing less serious than a prolonged and apparently irredeemable relationship that destroys a person’s dignity as a human being. Divorce often tears people’s lives apart and shears family happiness. Frequently in a divorce the parties lose much more than they gain." (James E. Faust)

My thoughts: If your spouse is refusing to attend counseling with you because these are your problems and you, he's pushing the envelope on your dignity. I'm with MorningStar, I'd suggest he either start attending counseling with you, and if he refuses, separate for a time.

The biggest red flag I see in what you describe is that he says you need to learn to look at things from his point of view, but you clearly don't feel he is making any effort to see things from your point of view. It's possible that he is trying and you aren't seeing it, and that is something that could be determined better if he were to attend counseling with you. If he refuses to attend counseling, that's a good sign that he isn't interested in seeing your point of view.

If you decide on separation, but worry about his abuse escalating to violence, here are a couple of resources to help you prepare. Note: You should not view these resources from your home computer. Look at them from the house of a friend or at a library.

Safety planning for abusive situations | womenshealth.gov

How To Leave A Verbally Abusive Husband | LIVESTRONG.COM

I sincerely hope these resources aren't necessary, but given how you feel, you are not in a healthy relationship and the only way it can be salvaged is if both you and him are willing to put in the time and effort necessary to fix it.

Good luck, and stay safe.

[mrmarklin]

The problem is that we are not privy to your situation. We have your description, but that is from your point of view with all of the clouding your emotions give it. That can go two different different directions on that. On the one end, your husband might be right. You might be being oversensitive, and blowing things out of proportion. On the other hand, you might be minimizing the abuse, and things could be far worse than you describe. There's no way for us to know.

I agree, there are not enough facts. Get professional counselling. I'm not a big fan of this, having been. But sometimes an outside opinion can give perspective, not only to you, but to your spouse. He may not realize how some of the silly things he does affect you, since you probably only communicate with him in an emotional state. Although it would seem that the emotions alone would give him a clue; but they're obviously not.

Edit; read the rest of the posts! He should go to counselling with you. If not, that's a big negative and you do need to consider your options.

Edited December 21, 2012 by mrmarklin

[mnn727]

It seems like if your husband were really trying to work on his marriage he would go to counseling with you -- even if you really are too sensitive, it would still help for him to go with you.

Please keep in mind its really hard for us to judge the actual situation by a few posts on the internet however if I believed my wife was having problems/issues I would want to do whatever I could to help her and if that included going to counseling with her I certainly would do so.

[mnn727]

Duplicate post removed

[Smeagums]

Getting a Temple marriage doesn't guarantee an eternal marriage.

The inhabitants of Heaven recognize marriages in mortality that mirror those where they dwell. They allow those Heavenly like marriages to endure into eternity.

This statement here "stick it out because it will all be better in the eternities" is false. Simply enduring a loveless or terrible marriage will not guarantee happiness in the next life.

I am not stating that your marriage is loveless or terrible but just trying to help people realize the misconceptions that people have about Temple marriage.

[Guest]

In my marriage, I'm the one with issues. Of course, I didn't know this. So, for years, my husband and I would fight and such and he would say, let's go to a marriage counsellor and I would say, you kidding me? Because that all translated in my head as my husband saying, "you are a crazy idiot, go get some counseling", when in my head, what I was thinking was, "you're the idiot, you're the one that needs counseling". It took me a while - years even - to realize that I'm working against my marriage that I was trying to fight for.

From the information I got out of this thread, this behavior that your husband is showing is more than likely a result of him just not knowing the proper way to express himself. It could either be that he knows it is bad he just doesn't know how to fix it... or he doesn't know it is bad at all. A lot of these communication methods - the manipulation, the aggression, etc. - is built upon years of learning from life's experiences. He probably learned growing up that if he does these things, he gets the desired effect. Or his parents do it this way, so he learned to do it this way too. And even though he might realize it is a bad thing to do, he probably just doesn't even know how else to achieve his intended results.

See, I learned a lot of my "marriage principles" from the Philippines where divorce is illegal. You might wonder, how is that even possible? How can you go through life knowing you are going to be stuck with this dumb husband all the days of your life? Well, the first principle is - a marriage should NEVER be Him versus You. If there is a problem it becomes The Problem versus The Marriage - with both you and your husband fighting on the side of The Marriage. Together. Of course, like soldiers in a battlefield, one soldier might be injured or captured by the enemy or mentally incapacitated or got brainwashed by the enemy. This is where you get to help that soldier fight against the enemy even harder... or even fight the enemy single-handed if necessary.

So, how does this apply to your problem? Well, from the very limited amount of information you provided, it might be that this is the blockbuster fight between The Hurtful Communication Style versus The Marriage. The husband got captured by the enemy camp because he doesn't have the proper skillset to fight The Problem. Now, your husband may not know that he is fighting with the enemy instead of with the marriage. For all he knows, he probably thinks he's fighting on the side of The Marriage. So, what you first need to do is let him realize he is aiding and abetting the enemy and hurting the marriage. Of course, this requires that you also have the proper skillset to effectively communicate this to him. After you get him to realize this, then you can both put your heads together to figure out how to fight The Problem.

Okay, of course, it's not as simple as this. But, what a temple marriage requires is the realization that it is not You versus Your Husband. Once you realize this, then you'll have a bigger chance of saving your marriage.

And please don't forget to put in the equation the welfare of your children. And please replace any selfish notions with that of charity and love. That should give you more ammunition to fight The Problem.

Edited December 21, 2012 by anatess