Mormonism/ I'm Addicated To The Smiles

[Guest The First Sin]

Okay why would Jesus need to come to America, I seriously don't see the point of it. And Jesus came during a time when the indians we're being mass-murdered by the white man, and didn't even intercede. And all of the Prophets shared in Christianity, Judaism, and Islam we're all in the Middle Eastern region including Jesus.

Don't be offended but why did the white man need their own testiment, when you already had 3 world religions prior to mormonism?

And why are majority of the 8 witnesses in the book of Mormon related there are 3 smiths, and 4 Whitmers.

By them being all related this doesn't make you question their testimonys.? and how many of the people financially invested in 'The book of Mormon'.

Christian Whitmer

Jacob Whitmer

Peter Whitmer, Jun

John Whitmer

Hiram Page

Joseph Smith, Sen

Hyrum Smith

Samuel H. Smith

Help me out

and also concerning the first 3 witnesses, its a well known fact that Oliver Cowdery and Joseph Smith were third cousins (Oliver Cowdery: The Elusive Second Elder of the Restoration, Phillip R. Legg, p. 17)

[Outshined]

Man, have you been given some bad information. The BOM takes place in Biblical times, not 19th-century America. By all means read it for yourself so you have first-hand knowledge on the subject. The Book of Mormon was never intended to be for "the white man;" it is for everyone.

To be honest it makes me question your motivations when you go to the trouble of researching who was related to whom without having even basic knowledge of the book you are apparently trying to discredit.

Check out some information: http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons (My website has a lot more links for you to check as well.)

[CrimsonKairos]

As Outshined said, read up on your basics before you start dissecting the complex. Unless you all have a different way of analyzing/studying over there in Hawaii.

[MaidservantX]

'Religion' is just a word. Which by the way, I love etymology, and 'religion' goes back to a word meaning 'to tie' which puts me in mind of binding or covenants. The Covenant.

There are some heavy connotations in our world to say 'church' or 'religion'.

I personally like to strip it away like this:

God talks to us. And sometimes we answer back. And sometimes somebody makes a record of their conversation with God.

THAT'S the fundamental experience. It's not just, or even, trying to decide if something is true or factual or if we're supposed to obedient. Now, God will talk to us about all those things -- truth, obedience and much more.

But first it's just God saying "Adam, Adam -- where are you?" The best thing is just to say, "Here I Am. Before I was hiding because I was ashamed. But here I am now." God is calling for us because he wants us, he likes us, he knows us, he loves us, he thinks we're amazing.

[mom_of_jcchlsm]

BoM events take place covering a time period roughly 2000 to 1000 years before Columbus sailed the oceans blue.

[CrimsonKairos]

Well said xhenli.

[Palerider]

Okay why would Jesus need to come to America, I seriously don't see the point of it. And Jesus came during a time when the indians we're being mass-murdered by the white man, and didn't even intercede. And all of the Prophets shared in Christianity, Judaism, and Islam we're all in the Middle Eastern region including Jesus.

Don't be offended but why did the white man need their own testiment, when you already had 3 world religions prior to mormonism?

And why are majority of the 8 witnesses in the book of Mormon related there are 3 smiths, and 4 Whitmers.

By them being all related this doesn't make you question their testimonys.? and how many of the people financially invested in 'The book of Mormon'.

Christian Whitmer

Jacob Whitmer

Peter Whitmer, Jun

John Whitmer

Hiram Page

Joseph Smith, Sen

Hyrum Smith

Samuel H. Smith

Help me out

and also concerning the first 3 witnesses, its a well known fact that Oliver Cowdery and Joseph Smith were third cousins (Oliver Cowdery: The Elusive Second Elder of the Restoration, Phillip R. Legg, p. 17)

you need to help yourself......get the facts straight.....did you read this from a book by Wally Martin???

[Guest The First Sin]

im only speaking of when Joseph Smith found the plates, thats all im discussing. And still nobody answered my question. And Moderator thank you for telling the whole world im in Hawaii.

[Traveler]

im only speaking of when Joseph Smith found the plates, thats all im discussing. And still nobody answered my question. And Moderator thank you for telling the whole world im in Hawaii.

You still have facts mixed up. The mass murders that you are so quick to point out were all done by Christians. And if you see a problem with the mass murders then you must understand something was wrong with Christianity and therefore a need for a change.

The Traveler

[Guest The First Sin]

I do think something is the matter with christianity, and I am not a Christian. But im trying to figure out why Jesus needed to decend into America...

And if this was a trial the judge being related to the defendent or the accused would be considered a conflict of interest. And that judge could possibly never be fair in dealing with the case.

[Guest The First Sin]

Just some Logic from an Ex-Mormon

In my studying of the Spanish language, I found that even when translating between two languages that are as similar as Spanish and English, there is still a lot of possible differences between two person’s translations of the same material. It was obvious to me that when translating between two languages that have nothing in common like Hebrew and English, the variations should be much more marked. So why, then, did the parts of Isaiah from the Bible appear virtually identical in the Book of Mormon? And the two weren’t even translated from the same source or under the same circumstance.

The half of the Book of Mormon supposedly written before Christ completely resembles modern Christian thought, and not the Old Testament and Mosaic law that would be logical. There were many references to baptism, the gift of the Holy Ghost, the name Jesus Christ, and other things that should exist only in A.D times.

I noticed that the Bible and Book of Mormon contradicted each other, but not so much as did these scriptures with the current Mormon doctrine. For example, as missionaries, we were to teach that the method of baptism has always been the same and cannot be changed in any way, that it must be done word for word. But the Book of Mormon shows the prophet Alma baptizing by an alternate method (Mosiah 18:12-16). And the wording now used is different from that taught by Jesus himself in the Book of Mormon. (3 Nephi 11:24-25). In the same chapter of 3 Nephi, verse 40 says, "And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them."

All of the biblical scriptures that the Mormon church claims uniquely prove Mormonism are really vague scriptures that have to be interpreted quite imaginatively to make them look like they support Mormon doctrine.

Aside from the book of Mormon, the Mormon doctrine contains irreconcilable conflicts with science. Mormons say that there was no death before Adam ate the forbidden fruit and that the dinosaurs lived at the same time as Adam. This, I cannot accept at all. It completely contradicts every known fact of biology, paleontology, and archaeology.

[Guest MrsS]

And Moderator thank you for telling the whole world im in Hawaii.

For crying out loud - get a grip! Hawaii is large enough to get lost in, your identity and location are still a mystery.

I live in Arizona - Pinal County. Used to live in Oregon, Lincoln County, before that Washington, King County. Was born in South Dakota, Fall River County. There is not enough information there for anyone to FIND me.

Just some Logic from an Ex-Mormon

In my studying of the Spanish language, I found that even when translating between two languages that are as similar as Spanish and English, there is still a lot of possible differences between two person’s translations of the same material. It was obvious to me that when translating between two languages that have nothing in common like Hebrew and English, the variations should be much more marked. So why, then, did the parts of Isaiah from the Bible appear virtually identical in the Book of Mormon? And the two weren’t even translated from the same source or under the same circumstance.

The half of the Book of Mormon supposedly written before Christ completely resembles modern Christian thought, and not the Old Testament and Mosaic law that would be logical. There were many references to baptism, the gift of the Holy Ghost, the name Jesus Christ, and other things that should exist only in A.D times.

I noticed that the Bible and Book of Mormon contradicted each other, but not so much as did these scriptures with the current Mormon doctrine. For example, as missionaries, we were to teach that the method of baptism has always been the same and cannot be changed in any way, that it must be done word for word. But the Book of Mormon shows the prophet Alma baptizing by an alternate method (Mosiah 18:12-16). And the wording now used is different from that taught by Jesus himself in the Book of Mormon. (3 Nephi 11:24-25). In the same chapter of 3 Nephi, verse 40 says, "And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them."

All of the biblical scriptures that the Mormon church claims uniquely prove Mormonism are really vague scriptures that have to be interpreted quite imaginatively to make them look like they support Mormon doctrine.

Aside from the book of Mormon, the Mormon doctrine contains irreconcilable conflicts with science. Mormons say that there was no death before Adam ate the forbidden fruit and that the dinosaurs lived at the same time as Adam. This, I cannot accept at all. It completely contradicts every known fact of biology, paleontology, and archaeology.

The Bible wasn't translated by revelation. The Book of Mormon WAS - that is your difference.

[Dale]

How do we know we can trust the authors of the New Testament? Hitler was willing to let German soldiers fight to the end to preserve a lost evil cause? Even if the Apostles were martyrs that says nothing about the truth of what they said. They were in cahoots in telling the story of Jesus. I trust the story, but it's as easy for Book of Mormon plate witnesses to testify of the Book of Mormon as it is for witnesses to swear stuff about Jesus.

Being an Apostle gave men around Jesus power. Maybe they had access to money also that was comparable to profits from the Book of Mormon publication. Money back then was worth more I am sure.

[MaidservantX]

Evidence and proof are not the same thing.

Evidence can be gathered to support (nearly) any thesis desired in heaven or earth.

The only way to PROVE that Jesus is the living Christ the Son of God; that Joseph Smith thru Gordon B. Hinckley are his prophets; that the Book of Mormon was translated by His power and is correct as being a record of the peoples it says it is; and has the gospel in it; and that the gospel and report and administration of the Plan of Salvation has been restored; IS by --

a witness of the Holy Ghost.

The Church of Jesus Christ does not ask people to be convinced by their doctrine; nor even to be convinced by the Book of Mormon. They do not expect an individual to be convinced or persuaded by anything on earth.

It is between you and your Father. If you do not have a witness of the Holy Ghost, then you cannot violate that witness. There's not a condemnation, unless you consider 'missing out' a condemnation. If you do have a witness of the Holy Ghost (on any principle; church investigators are asked to begin with a witness of the Book of Mormon's truthfulness), it's impossible to violate.

[MaidservantX]

I have had three witnesses in my life. Oddly enough, none of them were about the Book of Mormon directly. I will share the most recent one that I had.

A few months ago in Relief Society, the teacher invited the missionaries to give the first discussion as our Relief Society lesson. I was not expecting to think or feel anything except for the general nice feeling I feel in church. I always worry that I am not and cannot feel the spirit in my meetings. I am too hardened and too wounded. So I don't expect much in that department. That day, I certainly wasn't asking for a witness nor was I awash in some goody-two shoes faith. I also thought it a little funny, because the missionaries were trying to coordinate their duet for the discussion and I think the one gave the other a dirty look, I could almost swear. However, as I heard their very simple words telling me the Plan -- the Plan! The Plan my Father made for me! -- I experienced sensations of mind, heart and body I have never before nor since experienced, nor could ever have imagined for myself as how the Holy Ghost would feel. For me, it was not so much an addition of feeling, as that I had the feeling that every thing that was not true was cleared away; like a heavy dark drape being slid away from a window and the bright, clear sun coming in -- these simple words were true and the missionaries were messengers from my Father. The feeling stayed with me until the end of the discussion. As I'm sitting here, I remember that hour and am so grateful for it; it's like a jewel. But I could not ever be able to reproduce that feeling on my own if I tried, and believe me I have. And another thing is -- I love to tell people about it!

[lisajo]

AHHHHHHH it's just our usual nut job coming to try to frazle and shock us, we get these guys all the time, don't fall for those trolls they think they can get a rise from us

[Outshined]

I agree; he/she doesn't even know what the Book of Mormon is, and is attacking it with anti sources...

Troll.

[MaidservantX]

It hurts me to hear you speak about a child of God like this.

[Outshined]

Everyone is a child of God, but when they register on a message board to engage in troll activities, we call it what it is.

It certainly does not appear that First Sin is here for "answers", but to cut and paste from anti-Mormon sites, even though he/she hasn't the faintest idea what Mormonism is about. That is a troll.

[StrawberryFields]

Just to let you know as of 10:50 last night The First Sin is on moderator preview for three days while his account is being reviewed.

[Traveler]

Everyone is a child of God, but when they register on a message board to engage in troll activities, we call it what it is.

It certainly does not appear that First Sin is here for "answers", but to cut and paste from anti-Mormon sites, even though he/she hasn't the faintest idea what Mormonism is about. That is a troll.

You are so wise Outshined - Sorry for the sarcasm but I agree with you completely. A troll on the internet is as easy to spot as a pile of dung on a new white carpet. For the internet newbie’s to religious LDS discussions you may find the following helpful for spotting a troll:

1. They pretend to have a question about some LDS doctrine – In truth they already think they know the answer which is that LDS are as dumb as a sack of nails.

2. The questions are always straight from anti-LDS material. They obviously have studied anti-LDS junk but their eyes and hearts have never considered the LDS point of view. Every time a gullible LDS attempts to respond they will counter with more anti-LDS junk and heavily biased statistics.

3. They hide their religious identity and feelings. They have no message of benefit, love or consideration. There only purpose is to convince us LDS that we are stupid and silly.

There is more but this is enough to spot 90% of the wolves attempting to come among and devour the flock rather than act like a shepherd.

The Traveler

[MaidservantX]

I am aware of where First is coming from. That awareness does not lead me to contention or put downs. (Debating is not always the same as contention -- I love a great 'debate'!!!) :)

[MaidservantX]

I have no desire whatsoever to scold anyone. We're all coming from a point of view, and I truly appreciate everyone's. However, last night as I thought for several minutes whether or not to say anything about my experience in reading some of these replies, I thought that in the end I would not respect myself if I kept silent in this case. I have kept silent at other times reading things that I thought were not kind. But I know we are all friends here (mostly, I hope) and we can work it all out. And I know that we need to keep lds standards one this site, I REALLY appreciate that, so I don't necessarily think 'everything goes' and I have not, of course, appreciated all of First's expressions, either.

[Outshined]

"Troll" is not a put-down nor is it contentious; it is a statement of the poster's intention.

In Internet terminology, a troll is a person who enters an established community such as an online discussion forum and intentionally tries to cause disruption, often in the form of posting messages that are inflammatory, insulting, incorrect, inaccurate, or off-topic, with the intent of provoking a reaction from others.

The shoe fits.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

[CrimsonKairos]

Yeah xhenli, "troll" isn't describing the person's worth as a child of God. It labels their behavior on message boards. I do think TFS is a troll (but without the ridiculously bright neon hair that makes the toys of the same name bearable, lol). B)