Is there a GOD??

[Roseslipper]

I know their is a God I am His Daughter a child of God....I have had spiritual dreams and I have had nitemares I had a nitemare last night I hope it isnt true.....angels are men, not woman is that correct?

[Seminarysnoozer]

In addition this is an experience give by President Henry B. Eyring:

The question, was he pondering and awake, or was his sleeping? It appears to me that President Eyrings grandfather was asleep when this dream was given.

The account of Pharaoh as given in scripture:

"And the ill favoured and leanfleshed kine did eat up the seven well favoured and fat kine. So Pharaoh awoke.

5 And he slept and dreamed the second time:"

In this experience also, we receive evidence the Pharaoh was asleep, and he awoke, and then he slept and dreamed again a second time. In both experiences, the Pharaoh received a dream while he was asleep -- unconscious.

We find evidence in scripture that there are two types of visions in the night, which can be defined also as night visions that happen when people are pondering the words of scripture and when they are asleep.

If the brain is unconscious then it is the spirit that is receiving the message. Believing there is such a thing as unconscious learning is farther out there then saying we know the neuroanatomy of REM sleep.

[Seminarysnoozer]

First off, modern science has no idea what causes dreams. There are many learned men whom think that they have figured out how our brains work. But in my opinion they are grasping at straws.

If God wants to deliver a message to a man or woman during a waking vision, any of the 5 phases of sleep, within the 4 phases of anesthesia, or even during a near death experience... He can do it.

That is because you failed to mention learned women. :)

You are right, "what causes" any physiology of the body could be argued but how is a different topic. We do know the how and where of REM and non-REM sleep circuitry in the brain as well as many other functions. .... bones are less complicated.

What God can do and what He does may be two different things. That is an argument found in "man's" court of law, if there is any suspicion it could be done another way then the proposed way is false. Great argument!

[Anddenex]

If the brain is unconscious then it is the spirit that is receiving the message. Believing there is such a thing as unconscious learning is farther out there then saying we know the neuroanatomy of REM sleep.

I refer to "unconscious" because you defined sleeping/dreaming as an unconscious state.

I, however, believe that our minds are very alert during certain periods of our dreams, which is why we remember them and which is why at times we have dreams within dreams.

Our mind must be active and alert in order to remember the dream, some more vividly than others.

[Anddenex]

I know their is a God I am His Daughter a child of God....I have had spiritual dreams and I have had nitemares I had a nitemare last night I hope it isnt true.....angels are men, not woman is that correct?

Angels are both men and women. However, in scripture, we only know of angels who are men.

The angels which sang at Christ's birth could easily have been both men and women singing.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I refer to "unconscious" because you defined sleeping/dreaming as an unconscious state.

I, however, believe that our minds are very alert during certain periods of our dreams, which is why we remember them and which is why at times we have dreams within dreams.

Our mind must be active and alert in order to remember the dream, some more vividly than others.

Not sure how you are defining "alert". It is active, for sure. The brain uses as much energy at night as it does during the day. Sleep is an active process. But if you are using the word "alert" to signify some kind of level of consciousness that the person is in control of, I disagree with that. Drunkenness fits the same description, the brain is alert but but the person may not have conscious control. Or under the influence of drugs, etc. People describe having control over dreams etc. but what is happening there (and yes this has been studied watching brain waves during sleep) is that the person momentarily wakes up and there is sleep-state misperception. In other words, the person thinks they are asleep when they are not. Whenever one's brain makes sleep it erases memory of what just happened over the last 2 to 5 minutes. So, going in and out of sleep would make it hard to keep track of time and the person can string together several wake episodes as if they were in control of their dreams as there is dreaming in between the episodes of wakefulness.

On top of that, you would have to define "mind". The brain is active but of course, LDS believe we are dual beings, both spirit and body. So, having one of them active and in control alone is not necessarily "our self" or considered the "mind". Satan uses the things that come from this world to have influence over. God speaks through the spirit.

Could God use physical things to communicate? Sure, I will give you all that. But does He usually use that medium? No. At this time, that is the domain of Satan. God speaks through the Holy Spirit directly to our spirit. We are taught to seek Him through the spirit, not physical means other than getting the physical under reverent control so we can hear the spirit. For example, we don't get drunk to find God.

Edited March 14, 2013 by Seminarysnoozer

[Anddenex]

Not sure how you are defining "alert".

I am aware that I am dreaming, whether that be a dream within a dream, or a dream I am awoken from.

It is active, for sure. The brain uses as much energy at night as it does during the day. Sleep is an active process. But if you are using the word "alert" to signify some kind of level of consciousness that the person is in control of, I disagree with that. Drunkenness fits the same description, the brain is alert but but the person may not have conscious control. Or under the influence of drugs, etc. People describe having control over dreams etc. but what is happening there (and yes this has been studied watching brain waves during sleep) is that the person momentarily wakes up and there is sleep-state misperception.

I, honestly, am not understanding your analogy in comparing dreams with drunkenness, smoking weed, or doing any other drug.

Dreams are a result of our earthly body makeup. When we drink, or do drugs, we are doing something to our bodies that has a consequence -- unnatural. When we dream, while we are sleeping, this is a natural course of rest for our bodies.

Studies are interesting, in and of themselves, due to the level of interpretations that can be given for the results. I have a hard time believing our brain erases memories, a person's inability to recall something doesn't dictate their memory was erased, simply forgotten.

Satan uses the things that come from this world to have influence over. At this time, that is the domain of Satan. God speaks through the spirit... But does He usually use that medium? No.

This isn't entirely correct. God uses and influences the things around us to communicate to his children all the time. Examples: Moses and the burning bush (physical), the parting of the Red Sea (Moses = spiritual, the children of Israel -- very much physical), dreams are using a physical medium to communicate to our spirits, ministering angels are very much phyiscal (four of the five senses would be applicable here), all the signs given to Pharaoh were physical in nature: plagues, frogs, water to blood, etc...

We are taught to seek Him through the spirit, not physical means other than getting the physical under reverent control so we can hear the spirit. For example, we don't get drunk to find God.

Yes, we are. We are taught to seek God through the spirit. We are also taught that if our eye become single to his glory then we may have the opportunity for him to personally visit us (physical) and communicate with us.

Again, I am not understanding your comparison with dreams and becoming drunk. In order to become drunk a person must drink a man made substance. A dream is a natural consequence of sleep.

People are welcome to pray for dreams, such that, God will communicate through them. I have experienced this, and I know others have as well.

[Vort]

I am aware that I am dreaming, whether that be a dream within a dream, or a dream I am awoken from.

[ hijack]

When I started work a year ago at a new company, they gave me my first-ever Macbook. While I was learning the navigate the Mac OS, I often worked on it in Windows. Rather than booting the computer in Windows, I preferred to run Windows on a virtual machine (VM) so that I could stay in the Mac OS and learn it, too. Naturally, I wanted to see if I could run a VM inside the VM running the Windows OS. But I couldn't get it working; somehow, the guest OS knew it was a guest OS and not the host OS, which I thought wasn't supposed to happen. Anyway, I went to an IT guy and explained my problem to him. His response was classic: "Oh, yes, that's what's technically known as 'Inceptioning'."

(But he couldn't help me.)

[Vort]

I am aware that I am dreaming, whether that be a dream within a dream, or a dream I am awoken from.

[ hijack]

When I started work a year ago at a new company, they gave me my first-ever Macbook. While I was learning the navigate the Mac OS, I often worked on it in Windows. Rather than booting the computer in Windows, I preferred to run Windows on a virtual machine (VM) so that I could stay in the Mac OS and learn it, too. Naturally, I wanted to see if I could run a VM inside the VM running the Windows OS. But I couldn't get it working; somehow, the guest OS knew it was a guest OS and not the host OS, which I thought wasn't supposed to happen. Anyway, I went to an IT guy and explained my problem to him. His response was classic: "Oh, yes, that's what's technically known as 'Inceptioning'."

(But he couldn't help me.)

[ /hijack]

[Seminarysnoozer]

I am aware that I am dreaming, whether that be a dream within a dream, or a dream I am awoken from.

I, honestly, am not understanding your analogy in comparing dreams with drunkenness, smoking weed, or doing any other drug.

Dreams are a result of our earthly body makeup. When we drink, or do drugs, we are doing something to our bodies that has a consequence -- unnatural. When we dream, while we are sleeping, this is a natural course of rest for our bodies.

Studies are interesting, in and of themselves, due to the level of interpretations that can be given for the results. I have a hard time believing our brain erases memories, a person's inability to recall something doesn't dictate their memory was erased, simply forgotten.

This isn't entirely correct. God uses and influences the things around us to communicate to his children all the time. Examples: Moses and the burning bush (physical), the parting of the Red Sea (Moses = spiritual, the children of Israel -- very much physical), dreams are using a physical medium to communicate to our spirits, ministering angels are very much phyiscal (four of the five senses would be applicable here), all the signs given to Pharaoh were physical in nature: plagues, frogs, water to blood, etc...

Yes, we are. We are taught to seek God through the spirit. We are also taught that if our eye become single to his glory then we may have the opportunity for him to personally visit us (physical) and communicate with us.

Again, I am not understanding your comparison with dreams and becoming drunk. In order to become drunk a person must drink a man made substance. A dream is a natural consequence of sleep.

People are welcome to pray for dreams, such that, God will communicate through them. I have experienced this, and I know others have as well.

The only reason I am using drunkenness or drugs etc. is because that is an example where the brain is alert but the person retains very little recall of their actions or has limited perception and they typically do not act like themselves. The state the brain is in during sleep is similar. Could God teach someone when they are in a drunken like state? Sure, but this is not God's preferred method. Like the story of the first vision, God would prefer that we study it out in our mind and ponder over things for a while and then ask during a state of consciousness. Look up "Altered state of consciousness", for a basic understanding of what I am talking about. On wikipedia for example it states that ASC can be reached by "lucid dreaming" as well as being drunk, meningitis, designer drugs, during child birth, etc.

Jesus asked the apostles to not fall asleep but the body is weak, even when the spirit is willing.

People should not pray for dreams, they should pray for understanding and a confirmation from the spirit, both of which take consciousness.

Do you believe the image of Jesus that comes out on a piece of toasted bread is from God?

Jesus brought a more excellent way to learn of God and to worship him. Lets not forget that even Lehi's dream occurred before the more excellent way was introduced. The more excellent way is through the spirit, the Holy Ghost not through the law pertaining to the body. These are similar arguments by Paul in 1 Corinthians 12 : " 1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit."

He hoped the people wouldn't stay in the state of ignorance being led by physical signs but realize now, with Jesus Christ that "no man can say that Jesus is the Lord but by the Holy Ghost." not by idols or physical signs anymore. And at the end of the chapter he calls this the more excellent way. We covet the gifts of the spirit, not the gifts of the physical. " 31 But acovet earnestly the best bgifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way."

[mikbone]

People should not pray for dreams, they should pray for understanding and a confirmation from the spirit, both of which take consciousness.

I disagree with you with all my heart.

Visions and dreams are most excellent ways to learn about the gospel. Some people receive revelation via the still small voice, others hear words in their minds, some have visions or dreams.

You seem to have appointed yourself as the revelation police... Or am I incorrect.

D&C 138 is clearly a vision. And the information that Joseph F. Smith received in that vision was much more informative than what one can receive from a feeling of peace. When we ask for answers to prayers we usually study out an idea in our minds and ask if our conclusions are correct or not. The burning in the bosom is a YES answer to a question. But some questions cannot be answered with a yes or no response. Some answers to prayers require much more profound revelation. visions and dreams can be the the answer to complex questions.

I have had a waking vision on more than one occasion. I would not have traded those experiences for a burning in the bosom.

You may want to review

Personal Revelation - Ensign Sept. 1999 - ensign

See also

Letter from Joseph Smith to Isaac Galland, Mar. 22, 1839, Liberty Jail, Liberty, Missouri, published in Times and Seasons, Feb. 1840, p. 54.

“We believe that we have a right to revelations, visions, and dreams from God, our heavenly Father; and light and intelligence, through the gift of the Holy Ghost, in the name of Jesus Christ, on all subjects pertaining to our spiritual welfare; if it so be that we keep his commandments, so as to render ourselves worthy in his sight.”

Edited March 15, 2013 by mikbone

[Praetorian_Brow]

Its easy to confuse revelation with subconscious processing.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I disagree with you with all my heart.

Visions and dreams are most excellent ways to learn about the gospel. Some people receive revelation via the still small voice, others hear words in their minds, some have visions or dreams.

You seem to have appointed yourself as the revelation police... Or am I incorrect.

D&C 138 is clearly a vision. And the information that Joseph F. Smith received in that vision was much more informative than what one can receive from a feeling of peace. When we ask for answers to prayers we usually study out an idea in our minds and ask if our conclusions are correct or not. The burning in the bosom is a YES answer to a question. But some questions cannot be answered with a yes or no response. Some answers to prayers require much more profound revelation. visions and dreams can be the the answer to complex questions.

I have had a waking vision on more than one occasion. I would not have traded those experiences for a burning in the bosom.

You may want to review

Personal Revelation - Ensign Sept. 1999 - ensign

See also

Letter from Joseph Smith to Isaac Galland, Mar. 22, 1839, Liberty Jail, Liberty, Missouri, published in Times and Seasons, Feb. 1840, p. 54.

“We believe that we have a right to revelations, visions, and dreams from God, our heavenly Father; and light and intelligence, through the gift of the Holy Ghost, in the name of Jesus Christ, on all subjects pertaining to our spiritual welfare; if it so be that we keep his commandments, so as to render ourselves worthy in his sight.”

Sorry if I came across that way. I was more trying to have a deeper discussion about the misconception a lot of people have when using the word "dream". I agree with everything you have said above. In fact I think the article you gave is perfect. 99% of it talks about all the things that have to be done in the conscious state before receiving the inspiration or revelation, which was part of my point. Then the message may come at any point, such as when it happens at night and a person was sleeping and they are pulled out of sleep to receive a vision, a "dream". Not to be confused with REM sleep.

I the same paragraph that you highlighted "visions and dreams" it also says "light and intelligence". Am I to understand then that I should make sure that when I am receiving information that I am in a well lit area or that when I receive intelligence I should glow like a light bulb? .... it says "light". That has in fact happened, when the early elders received inspiration their countenance changed. So, should I look for ways to make my skin look lighter? Or should I stare into the sun to receive revelation?

Likewise, I wouldn't over interpret the word "dream". A dream in this sense is a vision. It is not REM sleep. Just like "light" is not a light bulb or the sun etc.

[Anddenex]

Its easy to confuse revelation with subconscious processing.

And you are expert enough to know the difference?

[Anddenex]

Jesus asked the apostles to not fall asleep but the body is weak, even when the spirit is willing.

This statement is irrelevant to the discussion regarding dreams. Of course he didn't ask them to fall asleep, he asked them to watch. Grasping at straws with this comment.

People should not pray for dreams, they should pray for understanding and a confirmation from the spirit, both of which take consciousness.

Personal opinion. We should pray for any type of learning our Heavenly Father uses as a medium to teach us. We know the Lord uses the medium of dreams to receive answers and to provide knowledge.

Do you believe the image of Jesus that comes out on a piece of toasted bread is from God?

Again this is irrelevant to the discussion of dreams. We know, there is no doubt, that Pharaoh received a vision a dream while sleeping in scripture. Jesus's image on toast, in a pan, on pizza, in a coffee mug, on a potato chip, etc... are irrelevant to our discussion.

The premise we are discussing, does God communicate through dreams. Yes, he does. Scripture provides evidence to this. Let us look at words shared by W.W. Phelps with regard to quoting Joseph Smith.

"The next scene, on landing, was more than I can describe: the greeting of old friends, the music from a thousand towers, and the light of God himself at the return of three of his sons, soothed my soul into a quiet and a joy that I felt as if I was truly in heaven. I gazed upon the splendor; I greeted my friends, I awoke, and lo, it was a dream!" (emphasis added).

Very interesting dream provided by Joseph Smith to W. W. Phelps. Notice the words provided, "I awoke...it was a dream!"

On our Church website we read, "One way that God reveals His will to men and women on earth. Not all dreams are revelations, however. Inspired dreams are the fruit of faith." (Source)

From these experiences, from the scriptures, and from the Church website alone, I can determine your information to be inaccurate.

Jesus brought a more excellent way to learn of God and to worship him.

The Lord did bring about a more excellent way, and please notice, Joseph Smith who believed in dreams was after the more excellent way had been introduced. We know from scripture that a person comes to know God through the Holy Ghost.

We also know, that the Lord communicate through dreams.

[Anddenex]

I have had a waking vision on more than one occasion.

I want to say thank you for your thoughts. I completely agree with your assessment, because I too have experienced similar revelations.

Although, I want to ask when you use the phrase "waking vision", I have to wonder...are you by chance a Dune fan?

[mikbone]

I want to say thank you for your thoughts. I completely agree with your assessment, because I too have experienced similar revelations.

Although, I want to ask when you use the phrase "waking vision", I have to wonder...are you by chance a Dune fan?

"The sleeper has awakened!!"

[Anddenex]

"The sleeper has awakened!!"

I would have been shocked if you said, "No."

[mikbone]

I the same paragraph that you highlighted "visions and dreams" it also says "light and intelligence". Am I to understand then that I should make sure that when I am receiving information that I am in a well lit area or that when I receive intelligence I should glow like a light bulb? .... it says "light". That has in fact happened, when the early elders received inspiration their countenance changed. So, should I look for ways to make my skin look lighter? Or should I stare into the sun to receive revelation?

Likewise, I wouldn't over interpret the word "dream". A dream in this sense is a vision. It is not REM sleep. Just like "light" is not a light bulb or the sun etc.

Really??

[Seminarysnoozer]

This statement is irrelevant to the discussion regarding dreams. Of course he didn't ask them to fall asleep, he asked them to watch. Grasping at straws with this comment.

Personal opinion. We should pray for any type of learning our Heavenly Father uses as a medium to teach us. We know the Lord uses the medium of dreams to receive answers and to provide knowledge.

Again this is irrelevant to the discussion of dreams. We know, there is no doubt, that Pharaoh received a vision a dream while sleeping in scripture. Jesus's image on toast, in a pan, on pizza, in a coffee mug, on a potato chip, etc... are irrelevant to our discussion.

The premise we are discussing, does God communicate through dreams. Yes, he does. Scripture provides evidence to this. Let us look at words shared by W.W. Phelps with regard to quoting Joseph Smith.

"The next scene, on landing, was more than I can describe: the greeting of old friends, the music from a thousand towers, and the light of God himself at the return of three of his sons, soothed my soul into a quiet and a joy that I felt as if I was truly in heaven. I gazed upon the splendor; I greeted my friends, I awoke, and lo, it was a dream!" (emphasis added).

Very interesting dream provided by Joseph Smith to W. W. Phelps. Notice the words provided, "I awoke...it was a dream!"

On our Church website we read, "One way that God reveals His will to men and women on earth. Not all dreams are revelations, however. Inspired dreams are the fruit of faith." (Source)

From these experiences, from the scriptures, and from the Church website alone, I can determine your information to be inaccurate.

The Lord did bring about a more excellent way, and please notice, Joseph Smith who believed in dreams was after the more excellent way had been introduced. We know from scripture that a person comes to know God through the Holy Ghost.

We also know, that the Lord communicate through dreams.

So, if you so strongly believe that God can communicate to us when we are unconscious and therefore we cannot use the typical methods of determining whether we are feeling the spirit at that time as the person obviously is not feeling anything when they are unconscious; How can one determine whether a dream is a message from God or just a dream? Of course, your response cannot be anything related to after the event in terms of pondering the event, thinking about it and receiving some confirmation from the Holy Spirit that it was indeed a communication from God as that is what I have been saying all along. I have been saying that the real communication comes from a spirit to spirit connection during wakefulness and not during sleep of any stage. So, without you using any form of wakefulness as a to determine what is from God or not, tell me how one can know that it is a message from God and not just some random dream.

Especially since the church spends no effort in teaching us such things. I have never had a class on dream interpretation, or the proper method of reaching a lucid dream state to communicate with God. All you who think this is an accepted way to attempt to communicate with God, please show me the official instructions on such a thing. I suspect if you find anything on it, it will only say that some have received "dreams" (which really means visions, as the Topical Guide in the scriptures says "See Visions" under the topic of "dreams"). And then there may be discussion about personal revelation requiring study, ponder, listening to the spirit etc. ... all the things that require wakefulness. Don't include any of that in your instructions as that is what I already agree is the proper way to receive personal revelation, there is no argument there.

My brother in law, who is in the Stake Presidency, told me the other day that he had a dream in which it was a peaceful feeling of floating up into the clouds and when he got so high he couldn't breath anymore he suddenly found himself in a place where there were many people walking around in white robes. He assumed this was heaven. Then he saw God looking out a window of a tall building as he was chewing on a bloody piece of meat. That made him feel suddenly scared. He then heard a voice, "don't be scared." And at that moment he felt drips of blood from the piece of meat hit his face. My brother in law tells me that this was a dream to tell him that it was okay to eat raw or barely cooked meat, that it wouldn't hurt him. I told him I thought it was just a dream but obviously, according to you all, I have no idea what I am talking about.

Last night, I had a dream of finding a large egg on my porch. It cracked open and a beautiful butterfly came out of it, purple and green and orange. Then suddenly, I was swimming off the coast of Ensenada and I dove down under the water and saw several Garibaldi. I swam after one of them but couldn't catch it. When I got closer it started to turn purple. Then I woke up .... which allowed me to remember the dream by thinking about what was stored in my active memory for the past 5 minutes. So, was that a message from God? It must be if Addenex is saying that it is a "huge" way that God communicates with his children. I have no idea what to learn from that dream, I would rather learn from reading the scriptures and feeling the spirit. But I guess, to each her own.

[mikbone]

How can one determine whether a dream is a message from God or just a dream?

I'm not sure, but it seems to me that you are just being contentious.

There have been so many latter day talks about how to determine if revelation is from God...

LDS.org - Sunday School Chapter Detail - Recognizing Personal Revelation

Speeches

Holy Ghost/Revelation from God or the devil - FAIRMormon

Just to name few that I pulled up with a Internet search.

[Anddenex]

So, if you so strongly believe that God can communicate to us when we are unconscious and therefore we cannot use the typical methods of determining whether we are feeling the spirit at that time as the person obviously is not feeling anything when they are unconscious; How can one determine whether a dream is a message from God or just a dream? Of course, your response cannot be anything related to after the event in terms of pondering the event, thinking about it and receiving some confirmation from the Holy Spirit that it was indeed a communication from God as that is what I have been saying all along. I have been saying that the real communication comes from a spirit to spirit connection during wakefulness and not during sleep of any stage. So, without you using any form of wakefulness as a to determine what is from God or not, tell me how one can know that it is a message from God and not just some random dream.

The same way Pharaoh new his dream was more than a dream. The same way Joseph and others new their dreams were from God.

Joseph in Egypt said it best when he said, " And Joseph said unto them, Do not interpretations belong to God? tell me them, I pray you." As with our dreams, God is the provider of the interpretations. We receive interpretation through God.

Communication comes through dreams. Interpretations of the dream are received while we are awake.

Especially since the church spends no effort in teaching us such things. I have never had a class on dream interpretation, or the proper method of reaching a lucid dream state to communicate with God. All you who think this is an accepted way to attempt to communicate with God, please show me the official instructions on such a thing.

Irrelevant. The Church doesn't need to provide classes on how this is possible. They happen on the Lord's time table.

Let me again provide you evidence even from the Church's website, "One way that God reveals His will to men and women on earth. Not all dreams are revelations, however. Inspired dreams are the fruit of faith." This is directly from the Church's website, and is very apparent that the Church teaches dreams are an avenue to the Lord uses to teach his children. Since it is in scripture it is also apparent that God feels this is an acceptable way to communicate with his children.

I suspect if you find anything on it, it will only say that some have received "dreams" (which really means visions, as the Topical Guide in the scriptures says "See Visions" under the topic of "dreams").

Indeed dreams are visions, and these visions also happen while people are asleep and when they are awake. Pharaoh and Nebuchadnezzar were both asleep and were awoken from their dreams, their visions, which lead to personal interpretations.

My brother in law, who is in the Stake Presidency, told me the other day that he had a dream in which it was a peaceful feeling of floating up into the clouds and when he got so high he couldn't breath anymore he suddenly found himself in a place where there were many people walking around in white robes. He assumed this was heaven. Then he saw God looking out a window of a tall building as he was chewing on a bloody piece of meat. That made him feel suddenly scared. He then heard a voice, "don't be scared." And at that moment he felt drips of blood from the piece of meat hit his face. My brother in law tells me that this was a dream to tell him that it was okay to eat raw or barely cooked meat, that it wouldn't hurt him. I told him I thought it was just a dream but obviously, according to you all, I have no idea what I am talking about.

I know you believe you know what you are talking, however I find scripture and prophetic evidence that contradicts your belief.

Last night, I had a dream of finding a large egg on my porch. It cracked open and a beautiful butterfly came out of it, purple and green and orange. Then suddenly, I was swimming off the coast of Ensenada and I dove down under the water and saw several Garibaldi. I swam after one of them but couldn't catch it. When I got closer it started to turn purple. Then I woke up .... which allowed me to remember the dream by thinking about what was stored in my active memory for the past 5 minutes. So, was that a message from God? It must be if Addenex is saying that it is a "huge" way that God communicates with his children. I have no idea what to learn from that dream, I would rather learn from reading the scriptures and feeling the spirit. But I guess, to each her own.

Please don't patronize me. No where did I say your dream was from God, and no where did I say all dreams are from God. I actually provided opposite understanding, and the Church has provided the opposite as well. I will again share with you the quote from the Church and hopefully this time you read it, "One way that God reveals His will to men and women on earth. Not all dreams are revelations, however. Inspired dreams are the fruit of faith." (emphasis added) I have now placed emphasis on a different portion of this quote which I have shared at least three times.

The scriptures and prophets have already professed God works through dreams. If you don't accept this, than that is purely up to.

I am simply providing evidence which contradicts your current belief. God uses the avenue of dreams to communicate to his children. He also provides interpretations when they are from him. Whether or not a dream, you receive is from God, is between you and the Lord and the interpretation he provides. If no interpretation is provided, then it is safe to assume it wasn't from God. If the dream is from God, and we don't seek interpretation, then the fault is ours alone.

Edited March 15, 2013 by Anddenex

[Seminarysnoozer]

The same way Pharaoh new his dream was more than a dream. The same way Joseph and others new their dreams were from God.

Joseph in Egypt said it best when he said, " And Joseph said unto them, Do not interpretations belong to God? tell me them, I pray you." As with our dreams, God is the provider of the interpretations. We receive interpretation through God.

Communication comes through dreams. Interpretations of the dream are received while we are awake.

Irrelevant. The Church doesn't need to provide classes on how this is possible. They happen on the Lord's time table.

Let me again provide you evidence even from the Church's website, "One way that God reveals His will to men and women on earth. Not all dreams are revelations, however. Inspired dreams are the fruit of faith." This is directly from the Church's website, and is very apparent that the Church teaches dreams are an avenue to the Lord uses to teach his children. Since it is in scripture it is also apparent that God feels this is an acceptable way to communicate with his children.

Indeed dreams are visions, and these visions also happen while people are asleep and when they are awake. Pharaoh and Nebuchadnezzar were both asleep and were awoken from their dreams, their visions, which lead to personal interpretations.

I know you believe you know what you are talking, however I find scripture and prophetic evidence that contradicts your belief.

Please don't patronize me. No where did I say your dream was from God, and no where did I say all dreams are from God. I actually provided opposite understanding, and the Church has provided the opposite as well. I will again share with you the quote from the Church and hopefully this time you read it, "One way that God reveals His will to men and women on earth. Not all dreams are revelations, however. Inspired dreams are the fruit of faith." (emphasis added) I have now placed emphasis on a different portion of this quote which I have shared at least three times.

The scriptures and prophets have already professed God works through dreams. If you don't accept this, than that is purely up to.

I am simply providing evidence which contradicts your current belief. God uses the avenue of dreams to communicate to his children. He also provides interpretations when they are from him. Whether or not a dream, you receive is from God, is between you and the Lord and the interpretation he provides. If no interpretation is provided, then it is safe to assume it wasn't from God. If the dream is from God, and we don't seek interpretation, then the fault is ours alone.

Look, all I am trying to do is separate what is "inspired dreams" versus any old dream and the thought that using the word "dream" alone does not attempt to make that distinction. As I said originally, it is unfortunate that the word "dream" is used because it is not that specific.

Even in your discussion, now, you have resorted to using the term "inspired dreams" which is great. This is what I was getting at. I believe in "dreams" that are visions. I am not arguing against having visions or personal revelation that comes through visions. I am simply trying to point out that both faith and inspiration do not come while in a state of unconsciousness. I am not sure why you want to believe that while anyone is unconscious they can express either faith or be inspired. I disagree with that notion. Certainly, they could express their faith and their inspiration after a dream is over and they ponder it while awake. But during sleep, which is an unconscious state by definition this is just impossible. So, either one believes that inspiration is possible outside the methods that are outlined, such as spirit to spirit communication during consciousness, feeling the spirit, pondering and praying, being in touch with the spirit etc. or one believes that we can "feel" the spirit when we are not feeling anything because we are unconscious.

In the same way "light" does not mean the light that comes from a light bulb etc. in a literal sense, one should also look at "dream" the same way. We also don't equate heartburn with burning in the chest. For some reason "dream" is a little harder to separate for people even though in the scriptures it says in the topic guide under "dream" - see vision. Most scripture is in the form of metaphor and symbols. Most of the time it is not meant to be a scientific text to be taken literally as if it is describing some physiology of sleep circuitry in the brain. If I want to communicate with God, taking an Ambien is not on the list of options. Just like I don't try to stare at the sun to receive "light" or eat a lot of spicy food to get a burning in the bosom.

[Traveler]

Look, all I am trying to do is separate what is "inspired dreams" versus any old dream and the thought that using the word "dream" alone does not attempt to make that distinction. As I said originally, it is unfortunate that the word "dream" is used because it is not that specific.

Even in your discussion, now, you have resorted to using the term "inspired dreams" which is great. This is what I was getting at. I believe in "dreams" that are visions. I am not arguing against having visions or personal revelation that comes through visions. I am simply trying to point out that both faith and inspiration do not come while in a state of unconsciousness. I am not sure why you want to believe that while anyone is unconscious they can express either faith or be inspired. I disagree with that notion. Certainly, they could express their faith and their inspiration after a dream is over and they ponder it while awake. But during sleep, which is an unconscious state by definition this is just impossible. So, either one believes that inspiration is possible outside the methods that are outlined, such as spirit to spirit communication during consciousness, feeling the spirit, pondering and praying, being in touch with the spirit etc. or one believes that we can "feel" the spirit when we are not feeling anything because we are unconscious.

....

I am trying to underrstand your reasining - why is it any more impossible for G-d to give inspiration during a state of unconsciousness than it is to bring Lazuras back from a state where the brain has been dead for 2 days?

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

I am trying to underrstand your reasining - why is it any more impossible for G-d to give inspiration during a state of unconsciousness than it is to bring Lazuras back from a state where the brain has been dead for 2 days?

The Traveler

Hmmmm, I am looking back through my posts and I never used the word "impossible".

But, I will say that I have relaxed my view about this after discussing with Addenex and others. Yes, for sure God could deliver messages any way He chooses, even through a piece of toasted bread with the image of Christ on it. But, my discussion wasn't about limiting God it was about where we go to learn about God and communicate with Him. People try to find God in the oddest of places and through the oddest of methods all the time. Some will try to smoke marijuana to find spiritual enlightenment, for example. The point I was trying to make is that the most often used method of communicating with God requires conscious effort. It usually requires prayerful thought, pondering and being in tune to the spirit, like when Daniel interpreted the dream.

Some people chant to put themselves in an altered state to hope to find spiritual enlightenment. And there are some that try to have lucid dreams to communicate with God. If God chooses to communicate with us when we aren't listening (at least consciously) then He can do that but I wouldn't promote the idea. Again, we are talking about what we do, not what is possible for God. I believe God would rather have us learn conscious control over our body rather than use methods of loss of control. Maybe my belief is wrong but that is what I get from the gospel of Christ, the more excellent way. Yes, before Christ came there was the physical law of circumcision and so the focus was on the physical body but now we are to be circumcised of spirit, the more excellent way to allow us to be closer to God.