Will we be held accountable for our political/social beliefs and actions?

[Windseeker]

I've been pondering this for some time as I've reviewed some of the recent emotional threads.

Two ways we have a big impact on society is thru our vote and thru our investments including products we purchase and also thru our choice of entertainment. Sometimes we support these things directly because we believe people should be free to choose but the way this government works is that once these things are legal the government seems to step in and fund it. So when we vote for something we really are directly supporting it. So will we be held accountable for direct or indirect support of sin and oppression?

Direct Support -

As an example, do you think we will be held accountable for knowingly -

• Voting for someone who supports abortion or voting ourselves on measures to fund or expand abortions?

• Voting for a measure or someone who is against traditional marriage?

• Purchasing a product which when produced harms the environment?

• Purchasing a product where some of the money goes to fund human trafficking and exploitation of children?

• Voting for leaders who engage and profit from war and/or excessive social programs that burden our future children with debt and government oppression?

Indirect Support –

• Knowingly supporting sports teams or athletes who lead lives or actively support ideas that are contrary to our values and morals?

• Knowingly supporting politicians who lead lives contrary to our values and morals?

• Knowingly supporting musicians, actors, producers who lead lives or actively support ideas that are contrary to our values and morals?

[Wingnut]

Can you clarify what you mean by "be held accountable for" in this discussion? Of course we're accountable for our actions, but I think maybe what you mean is to ask if we'll be punished for them. Can you please explain a little more? Thanks.

[Anddenex]

Yes, we are held accountable before the Lord in all our decisions: thoughts, words, and deeds whether they are indirect or direct objects of our support.

As LDS we adhere to the 13th Article of Faith, particularly the last part "if there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report, or praiseworthy we seek after these things."

[MarginOfError]

I've been pondering this for some time as I've reviewed some of the recent emotional threads.

Two ways we have a big impact on society is thru our vote and thru our investments including products we purchase and also thru our choice of entertainment. Sometimes we support these things directly because we believe people should be free to choose but the way this government works is that once these things are legal the government seems to step in and fund it. So when we vote for something we really are directly supporting it. So will we be held accountable for direct or indirect support of sin and oppression?

Direct Support -

As an example, do you think we will be held accountable for knowingly -

• Voting for someone who supports abortion or voting ourselves on measures to fund or expand abortions?

No

• Voting for a measure or someone who is against traditional marriage?

No

• Purchasing a product which when produced harms the environment?

No

• Purchasing a product where some of the money goes to fund human trafficking and exploitation of children?

No

• Voting for leaders who engage and profit from war and/or excessive social programs that burden our future children with debt and government oppression?

No

Indirect Support –

• Knowingly supporting sports teams or athletes who lead lives or actively support ideas that are contrary to our values and morals?

No

• Knowingly supporting politicians who lead lives contrary to our values and morals?

No

• Knowingly supporting musicians, actors, producers who lead lives or actively support ideas that are contrary to our values and morals?

First off, "We believe man will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression." (AofF 2). When I vote, I vote for a person that will work toward social and public policy that I support. That person will be held accountable for their lifestyle, choices, and sins--not me.

As far as social policy regarding things like abortion, same sex marriage, and what not, people are free to condemn themselves to hell in whatever fashion they see fit. If they understand that nature of their decisions, they will be held accountable for them. My place isn't to judge them. My place is to reach out and help them change their hearts and minds to make better decisions. I vote for some social policies not because I believe they are morally superior, but because I believe they are the better social policy until we can change hearts and minds.

To date, my worthiness has never been challenged by a priesthood leader based on my political and voting preferences (although there have been plenty of mormons who have openly called my worthiness into question). If I ever have one that does, you can expect that I will appeal that decision through any level of leadership necessary--and I'll gladly report back the results.

[Windseeker]

Can you clarify what you mean by "be held accountable for" in this discussion? Of course we're accountable for our actions, but I think maybe what you mean is to ask if we'll be punished for them. Can you please explain a little more? Thanks.

When I say accountable, I mean to our Heavenly Father.

Will we be judged for our social impact on a society?

[MarginOfError]

When I say accountable, I mean to our Heavenly Father.

Will we be judged for our social impact on a society?

I think we're going to be judged more heavily on the impact we had on the people we interacted with than we will be on our beliefs on abstract social policy.

I don't believe the Lord will say something like, "You voted pro-life. Enter my presence, good and faithful servant."

I can imagine him saying something like, "You tried to teach moral values to people in your community, and were a strong arm of support and a moral to the woman in your neighborhood who struggled with the decision of whether to abort her pregnancy. Enter my presence, good and faithful servant."

[Windseeker]

First off, "We believe man will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression." (AofF 2). When I vote, I vote for a person that will work toward social and public policy that I support. That person will be held accountable for their lifestyle, choices, and sins--not me.

As far as social policy regarding things like abortion, same sex marriage, and what not, people are free to condemn themselves to hell in whatever fashion they see fit. If they understand that nature of their decisions, they will be held accountable for them. My place isn't to judge them. My place is to reach out and help them change their hearts and minds to make better decisions. I vote for some social policies not because I believe they are morally superior, but because I believe they are the better social policy until we can change hearts and minds.

To date, my worthiness has never been challenged by a priesthood leader based on my political and voting preferences (although there have been plenty of mormons who have openly called my worthiness into question). If I ever have one that does, you can expect that I will appeal that decision through any level of leadership necessary--and I'll gladly report back the results.

You kind of miss my question. I don't think we will ever be held accountable by the church for our social impact. I'm talking about when we stand with the savior and we review our life.

I know that we are subject to kings, magistrates etc etc..

But what if we have a choice in the direction society goes?

[MarginOfError]

You kind of miss my question. I don't think we will ever be held accountable by the church for our social impact. I'm talking about when we stand with the savior and we review our life.

I know that we are subject to kings, magistrates etc etc..

But what if we have a choice in the direction society goes?

Because of the nature of governments and large group management, your vote actually has much less impact on society than you may think it does. The impact you can have in your community, on the other hand, is nowhere near as bounded.

[Backroads]

I don't know how much of our social impact will be considered, but yes, I do believe we will be judged on our social impact as far as we could have reasonably forseen consequences. I do not believe that a vote or social choice we make that dominoes into something we truly did not intend or want will be held against us.

We will be judged on our hearts and minds and therefore on many choices we make and that includes the socioal ones. No, I do not believe God has a favorite political party as much as we might all like to think He does. Speaking of us as members of the Church, I believe we all have more or less the same values but may differ, even differ extensively, on how those values ought to be lived or acted upon in society. I'm a libertarian, but I can often see where my more liberal associates are coming from.

So should we approach the judgement bar panicking over where we voted for universal health care or not? No, I do not think that particular vote will matter.

However, we may be judged on how we thought about the other members of society and whether we made that vote according to our moral code that we tried to keep in line with what we knew of the Gospel.

[Dravin]

Because of the nature of governments and large group management, your vote actually has much less impact on society than you may think it does. The impact you can have in your community, on the other hand, is nowhere near as bounded.

But your vote can be seen as giving an indication of your desires and we will be judged according to our desires*. I think you are right in that expecting us to be held accountable for every action someone we vote for makes isn't particularly realistic, we simply don't have that much control over a candidate.

*And I mean your desires, not on what the opposition might like to attribute as your desire. If you vote for X because you desire farfenugan then you will be judged for desiring farfenugan, not for desiring wallywack like some might like to claim.

[MarginOfError]

*And I mean your desires, not on what the opposition might like to attribute as your desire. If you vote for X because you desire farfenugan then you will be judged for desiring farfenugan, not for desiring wallywack like some might like to claim.

This is exactly the thing I think we need to remember in these discussions. I vote pro-choice. It isn't uncommon for people to say, because I vote pro-choice, I want more abortion. And that simply isn't true.

If it were a question that were to come up in judgment, I imagine Christ would ask me why I vote pro-choice. I'm happy to explain that. But I also think he'd ask a pro-life voter why they vote pro-life.

[Vort]

Yes, we will account to our heavenly Father for every action and thought.

[Wingnut]

When I say accountable, I mean to our Heavenly Father.

Will we be judged for our social impact on a society?

I assumed that you mean accountable to our Heavenly Father. My previous question still stands, though: what do you mean by accountability in this context? As Anddenex pointed out, yes we will be held accountable for the things we say/think/do. But what exactly are you asking? Do I think that I will receive demerits in heaven for voting Democrat? No. The Lord looketh on the heart, where man can never see. As Dravin mentioned (quote below), the Lord knows why I vote/shop/support the way I do or don't, and despite what my friends might think of me in those choices, I feel peace about them. I don't feel spiritual conflict or that the Lord disapproves of them.

But your vote can be seen as giving an indication of your desires and we will be judged according to our desires*. I think you are right in that expecting us to be held accountable for every action someone we vote for makes isn't particularly realistic, we simply don't have that much control over a candidate.

*And I mean your desires, not on what the opposition might like to attribute as your desire. If you vote for X because you desire farfenugan then you will be judged for desiring farfenugan, not for desiring wallywack like some might like to claim.

I like this reminder.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

When I read the OP, I imagined an angel sitting and taking careful notes, maybe making hash marks of every action and thought, so that we can be judged for each one. LOL. I don't think it works like that.

I believe Heavenly Father loves us and wants us to succeed. He is not waiting for us to make a mistake so He can judge us. Of course, I think our thoughts and actions, are important but more because they shape the person that we are becoming, not each one unto itself.

I believe that God is concerned about which direction we are moving in, are we moving closer to Him or farther away. If we are moving farther away, then He lovingly asks us to repent. Father Thomas Keating says repents means "change the direction you are looking for happiness". I love that definition. God wants us to repent because He loves us and He knows the natural consequences of sin will make us unhappy (and worse).

So back to the voting...does the Lord care how we vote? I think He does not care som much which way we vote as what is in our heart that makes us do so. MoE says he votes Prochoice. Perhaps his reason for doing so is that he believes in free agency. Is that a sin? I don't think so even though I am firmly pro-life for reasons I don't need to explain because most here agree. I don't think that makes me right and MoE wrong. I think what matters is that we are both trying to make the right choices that will bring us back to God. We may differ sometimes on the best way to do that, but we have the same goal in mind.

To me it comes back to the two great commandments. Remember Jesus said they are love God and love your fellowman....everything else hangs on that. Based on that, I believe that God will judge us by what is in our hearts, are we trying to love our fellowman, and not whether or not we voted Republican or Democrat...ad nauseum.

[annewandering]

As far as votes go. If we are accountable for everything a politician espouses we would not be able to cast a vote at all. None of them hold totally correct views. We chose the ones we think/hope will do the best in the majority of things they accomplish.

IF we were to be accountable for what party we voted for then God would tell us which was right.

[Windseeker]

Mosiah said this about choosing our leaders.

Mosiah 29:29

And if the time comes that the voice of the people doth choose iniquity, then is the time that the judgements of God will come upon you; yea, then is the time he will visit you with great destruction even as he has hitherto visited this land.

Clearly if we choose iniquity then we will answer to the judgements of God. Are these just natural consequences or are they Eternal as well?

[Anddenex]

Clearly if we choose iniquity then we will answer to the judgements of God. Are these just natural consequences or are they Eternal as well?

I would venture to say they are both, natural consequences which for some lead to eternal consequences as well.

Harry Reid, for example, is in a different position than the average voter -- he is directing the affairs of government.

People in positions of government, will hold more accountability before the Lord just as the bishop, stake president, hold more accountability over their wards and stakes.

[MarginOfError]

Mosiah said this about choosing our leaders.

Clearly if we choose iniquity then we will answer to the judgements of God. Are these just natural consequences or are they Eternal as well?

But what, exactly, does it mean to choose iniquity in the voting booth?

Keep in mind that the Church exists in countries throughout the world with all sorts of economic and political structures.

To add a little context, I submit this interesting read

From the mailbag | By Common Consent, a Mormon Blog

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Clearly if we choose iniquity then we will answer to the judgements of God. Are these just natural consequences or are they Eternal as well?

There is a difference between willfully choosing iniquity and disagreeing about politics or even being deceived.

For example, the Priests of Noah supported him because they wanted to be rich, fat (figuratively) and happy along with him...supporting him was a means to do that. They knew it was wrong and they didn't care. Yes, I think that does have eternal consequences if they don't repent as Alma did.

That is different than people choosing to be Republican or Democrat for different reasons. In this discussion we have people with differing points of view about politics, but I don't think any of us are willfully choosing to go against God. So, no I don't think we will have eternal consequences for our choices, but we might experience natural consequences if we choose poorly.

[Windseeker]

For example, the Priests of Noah supported him because they wanted to be rich, fat (figuratively) and happy along with him...supporting him was a means to do that. They knew it was wrong and they didn't care. Yes, I think that does have eternal consequences if they don't repent as Alma did.

I thought they just wanted free cell phones...go figure

Did I just derail my own thread...

You made me LiterateParakeet, you knew I couldn't withstand the temptation.

[Windseeker]

But what, exactly, does it mean to choose iniquity in the voting booth?

What do you think?

[Guest]

This tells me something:

Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets.

WE CALL UPON responsible citizens and officers of government everywhere to promote those measures designed to maintain and strengthen the family as the fundamental unit of society.

I also think of situations where God looked at a wicked society and asked for proof that there were any who still followed Him and who were righteous.

Our hearts and our intentions are most important though, in my opinion. Even if we happen to be "wrong" in what we advocate and vote for, I think that our hearts will be taken into account more than anything, and if we are doing our best to do the right thing and follow Heavenly Father, that's what matters most.

[Vort]

For example, the Priests of Noah supported him because they wanted to be rich, fat (figuratively) and happy along with him...supporting him was a means to do that. They knew it was wrong and they didn't care. Yes, I think that does have eternal consequences if they don't repent as Alma did.

I would add to this by pointing out that, reading between the lines, it seems evident that King Noah was a wildly popular king, perhaps the most popular in the entire Book of Mormon. His people just loved him. His "peccadillos" were winked at even as his economy-destroying munificence was lauded. He was, in short, a very wicked and carnal man who was happy to impose his views of society on the people, and told them anything they wanted to hear to keep them happy so that they kept funding his own version of how things should be. And he took positive steps to shut up anyone who spoke against him or his plans, mostly with the support of those he ruled.

Not that that sounds familiar or anything.

[Anddenex]

"peccadillos"

Sorry Windseeker, purposeful derail...

Ok Vort, the plethora of vocabulary and new words you use...do you search out like 10 new words a day and remember them? What is your secret?

I ask, because this is another cool word that I am thinking "I need to remember this word!" and then...I never remember them.

[Vort]

Sorry Windseeker, purposeful derail...

Ok Vort, the plethora of vocabulary and new words you use...do you search out like 10 new words a day and remember them? What is your secret?

I ask, because this is another cool word that I am thinking "I need to remember this word!" and then...I never remember them.

President Clinton's personal foibles were widely dismissed in the media as mere "peccadillos". My use of the word was meant to recall that use (though, truth be told, I think much of the vendetta against Clinton was in fact politically motivated, so I'm not without sympathy for him).