Military spending

[Traveler]

Hi guys, I'm new here - was just wondering if everyone knew about this:

I'm also curious if anyone knows the truth about what really happened on September 11, 2001 that got us to where we are today and what we are seeing politically, financially and militarily? For those who are unaware, the truth will be highly disturbing. I haven't seen a 9/11 thread yet and so I'm assuming the issue/topic hasn't been discussed, but being new, that may not be the case.

So what? we spend more as a country than those other countries do on soft drinks, on movies and entertainment, we spend more on vacations, and cars and gasoline, more on research, more on space programs, more on cell phones, more on health care and much more on foreign aid. And Americans are also among the most unfit and overweight yet we spend more on prescription drugs and surgery than trying to be healthy knowing it really does not work that way.

Concerning 9/11 I am thankful that terrorists are so overwhelming stupid and incompetent. I have discussed with individuals in the FBI how a single terrorist could destroy billions in property damage and as many as 20 million citizens with items available to over 95% of households in the USA.

One last comment - though we live in an age of information - I believe that too many people are overwhelmed with data and this will also be known as an age of gullibility, foolish choices and utter ignorance - in politics, education, religion, economics, business and even in things that should be extremely simple - like marriage and families.

What amazes me it that regardless of how utterly ridiculous something may be - there are way too many people willing to believe it without any reasonable checking on their own. All that is needed is that someone quote an expert - and suddenly we are informed.

The Traveler

Ps - we also spend more than all the rest of the world combined on comedians pretending to be able to analyze news worthy stories.

Edited April 5, 2013 by Traveler
added Ps.

[talisyn]

I'm too lazy to look it up, but how many of those countries would have to spend more on their military if the USA didn't have bases there?

[Mahone]

I'm too lazy to look it up, but how many of those countries would have to spend more on their military if the USA didn't have bases there?

I can't speak for the other countries, but the USA has a small handful of bases in the UK primarily for it's own operations and interests (logistics and communications etc), not for the benefit of, or to sustain the British military.

Again looking at the UK alone, the USA has 500% the population of the UK and 3900% the land/water mass. This partially explains why the USA has a military expenditure that is 1100% higher than the UK's.

From my personal perspective, I do find it interesting that the UK is part of the top five world military spenders (consisting of the USA, China, Russia, UK and France) and yet out of the top 15 military spenders, we're by far the smallest in terms of land mass.

Edited April 6, 2013 by Mahone

[Blackmarch]

to the OP

wish we could spend more, however we are in debt. everything needs to be cut back, which is gonna be painful. Actually wish we could be many times more financially efficient across the board.

as to the 911 conspiracy i'm sorry but the WTC getting hit with military grade equipment or even demolition gear isn't the case. Ignited jet fuel that was in a large contained volume was enough to do a cascade effect to the point of weakening structure at which point gravity was able to do the rest.

IF you get a big enough fire in a volume the temperature will increase dramatically more than what the components are generally capable of due to the effect that the fire increases the rate at which oxygen is consumed increases because of convection. (i'd suggest looking up firestorms from WWII).

You may also want to look up how ancient people were able to smelt iron and other alloys using only wood and oxygen.

If there was any black dealing going on in the government the most likely candidates would be those who caused the ball to be dropped in tracking and dealing with the terrorists who hijacked the planes.

More of a case of someone in a position to do something but turning their heads to allow the event to happen.

nor would this event be widespread but limited to either small groups or individuals that are in positions that influence that sphere of responsibility.

As for missing $$$ its jumping to conclusions in applying them to the 9/11 event. Someones going to have to find a trail and be able to positively link it first. $$$ goes missing all the time, why didn't that get covered up like all the other cash misused by the government?

As for the pic yes it looks like the building is collapsing from the top rather than from the bottom... by any chance have you tried comparing the WTC video to other buildings demolished by A) professional demo teams and B) demolished by actual military grade weapons?

As for the pentagon investigative division; were they too stupid to have offsite backups? And supposing someone wanted the data there eliminated.. they didn't have access to professional groups (ie cyberspace, espionage, etc...) but thought that running a commercial airliner with foreign individuals with ties to terrorist groups would be more efficient way to eliminate every possible threat contained within said investigative division???

The external evidence does little to suggest a government conspiracy against U.S. interest. The theories here have far too many loose ends and conflicts to really be considered at this time above other information.

With what I've been able to find and see, at best for a governmental conspiracy sort of chain of events to have occurred with 9/11 would be that certain individuals turned a blind eye and/or caused a stoppage of information flow to allow the terrorists to hit their target(s).... unfortunately in that scenario politic- and beuracratic inefficiency can also account for such a chain of events happening. And without more internal solid internal evidence to point to one or the other theres not enough for me to agree that the US government was at fault for 9/11.

There is enough to say that it possibly could have prevented it, but not enough to know whether that was due to design or accident. (and with most organizations most disasters happen because of a combination of a series of flaws, ineptitudes, and mistakes that were not noticed or seemed trivial at the time, which leads me to believe that oversight was not intential).

now I have no doubt that there are individuals in the government with criminal ties, and if such an element did have an influence it most likely would have been near or have some influence at a organizational or informational bottleneck.

[Airwolf84]

AirWolf, I was in the Air Force at the time, and from some of the closed briefings I was involved in, I can assure you that the radical Arabs brought down the towers and not some US government cabal.

That said, the neo-cons definitely took quick advantage of the crisis (like the Democrats have taken hold of our current financial crisis) to vastly increase the military and go places we should not be in.

ramemptom, thanks for your service in the Air Force, however, are you not at all familiar with the laws of phyiscs, specifically the law of conservation of momentum or conventional wisdom that says 110 story buildings CANNOT disintegrate and peel open like bananas in almost perfect symmetry at literally free-fall speed in 10-12 seconds without a little help when fire has never ever brought down a skyscraper before? Furthermore, first responders and firemen reported seeing molten steel under both buildings "flowing like lava"... please explain how and why this would occur when jet fuel is 75% kerosene (does NOT burn very hot) and when most of the fuel was consumed in the fireball in the initial explosions?

Also, clean-up crews were fast and eager to get all of the debris, steel and rubble loaded on to trucks and trains to be shipped to China (some locally to landfills) before forensic examinations could be conducted on the steel? That's a felony in and of itself (tampering with evidence). And are you not aware of the wargames that were coincidentally going on that morning with VP Cheney calling the shots that caused confusion with air traffic controllers and defense personnel so that they didn't know what was part of the exercises or real? This is how the planes reached their targets. Look them up (drills like Tripod II and Vigilant Guardian) were being run where the entire northeast quadrant of the U.S. was left unguarded since they were in Canada, leaving the entire NE U.S. vulnerable to attack for over 90 minutes. This was never even investigated and was at best gross incompetence and at worst treasonous. Coincidence? Not hardly.

And how do you suppose Hani Hanjour, the alleged hihacker of flight 77, managed to commandeer a commercial airliner by first, overpowering 2 martial arts trained pilots with boxcutters, then executing a 270 degree downward spiral when even seasoned pilots have said they cannot do that, then bypassing offices of heads of the Pentagon to smash into a section of the building where budget analysts were investigating $2.3 TRILLION that had gone missing, all when Hanjour had flunked out of flight school and couldn't even fly a Cessna? Sounds to me like you'd better do some independent investigation of your own my friend to learn the ugly truth. I even produced a 2-hour documentary of the truth of that day if you're interested - let me know and I'll be happy to send you a free DVD copy. The truth sets us free.

And to those calling me a conspiracy theorist, tinfoil hat wearer, etc. - are you aware of what President Ezra Taft Benson said about conspiracies in our day and age? He said there are no conspiracy theories... only conspiracy facts and what do you think the 8th chapter in the Book of Ether is warning us about???

Edited April 15, 2013 by Airwolf84

[Airwolf84]

Everyone:

This is NOT a scene of a 'building collapse'... this is a scene of utter destruction and total demolition using advanced military-grade nano-scale weaponry (thermite and super-explosive thermate) - gravity CANNOT produce scenes like this:

[Airwolf84]

http://www.journalof911studies.com/index.html]Home Edited April 15, 2013 by Airwolf84

[Leah]

ramemptom, thanks for your service in the Air Force, however, are you not at all familiar with the laws of phyiscs, specifically the law of conservation of momentum or conventional wisdom that says 110 story buildings CANNOT disintegrate and peel open like bananas in almost perfect symmetry at literally free-fall speed in 10-12 seconds without a little help when fire has never ever brought down a skyscraper before? Furthermore, first responders and firemen reported seeing molten steel under both buildings "flowing like lava"... please explain how and why this would occur when jet fuel is 75% kerosene (does NOT burn very hot) and when most of the fuel was consumed in the fireball in the initial explosions?

Also, clean-up crews were fast and eager to get all of the debris, steel and rubble loaded on to trucks and trains to be shipped to China (some locally to landfills) before forensic examinations could be conducted on the steel? That's a felony in and of itself (tampering with evidence). And are you not aware of the wargames that were coincidentally going on that morning with VP Cheney calling the shots that caused confusion with air traffic controllers and defense personnel so that they didn't know what was part of the exercises or real? This is how the planes reached their targets. Look them up (drills like Tripod II and Vigilant Guardian) were being run where the entire northeast quadrant of the U.S. was left unguarded since they were in Canada, leaving the entire NE U.S. vulnerable to attack for over 90 minutes. This was never even investigated and was at best gross incompetence and at worst treasonous. Coincidence? Not hardly.

And how do you suppose Hani Hanjour, the alleged hihacker of flight 77, managed to commandeer a commercial airliner by first, overpowering 2 martial arts trained pilots with boxcutters, then executing a 270 degree downward spiral when even seasoned pilots have said they cannot do that, then bypassing offices of heads of the Pentagon to smash into a section of the building where budget analysts were investigating $2.3 TRILLION that had gone missing, all when Hanjour had flunked out of flight school and couldn't even fly a Cessna? Sounds to me like you'd better do some independent investigation of your own my friend to learn the ugly truth. I even produced a 2-hour documentary of the truth of that day if you're interested - let me know and I'll be happy to send you a free DVD copy. The truth sets us free.

And to those calling me a conspiracy theorist, tinfoil hat wearer, etc. - are you aware of what President Ezra Taft Benson said about conspiracies in our day and age? He said there are no conspiracy theories... only conspiracy facts and what do you think the 8th chapter in the Book of Ether is warning us about???

This is the first I have heard about the steel was shipped to China. Would you please provide your documentation of that? A search this morning brings the only references to such on conspiracy sites...and, of course, without any citation to their sources.

What is your background in physics? What type of degree do you have in that area?

[NeuroTypical]

This is NOT a scene of a 'building collapse'... this is a scene of utter destruction and total demolition using advanced military-grade nano-scale weaponry (thermite and super-explosive thermate) - gravity CANNOT produce scenes like this:

Yes it is, no it isn't, and yes it can.

Sorry.

[Airwolf84]

Leah:

9-11 Research: WTC Steel Removal

Also, I am not a structural engineer or architect nor am I an expert in physics, however, these guys are:

Dr. Steven E. Jones

World Trade Center Building 7 Demolished on 9/11? | AE911Truth

Edited April 15, 2013 by Airwolf84

[Leah]

Leah:

9-11 Research: WTC Steel Removal

Also, I am not a structural engineer or architect nor am I an expert in physics, however, these guys are:

World Trade Center Building 7 Demolished on 9/11? | AE911Truth

Dr. Steven E. Jones

It is common practice to summarize the content of links, not just post them. Please post your summary/understanding of the content of your links and your rationale for posting them.

As you claim these reports to be true, surely you can easily and clearly explain why they are true, and provide further citations to back that up.

Have you read the reports by experts that refute these reports? Or do you only read those which agree with your preconceived notion that this was a government conspiracy? What other reports/evidence have you looked at?

[Airwolf84]

Yes it is, no it isn't, and yes it can.

Sorry.

Here's a great site to do some homework on:

9-11 Research: An Independent Investigation of the 9-11-2001 Attack

[Guest]

I'll echo what Leah says. Summarize what you understand from the links and you'll get more listeners.

[Airwolf84]

It is common practice to summarize the content of links, not just post them. Please post your summary/understanding of the content of your links and your rationale for posting them.

As you claim these reports to be true, surely you can easily and clearly explain why they are true, and provide further citations to back that up.

Have you read the reports by experts that refute these reports? Or do you only read those which agree with your preconceived notion that this was a government conspiracy? What other reports/evidence have you looked at?

OK, here you go (this is the same information you'd see by simply clicking on the link):

9-11 Research: WTC Steel Removal

Steel was the structural material of the buildings. As such it was the most important evidence to preserve in order to puzzle out how the structures held up to the impacts and fires, but then disintegrated into rubble. Since the collapse of steel-framed skyscrapers due to fires is completely unprecedented, the steel should have been subjected to detailed analysis. So what did the authorities do with this key evidence of the vast crime and unprecedented engineering failure? They recycled it!

Some 185,101 tons of structural steel have been hauled away from Ground Zero. Most of the steel has been recycled as per the city's decision to swiftly send the wreckage to salvage yards in New Jersey. The city's hasty move has outraged many victims' families who believe the steel should have been examined more thoroughly. Last month, fire experts told Congress that about 80% of the steel was scrapped without being examined because investigators did not have the authority to preserve the wreckage. 1

The bulk of the steel was apparently shipped to China and India. The Chinese firm Baosteel purchased 50,000 tons at a rate of $120 per ton, compared to an average price of $160 paid by local mills in the previous year. 2

Mayor Bloomberg, a former engineering major, was not concerned about the destruction of the evidence:

If you want to take a look at the construction methods and the design, that's in this day and age what computers do. Just looking at a piece of metal generally doesn't tell you anything. 3

The pace of the steel's removal was very rapid, even in the first weeks after the attack. By September 29, 130,000 tons of debris -- most of it apparently steel -- had been removed. 4

During the official investigation controlled by FEMA, one hundred fifty pieces of steel were saved for future study. 5 One hundred fifty pieces out of hundreds of thousands of pieces! Moreover it is not clear who made the decision to save these particular pieces. It is clear that the volunteer investigators were doing their work at the Fresh Kills dump, not at Ground Zero, so whatever steel they had access to was first picked over by the people running the cleanup operation.

Given that the people in charge considered the steel garbage, useless to any investigation in this age of computer simulations, they certainly took pains to make sure it didn't end up anywhere other than a smelting furnace. They installed GPS locater devices on each of the trucks that was carrying loads away from Ground Zero, at a cost of $1000 each. The securitysolutions.com website has an article on the tracking system with this passage.

Ninety-nine percent of the drivers were extremely driven to do their jobs. But there were big concerns, because the loads consisted of highly sensitive material. One driver, for example, took an extended lunch break of an hour and a half. There was nothing criminal about that, but he was dismissed. 6

According to FEMA, more than 350,000 tons of steel were extracted from Ground Zero and barged or trucked to salvage yards where it was cut up for recycling. Four salvage yards were contracted to process the steel.

Hugo Nue Schnitzer at Fresh Kills (FK) Landfill, Staten Island, NJ

Hugo Nue Schnitzer's Claremont (CM) Terminal in Jersey City, NJ

Metal Management in Newark (NW), NJ

Blanford and Co. in Keasbey (KB), NJ

FEMA's BPAT, who wrote the WTC Building Performance Study, were not given access to Ground Zero. Apparently, they were not even allowed to collect steel samples from the salvage yards. According to Appendix D of the Study:

Collection and storage of steel members from the WTC site was not part of the BPS Team efforts sponsored by FEMA and the American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE).

The base of one of the Twin Towers' massive core columns stored in a hanger at JFK Airport is shown in the film Up From Zero.

Given that the removal and recycling of World Trade Center seel continued over the objections of victims' families and others seeking a genuine investigation, revelations, years later, that some of Twin Towers' steel parts were preserved comes as something of a surprise. Many of the heaviest steel pieces from the Twin Towers are stored in an 80,000-square-foot hangar at John F. Kennedy International Airport. These include some of the base sections of the Towers' massive core columns and 13 of the 153 steel trees from the bases of the Towers' perimeter walls. 7 Some of these pieces are shown in the film Up From Zero.

The hangar, which reportedly holds one five-hundredth of the "total debris field", is off-limits to the public. 8 Scott Huston, president of the Graystone Society, is attempting to obtain three of the steel trees for the National Iron & Steel Heritage Museum in Coatesville, PA. 9

The discovery of the existence of intact pieces of the Twin Towers' columns would appear to be good news for independent investigators who would like to test samples of steel. However, the locations of these pieces within the towers suggests a reason they were allowed to be preserved. The large core column sections stood on the Towers' foundations, seven stories below street level, and the perimeter column trees were from the lobby level, just above street level. Only these lower sections of the Towers were spared the blasting that shredded the steel frames down to about their fourth stories. This is evident from the facts that 18 people survived in the lower reaches of the North Tower's core, and fragments of the perimeter walls of each Tower remained standing.

Although it was believed that the last structrural steel remains had been removed from the site in May of 2003, in January of 2007, several large steel pieces were recovered in excavations of the site, below a road created during the cleanup operation. The excavation, which was commissioned to discover human remains, had already yielded nearly 300 bones. Two steel remains were described as columns, measuring about 18 feet long and weighing perhaps 60 tons, and three connected steel columns from the perimeter walls. The steel beams had apparently been buried during the cleanup operation, perhaps to stabalize the ground. Also discovered at the opposite side of the WTC site was a column which "appeared to be burned at one end", according to a person "with knowledge of the discovery".

Here's some background into BYU's Dr. Steven Jones (again, by simply clicking on the link):

Dr. Steven E. Jones

Steven E. Jones

Retired Professor

Research Group: Atomic, Molecular, and Optical

Specialty: Muon-catalyzed fusion, metal-catalyzed fusion, archaeometry, solar energy

Email: [email protected]

· Curriculum Vitae. Notable peer-reviewed publications (from over fifty)

· J. Rafelski and S.E. Jones, "Cold Nuclear Fusion," Scientific American, 257: 84-89 (July 1987).

· S.E. Jones, "Muon-Catalysed Fusion Revisited," (Invited article) Nature 321: 127-133 (1986).

•Steven E. Jones, “What accounts for the molten metal observed on 9/11/2001?”, Journal of the Utah Academy of Sciences, Arts and Letters, 83:252, Apr 2006.

•S.E. Jones, et al. "Fourteen Points...", Open Civil Engineering Journal, April 2008.

•K. Ryan, J. Gourley and S.E. Jones, "Environmental Anomalies at the World Trade Center: Evidence for Energetic Materials", Environmentalist, August 2008.

•Niels Harrit, Jeffrey Farrer, Steven Jones, et al. "Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center Catastrophe", THE OPEN CHEMICAL PHYSICS JOURNAL, April 2009.

· S.E. Jones and J.E. Ellsworth, "Cold (metal-enhanced) fusion, geo-fusion, and cold nucleosynthesis", Condensed Matter Nuclear Science, 2005, London: World Scientific, p. 617. · S.E. Jones, E.P. Palmer, J.B. Czirr, D.L. Decker, G.L. Jensen, J.M. Thorne, and S.F. Taylor & J. Rafelski, "Observation of Cold Nuclear Fusion in Condensed Matter," Nature 338: 737-740 (April 1989). Results confirmed:2001: "Enhancement of the electron screening effect for d+ d fusion reactions in metallic environments", Europhysics Letters, 54:449 “...the observed enhancement of the electron screening in metal targets can, in tendency, explain the small neutron production rates observed in the cold-fusion experiment of Jones [reference 1989 Nature paper].” Also, K. Czerski, et al., Eur. Phys. J. A27:S01,83 (2006) “ As shown in [Europhys. Lett. 68:363 (2004)], the screening energy of order 300 eV determined in accelerator experiments can explain the neutron production rate observed by Jones et al. [Nature 338:737, 1989] at room temperature.”

Edited April 15, 2013 by Airwolf84

[Leah]

OK, here you go (this is the same information you'd see by simply clicking on the link):

9-11 Research: WTC Steel Removal

Here's some background into BYU's Dr. Steven Jones (again, by simply clicking on the link):

Dr. Steven E. Jones

I want YOU to explain in YOUR words why you believe these theories to be correct.

I researched the background on Jones. I also researched the fact that his peers debunked his theories.

[Airwolf84]

I want YOU to explain in YOUR words why you believe these theories to be correct.

Theories? Leah, we're talking about scientific evidence, broken laws of physics (if the official fairy tale is to be believed), facts, eyewitness accounts of what was seen and heard from first responders and firemen and authentic documentation outlining and detailing the fact that WTC 1 and 2 were blown to kingdom come via controlled demolition with very sophisticated military grade nano-thermite and thermate - there are no theories here. This stuff cannot be debunked and anyone who says it can is either being intellectually disonest or has reason and motive to preserve the official narrative (personal safety, financial, etc.).

I researched the background on Jones. I also researched the fact that his peers debunked his theories.

Which 'peers' have debunked Jones'? Allow me to provide several of his close associates who back him fully (one is still employed at BYU):

Bentham Science Publishers Ltd. Home Page

[Leah]

Theories? Leah, we're talking about scientific evidence, broken laws of physics (if the official fairy tale is to be believed), facts, eyewitness accounts of what was seen and heard from first responders and firemen and authentic documentation outlining and detailing the fact that WTC 1 and 2 were blown to kingdom come via controlled demolition with very sophisticated military grade nano-thermite and thermate - there are no theories here. This stuff cannot be debunked and anyone who says it can is either being intellectually disonest or has reason and motive to preserve the official narrative (personal safety, financial, etc.).

Which 'peers' have debunked Jones'? Allow me to provide several of his close associates who back him fully (one is still employed at BYU):

Bentham Science Publishers Ltd. Home Page

Eyewitness accounts by first responders and firemen? So they saw the explosives being put in place? They saw someone trigger the devices?

Do tell.

[Leah]

Theories? Leah, we're talking about scientific evidence, broken laws of physics (if the official fairy tale is to be believed), facts, eyewitness accounts of what was seen and heard from first responders and firemen and authentic documentation outlining and detailing the fact that WTC 1 and 2 were blown to kingdom come via controlled demolition with very sophisticated military grade nano-thermite and thermate - there are no theories here. This stuff cannot be debunked and anyone who says it can is either being intellectually disonest or has reason and motive to preserve the official narrative (personal safety, financial, etc.).

Which 'peers' have debunked Jones'? Allow me to provide several of his close associates who back him fully (one is still employed at BYU):

Bentham Science Publishers Ltd. Home Page

I get it now.

You CAN'T summarize because you don't actually understand physics, etc.

[bytebear]

I watched the towers crumble live on tv. I remember every second of the event(s) vividly and will simply never forget every exacting detail of their collapse. They did not explode as you describe. They simply collapsed into themselves to top floors falling through the building. The photo you provide is entirely misleading as to watching the event happen in real time.

[RipplecutBuddha]

I'm sorry, but this whole thread is just wasteful.

I was going to chime in on how horribly porous the Federal Government is when it comes to secret plans, and even cite the Fast and Furious gun selling scandal. I was then going to speak on how bad the Federal Government is when it comes to ignoring innocent civilian deaths and even cite the Benghazi attacks that are currently being swept under the rug.

What the heck, why not....it's a free thread.....

Look, the sheer size of what would have been necessary to pull off a 9/11 conspiracy type plan is mind-boggling. And realize that it's been *twelve years* and not one person has come forward to give reliable first-person eyewitness accounts of explosives being placed in the towers. Not one person who might have seen something weird happening in their offices, not one person directly involved that now has a strong need to tell what he/she saw and did has come forward.

The Fast and the Furious gun scandal became news specifically because a man involved saw what was going on, saw that it was wrong, and at risk of his job, and his family, came forward and said something about it. The Benghazi attacks are news because a US embassy was overrun, and the ambassador was killed and over here it's barely news, and nobody in the current administration seems interested in discussing it at all.

If you want to discuss how the Federal Goverment is putting the nation at risk, there are these two exampes to put on top of the pile of dozens of other matters. I don't think the Federal Government is doing a very good job at a lot of things, and I think they're responsible for quite a few problems here at home.

However, I do not believe the Federal Government is responsible for 9/11 in any of the ways it has been characterized to be. All of this conspiracy searching is missing the forest for the trees we want to see.

Edited April 20, 2013 by RipplecutBuddha