Christ wasn't perfect?

[Upcountry]

I will need some time to chew on that.

Back when I skim Gospel Principles manual

[Upcountry]

"Exalted" means "living as God lives". It is not even well-established that the celestial kingdom consists of various levels, as is so commonly assumed. (In my opinion, that idea does not even make sense.)

Then what is the difference between saved and exalted?

Surely, that must be established. Must I go to Google to find:

"

The Plan for Our Progression Gospel Principles: Ch 47

When we lived with our Heavenly Father, He explained a plan for our progression. We could become like Him, an exalted being. The plan required that we be separated from Him and come to earth. This separation was necessary to prove whether we would obey our Father’s commandments even though we were no longer in His presence. The plan provided that when earth life ended, we would be judged and rewarded according to the degree of our faith and obedience.

From the scriptures we learn that there are three kingdoms of glory in heaven. The Apostle Paul mentioned that he knew a man who was “caught up to the third heaven” (2 Corinthians 12:2). Paul named two of the kingdoms in heaven: the celestial and the terrestrial (see 1 Corinthians 15:40–42). The celestial is the highest, and the terrestrial is second. Through latter-day revelation we learn that the third kingdom is the telestial kingdom (see D&C 76:81). We also learn that there are three heavens or degrees within the celestial kingdom (see D&C 131:1)."

While I don't know the difference between CK #1 and #2, surely the Father lives in #3 with his family.

Thanks anyway

Upcountry

[bytor2112]

Then what is the difference between saved and exalted?

What is salvation? It is both immortality and eternal life. It is an inheritance in the highest heaven of the celestial world. It consists of the fullness of the glory of the Father and is reserved for those for whom the family unity continues in eternity. Those who are saved become as God is and live as he lives. -Elder Bruce R McConkie

To people of other faiths..to be saved means...to be saved from death, hell the devil and endlesss torment. As Latter Day Saints we don't typically use the term "saved" because we understand that all mankind will be resurrected because of Christ's Atonement and will be saved from the awful descriptions previously described.

[Upcountry]

But what did Christ mean in mark 16:16? He was talking to all humanity. Saved is to "believe and be baptized."

Exultation seems much more and seem to requires a Celestial Marriage to have spirit children.

If Elder McConkie said that which is above who am I to argue. But I must ask for clarity.

Are those in the lesser parts of the Celestial Kingdom not saved?

It seems Elder is saying that for other faiths, to be saved is to be resurrected. But we are all to be resurrected. That is one of the things the Atonement does. What did Christ mean when He said saved? He knew His words would be widely quoted.

Don't non LDS families have a hope for the Celestial Kingdom, with sealing and Exultation?

What do we call those who are baptized but are not and will not become married? Are they not saved?

Perhaps this is too difficult to answer. It seems a clear question.

[Vort]

Then what is the difference between saved and exalted?

D&C 132:17

For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.

The Plan for Our Progression Gospel Principles: Ch 47

Yes, I'm familiar with the common teachings, and I grant they may be perfectly correct, or even imperfectly correct. But they are not the scriptures.

The scriptures teach that "In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees". This teaching, found in Section 131, was greatly expanded upon in Section 76 (or at least, it can be so interpreted). There, we learn that these three "heavens" or "degrees" are named celestial, terrestrial, and telestial, and that only in the celestial (highest) can a man (or, we assume, a woman) have an increase. They may enter into the other, but that is the end of their kingdom.

[Smeagums]

I have heard this before too. The argument comes down to that Christ was sinless but not perfect. Hmmmmm

I agree that He wasn't perfect because He grew from "grace to grace".

Being sinless and perfect are two different things IMO.

[bytor2112]

But what did Christ mean in mark 16:16? He was talking to all humanity. Saved is to "believe and be baptized."

Exultation seems much more and seem to requires a Celestial Marriage to have spirit children.

If Elder McConkie said that which is above who am I to argue. But I must ask for clarity.

Are those in the lesser parts of the Celestial Kingdom not saved?

It seems Elder is saying that for other faiths, to be saved is to be resurrected. But we are all to be resurrected. That is one of the things the Atonement does. What did Christ mean when He said saved? He knew His words would be widely quoted.

Don't non LDS families have a hope for the Celestial Kingdom, with sealing and Exultation?

What do we call those who are baptized but are not and will not become married? Are they not saved?

Perhaps this is too difficult to answer. It seems a clear question.

Upcountry....the Plan of Salvation is for ALL of Heavenly Fathers children and ALL will have the opportunity, whether in this life or in the spirit world. Remember that ALL of us chose to follow Christ and Heavenly Fathers plan of salvation in the pre-existence. HE wants us ALL to return to HIS presence....anything less would not be considered salvation to most Latter Day Saints. In the broader sense, Christ's atonement has provided for salvation from physical death to all whether they accept the Gospel in it's fullness or not.

The Glory that we are resurrected to will determine where or more appropriately how we will spend Eternity. Unless, one is judged a son of perdition, ALL will receive according to their works so to speak an inheritance in the Father's kingdoms of Glory.....Exaltation being reserved for the most valiant among HIS children. Those who forsake the world and become like the Savior and are sanctified by His Spirit and make and keep Sacred covenants will inherit ALL the Father hath and dwell with HIM in Eternal glory.

[RipplecutBuddha]

Applepansy, there is something you keep passing over. Here's what I said earlier;

Jesus was mortal. Mortals, by definition are not perfect. Mortals are subject to death. Death is an obstacle to perfection because the spirit and body are separated.

You said yourself that Jesus was perfected through the Atonement. If that is true, then he could not have been perfect before the process began. If Jesus had been perfect before the atonement began, he would have been incapable of dying. That would have rendered the promise of a resurrection null and void.

Let me re-state, Jesus was the only person to live a sinless life. You and I agree on this. On this point you and I agree, however this is the only aspect of Jesus' life that was perfect before his sacrifice was completed.

He was subject to both death and the temptation of sin. It was required that he be vulnerable to both in order to qualify himself as the willing sacrifice.

I can't think of any other way to express the truth that Jesus was not perfect during his mortal ministry. He was fully innocent of sin, perfectly obedient to the will of the Father, but he was mortal (not perfect) and he was subject to temptation (not perfect).

[selek]

Joining this thread late (and really not interested in reading nine pages of semantic haggling), but has anyone pointed out that "perfect" accounting both for the translation and the original vernacular also meant "whole" and "complete"?

During his mortal ministry (having shed both his eternal perspective and much of his power and authority) Christ was "incomplete" pending the fulfillment of his mortal mission.

[applepansy]

Applepansy, there is something you keep passing over. Here's what I said earlier;

You said yourself that Jesus was perfected through the Atonement. If that is true, then he could not have been perfect before the process began. If Jesus had been perfect before the atonement began, he would have been incapable of dying. That would have rendered the promise of a resurrection null and void.

Let me re-state, Jesus was the only person to live a sinless life. You and I agree on this. On this point you and I agree, however this is the only aspect of Jesus' life that was perfect before his sacrifice was completed.

He was subject to both death and the temptation of sin. It was required that he be vulnerable to both in order to qualify himself as the willing sacrifice.

I can't think of any other way to express the truth that Jesus was not perfect during his mortal ministry. He was fully innocent of sin, perfectly obedient to the will of the Father, but he was mortal (not perfect) and he was subject to temptation (not perfect).

You're missing my point. However, your posts have given me some talking points for FHE. :)

[Guest DeusCaritasEst]

Notice that Jesus never once claimed any measure of glory or perfection of himself until after his resurrection. During his ministry he consistently deferred his authority to that of his Father. He told the Jews "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

John 17:5: Now, Father, glorify me with that glory I had with you before ever the world existed.

[RipplecutBuddha]

John 17:5: Now, Father, glorify me with that glory I had with you before ever the world existed.

Thank you for pointing this out. Yes Jesus had glory with the Father before his mortal ministry. However at this point, he is requesting that it be returned to him. This means that Jesus' condescention into mortality cost him something. Something powerful and wonderous. Why else would he be asking to have it returned to him?

Further, could Jesus be seen as legitimately perfect without posessing the glory he had prior to his mortal birth?

To put a more fine point on this, even if Jesus had posessed the glory of his pre-mortal existence, would he have been perfect? If he were still born into mortality, the answer must still be 'no'. Mortality is the physical realization of imperfection.

Nothing in this world lasts forever. According to the understanding of science, the laws of entropy, or decay and death as seen on this earth, also apply to the universe at large. Stars are born and die. Galaxies form, age, then wither away. More recently it has even been determined that black holes evaporate slowly.

The entire point of Jesus' ministry was to willingly condescend, or lower himself, to the same rules and trials we all face. In order for that desire to be realized he had to be rendered imperfect physically, and spiritually, just as we all are. He had to be subjected to the same mortal pains and sorrows, the same spiritual trials and temptations. He had to pass the test we all face so that we could have the opportunity to join with him in his inheritance from the Father. It is only through his Atonement that he was able to become what he is today. It is only through the Atonement and his grace that we are able to enjoy the blessings he is offering us, including the chance to return, clean and perfected through his blood, to the presence of the Father for eternity.

[Upcountry]

The definition of words like “glory” and “perfect” depends on the speaker, the event, the time, and the purpose of the moment. The words have no precise definition, so they cannot be discussed with real meaning. Therefore, I would like to return to First Principles.

Christian (and especially LDS) doctrine teaches that we are Children of God – “Heirs of God and joint -heirs with Christ” (Romans 8:17-18). LDS are taught that Jesus is our brother and we lived with Him and all of our fellow spirits (including Lucifer) in the pre-existent world with our Father. He had created us and watched us mature into self aware spirit beings. The Father knew us well and loved us all.

Father had a physical body: we were spirits only. We were acquainted with, and as His children, we were a part of the Glory of our Father. That is the best I can do to define “Glory”.

Jesus was qualitatively the same type of being as we all were. But, (LDS doctrine teaches) as a spirit, He was quantitatively different from us in at least three ways:

1) He was the first born Spirit (there seems an advantage in being the Firstborn).

2) He created our world using the power of His Father. (I conjecture that as a spirit he could not affect the physical world without His Father’s power.) I have read that Michael assisted Him. From this, I conjecture that we all assisted Him. (It would be exquisite irony if those same spirits that designed and placed the dinosaur bones in the earth when it was formed became archeologists and later atheists because of their perceived beauty of The Theory of Evolution.)

3) He was expected to become “The Only Begotten” in the Plan of Salvation. This appointment seems not certain since Lucifer offered himself in the Grand Council. (PGP Moses 4: 1-4.)

The Plan of Salvation always assumed that we would fall after we came to earth with the stated purpose to get a body. That was at least one reason for the office of The Only Begotten. We spirits had to be born into our own physical bodies so that we also could affect the physical world and become complete (spiritual and physical) beings – true heirs of the Father.

When we fell by Adam’s choice, the ground was cursed for our sake (Genesis 4:17). [This was a Sophie’s Choice: PGP Moses 4:17-18, note the difference with Genesis 4:12, Abraham 5:18. Neither choice was a good one.] That curse changed the earth from a Paradise of peaceful animals of flesh and bones (immortal) to carnivores of flesh and blood (mortal). The blood was now required to transport energy to our cells from eaten flesh of other beings. The earth and all of its inhabitants and their progeny were subject to this curse. The change of the earth and all its creatures because of the curse is incidental – they are only matter and creatures.

But the curse on us (done, in part, to protect us) matters greatly. We are to be the Heirs of God. We were made our own agents in the physical world (PGP Moses 6:56) and thus were responsible for our own actions. Removal of the curse required that the connection between it and the Children of God be broken. God cannot say (or will not say) “I hereby revoke the curse”.

The physical rite of Baptism correctly done with authority from heaven removes the connection of the curse to all those born of woman (Jesus included – Satan and his followers are not eligible since they were never born). You must be born “again” {King James} and “from above” {Catholic Bible} and “of water” (John 3:3-5). If we believe, (I take this to mean we choose to do it) we can be baptized for ourselves (Mark 16:16). Passed spirits require baptism by proxy and they must accept it – but, in all cases, it must be done correctly to have effect.

That leaves Adam as the only connection to the curse. The genealogy of Adam is given in Luke as God. (Luke 3: 38). But Adam and his descendents were cursed. However, Jesus is different from Adam and all the rest of humanity in one more way: He is the Only Begotten. Because of the virgin birth doctrine, Jesus’ Father is The Father. Jesus is not subject to the curse through Adam’s line. Being baptized, Jesus is not subject to the curse through Eve

All this brings us to the definition of “Perfect”. Perfect means acceptable in the eyes of God. Acceptable animal sacrifices were supposed to be “without blemish”. But how would the peasant know whether the lamb offered had a hidden cancer? The supplicant would only know is that he thought it was without blemish and that it was the best he could do. I am fairly certain that this made it acceptable to God. But removal of the major curse on all of the Sons of Adam required divine action to make it acceptable.

That is the best I can do to define “perfect”. I am a physicist who attends his ward but has not been to the temple. I claim neither special spiritual authority nor special scriptural knowledge and submit this for your kind comments. It seems to me to be a beautiful hypothesis. I do stand in amazement at the subtle writings of Joseph in the Pearl of Great Price.

to be continued below.

Edited May 27, 2013 by Upcountry
Added reference to Mark 16:16 Genesus 4:17: Continuation

[applepansy]

Thank you for pointing this out. Yes Jesus had glory with the Father before his mortal ministry. However at this point, he is requesting that it be returned to him. This means that Jesus' condescention into mortality cost him something. Something powerful and wonderous. Why else would he be asking to have it returned to him?

Further, could Jesus be seen as legitimately perfect without posessing the glory he had prior to his mortal birth?

To put a more fine point on this, even if Jesus had posessed the glory of his pre-mortal existence, would he have been perfect? If he were still born into mortality, the answer must still be 'no'. Mortality is the physical realization of imperfection.

Nothing in this world lasts forever. According to the understanding of science, the laws of entropy, or decay and death as seen on this earth, also apply to the universe at large. Stars are born and die. Galaxies form, age, then wither away. More recently it has even been determined that black holes evaporate slowly.

The entire point of Jesus' ministry was to willingly condescend, or lower himself, to the same rules and trials we all face. In order for that desire to be realized he had to be rendered imperfect physically, and spiritually, just as we all are. He had to be subjected to the same mortal pains and sorrows, the same spiritual trials and temptations. He had to pass the test we all face so that we could have the opportunity to join with him in his inheritance from the Father. It is only through his Atonement that he was able to become what he is today. It is only through the Atonement and his grace that we are able to enjoy the blessings he is offering us, including the chance to return, clean and perfected through his blood, to the presence of the Father for eternity.

I can't agree with the bolded. By choosing to take on mortal body and offer Himself as the sacrifice for justice just makes Him a more perfect mortal and pass mortal tests as a perfect mortal. Because He has an immortal father and an mortal mother He was in a unique position. Only He had the power to be perfect in this life and only He had the power to lay down his life. No one took His mortal life from him. Being perfect didn't leave him when he condescended to take on a mortal body.

Nothing last forever? What is eternity all about then? Science as we know it in this life does not apply to the eternities or to perfection.

Edited May 25, 2013 by applepansy

[Upcountry]

Our knowledge of the laws of physics is constantly advancing and changing. It is dangerous to pin any argument on science as known today. 120 years ago, we thought we knew all the laws of physics and just had to refine the accuracy of the numbers. Then we discovered radioactivity and quantum theory. 20 years ago, we thought we knew about all the observable matter in the universe. Then we discovered dark matter and energy and realized that our type of matter is only 5% of the matter that is actually there.

We used to think that the world was deterministic, solid, and continuous. Now we think the world is probabilistic, fuzzy, and discrete. We did not know about galaxies without apparent end. We is just realizing how little we know. But I have confidence that we will eventually discover the truth. There may even be a part explaining how God is an intelligent being and our Father.

Aftre all, we are the Children of God. Who knows what awaits us?

Edited May 26, 2013 by Upcountry
additional thoughts

[Upcountry]

Continuation from above.

When Jesus had become without blemish (by Baptism, by His office as Only Begotten, and by an earthly life worthy of His office, there remained The Sacrifice that we call The Atonement.

Eve had broken the Law using her agency to act freely for herself. Adam had ratified Eve's action with His Priesthood (perhaps a love story) by breaking the lesser of the two Laws he knew. Note that Adam did not ask God's advice for this choice: Adam made his choice on his own.

Jesus had to atone for a Law broken by a Child of God using the agency given to her. Unlike the innocent lamb who is unaware of what is to come, Jesus had to know what to expect during His sacrifice and he had to make it of His own free will.

Scriptures are very explicit that Jesus used His free will to satisfy the requirement of The Father (thy will - not mine be done). Scriptures also say that Jesus could have ended the sacrifice at any time. Pilate did not want to crucify Him and would have taken any excuse to let Him go. Jesus willingly submitted Himself to the requirements of the Law as a Lamb to the slaughter - innocent but He was aware of what He was doing. Only this free will offering by one without blemish could atone for Eve's free will action (of course eating the fruit may be an allegory for something far deeper). It may be significant that Jesus was crucified under the civil (Rome) and religious (High Priesthood) authority of the world of Abraham - the covenant people.

Added:

Together they represented the World.

And so, Jesus was born without blemish from Adam. His baptism removed the blemish from Eve and He became perfect – suitable for the sacrifice to atone for the Eve’s choice to violate The Law on earth.

The Only Begotten had a second task beyond His sacrificial role: He had to establish a Church for John’s Baptism. All that were ever born are subject to Eve’s blemish. The living can remove it if they believe and are baptized. The Dead cannot. This Church had to exist in the latter days to provide the infrastructure and Authority for John’s Baptism for those who died without the Gospel. The Sacrament had to be done on earth since that is where the infraction occurred. The Church had to endure to the end.

This is one explanation why John’s Baptism, Christ’s Atonement, a Latter Day Church, a Sabbath, a Sacrament, and all of the attendant rituals for a cohesive social society is required for salvation.

Edited May 27, 2013 by Upcountry
Added three paragraphs

[socratease08]

Nice try, Upcountry.

But if Christ's sacrifice eliminated or satisfied the Curse, why aren't we all back in Paradise in the Garden of Eden?

[Guest Danar2amir]

Yesterday in RS one of the sister said many didn't know but Christ wasn't perfect.

[applepansy]

Applepansy, there is something you keep passing over. Here's what I said earlier;

You said yourself that Jesus was perfected through the Atonement. If that is true, then he could not have been perfect before the process began. If Jesus had been perfect before the atonement began, he would have been incapable of dying. That would have rendered the promise of a resurrection null and void.

Let me re-state, Jesus was the only person to live a sinless life. You and I agree on this. On this point you and I agree, however this is the only aspect of Jesus' life that was perfect before his sacrifice was completed.

He was subject to both death and the temptation of sin. It was required that he be vulnerable to both in order to qualify himself as the willing sacrifice.

I can't think of any other way to express the truth that Jesus was not perfect during his mortal ministry. He was fully innocent of sin, perfectly obedient to the will of the Father, but he was mortal (not perfect) and he was subject to temptation (not perfect).

And that is where we disagree too. Being perfected is different from being perfect. If Christ wasn't perfect then the Atonement wouldn't work.

You're expressing not a truth but an opinion. Just because someone is subject to temptation doesn't make them imperfect. Condescending to come to earth and take on a mortal body didn't make Christ imperfect. That is my truth.

Ripple, on this subject we're going to have to agree to disagree. :)

Edited May 28, 2013 by applepansy

[Upcountry]

Upcountry....the Plan of Salvation is for ALL of Heavenly Fathers children and ALL will have the opportunity, whether in this life or in the spirit world. Remember that ALL of us chose to follow Christ and Heavenly Fathers plan of salvation in the pre-existence. HE wants us ALL to return to HIS presence....anything less would not be considered salvation to most Latter Day Saints. In the broader sense, Christ's atonement has provided for salvation from physical death to all whether they accept the Gospel in it's fullness or not.

The Glory that we are resurrected to will determine where or more appropriately how we will spend Eternity. Unless, one is judged a son of perdition, ALL will receive according to their works so to speak an inheritance in the Father's kingdoms of Glory.....Exaltation being reserved for the most valiant among HIS children. Those who forsake the world and become like the Savior and are sanctified by His Spirit and make and keep Sacred covenants will inherit ALL the Father hath and dwell with HIM in Eternal glory.

The definition of salvation has to be the same for LDS and everyone else. I understand you are saying that an LDS would not be satisfied with mere salvation if it were not a return to The Father.

I would say that Christ's atonement has provided for redemption from physical death. Lucifer offered another path to redemption (PGP Moses 4:1) Salvation would be reserved for those who were baptized (Mark 16:16) and thus can both see and enter the Kingdom of God (John 3) which is the Celestial Kingdom (added in edit with its three levels of which the third level is Exultation requiring marriage with the possibility of spirit children).

Edited May 29, 2013 by Upcountry
add Exultation

[Upcountry]

Nice try, Upcountry.

But if Christ's sacrifice eliminated or satisfied the Curse, why aren't we all back in Paradise in the Garden of Eden?

Thank you.

Jesus was without blemish because He had a divine Father, had been baptized and lived a life without blemish (I did not say "perfect because that is poorly defined). His sacrifice would have satisfied the Law (if it were accepted and we assume that it has been). Now we are subject to God's mercy. Previously, the offense against the Priesthood by Adam had required the sacrifice (Atonement) to satisfy the Law.

There were three curses: on the serpent, (Moses 4:20-21); on Eve which allowed conception in sorrow, (Moses 4:22); and Adam, (Moses 23-25). The curse on Adam contained the curse on the ground which changed the earth and all the animals including Adam and Eve (and the rest of us) from Paradise to its current state.

All of the curses are eternal which means that Satan may always be our enemy unless we are somewhere Satan cannot go. Eves' curse will end when childbearing ends. The curse on Adam and the ground will end with the final judgement when the earth will return to its former state of Paradise. This is my tentative understanding.

The earth is not Paradise now because all this has not yet happened.

[Letrell]

I refer a lot to the Church website, knowing it is overseen by the Prophet. Rather than dispute this and that, I just went in and searched "was Christ perfect". I already knew He was. Don't care what anyone says. Reading the comment that He was not put that ugly feeling inside. So I immediately went searching....It's not correct. Here is a total copy and paste of the link:

****************************************************************************

PERFECT

Complete, whole, and fully developed; totally righteous. Perfect can also mean without sin or evil. Only Christ was totally perfect. True followers of Christ may become perfect through his grace and atonement.

Let your heart be perfect with the Lord:1 Kgs. 8:61;

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father in heaven:Matt. 5:48; ( 3 Ne. 12:48; )

If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man:James 3:2;

Faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things:Alma 32:21, 26;

The Atonement was made so that God might be a perfect God:Alma 42:15;

Moroni was a man of perfect understanding:Alma 48:11–13, 17–18;

The Spirit of Christ is given to every man to judge and know with a perfect knowledge whether something is of God or the devil:Moro. 7:15–17;

Come unto Christ, and be perfected in him:Moro. 10:32;

Continue in patience until ye are perfected: D&C 67:13;

These are they who are just men made perfect through Jesus: D&C 76:69;

The offices in the Church are for the perfecting of the Saints: D&C 124:143; ( Eph. 4:11–13; )

The living are not perfect without their dead: D&C 128:15, 18;

Noah was a just man, and perfect in his generation:Moses 8:27;

Perfect

*******************************************************************************

[applepansy]

I refer a lot to the Church website, knowing it is overseen by the Prophet. Rather than dispute this and that, I just went in and searched "was Christ perfect". I already knew He was. Don't care what anyone says. Reading the comment that He was not put that ugly feeling inside. So I immediately went searching....It's not correct. Here is a total copy and paste of the link:

****************************************************************************

PERFECT

Complete, whole, and fully developed; totally righteous. Perfect can also mean without sin or evil. Only Christ was totally perfect. True followers of Christ may become perfect through his grace and atonement.

Let your heart be perfect with the Lord:1 Kgs. 8:61;

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father in heaven:Matt. 5:48; ( 3 Ne. 12:48; )

If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man:James 3:2;

Faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things:Alma 32:21, 26;

The Atonement was made so that God might be a perfect God:Alma 42:15;

Moroni was a man of perfect understanding:Alma 48:11–13, 17–18;

The Spirit of Christ is given to every man to judge and know with a perfect knowledge whether something is of God or the devil:Moro. 7:15–17;

Come unto Christ, and be perfected in him:Moro. 10:32;

Continue in patience until ye are perfected: D&C 67:13;

These are they who are just men made perfect through Jesus: D&C 76:69;

The offices in the Church are for the perfecting of the Saints: D&C 124:143; ( Eph. 4:11–13; )

The living are not perfect without their dead: D&C 128:15, 18;

Noah was a just man, and perfect in his generation:Moses 8:27;

Perfect

*******************************************************************************

Thank you. I was wondering if anyone reading this thread would search what the Church has to say on the subject. :)

[pam]

Thread has run its course. Now closed.