Pre-fallen State Of Man

[a-train]

Anyone have any good resources to find various Christian discussion or writings that deal with the pre-fallen state of Adam (mankind)? I want to know what various Christians/Theologians think/thought. While I'm sure opinions will differ, I am wondering what ideas are out there.

I know what the LDS believe, but I am having trouble finding anything that will tell me what the various theologians over the centuries have discussed, or what is currently believed throughout Christianity (aside from friends from various denominations who mostly have little answers; most of which have never considered the topic nor heard it in Sunday School). I want to know thoughts on this:

What are the main differences between man's state before and after the fall?

How long was man to stay 'unfallen'?

If there had not been a fall, what would life be like today (who would be here, trillions of immortal children of Adam and Eve)?

What was the fall?

What caused the fall?

Etc.

Anyone know what's out there? Was this discussed at any of the early councils?

Thanks.

-a-train

[Rosewood]

Well, I know what our doctrine is, but I'm not sure you want our doctrine. What I understand of other Christian beliefs, they mostly don't believe we had a pre-existance. So they believe we would've been better off without the fall. Of course they feel Adam and Eve weren't very smart.

When you ask about "early councils", that's only LDS. If you don't want LDS thats not an issue. Are you interested in anything like Hindu, etc? or only Christian.

[a-train]

I mean the early Christian Councils like the Nicean and etc. I am asking about the opinion of the Christian Fathers or any Christian Theologians through the ages. I am NOT asking about ideas on the spiritual pre-mortal existance of man. I AM asking about the state of Adam and Even after the Creation but before the Fall.

For instance how would they answer this:

"Did God intend for mankind to live forever on earth without the fall (in the Garden, etc.)?"

Anyone, especially our NON-LDS regulars here, know about NON-LDS Christian views on this topic? Any sites or books or forums? I'm asking around and searching, but coming up with a whollatta notta on this enchilada.

-a-train

[Traveler]

I mean the early Christian Councils like the Nicean and etc. I am asking about the opinion of the Christian Fathers or any Christian Theologians through the ages. I am NOT asking about ideas on the spiritual pre-mortal existance of man. I AM asking about the state of Adam and Even after the Creation but before the Fall.

For instance how would they answer this:

"Did God intend for mankind to live forever on earth without the fall (in the Garden, etc.)?"

Anyone, especially our NON-LDS regulars here, know about NON-LDS Christian views on this topic? Any sites or books or forums? I'm asking around and searching, but coming up with a whollatta notta on this enchilada.

-a-train

Beyond the doctrine of the Trinity most Christians (I would guess 98%) have no clue what doctrines came out of the Council of Nice. Most Christians also do not understand the conflict that existed with Galileo or how the documentation of that problem has changed over the years.

The Traveler

[Princess3dward]

For instance how would they answer this:

"Did God intend for mankind to live forever on earth without the fall (in the Garden, etc.)?"

No... because that would imply that he made a mistake.

He sees everything, including the past, present and the future as if it was right in front of him.

[Rosewood]

<div class='quotemain'>

For instance how would they answer this:

"Did God intend for mankind to live forever on earth without the fall (in the Garden, etc.)?"

No... because that would imply that he made a mistake.

He sees everything, including the past, present and the future as if it was right in front of him.

So if the fall was a bad thing why did He give us agency?

[Princess3dward]

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

For instance how would they answer this:

"Did God intend for mankind to live forever on earth without the fall (in the Garden, etc.)?"

No... because that would imply that he made a mistake.

He sees everything, including the past, present and the future as if it was right in front of him.

So if the fall was a bad thing why did He give us agency?

That is why the fall wasn't a bad thing.

He makes no mistakes, therefore, no "bad things".

[Traveler]

Anyone have any good resources to find various Christian discussion or writings that deal with the pre-fallen state of Adam (mankind)? I want to know what various Christians/Theologians think/thought. While I'm sure opinions will differ, I am wondering what ideas are out there.

I know what the LDS believe, but I am having trouble finding anything that will tell me what the various theologians over the centuries have discussed, or what is currently believed throughout Christianity (aside from friends from various denominations who mostly have little answers; most of which have never considered the topic nor heard it in Sunday School). I want to know thoughts on this:

What are the main differences between man's state before and after the fall?

How long was man to stay 'unfallen'?

If there had not been a fall, what would life be like today (who would be here, trillions of immortal children of Adam and Eve)?

What was the fall?

What caused the fall?

Etc.

Anyone know what's out there? Was this discussed at any of the early councils?

Thanks.

-a-train

I thought I would add a couple of things to this discussion. The first thought concerns a little known doctrine of Jesus in the sermon of the Mt. In Matt chapter 6 verse 10 – Jesus points out that the events of earth are a shadow of things that happened in heaven. The things of the kingdom happened in heaven before they happen on earth.

Now may I reference something that happened in heaven in Rev 12:4. Here we learn that Satan drew away “a third part” of heaven. When we understand ancient math we understand that Satan did not draw away 1/3 of heaven. This should be understood to tell us that heaven was divided into three parts (not necessarily equal parts) and that one of the parts followed Satan. The question is – what were the other two parts.

Most Christians do not understand this division of heaven nor do they understand how the children of men are divided into 3 parts on earth. Understanding the three parts is most important in understanding the covenants and what will transpire in the “Last Days” (as well as the history of man and covenants with G-d) as the Kingdom of heaven is established according to Matt 6.

The Traveler

[BenRaines]

Traveler, I have heard that term several times recently regarding the 3rd part and not 1/3 part.

Ben Raines

[prisonchaplain]

Anyone have any good resources to find various Christian discussion or writings that deal with the pre-fallen state of Adam (mankind)? I want to know what various Christians/Theologians think/thought. While I'm sure opinions will differ, I am wondering what ideas are out there.

The topic is an unusual one. I do not recall ever having a lesson in Sunday School, via sermons, in college, or in graduate school on this topic. However, I'll just give you my impressions.

What are the main differences between man's state before and after the fall?

Nature became corrupt. Weeds, sickness, natural disasters, and the degeneration of the human body. Also, we came to "know evil." And, indeed, sin enters, demonstrated hugely by the story of Cain and Abel.

How long was man to stay 'unfallen'?

Some would argue that it happened exactly when God ordained it to happen. I would argue that God "knew," but that his perfect will was for us to remain unfallen. In other words, we did not "fall" into God's best for us, but OUT of it.

If there had not been a fall, what would life be like today (who would be here, trillions of immortal children of Adam and Eve)?

This would be a matter of absolute speculation. However it would have been, it would surely be better than it is now.

What was the fall?

The quest for the knowledge of evil included the promise that they would be like God. If we are like God, then we do not need him. In essence, the Serpent offered rebellion. The Creator was rejected in favor of independence.

What caused the fall?

Adam and Eve willfully chose rebellion against God.

So if the fall was a bad thing why did He give us agency?

So that we could willfully chose to love him, worship him, and serve him. Additionally, when we are glorified to live forever with him, we will never again question why loyalty to God and absolute zero-tolerance for sin is necessary.

[rosie321]

The whole idea of the pre fallen world is an area of doctrines that keeps me LDS It's one area that I haven't gotton a satisfying answer any place else that makes sense. Being such an important, pivital part of the gospel it should. Only basic LDS concepts help it make more sense for me and brings peace.

Some basic principles of non LDS christian faiths that I"ve grown up learning

We have an all knowing, all powerful God, perfect God

God created the earth-that is when everything began. Before that there was nothing but God out there There are differing views when the angels and Satan come in. Most faiths will acknowledge that Satan was cast down from Heaven before creation and took a host of heaven with him. Others believe the Heaven that Satan was cast out from was actually in the garden of Eden. I have come across a rare few that believe Satans casting down has not officially happened yet. It is something that John the Revelator spoke of and it will not occur until after Christs 2nd coming. Universally I have found discussions of Satans fall an area that most do not like to speak about or discuss since it dwelves into unknown and speculative areas. The idea is expressed that men should not go there. It is beyond our comprehension (Despite God asking us to know Him , telling us "to seek him and ye shall find"... )

Some believe that God was lonely and that's why he put people on the earth to keep him company.

He prepared for them the perfect place -the garden of Eden.

They had daily communion with God.

God only asked Adam and Eve not to partake of the fruit and they would be there forever.

All fell apart after they ate of the fruit of the tree. From that point on we have all become sinful and bear the burden of Adams sin. Before the fruit was eaten there was no death, sickness, pain... just closeness to God.

Where some of my major struggles come in on believing the nonLDS views of the prefall.

-Why would God really make people in the first place from a non LDS perspective?

-The traditional non LDS christian view of God. With him being this supernatural, incomprehensible entity that we can not begin to understand. (when the scriptures ask us to know of Him to learn of him. That eternal life is "to know God the Eternal Father and His Son in whom he hath sent"NT....)

-Why would an all knowing and all powerful God create people with the fatal flaw of choice? Knowing that they would not keep His commands? From this perspective it seems like the cards were stacked against people right from the start. Why should Adam and Eve be punished? God made them imperfect and leaves them with an evil predator lurking about? Then to make up for Adams mistake (and His for leaving Adam alone with Satan) men are put through many tribulations over the following years but are promised that the solution is His Son to pay the price (oh wait one part of this entity called God who is going to morphosize into a human to show he cares)????? Why should God be angry at Adam and Eve and punish generations forward? It makes God out to be some kind of crazy entity. Not one worth of emulating IMHO

Where did sin and satan come from? How could Satan take a third of the host of heaven with him? Sounds like some kind of heaven . But from the LDS perspective it really makes more sense especially with other key doctrines-trinity, creation itself, the plan of salvation, free agency, laws of nature ....

An important part of the fall to christians is that many believe that the quest for knowledge and seeking to be like God is what got Adam and Eve in trouble. That is why many faiths struggle with the LDS concepts that encourage us to follow in Gods footsteps and become One with Him. Many feel that LDS are going to hell or be cast out eternally for it. Thus you have films against the church with names like the Godmakers.

I disagree strongly with that. It is a willing choice to follow God and to work within Gods will rather then against (as PC pointed out). God wants us to be like Him by doing His will and following His commands and offers us all He has.

God is bound by laws too and operates under them. He sent His Son to pay the price because he could not.

His Son willingly and lovingly died for us so we could return again to Heavenly Father. The love that just pours out from this version of things really hits the heart. Parents in particular can really understand the pain that Heavenly Father must have gone through in watching His Child die. Understanding, joy, peace, and love grows. Gifts of the Holy spirit not Satan.

The whole picture of the prefall just becomes a a whole lot clearer and easier to understand through LDS eyes to me. God wants us to know Him and gives us the knowledge and understanding we need to come to know him. We are His children but have sinned in our chosen free agency. God wants us to turn to Him and to know Him. Many christian people fear that LDS try and limit God to our human understanding. Two thoughts come to mind on that as mentioned before. 1st the more I understand the "simplicity" of things the more complicated it looks to me. 2ndly God wants us to know HIm and to understand. He has even said this is eternal life. Why would he punish us for trying to do what we are asked? He gives us our minds and hearts to be able to understand His spirit. We will not be operating under our own understanding when the spirit is alive in our hearts. The spirit will show things the way they are.

Pc good post. Much the same as I've learned

<div class='quotemain'>

Anyone have any good resources to find various Christian discussion or writings that deal with the pre-fallen state of Adam (mankind)? I want to know what various Christians/Theologians think/thought. While I'm sure opinions will differ, I am wondering what ideas are out there.

The topic is an unusual one. I do not recall ever having a lesson in Sunday School, via sermons, in college, or in graduate school on this topic. However, I'll just give you my impressions.

What are the main differences between man's state before and after the fall?

Nature became corrupt. Weeds, sickness, natural disasters, and the degeneration of the human body. Also, we came to "know evil." And, indeed, sin enters, demonstrated hugely by the story of Cain and Abel.

How long was man to stay 'unfallen'?

Some would argue that it happened exactly when God ordained it to happen. I would argue that God "knew," but that his perfect will was for us to remain unfallen. In other words, we did not "fall" into God's best for us, but OUT of it.

If there had not been a fall, what would life be like today (who would be here, trillions of immortal children of Adam and Eve)?

This would be a matter of absolute speculation. However it would have been, it would surely be better than it is now.

What was the fall?

The quest for the knowledge of evil included the promise that they would be like God. If we are like God, then we do not need him. In essence, the Serpent offered rebellion. The Creator was rejected in favor of independence.

What caused the fall?

Adam and Eve willfully chose rebellion against God.

So if the fall was a bad thing why did He give us agency?

So that we could willfully chose to love him, worship him, and serve him. Additionally, when we are glorified to live forever with him, we will never again question why loyalty to God and absolute zero-tolerance for sin is necessary.

[a-train]

Hey,

Thanks everyone for your input. I appreciate it all. My purpose in asking this is that I want to know if there is any common idea or at least a few common ideas about man's pre-fallen state in the Garden among the various Christian faiths.

Growing up LDS, I have often heard: "Mormon's believe that they will get their own planet if they go to heaven. HAHA! Those idiots!" or "Those silly Mormon's think they will have 'celestial sex' and have millions of kids for eternities on their own planet!"

Though I have never heard this specific language within the LDS Church, I can see that their expressions are in reference to Eternal Progression or the power of those who overcome this world to "sit with [God] in [His] throne" (Rev. 3:21) and Eternal Marriage, etc.

Still, it is interesting that the mockers would state the concept this way, because the very first chapter of the Bible tells us that God made man in his own image and gave him a planet on which to dwell saying: "let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." (Gen 1:26)

God then gave his first commandment to man: "Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth." (Gen. 1:28)

Perhaps the masses of Christianity don't see this my way, but it appears to me that the genesis story is a direct case where a man was given his own planet (Although under the authority of God; I think the antis would say the LDS believe they will someday be on their own without being under God's Authority, which again is something I have never seen taught by the LDS) and commanded to people it with his own children.

I guess I am trying to figure out how the Christian masses see this. Although I can understand that they think it crazy that anyone but Adam would have this experience (and of course, LDS don't teach that the saved will become 'Adams' to other, newer, planets) it still bothers me that the concept that such would happen to any man seems completely outrages and idle to most.

Furthermore, if Adam and Eve were asked to live in eternal felicity and faithfulness to each other and God in a state of Matrimony as Provided by Him, multiplying and having dominion over the earth, wouldn't that be 'Eternal Marriage'? Do Christians believe that they were not married? "And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed." (Gen 2:25)

I guess I am trying to understand what the various Christian thoughts on Adam's proposed term or license was for his marriage to Eve and dominion over the Earth.

Do most Christians think that this was already planned by God from the beginning to be only temporary?

Is the possiblity for Adam to return to such a state lost forever?

Is this the definition of the Fall? I mean, not only did Adam lose his at one-ment with God, but his immortality, his dominion over the earth, his wife, the whole package?

most importantly:

Do most Christians believe Adam will get all this back as a result of the Atonement?

If Adam will NOT get this back, does this mean that the redemption of Christ will only redeem Adam with respect to damnation from hell, but will not totally redeem him from the Fall, or the various things he lost through the Fall?

This is what I am trying to get a handle on. For the most part, I have been able to find reasons or doctrines or whatever to explain almost all the differences between LDS and the Christian masses, but this one is something I cannot seem to find anything on.

I appreciate opinions, but I am looking for the more authoritative teachings of mainstream Christian teachers on the subject.

Thanks everyone. If you have any ideas of where I can see the main-stream Christian concepts here, I would appreciate it. Thanks again.

God Bless

-a-train

[Traveler]

a-train: Please forgive my ramblings but I find the process more interesting when considering other faiths through an attitude of finding truth rather than error. There is a great deal that can be learned of truth from considering a different view. Besides, I like the idea of being on a quest for truth rather than error.

The Traveler

[a-train]

Traveler,

Please do not misunderstand. I am NOT looking for errors or misunderstandings. This is NOT an attempt to anti mainstream Christianity. I am NOT writing a research paper or book on 'the evils of Christian philosophy'.

I highly respect the scholarship, wisdom, and faith of the better Christian Theologians, especially those known as the Church Fathers. I DO NOT consider them wicked and/or deceitful. When considering the Trinity, Virgin Birth, Speaking in Tongues, Baptism, and virtually any other topic dealing with the Scriptures, we can get specific, authoritative pronouncements from various mainstream Christian faiths on the matter.

All I am asking is: Is there such a pronouncement from any of the various denominations of mainstream Christianity on the subject I have mentioned?

I am NOT looking for any personal opinion. I am NOT looking to debate the topic. I AM ONLY looking to see if anyone is aware of any creed, discussion, pronouncement, or statement from any authoritative mainstream Christian source on the topic.

You see, I could jump to a conclusion based on the statements I mentioned made by anti's about the LDS "getting there own planet". I could automatically assume the mainstream Christian answers to the questions I asked, but I DON'T WANT TO DO THAT. I want to know what would be considered by various Christian Authorities to be the Orthodox answer to those questions. I honestly don't know.

For me, the matter is very difficult to put into a nutshell and that may be why it is hard for me to find what I am looking for. Perhaps if anyone knows a better way to ask what I am asking?

Help!

Thanks.

-a-train

[rosie321]

This is a major difference between LDS and non -LDS. Having been a nonLDS christian for many years, I have found no one to give a satisfying answer to this area. I really believe from searching no one really knows definitively. There is only speculations to my knowledge. It is an area that no one dares to officially go and share with the general populace. The only thing that is of agreement is that is was a perfect time of communion with God. Adam and Eve had it all and blew it. The concern and focus is the time after the fall. That men fell short of the glory of God and needed someone to save them. We are all sinners. Christ was the man to save us. Our duty is to follow and obey and not speculate farthur. God will show us what we need to know or it might be revealed in the eternities. But we should not seek it. The quest for knowledge such as this is what God Adam and Eve in trouble. We should be working to follow God and humble ourselves before him instead. As stated above this is one issue that many have against the LDS faith because we seek to know and expect that God will reveal things to us and give us things.

That was an interesting idea you pointed out A-train about God giving Adam dominion over the earth(gave him his own planet) and Eve (eternal marriage). I never thought about it that way before.

Most would agree that God knew that men would probably fall and it was part of some greater plan. So he had the atonement as part of the plan to redeem us. But our duty is to try and follow God and not seek to know those mysteries. That God will reveal to us what he wants us to know in His time. In terms of prefall doctrine I think you are going to be really hard pressed to find any agreement on it or find many strong views on it.

John Milton's Paradise Lost is the only detailed thing I've found that really dares to enter into that area and it isn't considered doctrine. I found it interesting reading and it lended support to many LDS concepts though :)

Just to note I was not trying to bash other christian faiths in the above post and truly apologize to anyone if it came across that way. Looking back I did go kind of gung-ho and strong:( . As I stated from the beginning I have searched into this area myself and did not feel I recieved an adequate answer in christian circles. From much study I have grown very passionate that so far the LDS has the boldest and most probable answers concerning it. That this is most likely where many of the lost, or missing precious truths spoken of during Joseph Smiths time are found and why the restoration was necessary. This area contains many of the fundamental truths of the gospel, imo. What better time to bring forth such precious truths when God is actively trying to restore and bring His children home? To gather them together back to the prefall state? Its difficult not to get too overly excited about something that seems so exciting. I truly did not want to bring offense though to our non-LDS christian friends. (I hate the term non-LDS christian but don't know what else to call it without having to think about every other possible christian faith and then write it down :) }

[mom_of_jcchlsm]

The thing that always gets me is this: if God intended Adam and Eve to live in the garden of Eden eternally, why in the world did He even put the tree there? You know - if he designed the perfect garden for them, why would He put in a dangerous element and then point it out to them? Even without Satan to tempt them, that's a little like putting a toddler in a room with a can of spray paint and saying "you can play in here all you want, but don't push the button on top of this here can - no, no, something bad will happen." and then walking out of the room to see how long it will take for the toddler to get curious.

[rosie321]

Mom of Jcchlsm I agree with you 100%. To me there was always more to the story that we should know. I just could never find a satifying rest of the story elsewhere besides the LDS faith.

This is defineately an interesting area of discussion. I'm glad you brought it up A-Train. I must say I've become very biased but took time to go back some and search. Its started interesting conversation with my husband who is non LDS christian concerning this. I'm sure we'll be speaking more of it and looking at it more :) He pretty much agrees that the focus is on post fall. Most don't care about the prefall because whatever was before will not be what is to come. That part is done and over. Eye hath not seen ear hath not heard all that God hath prepared for us in the future. We diligently focus our attentions on God. There will be a new heaven and earth one day. So what was will never be again. Why be concerned over it?

As far as Satans fall he emphasized the christian perspective that Lucifer was an angel of light and angels were celestial beings and different from man. The scriptural references to Lucifers fall is to show where he came from and that Lucifer had it all and threw it away because of wanting to act in a way that would give him the glory outside of Gods will. Some christians I know believe that this is why God created man to keep them at a different level. Through the fall, man disobeyed God too and sought to have the mind of God therefore were cast out. But he was not at the level of Lucifer and He had mercy. Many don't want to ask too many questions or dwelve to deep , especially in prefall matters, so as not to fall into a trap. After all look what happened to Adam and Lucifer. (The non-LDS christian world does not have LDS knowledge that Adam repented to God or that it was part of the plan). For the most part in the christian world Adam is the type of what not to do. The bad side of things. How to mess up your life 101 :) . Christ was the good side of things. Redeeming man and all.

There was accomodations made from the start for the fall, through the atonement. Since men could not die in their sin and return to heavenly father, as all christians would agree that is why the Tree of Life had the cherubims placed to guard it and they were cast out. This was the provision and saftey net in place.

Having grown up around non-christian believes, it just amazes me how many truths are found from Satans fall, creation, pre-fall and fall. The more I read, listen and learn I guess I just can't help but see it anyway

but the LDS. Its not a taboo area. God wants us to know and learn to be obedient. It really does bring peace and comfort to see the truths lined up the LDS way and in respect to God. To see the truths lined up from beginning to now and to the future promises and see the power in the details. There really seems to be a lack of this knowledge in other faiths. Before I came across the church while I always yearned to know more it didn't seem like such an important matter. But now........

I stand all amazed......

So many truths lie within that time.....

It's amazing how perspectives change when eyes are opened to new things that tug the heart strings :)

[Traveler]

Traveler,

Please do not misunderstand. I am NOT looking for errors or misunderstandings. This is NOT an attempt to anti mainstream Christianity. I am NOT writing a research paper or book on 'the evils of Christian philosophy'.

I highly respect the scholarship, wisdom, and faith of the better Christian Theologians, especially those known as the Church Fathers. I DO NOT consider them wicked and/or deceitful. When considering the Trinity, Virgin Birth, Speaking in Tongues, Baptism, and virtually any other topic dealing with the Scriptures, we can get specific, authoritative pronouncements from various mainstream Christian faiths on the matter.

All I am asking is: Is there such a pronouncement from any of the various denominations of mainstream Christianity on the subject I have mentioned?

I am NOT looking for any personal opinion. I am NOT looking to debate the topic. I AM ONLY looking to see if anyone is aware of any creed, discussion, pronouncement, or statement from any authoritative mainstream Christian source on the topic.

Help!

Thanks.

-a-train

a-train: Good luck - I have yet to find a scripture that give specific information concerning G-d the Father. This lack of information is one of the problems that feed Trinitarians. Most people think that the creation tells about the creation of Adam and Eve - but Genesis talks about the creation of man and not any specific man. I have pointed out (in vein) that we can observe quite straight forwardly the creation and birth of man in any sex education class. Yet most Christians (even many LDS) believe Adam was created differently than you and I; even though there is no scripture that gives any hint that his creation was any different.

A long time ago I posted that much of Christian thinking comes from legions and fantasy based on paganism rather than scripture. This applies not only to the pre-fall kingdom of heaven but the after life heaven as well. The vision of Peter at the gates of heaven is a reflection of the Egyptian g-d Mott with the scale of deeds at heaven’s gates and not scripture as well as the idea of the residents of heaven being pampered by servants. Remember that Jesus said that the greatest in heaven is the servant of all. Most Christians (and many LDS) have this all backwards.

The Traveler

Mom of Jcchlsm I agree with you 100%. To me there was always more to the story that we should know. I just could never find a satifying rest of the story elsewhere besides the LDS faith.

This is defineately an interesting area of discussion. I'm glad you brought it up A-Train. I must say I've become very biased but took time to go back some and search. Its started interesting conversation with my husband who is non LDS christian concerning this. I'm sure we'll be speaking more of it and looking at it more :) He pretty much agrees that the focus is on post fall. Most don't care about the prefall because whatever was before will not be what is to come. That part is done and over. Eye hath not seen ear hath not heard all that God hath prepared for us in the future. We diligently focus our attentions on God. There will be a new heaven and earth one day. So what was will never be again. Why be concerned over it?

As far as Satans fall he emphasized the christian perspective that Lucifer was an angel of light and angels were celestial beings and different from man. The scriptural references to Lucifers fall is to show where he came from and that Lucifer had it all and threw it away because of wanting to act in a way that would give him the glory outside of Gods will. Some christians I know believe that this is why God created man to keep them at a different level. Through the fall, man disobeyed God too and sought to have the mind of God therefore were cast out. But he was not at the level of Lucifer and He had mercy. Many don't want to ask too many questions or dwelve to deep , especially in prefall matters, so as not to fall into a trap. After all look what happened to Adam and Lucifer. (The non-LDS christian world does not have LDS knowledge that Adam repented to God or that it was part of the plan). For the most part in the christian world Adam is the type of what not to do. The bad side of things. How to mess up your life 101 :) . Christ was the good side of things. Redeeming man and all.

There was accomodations made from the start for the fall, through the atonement. Since men could not die in their sin and return to heavenly father, as all christians would agree that is why the Tree of Life had the cherubims placed to guard it and they were cast out. This was the provision and saftey net in place.

Having grown up around non-christian believes, it just amazes me how many truths are found from Satans fall, creation, pre-fall and fall. The more I read, listen and learn I guess I just can't help but see it anyway

but the LDS. Its not a taboo area. God wants us to know and learn to be obedient. It really does bring peace and comfort to see the truths lined up the LDS way and in respect to God. To see the truths lined up from beginning to now and to the future promises and see the power in the details. There really seems to be a lack of this knowledge in other faiths. Before I came across the church while I always yearned to know more it didn't seem like such an important matter. But now........

I stand all amazed......

So many truths lie within that time.....

It's amazing how perspectives change when eyes are opened to new things that tug the heart strings :)

I posted before that what happens on earth is a reflection of what has happened before in heaven. As to Satan and his fall from heaven - keep in mind that Satan will be sent from earth like he was from heaven. So Satan and his followers will fall from earth. In pre-fall heaven the word of the Father was spread. Some bought into it and took an active role - some fought against it and took an active role in their fighting. Some thought of themselves that did their own thing. We see this same thing happining on earth. As it says in Ecc. 1:9 there is nothing "new" under the sun.

The Traveler

[BenRaines]

Traveler, you are right on top of it. "All" things were created spiritually before they were created physically. Along with that all things happened spiritually before physically. If it were not so how would the prophets be taken to a place where they could see from the beginning of time to the end of time. How Nephi saw the destruction of his people, how Abraham saw his posterity.

I agree Traveler.

Ben Raines

[rosie321]

Traveler, you are right on top of it. "All" things were created spiritually before they were created physically. Along with that all things happened spiritually before physically. If it were not so how would the prophets be taken to a place where they could see from the beginning of time to the end of time. How Nephi saw the destruction of his people, how Abraham saw his posterity.

I agree Traveler.

Ben Raines

I've heard things explained this way and it makes sense. I tend to agree with this line of thought. God uses principles of science. God knows what will happen before hand because of time being relative and His ability to go beyond time. Others can explain the scientifics better than I. But basically God can use science to see in advance what will happen and share that with us. He can literally see beforehand because of the relative time. That is how prophecies are able to be so detailed and the prophets are able to see actual events before they happen. We still have choice but God knows what our choice will be beforehand. Our paths are known because they've already been seen but we still always do have choice.

As you said everything was created spiritually first. Isn't that how we everything happens? Right down to the "As a man thinketh so he is".....

lots of references in LDS resources

[Traveler]

Thanks for the reflections to my post. The Book of Mormon talks about types and shadows in scripture. Once this is understood we begin to understand how all the epochs in scripture are types and shadows - both as to what has taken place but also as to what is taking place and what will take place.

Let me use one epoch as an example: Consider the deliverance of Israel by Moses from Egypt. This is a shadow and type of things in heaven (pre-fall) as well as the deliverance of man in the last days from Babylon and the final judgement and resurrection. It can also be understood as a type and shadow of a individual in quest of the Kingdom (rest) of G-d. In other words the scriptures are our own story as a type and shadow as scripture is "liken" unto us.

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

Perhaps the masses of Christianity don't see this my way, but it appears to me that the genesis story is a direct case where a man was given his own planet (Although under the authority of God; I think the antis would say the LDS believe they will someday be on their own without being under God's Authority, which again is something I have never seen taught by the LDS) and commanded to people it with his own children.

Most Christians believe that humanity is the highest of God's creation, and that we were, as God's people, to have dominion over the earth. You are right, that we perceive your teaching to mean that you hope to be Gods of your own planets (perhaps with the Heavenly Father as God of Gods?). The key question we would ask: do you have the hope that at some point in your dominion over a planet, those that reside their would worship you? If the answer is affirmative, most of us would have deep theological struggles with your belief.

it still bothers me that the concept that such would happen to any man seems completely outrages and idle to most.

It's the belief that we, who so deeply worship our God, would have the hope of being worshipped ourselves, that most Christians find so troubling.

Furthermore, if Adam and Eve were asked to live in eternal felicity and faithfulness to each other and God in a state of Matrimony as Provided by Him, multiplying and having dominion over the earth, wouldn't that be 'Eternal Marriage'? Do Christians believe that they were not married? "And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed." (Gen 2:25)

You're probably aware that most Christians take the passage in which Jesus said that there will be no marrying in heaven to mean that our earthly marriages will not transfer to heaven. Remember that we have no sealing ceremonies, and no instruction outside the Bible. So, for us, Jesus' instruction seems comprehensive and without amendment.

I guess I am trying to understand what the various Christian thoughts on Adam's proposed term or license was for his marriage to Eve and dominion over the Earth. Do most Christians think that this was already planned by God from the beginning to be only temporary?

There is a fine line between God's foreknowledge and predestination. Our Heavenly Father certainly knew that Adam and Eve would rebel. Your argument that God's orginal plan was for an eternal marriage with dominion over the earth is intriguing, and new to me.

Is the possiblity for Adam to return to such a state lost forever?

Perhaps. Often, when we choose a certain course, we can never retrace our steps and recapture the other possiblity. Instead, we must try to move from our current deficient course to the one God would have for us from our current state.

Is this the definition of the Fall? I mean, not only did Adam lose his at one-ment with God, but his immortality, his dominion over the earth, his wife, the whole package?

It is very likely, imho, that Adam and Eve are in heaven, and will be glorified. They will always have the never-dimming memory of their relationship on earth. However, they will also have the heart of God, and will have a special love for all their progeny. Perhaps this love will overshadow our earthly affiliations, and we shall all love our human family with an infinitely greater love than we currently offer to our immediate loved ones?

most importantly: Do most Christians believe Adam will get all this back as a result of the Atonement? If Adam will NOT get this back, does this mean that the redemption of Christ will only redeem Adam with respect to damnation from hell, but will not totally redeem him from the Fall, or the various things he lost through the Fall?

Adam may have lost the original course God had laid out for him, but he (and we) will yet have eternal reward, glorification, and communion with our God. My guess is that they and we shall have no complaints.

This is what I am trying to get a handle on. For the most part, I have been able to find reasons or doctrines or whatever to explain almost all the differences between LDS and the Christian masses, but this one is something I cannot seem to find anything on.

I hope I've helped. Also, keep in mind that most Christians limit ourselves to the Holy Bible, and some would add church tradition. So, many of these questions that your writings have given you more concrete answers to, remain somewhat vague but blessed promises to us.

[Traveler]

<div class='quotemain'>

Perhaps the masses of Christianity don't see this my way, but it appears to me that the genesis story is a direct case where a man was given his own planet (Although under the authority of God; I think the antis would say the LDS believe they will someday be on their own without being under God's Authority, which again is something I have never seen taught by the LDS) and commanded to people it with his own children.

Most Christians believe that humanity is the highest of God's creation, and that we were, as God's people, to have dominion over the earth. You are right, that we perceive your teaching to mean that you hope to be Gods of your own planets (perhaps with the Heavenly Father as God of Gods?). The key question we would ask: do you have the hope that at some point in your dominion over a planet, those that reside their would worship you? If the answer is affirmative, most of us would have deep theological struggles with your belief.

it still bothers me that the concept that such would happen to any man seems completely outrages and idle to most.

It's the belief that we, who so deeply worship our God, would have the hope of being worshipped ourselves, that most Christians find so troubling.

Personally I have no interest or desire to be worshiped. But there is a couple interesting problems - first - that emulation is the highest form of worship. And that if we are "one" with G-d so that we are one in G-d and he in us - how then could someone "worship" G-d and not also that which is one with G-d?

The Traveler

[rosie321]

Personally I have no interest or desire to be worshiped. But there is a couple interesting problems - first - that emulation is the highest form of worship. And that if we are "one" with G-d so that we are one in G-d and he in us - how then could someone "worship" G-d and not also that which is one with G-d?

The Traveler

Very interesting thoughts enjoyed.

Looks like one of those gospel round and round we go's until the formation of one unified body at the end :)

Ever feel like we're not only dogs not only going after our own vomit (as per scriptures) but dogs chasing our own tails too?

[prisonchaplain]

Personally I have no interest or desire to be worshiped. But there is a couple interesting problems - first - that emulation is the highest form of worship. And that if we are "one" with G-d so that we are one in G-d and he in us - how then could someone "worship" G-d and not also that which is one with G-d?

The Traveler

Of course, from where you/we sit now, it's unfathomable to think we would some day be worshipped. And yet, you express the logical conclusion of your beliefs, that such will happen.

Bro. Dorsey's question--that I attempted to tackle--was why we non-LDS Christians find the claims of your church so hard to accept. Whether you are right or not, this matter is a big one. For most Christians, any doctrine that would lead me to believe that the time would come when I might expect to be worshipped as God (whether I desire/seek it or not) is one that would require extreme scrutiny.