Pre-fallen State Of Man

[a-train]

PC,

I can say that I am somewhat surprised to see that virtually NONE of the mainstream Christian world believes in the redemption of Adam to his state in the Garden (meaning he returns as the father of all mankind, husband of Eve, etc.).

PC: What of the earth? I understand that Christians believe in the final triumph of the Kingdom of God and establishment of Jesus Christ as the ruler of all the earth, King of Kings (which LDS believe). Where is Adam in all this, will he be around (for that matter all the ancients)? And is this period to come to an end which will result in the righteous leaving the earth forever?

I've heard Christian Pastors point to Thess 4:17 and say that those so caught up "to meet the Lord in the air... [to] ever be with the Lord" will go to heaven, never to return to earth. Is it interpreted by mainstream Christianity that ultimately all will leave earth, the righteous to Heaven, the wicked to Punishment, and the earth is therefore abandoned?

PC: "The key question we would ask: do you have the hope that at some point in your dominion over a planet, those that reside their would worship you?"

I hope to not confuse you. LDS do not believe they will get a 'dominion over a planet' per se. In Adam's position which we honor as Patriarch and Prophet, we do not worship him as we do our Father in Heaven (Adam-God-Theory people bug off!!!), which I am certain you are aware.

As you probably know, D&C 76 contains a Revelation through Joseph Smith with regard to mankind's ultimate post-judgement end. It is here that it is said of those who "come forth in the resurrection of the just", "who overcome by faith" will be (here comes the controversial) "gods, even the sons of God— Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s." (58-59)

"Wherefore, let no man glory in man, but rather let him glory in God, who shall subdue all enemies under his feet. These shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever." (61-62)

LDS believe that those who go on to perfection and Eternal Life will forever follow the example of the Saviour and give all glory to the Father (Moses 4:2). Those who are sanctified, will worship God, and the Lamb, forever and ever. (D&C 76:21)

The Kingdom in which these dwell is here designated as the Celestial "which excels in all things—where God, even the Father, reigns upon his throne forever and ever; Before whose throne all things bow in humble reverence, and give him glory forever and ever." (D&C 76:92)

The answer to your question is that those who DO have the hope to be worshiped and who "give not glory to God" will NOT be exalted in the Celestial Kingdom.

For they have not remembered "seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you" (Luke 12:31)

(this is getting long, sorry)

If you haven't heard the LDS understanding of Luke 20:27-38/Mark 12:18-27 concerning the Sadducees' question and the Saviour's answer let me know I'll get you up to speed. If you have, then cool.

PC:"Your argument that God's orginal plan was for an eternal marriage with dominion over the earth is intriguing, and new to me."

Again, sorry if I am confusing things, but LDS actually don't believe that this was the LORD'S intention, at least in those terms.

LDS believe "to bring about [the LORD's] eternal purposes in the end of man, after he had created our first parents, and the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and in fine, all things which are created, it must needs be that there was an opposition; even the forbidden fruit in opposition to the tree of life; the one being sweet and the other bitter." (2 Nephi 2:15)

"And now behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.

Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.

And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall. And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon, save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day, according to the commandments which God hath given.

Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself." (2 Nephi 2:22-27)

this is super long and I am super sorry

Thus, "it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so... ...righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.

Wherefore, it must needs have been created for a thing of naught; wherefore there would have been no purpose in the end of its creation. Wherefore, this thing must needs destroy the wisdom of God and his eternal purposes, and also the power, and the mercy, and the justice of God." (2 Nephi 2:11-12)

Therefore, LDS Believe that the fall was a necessary and pre-conceived part of God's Plan. He used Satan to bring it about, wherefore even Satan in all his rebellion still serves to bring to pass the LORD's purposes, even as they who did crucify our LORD.

What was the purpose of the fall? To teach man good from evil so that they could "act for themselves". It also instituted the principle of faith. Man needed no faith while standing in the light of God's presence, but it is here in the dark and dreary world that we learn this great 1st principle of the Gospel, faith in the LORD Jesus Christ.

We believe that Adam and Eve will be resurrected to immortality and will again be on this earth with its renewed Paradisical Glory living under the personal reign of Christ (10th Article of Faith). Adam will stand again as the Great Patriarch of the human family and not only will he and his seed be redeemed from hell, but all Spiritual Death, Physical Death, and even his marriage to Eve, the mother of all living will be redeemed.

All of Adam and Eve's posterity will be resurrected and have the ability through the Atonement of Christ to live here also and posess the same benefits of the Atonement as I've mentioned above.

Perhaps I should have just directed you to 2 Nephi Chapter 2, the whole chapter is mainly on the subject.

OK, That's long enough.

GOD Bless

-a-train

[Traveler]

Of course, from where you/we sit now, it's unfathomable to think we would some day be worshipped. And yet, you express the logical conclusion of your beliefs, that such will happen.

I do not disagree with anything you have said but it would appear that when children are brought up in a home of goodly parents guided by love and compassion, the children will, to some degree, worship those parents, especially through emulation. It is not just the logical conclusion to my beliefs - it is the logical conclusion of "the more excelent way".

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

A-train, you are right about Adam. We believe that he will be glorified, but not that he will necessary achieve the status quo ante, vis a vi The Fall.

As for the role of the ancients (including Adam) in the End Times, we believe we shall be united with them, and all of us share glorified natures. We shall rule and reign with Christ. There will be a new heavens and earth--with the millenial reign taking place on the latter. So, I imagine we will experience it anew.

Keep in mind too, that with the Bible as our source of written Scripture, many of these questions simply cannot be authoratively answered. We do not have a clear vision of how our glorified futures will be. Hints, yes--but not a panoramic view.

Concerning the LDS view of eternal marriage vs. Jesus "not in heaven" passage, I believe I have seen the FAIR article on the subject.

Finally, what you did in presenting the scenario of God ordaining eternal marriage IF they were not suppose to fall was to take the standard Christian view and bring it back to us with an intriguing implication. OK, I'm clear that you were not sharing the LDS view, but rather the possible implications of my own views. Intriguing nonetheless.

A-train, you are a thoughtful and thought-generating poster. Blessings 2-U

[CrimsonKairos]

(Adam-God-Theory people bug off!!!)

Well said. B)

I wish I had the book and chapter reference for you (which I don't), but I did read in an online copy of the ante-nicene fathers' works that one of them taught eternal marriage was a reality. His reasoning was simple, and one argument he used was this:

Why would God forbid divorce and only allow it in special cases (Old Testament rules), and then turn around and annul every marriage of every couple in heaven?

Compelling argument.

I'll try and track down the specific work and author for you.

Also, the beginning of Mark 10 is relevant to the topic of eternal marriage. Christ teaches that in the beginning marriage was to be eternal, and marriages performed by the authority of God were not to be "put asunder" by man. Why then, would God "put asunder" in heaven the very marriages He authorized/es?

Love the thread.

[prisonchaplain]

As a humorous side note, I recall the scene in God's Army in which two LDS missionaries are explaining eternal marriage to a man who is obviously frustrated with his current one. Kids are crying, the place is a mess, and his wife is looking much more like a housekeeper than an eternal mate. He looks at them with distaste in his eyes, and says, "No thanks!"

I fully suspect that if I am right (that earthly marriages will not carry on in the eternal kingdom of heaven), that God will replace this aspect of our lives with something even more fulfilling.

[CrimsonKairos]

Well PC, if I didn't believe that marriages can be eternal, I too would expect God to provide something far brighter and better in the next life in lieu of marriages.

[a-train]

The LDS view of Adam's stewardship over the earth, his posterity, etc. is applicable to all of his posterity. His stewardship was to bring about the work of God. Indeed we believe that each of us must use our several gifts from God in His service.

Now the question of whether it is a righteous desire or not to possess and accumulate great knowledge and/or power is not contingent on that knowledge or power itself, but by the desire therein and the end thereof.

I once heard of a woman saying: "I want to take up the smallest particle of Heaven and from there sing praises to God's name, for I want Him to have more of Heaven, and therefore more glory."

Imagine for a moment that the less power, knowledge, portion of Heaven, or whatever we receive from God, the more is left for Him and therefore the more is given to His glory. Would this not mean that it would glorify God most for us to take NO PORTION? Should we all go to hell so that He can get all glory? Is it a wise assumption to say that whatever He gives us, he no longer owns and is no longer glorified therein?

I would view this concept as a virtual antithesis to the actual process of the glorification of God which is "to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." (Moses 1:39)

The Parable of the Talents and the Parable of the Pounds are powerful assertions and typifications of our true role in the glorification of God through service (Matt 25:14-30 & Luke 19:11-27)

Although with few talents we can glorify our Master with an increase, we can do more so with a greater capacity in the first place. Furthermore if we through greater effectiveness and diligence can produce a greater increase with one Pound than with less heed and labor over the same, we can therefore glorify God even more.

Therefore it is written that "unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required" (Luke 12:48) and our mission in His service is to "magnif[y our] calling" (D&C 84:33).

Therefore we should not fear the admonition of Paul to "covet earnestly the best gifts" (1 Cor. 12:31) But "beware lest ye are deceived; and that ye may not be deceived seek ye earnestly the best gifts, always remembering for what they are given." (D&C 46:8) For "when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man." (D&C 121:37)

LDS therefore think it great righteousness for a man to take on power and wisdom from the Source of all such and to use it as directed by Him in the bringing about of the immortality and eternal life of man. To this end was Adam created and placed in the Garden, and for this purpose have we his posterity been expanded that we may eternally be "made ruler over many things".

I hope this paints a little clearer picture of the LDS understanding of Exaltation.

-a-train

[a-train]

I DID find out that Jehovah's Witnesses believe the earth will be renewed to it's pre-fallen state to remain so eternally with all creatures, plant and animal life, and only the righteous redeemed of mankind. It will be the ultimate Paradise for mankind, and not Heaven. They believe the unrighteous will not go to any sort of/place of punishment, but will be totally annihilated.

Connected with this, they reject any notion of a spirit or immortal soul of man, but attribute all the mind, spirit, and essence of man to the body only. As such, they believe that at death, we are completely disassembled and have no continuing awareness or consciousness.

Their view is that only the saved will be resurrected at which point their consciousness will be renewed and therefore the period between death and resurrection will appear to them as instantaneous. They base all of this on their interpretation of their own translation of the Bible (no other sources). The authority on such is vested in a group of "Anointed" persons believed to be constituents of the 144,000 spoken of in Revelation which will be the exclusive partakers of Heavenly Paradise.

This group spends their time engaged in scripture study and in releasing pronouncements of new discoveries based on the scriptures (the most recent of which is the proclamation that the gospel preached to all the world as spoken of by Christ in Matt 24:14 has just been fulfilled) from 'Bethel', which is the organization's headquarters in Brooklyn New York. While they believe the group to receive divine inspiration in interpreting the Scriptures, they do not attribute to them visions or extra-Biblical revelation.

I am yet uncertain as to their understanding of whether marriages will be reunited or not, or what role resurrected mankind will play into the future.

Although they insist their doctrine to be that of the Bible, it is again only so if their leaders in Brooklyn are truly inspired and indeed understand the Scripture correctly.

It is this fact that continues to keep the keystone of every religion in something other than the Bible. It is interpretation that it comes down to. Any of us, including the LDS are only living the teachings of the Bible if we interpret it correctly. It is this principle that continues to show the validity of Jacob's call:

"O then, my beloved brethren, come unto the Lord, the Holy One. Remember that his paths are righteous. Behold, the way for man is narrow, but it lieth in a straight course before him, and the keeper of the gate is the Holy One of Israel; and he employeth no servant there; and there is none other way save it be by the gate; for he cannot be deceived, for the Lord God is his name." (2 Nephi 9:41)

The only manner in which we can know if a given interpretation is correct is through the LORD directly. In this manner the LORD makes us each come personally to Him without the interposition of any man; otherwise, we cannot come in to the light, but will remain in the dark.

-a-train

[Traveler]

I DID find out that Jehovah's Witnesses believe the earth will be renewed to it's pre-fallen state to remain so eternally with all creatures, plant and animal life, and only the righteous redeemed of mankind. It will be the ultimate Paradise for mankind, and not Heaven. They believe the unrighteous will not go to any sort of/place of punishment, but will be totally annihilated.

Connected with this, they reject any notion of a spirit or immortal soul of man, but attribute all the mind, spirit, and essence of man to the body only. As such, they believe that at death, we are completely disassembled and have no continuing awareness or consciousness.

Their view is that only the saved will be resurrected at which point their consciousness will be renewed and therefore the period between death and resurrection will appear to them as instantaneous. They base all of this on their interpretation of their own translation of the Bible (no other sources). The authority on such is vested in a group of "Anointed" persons believed to be constituents of the 144,000 spoken of in Revelation which will be the exclusive partakers of Heavenly Paradise.

This group spends their time engaged in scripture study and in releasing pronouncements of new discoveries based on the scriptures (the most recent of which is the proclamation that the gospel preached to all the world as spoken of by Christ in Matt 24:14 has just been fulfilled) from 'Bethel', which is the organization's headquarters in Brooklyn New York. While they believe the group to receive divine inspiration in interpreting the Scriptures, they do not attribute to them visions or extra-Biblical revelation.

I am yet uncertain as to their understanding of whether marriages will be reunited or not, or what role resurrected mankind will play into the future.

Although they insist their doctrine to be that of the Bible, it is again only so if their leaders in Brooklyn are truly inspired and indeed understand the Scripture correctly.

It is this fact that continues to keep the keystone of every religion in something other than the Bible. It is interpretation that it comes down to. Any of us, including the LDS are only living the teachings of the Bible if we interpret it correctly. It is this principle that continues to show the validity of Jacob's call:

"O then, my beloved brethren, come unto the Lord, the Holy One. Remember that his paths are righteous. Behold, the way for man is narrow, but it lieth in a straight course before him, and the keeper of the gate is the Holy One of Israel; and he employeth no servant there; and there is none other way save it be by the gate; for he cannot be deceived, for the Lord God is his name." (2 Nephi 9:41)

The only manner in which we can know if a given interpretation is correct is through the LORD directly. In this manner the LORD makes us each come personally to Him without the interposition of any man; otherwise, we cannot come in to the light, but will remain in the dark.

-a-train

I am sorry to be so anal about this - but it is a strong belief of mine to avoid the temptation to attempt to give the view or thinking of someone else - especially when they are not around to maintain the correctness of what is being provided. Sorry a-train but if people desire to know what JW's believe or purport, it is my strong feeling that they seek out a JW for that information. Other than that - I thank you for your posts.

The Traveler

[Maureen]

I am sorry to be so anal about this - but it is a strong belief of mine to avoid the temptation to attempt to give the view or thinking of someone else - especially when they are not around to maintain the correctness of what is being provided. Sorry a-train but if people desire to know what JW's believe or purport, it is my strong feeling that they seek out a JW for that information. Other than that - I thank you for your posts.

I understand what Traveler is saying but, from my understanding of JW beliefs, I think a-train has got it right!

M.