I Don't Envy Bishoprics. Or Gospel Doctrine Teachers.

[Suzie]

I would enjoy teaching Gospel Doctrine just because it would put a fire under my bum and make me study, but then I worry about this kind of thing. I just don't know if I could handle that. My first experiences in GD involved the older brothers arguing with each other and it made me extremely uncomfortable. Not edifying at all. Another teacher would lecture the entire time and wanted no class participation.

Or...you get a teacher like Suzie and this is real:

1. If you are going offtopic, I tell you.

2. If you are taking all the time and give no chance to others, I tell you.

3. If you are arguing, I tell you.

4. If you are lecturing, I tell you.

5. If you throw a tantrum, I tell you.

THE END.

[Drpepper]

The "typical" answers are typical for a reason.

Love this comment, it just needed a skadoosh at the end if it.

[Magen_Avot]

Love this comment, it just needed a skadoosh at the end if it.

Skadoosh? Urban Dictionary: skadoosh

Oh, you mean (lol) this?...

SKADOOSH!

I think you're biased

[ElectofGod]

Skadoosh.... HAHAH! I haven't heard that since my mission. We used to use it anytime someone said something stupid. :)

Gospel Doctrine Teacher = my favorite calling. I love teaching from the scriptures. Not the manual but from the spirit.

[Drpepper]

Skadoosh.... HAHAH! I haven't heard that since my mission. We used to use it anytime someone said something stupid. :)

Gospel Doctrine Teacher = my favorite calling. I love teaching from the scriptures. Not the manual but from the spirit.

Actually I was paying a compliment. I didn't realise it had a negative term.

Po uses it when victory is at hand. I just likes the the comment and thanks wasn't working for me. SKADOOSH

[embryopocket]

I would suggest inviting this person over for dinner. Or go fishing. Whatever you like to do when "hanging out" with people. Maybe if you spend time together outside of class you can get to know him better and love him for who he is. If you become a true friend of his, maybe you will find out WHY he believes in what he believes. If we look at these people as "problems" and try to find ways to "fix" these problems, we will fail because there is no love involved. Who knows, maybe the Lord wants him to share his differing views because there is some truth to them. :)

[Praetorian_Brow]

I would suggest inviting this person over for dinner. Or go fishing. Whatever you like to do when "hanging out" with people. Maybe if you spend time together outside of class you can get to know him better and love him for who he is. If you become a true friend of his, maybe you will find out WHY he believes in what he believes. If we look at these people as "problems" and try to find ways to "fix" these problems, we will fail because there is no love involved. Who knows, maybe the Lord wants him to share his differing views because there is some truth to them. :)

Astonishing, there is hope for some of us after all.

[Magen_Avot]

Actually I was paying a compliment. I didn't realise it had a negative term.

Po uses it when victory is at hand. I just likes the the comment and thanks wasn't working for me. SKADOOSH

I loved your comment! Especially because of the connection with your profile picture. I had never heard it before though.

[MorningStar]

I would suggest inviting this person over for dinner. Or go fishing. Whatever you like to do when "hanging out" with people. Maybe if you spend time together outside of class you can get to know him better and love him for who he is. If you become a true friend of his, maybe you will find out WHY he believes in what he believes. If we look at these people as "problems" and try to find ways to "fix" these problems, we will fail because there is no love involved. Who knows, maybe the Lord wants him to share his differing views because there is some truth to them. :)

No, he's looking for an audience for his apostate views and I'm not giving him one.

[embryopocket]

No, he's looking for an audience for his apostate views and I'm not giving him one.

"I did not like the old man being called up for erring in doctrine. It looks too much like the Methodist, and not like the Latter-day Saints. Methodists have creeds which a man must believe or be asked out of their church. I want the liberty of thinking and believing as I please. It feels so good not to be trammeled. It does not prove that a man is not a good man because he errs in doctrine." - Joseph Smith, Jr. (History of the Church, 5:340)

[Just_A_Guy]

There's "erring in doctrine", and then there's just plain treating the Church with open contempt. They are not equivalent.

And for all his love of free expression, Smith had no qualms drumming someone out of the Church once they had crossed a certain line.

[MorningStar]

I have known apostates who act like they just want a listening ear or sympathy, but what they really want is to drag you down with them by repeating their list of grievances against the church to anyone who will listen.

[MorningStar]

"I did not like the old man being called up for erring in doctrine. It looks too much like the Methodist, and not like the Latter-day Saints. Methodists have creeds which a man must believe or be asked out of their church. I want the liberty of thinking and believing as I please. It feels so good not to be trammeled. It does not prove that a man is not a good man because he errs in doctrine." - Joseph Smith, Jr. (History of the Church, 5:340)

There is a difference between erring in doctrine our flat out preaching false doctrine.

[Backroads]

I have known apostates who act like they just want a listening ear or sympathy, but what they really want is to drag you down with them by repeating their list of grievances against the church to anyone who will listen.

And pity those who don't readily empathize with them. It's just not worth it. I can love them, but that doesn't mean I have to listen to them criticize the Church.

[ElectofGod]

Originally Posted by MorningStar View Post

I have known apostates who act like they just want a listening ear or sympathy, but what they really want is to drag you down with them by repeating their list of grievances against the church to anyone who will listen.

And pity those who don't readily empathize with them. It's just not worth it. I can love them, but that doesn't mean I have to listen to them criticize the Church.

From the OP, there has not been sufficient evidence that the person is criticizing the church (leaders).

Is he criticizing individuals?

Is he criticizing the "corporate" church?

Is he criticizing the "drifting off course of the church"? (Packer in 1990 stated the church has drifted off course due to 1) Fast growth 2) popularity with the world 3) properity, all of which happened in the church of Alma and Helamen)

It may sound like he is interjecting, even if it be truth, in a way not consistent with longsuffering, patience, in the proper place and time (according to spirit)... So I don't know.

There is two lines, criticizing the leaders due to lack of perfection (unrighteous judgement) which is NOT ok.

Or judging the fruits of the organization itself which we are commanded to do.

All is not OK with Zion but that does not mean we have the right to criticize anyone.

I think empyropocket makes a good remark. You don't know where the individual is at in his progression. He may have hit a point where he has seen the corruption around him and struggling to find stable ground again. I've been there. Its a point where you re-ask yourself what is really true and what isn't? You separate traditions of man from the revelations of God. He may need you (the members) more than you need him to help him realize you won't judge him or prove his point, that members are anything but Christlike that have all gone astray which is not entirely true.

Edited July 8, 2013 by ElectofGod

[Guest]

Gotta share my experience at Church in the Philippines...

First, there was no A/C in the hot tropical climate... second, the power was out so the fans were not working... We had to open the doors and windows which let in all the neighborhood sounds of traffic, barking dogs, playing kids, and people talking to their neighbors over the fences...

Gospel Doctrine class started promptly. The teacher taught from the manual and asks a question as suggested in the manual... I volunteered answers and try to make it short to give others a chance to speak but several class members, including the teacher asks me to elaborate on this and that which caused me to speak for over 5 minutes... They do the same to other people providing answers. Some people say something that is not quite correct (lots of former Catholics there) and others offer corrections all in respectful manner so we end up getting in-depth answers to the questions from the manual and every scripture provided. An hour passes by and I was wondering why the class doesn't seem to be wrapping up... Well, it's simply because the lesson in the manual was not finished yet. The spirit was so strong that I was glad nobody seems to be in a hurry. We wrapped up 20 minutes past the hour. We all go to EQ/RS and spend another hour there. Primary let up 30 minutes into RS so some kids played basketball, some kids hung out with the bishopric in the office, others sat with their mothers in RS. Church let out 30 minutes past schedule and I was loving every minute of it. I walked to the parking lot and I see some people hanging about the parking lot still discussing gospel doctrine and RS lessons...

[ElectofGod]

Gotta share my experience at Church in the Philippines...

First, there was no A/C in the hot tropical climate... second, the power was out so the fans were not working... We had to open the doors and windows which let in all the neighborhood sounds of traffic, barking dogs, playing kids, and people talking to their neighbors over the fences...

Gospel Doctrine class started promptly. The teacher taught from the manual and asks a question as suggested in the manual... I volunteered answers and try to make it short to give others a chance to speak but several class members, including the teacher asks me to elaborate on this and that which caused me to speak for over 5 minutes... They do the same to other people providing answers. Some people say something that is not quite correct (lots of former Catholics there) and others offer corrections all in respectful manner so we end up getting in-depth answers to the questions from the manual and every scripture provided. An hour passes by and I was wondering why the class doesn't seem to be wrapping up... Well, it's simply because the lesson in the manual was not finished yet. The spirit was so strong that I was glad nobody seems to be in a hurry. We wrapped up 20 minutes past the hour. We all go to EQ/RS and spend another hour there. Primary let up 30 minutes into RS so some kids played basketball, some kids hung out with the bishopric in the office, others sat with their mothers in RS. Church let out 30 minutes past schedule and I was loving every minute of it. I walked to the parking lot and I see some people hanging about the parking lot still discussing gospel doctrine and RS lessons...

This is wonderful. The way it should be. Really discussing and expounding doctrine. The ones in my wards seem too much in a hurry to go home and watch their sport games, eat, or whatever else they do. I could spend all day discussing a lesson.

[Guest]

This is wonderful. The way it should be. Really discussing and expounding doctrine. The ones in my wards seem too much in a hurry to go home and watch their sport games, eat, or whatever else they do. I could spend all day discussing a lesson.

Good thing there are no regular sports games on TV on Sundays in the Philippines.

[Leah]

This is wonderful. The way it should be. Really discussing and expounding doctrine. The ones in my wards seem too much in a hurry to go home and watch their sport games, eat, or whatever else they do. I could spend all day discussing a lesson.

The situation Anatess described is rather different than the situation the OP described..wherein someone who is not sustaining the church and the leadership is actively expounding against it in a class.

You are asking us not to judge this person (for whom the leadership has legitimate concerns), yet here you are making the judgment that everyone is in a hurry to go home and watch sports (are you postive that you have lots of people in your ward that rush home to watch sports? It's not possible that some are honoring the Sabbath and don't watch sports on that day? That perhaps they can't hang around church all day because they have home or visiting teaching to do or other meetings to attend? Or - gee willkers - actually want to spend time on Sunday at home with their family, honoring the sabbath together?).

I am sure there are plenty of people who could spend more time discussing the lesson. But we don't always have that luxury. Our building has three wards. If we go overtime, we are infringing on another ward's time. So it is simply respectful to end on time.

Just because the official class has a limited time to meet on Sunday, doesn't mean you can't study the lesson to your heart's content. You could even take the initiative and put together a group of like-minded people to continue the lesson as a small group. Or continue to discuss it at home with your family.

[MorningStar]

The bishopric wasn't there yesterday and it was pretty bad. The lesson was on apostasy and there was major hijacking of the lesson. Felt so bad for the teacher!

[ElectofGod]

The situation Anatess described is rather different than the situation the OP described..wherein someone who is not sustaining the church and the leadership is actively expounding against it in a class.

You are asking us not to judge this person (for whom the leadership has legitimate concerns), yet here you are making the judgment that everyone is in a hurry to go home and watch sports (are you postive that you have lots of people in your ward that rush home to watch sports? It's not possible that some are honoring the Sabbath and don't watch sports on that day? That perhaps they can't hang around church all day because they have home or visiting teaching to do or other meetings to attend? Or - gee willkers - actually want to spend time on Sunday at home with their family, honoring the sabbath together?).

Its not judging when its fact. I never been in a ward that doesn't have families that do this. There was just a thread that popped up on this forum on this very matter. I am the elders quroum first councilor and visit families every week and the majority of the people I meet are struggling with their basic testimonies. Our ward is 6-7% home teaching (Yes I am included in that as I visit only half of mine 2/4). Its a transient ward, members don't stay longer than 1 year for the most part.

Of course there are families that would love to study the gospel in greater depth also in these wards. But their numbers are few. But as for the OP the problem is the spirit cannot dwell when there is contention which seems to be the problem. I don't know how to address the problem. Luckily for me I don't have too

I have acquaintences who I have talked to who are considered apostate from some but are FAR from it, that occasionally speaks out in gospel doctrine classes when they feel a need to. They are not always received well but what they spoke is truth according to my own understanding at least.

Someone in tune with the spirit will know not to consistently to do this as it can cause contention and ruins the lesson from any chance of learning anything (again seems to be the OP problem).

I have come to the conclusion there are two types of apostates:

a) Those who really are

b) Those who think outside the box so the Lord reveals things that would be troublesome to many. As I heard someone say (I think Brigham Young), more people left the church when Section 76 was revealed than they did from polygamy or any other church practice. Because they didn't like the new, now widely accepted, doctrine.

[usun]

I'm gathering he was exed for preaching false doctrine or something along those lines because he makes comments about the church's view of "so-called intellectuals".

Hmm. I actually think he has a point here.

Boyd K Packer in general conference many moons ago said that "so called intellectuals" were among the greatest enemies of the church.

Now imagine one whose personality is intellectually-inclined. Imagine how that person would feel. Being born into a church that not only doesn't accept him but outright vilifies him. And yet Boyd K. Packer has not apologized for the error in his statement.

I feel bad for the guy. I really do. Church leaders have said things (and sometimes say things even today) that are not right and hurt others.

Edited July 15, 2013 by usun

[Just_A_Guy]

Now imagine one whose personality is intellectually-inclined. Imagine how that person would feel. Being born into a church that not only doesn't accept him but outright vilifies him. And yet Boyd K. Packer has not apologized for the error in his statement.

I'll try hard, but be warned--I might fail. We TBMs are kinda short on brain power, you know . . .

I feel bad for the guy. I really do. Church leaders have said things (and sometimes say things even today) that are not right and hurt others.

In this case, I think Elder Packer's remarks were prescient, if not couched in the most diplomatic of terms. "Intellectuals" will chafe, but the wise will put aside their egos and recognize truth when confronted with it.

[usun]

I'll try hard, but be warned--I might fail. We TBMs are kinda short on brain power, you know . . .

Most TBMs do not regard themselves as intellectuals. It is a certain personality type that resides in the minority.

In this case, I think Elder Packer's remarks were prescient, if not couched in the most diplomatic of terms.

Disagree.

"Intellectuals" will chafe, but the wise will put aside their egos and recognize truth when confronted with it.

Again, I think Boyd K. Packer could have put aside his own ego when making these careless remarks.

Edited July 15, 2013 by usun

[Guest]

Many who fancy themselves Intellectuals are not nearly so intellectual as they'd like to think.