The LDS - Traditional Christian Difference

[Traveler]

I do understand that many things can be reconciled by finding common ground and I believe there is much common ground between the LDS faith and other religious disciplines. However, I thought I would start this thread not to argue and debate differences but to clearly define them. This is not meant as criticism but a discussion to clarify actual differences. I will start: (LDS stands for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints -- TC stands for Traditional Christianity.

1. LDS: There are 3 distinct G-ds that comprise the G-dhead. TC: There are 3 persons that are one G-d.

2. LDS: G-d the Father and his Son Jesus Christ have separate distinct glorified resurrected bodies. TC: G-d is a single spirit entity.

3. LDS: Man existed before birth as spirit children of G-d the Father - Adam was the spirit child to receive a body - in the image and likeness of the Father. TC: No man or being of man as spirit or consciousness existed before Adam. Nothing of any person has ever existed prior to conception and creation of a physical being - the spirit of man did not exist until the physical body was created.

4. LDS: Before the creation of the Earth G-d made his plan of salvation and purpose of Creation known to his spirit children and gave them “Agency” to accept or reject his plan. TC: Man has no knowledge of G-d or his plan until he hears of G-d following after his individual creation.

5. LDS: The time to learn of G-d is extended beyond life and salvation comes to all that accept G-d. TC: No one has any opportunity after death and all that do not obtain the necessary grace in this life will be damned.

6. LDS: There are 3 kingdoms of Heaven. TC: There is only Heaven or Hell.

I realize that my opinion of Traditional Christianity is likely flawed. Please comment according to individual understanding.

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

I suppose that as questions or explanations arise some of the nuances might be challenged, but you seem to have a good grasp on this. You've clearly explained LDS beliefs and the TC differences--granted from an LDS perspective. Yet, I find nothing in the OP that I would necessarily disagree with.

The following might be more additions and explanations:

2. Many TC believe that Jesus retains his physical body. So, while the Trinity is a single spiritual entity, the Son is the person of the Godhead who has a glorified human body.

3. Many TC would speculate that since God is all-knowing, then the idea of us pre-existed eternally. My thought here is still quite different than the LDS idea of eternal pre-existence as an intelligence.

6. Many TC believe that within the one heavenly kingdom there are differing responsibilities and "levels." We would be loathe to think of that in any kind of "capitalistic" sense though.

[MrShorty]

A few thoughts of my own:

1. I must admit that, since I learned about the differences between modalism and trinitarianism, I sometimes struggle to really grasp the difference between trinitarianism and the LDS Godhead. I note that this

TC: There are 3 persons that are one G-d.

sounds an awful lot like D&C 20:28

Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God

It sometimes seems to me that the differences between TC and LDS are more in points like number 2 trying to describe the nature of God than in whatever statement of "three in one" that is put forth.

4. Is this one a fair comparison? After point 3, it seems like a moot point. It also seems that we as LDS, also believe that man must be taught in some fashion about God after birth, as we will not automatically come to a knowledge of the Gospel on our own. As far as I know, there are no examples of any person coming to a knowledge of the Gospel without angels, prophets, scriptures, teachers, etc. to teach him/her. We sometimes romanticize the process as "echoes from eternity" or "being reminded of something we once knew", but there is still an underlying necessity for man to be taught the Gospel.

6. I sometimes find it interesting that we LDS tend to classify the telestial as a level of "heaven." In D&C 76, the telestial is described as "those who are thrust down to hell" (D&C 76:84). I sometimes wonder if we would get a more "favorable" comparison to TC if we described it as 2 levels of hell (one level for those who fail to gain a testimony of Christ D&C 76:82 and another level for those who deny the Holy Ghost) and two levels of heaven (terrestrial for those who receive a testimony of Jesus but are not valiant in that testimony D&C 76:79 -- celestial for those who receive that testimony and are valiant).

[Traveler]

I suppose that as questions or explanations arise some of the nuances might be challenged, but you seem to have a good grasp on this. You've clearly explained LDS beliefs and the TC differences--granted from an LDS perspective. Yet, I find nothing in the OP that I would necessarily disagree with.

The following might be more additions and explanations:

2. Many TC believe that Jesus retains his physical body. So, while the Trinity is a single spiritual entity, the Son is the person of the Godhead who has a glorified human body.

3. Many TC would speculate that since God is all-knowing, then the idea of us pre-existed eternally. My thought here is still quite different than the LDS idea of eternal pre-existence as an intelligence.

6. Many TC believe that within the one heavenly kingdom there are differing responsibilities and "levels." We would be loathe to think of that in any kind of "capitalistic" sense though.

Thank you for your input. I am thinking at some future time we may take ideas of interest and drill down on the concepts and related scriptures. I was kind of hoping you would add some concepts related to salvation by grace and even perhaps add ordinances. Perhaps like temples and eternal marriage - So I will add the following:

7: LDS: Temples - worship and ordinances. LDS teach that to be one with G-d one must enter into covenants of the "Priesthood" in the Temples of G-d and remain loyal to those covenants.

TC: Teach that Temple ordinances and worship was a part of the Old Testament and Law of Moses that is fulfilled by Christ and no longer acceptable worship or useful ordinances.

8. LDS: Marriage - LDS teach that marriage is ordained of G-d, an eternal union and intended for all G-ds children. That marriage is necessary to please G-d and fulfill G-ds intended purpose for men and women.

TC: Teach that marriage is good for men and women but not necessary to please G-d and is a union and relationship that exist only while living a mortal life.

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

A discussion of priesthood and covenants will be problematic. These teachings are not unified in the in "TC" camp. Catholic teaching, for example, would be much closer to the LDS idea. Evangelicals tend to embrace "the priesthood of all believers" doctrine, and believe our primary calls are devotion to God (prayer, Bible study, 'disclipines' like fasting, etc.), witnessing to unbelievers, and holiness. We see those serving as clergy simply as full-time support personnel--charged with equipping to saints. In a sense, evangelical clergy are like a cadre of spiritual coaches.

On the matter of eternal marriage, most TC believe that in Heaven our love for our fellow Christians will be far superior to our current love for our spouses. That, having drunk in the love of the Father, we will no longer be bound by the need for exclusive love relationships. We take this from the passage in which Jesus says that in heaven we will neither marry nor be given in marriage.

The LDS teaching on this subject is obviously attractive to many. It promises to enhance our current relationships exponentially--something much easier to relate to than a theoretical transformation into beings that no longer require such for fulfillment.

[AnthonyB]

I think the most defining difference from which many of the other difference flow from, is that LDS see God and man as one species, whereas TC's see God as a diety and man as his creation.

[prisonchaplain]

Another defining one is whether Adam and Eve's disobedience in the garden was a noble act of sacrifice that allowed us our agency (LDS), or an act of rebellion--an attempt to escape from God (TC).

[Maureen]

8. Christ's Atonement - LDS believe that because of Christ's atonement, all people will be resurrected but only those who obey the gospel will have eternal life in God's presence. TC believe that those who have genuine faith in Jesus as their Saviour will have eternal life with God. (To add that extra nuance, genuine faith produces an actual change in the person, whereby he/she has a desire to produce good fruit.)

[AnthonyB]

7: LDS: Temples - worship and ordinances. LDS teach that to be one with G-d one must enter into covenants of the "Priesthood" in the Temples of G-d and remain loyal to those covenants.

TC: Teach that Temple ordinances and worship was a part of the Old Testament and Law of Moses that is fulfilled by Christ and no longer acceptable worship or useful ordinances.

Although we don't think of it LDS terms, TC's do believe in temple worship and having a high priest. Jesus is our high priest interceding for us, a perfect, infalliable always reliable and effective high priest. He is our prophet, seer and revelator. One that anyone of us can approach at any time and for any need.

We don't have temples on earth but we have a temple in heaven that we all have access to. When we worship in a spiritual sense we are partaking in the temple worship that is in heaven. It is as if God has removed the veil between our chapel and the heavenly temple where he is.

[Traveler]

There have been some very interesting responses. It appears that for the most part the differences are not really in doctrine but in interpretations and applications of doctrine. I must say this is not at all what I expected. Is there any particular application that anyone would like to drill down on to make specific comparisons?

The Traveler

[Guest]

1. LDS: There are 3 distinct G-ds that comprise the G-dhead. TC: There are 3 persons that are one G-d.

A few thoughts of my own:

1. I must admit that, since I learned about the differences between modalism and trinitarianism, I sometimes struggle to really grasp the difference between trinitarianism and the LDS Godhead. I note that this sounds an awful lot like D&C 20:28 It sometimes seems to me that the differences between TC and LDS are more in points like number 2 trying to describe the nature of God than in whatever statement of "three in one" that is put forth.

I agree with MrShorty. The first page (or is it the second page) of the Book of Mormon clearly states that we believe in ONE GOD. Not three Gods under one Godhead. So, #1 does not serve a purpose except to muddy the waters. It is better if we change #1 to say - LDS believes God is of the same substance as Man whereas TC believes that God is a different substance than Man.

Let me expound on that a bit:

In my opinion, #1 as stated in the OP is not a difference between LDS and TC. The difference is in the substance of what we call God. In LDS belief, there are 3 PERSONS in one GOD using God as a word that describes something that has Godly (note the capital G) qualities (in the same manner that we use the word Prophet to refer to Pres. Monson - combining his substance with his office). When that word God is used in TC, it refers to this we-don't-know-what substance that has all the Godly qualities. If we super-impose the LDS answer to what substance God is to the "we-don't-know-what-substance" of TC then they are exactly the same. Because, there ARE 3 persons in One God in both beliefs. So, the difference is - TC may not know what substance God is but they believe it is not Man (neither spiritual, mortal, nor resurrected Man) .

Edited July 19, 2013 by anatess

[pam]

I will start: (LDS stands for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints

Correction: LDS stands for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We have been counseled to ensure that when presenting the entire name we are doing so correctly.

[Traveler]

I agree with MrShorty. The first page (or is it the second page) of the Book of Mormon clearly states that we believe in ONE GOD. Not three Gods under one Godhead. So, #1 does not serve a purpose except to muddy the waters. It is better if we change #1 to say - LDS believes God is of the same substance as Man whereas TC believes that God is a different substance than Man.

Let me expound on that a bit:

In my opinion, #1 as stated in the OP is not a difference between LDS and TC. The difference is in the substance of what we call God. In LDS belief, there are 3 PERSONS in one GOD using God as a word that describes something that has Godly (note the capital G) qualities (in the same manner that we use the word Prophet to refer to Pres. Monson - combining his substance with his office). When that word God is used in TC, it refers to this we-don't-know-what substance that has all the Godly qualities. If we super-impose the LDS answer to what substance God is to the "we-don't-know-what-substance" of TC then they are exactly the same. Because, there ARE 3 persons in One God in both beliefs. So, the difference is - TC may not know what substance God is but they believe it is not Man (neither spiritual, mortal, nor resurrected Man) .

This is both interesting and quite confusing to me. First, I must admit to a particular prejudice that I have concerning the doctrine of the Trinity. In essence, for me, those that purport the doctrine of the Trinity in religious circles remind me of proponents of String Theory in the scientific community. This is because to me neither is an effort to apply known principles and derive consistent conclusions but rather an effort to create a theory that based in principles of rhetorical logic regardless of established reality. In essence the reverse of scientific theory in that the theory is defined first and then principles of the theory defined rhetorically - not according to observation but to maintain the theory.

To me modalism is very similar to the Trinity. Each trying to create a theory that meets the rhetorical criteria of the nature of G-d as interpreted (theorized) through a specific understanding (cultural based interpretation) of scripture that identifies a paradox formed from a singular unchanging G-d of plural variant manifestations. Which understanding comes from translations of inconsistent ancient texts form another place and time.

LDS concept of the G-dhead is not based in rhetorical logic and argument but on direct divine revelation given as a restoration the knowledge of truth that was anciently known when the sacred holy texts of scripture was divinely authorized. Thus there can be similarities as well as differences found and argued based on the rhetorical applications one applies to their particular brand of belief or understanding of G-d.

The Traveler