The sealed plates

[Just_A_Guy]

Just_A_Guy,

You really need to go back and read that post.

http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/54789-sealed-plates-2.html#post763457

I explained that they have a common understanding, a common belief in Joseph Smith.

My concern is not the division of the church by anyone person or group of people. I could careless about what they thought their capacity in the Church leadership was or could have been. They all had one thing in common - their beliefs in Mormonism originated with Joseph Smith.

Where does the Doctrine and Covenants originate: Joseph Smith.

Ah. Your reference to Rigdonites, Strangites, and the succession crisis threw me; but your subsequent explanation to Finrock clarifies your position.

So, are you saying the D&C is subordinate to the BoM and the Bible because it came from Smith? Or just that Smith's later teachings (and those of his successors) are subordinate to those three canonized books of scripture?

[Speakzeasy]

Just_A_Guy

you saying the D&C is subordinate to the BoM and the Bible because it came from Smith?

Hmmmm. Not really.

Speakzeasy,

simply one who places more value on the teachings of Joseph Smith, Jr. than the Bible and/or Book of Mormon.

Should they not at least be treated as equal?

As equals they can be compared to each other for their own value.

[Finrock]

Just_A_Guy

Hmmmm. Not really.

Speakzeasy,

Should they not at least be treated as equal?

As equals they can be compared to each other for their own value.

Thank you for the clarification. I have been reading the PDF you produced. Thank you. I had not read that before and I learned a lot. When im at my computer Ill share some more thoughts on that.

But, for now, can you give me an example of what you mean. When I apply what you define what you say on myself I dont see myself placing more value. Perhaps this is because I am ignorant and cant see.

Regards,

Finrock

[Guest]

one who places more value on the teachings of Joseph Smith, Jr. than the Bible and/or Book of Mormon

I have never known anyone like this. Honestly, I haven't.

[Just_A_Guy]

I rather wonder how someone could make a statement like that without having concluded that there is a palpable difference between the teachings of Smith versus the teachings of the Bible/BoM; and I share Finrock's desire to see some specific examples.

[ElectofGod]

I have never known anyone like this. Honestly, I haven't.

Than your one of the few. I know dozens of members.

[Speakzeasy]

Hmmmm.

Lets see if I can place the idea of what I have termed "Smithite Mormonism" in to some context. The idea is narrow in terms and broad in it scope.

Members of the Church will usually follow the understanding of the Gospel as it is based on some General Authorities point of view. Bruce R. McConkie comes to mind as an example of how General Authorities have an anwser to a subject. We place more value on what is in the Doctrine and Covenants then what is in the Bible or Book of Mormon. As if some how Joseph had the answers to subjects that are written about in those books.

The individuals inspiration to answers on questions of doctrine are lost in the final word of those perceived by the individual to know more then the individual thinks he/she can be inspired to understand.

In the end we simply come to the conclusion that the answers to Gospel questions are answered by agreeing with the other guy. We do not learn the answer for ourselves, we do not need to, the other guy has the answer.

When somebody comes up and mentions something that is contrary to what we believe, we fend them off. It has been noted on this thread the concerns of some that somehow I will post contrary to the terms set forth in agreement to post on the forum. Contrary as to what guidelines. The Church is the people, not an organization. The Church is the assambly of a group of people who agree on a subject. If the Church is then a group of people, then the guidelines of disagreement applies to what? What is there to post against?

Without the people there is no Church, rules cannot be applied. Whose guidelines do we follow, and why?

Can we reach beyond the the teachings of the Church and still maintain the core values that are set forth by it without loosing an understanding of the Gospel itself?

This is a short answer. It has more complexity beyond this. Hope the idea is set forth.

These concepts cannot be applied individually, more collectively. Separating the individual from the collective is not an easy task.

Edited July 28, 2013 by Speakzeasy

[Just_A_Guy]

Speakzeasy, I certainly agree with you that it's problematic to allow oneself to be spoon-fed doctrine without further questioning and evaluation, whatever the source.

On the other hand: certain sources, and even certain scriptures, are inevitably going to be more applicable than others to a certain set of circumstances. The D&C is not per se superior to the Bible and Book of Mormon--but neither is it inferior to them just because it originated with Smith. Canon is canon, and I think it would be a bit silly to hold some part of it in contempt just because that particular part happens to be extraordinarily lucid.

Moreover, even accounting for variance of opinion on certain tenets; some teachings are just out-and-out wrong; and attempts to promulgate those things constitute naked apostasy. I know it galls some people, but God really did leave a set of people on this earth with the spiritual authority to call a spade a spade.

And this attempt to distinguish between the Church as an institution versus the Church as a collection of people, comes off as somewhat artificial. This site's Terms of Conduct say "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints", and I think you know very well what that means. Even if we take a more nuanced definition, the Church is still the collection of people who belong to an institution led by divinely appointed priesthood authority. Someone can split hairs and rationalize all they want--we know spiritual porn when we see it.

[Speakzeasy]

Just_A_Guy

God really did leave a set of people on this earth with the spiritual authority to call a spade a spade

I agree. There is no reason to believe that people are not put in charge to make decisions and take responsibility for those decisions. And yes, there must be a common subject of agreement between individuals to bring them together.

Losing the individual is the sad part of any story. The only truth in life is the relationship between myself and God. When it comes to the day of judgement I will stand before God on my own behalf. No attorney will be present, just me before God. How do I explain to him that I spent my life believing that somebody else had (all) the answers to the questions about the eternal life that he offers?

Where is the conviction I should have in my understanding of him as my God and my Savior? If we excuse ourselfs in the idea that others can fill in the gaps of our understanding, do we quit searching? The relationship between God and man is not localized to the individual. As an example Prophecies are of a larger story relating to God dealing with man through the ages. Everyone of us have access to them.

Are we responsible to understand the prophecies as individuals. Of course we are given responsiblity to understand them, or they would be given to somebody else. I am responsible to understand as much of the Gospel of Jesus as I can in my life time. I cannot delegate that responsibility to another person. I am accountable to learn and live to best of my understanding of the Gospel in relationship with God, prayerfully through scripture. Not somebody elses understanding.

I agree that the Book of Mormon is brought forth by the inspiration of God at the hands Joseph Smith, Jr. However, I am responsible for my understanding (or lack of understanding) of the contents before God. Nobody else is going to step in on my behalf on the day of judgement and say 'I am to blame, not him.'

If God does not hold me accountable for those things that I am responsible for why provide Scripture for instruction? Prophecy is a part of the instruction. We as indviduals will be held accountable for not understanding those events as well. They are given to us for a reason. If they were not given to us we could not be held accountable to understand them.

When a belief is lost in an organization, is it still a belief in God? Where is the conviction of the Individual that God is an individual God? A testimony of Joseph amounts to an acknowledgment that the Book of Mormon was brought forth at his hands. And this is a fact. It is not a testament to the fact that God is my personal God. Nor that Jesus Christ is our Savior.

If we claim Jesus as our Savior then why are we not involved more personally with his teaching. We think somebody else has the answers. How can that be personal?

We are dismissive of the Bible. In as far as it is correct, we want to except it. Sad, truely, Sad. The Bible has so much to offer. More then it is being given credit for by those who hold without question to the validity of the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price. It is to bad that scripture as a whole cannot be valued as equal. Then can ones progress be made in understanding.

However, to place somebody elses understanding over another is favoritism toward something. Favoritism is a great block to understanding. Sad.

You can point and call it "spiritual porn" all you wish. I can do nothing about what anyone else believes. As for me I continue to grow in understanding. This in fact is what my life is about for now and I hope for the rest of my life. I know you will say the same. What direction is your understanding taking you? And are you sure of that direction.

Edited July 28, 2013 by Speakzeasy

[Just_A_Guy]

When a belief is lost in an organization, is it still a belief in God? Where is the conviction of the Individual that God is an individual God?

Is your position that within the LDS Church, belief in the institution has largely superseded belief in God and/or that the institution itself is encouraging this substitution?

If we claim Jesus as our Savior then why are we not involved more personally with his teaching. We think somebody else has the answers.

What "we"? Not me and, by your professions, not you.

So, who's "we"?

We are dismissive of the Bible. In as far as it is correct, we want to except it.

Again--who's "we"? Recent surveys indicate that Mormons know their Bible as well as, if not better than, the members of nearly every other Christian denomination that participated in the survey.

However, to place somebody elses understanding over another is favoritism toward something.

Pot, meet kettle.

You can point and call it "spiritual porn" all you wish.

Good. I will. Both conventional porn and spiritual porn promise shortcuts to some form of gratification. Conventional porn tells you a spouse, or even a live partner, is unnecessary. Spiritual porn tells you that the Church and modern-day prophets are unnecessary.

They are Satanic lies, both of them.

[Seminarysnoozer]

The only truth in life is the relationship between myself and God. When it comes to the day of judgement I will stand before God on my own behalf.

If you are by yourself on that day, you are in trouble. Christ intercedes for us.

Also, your relationship with others is extremely important and will most definitely come up on that day.

Matthew 22; " 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."

Matthew 25; " 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or thirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

The Kingdom of God is established in its relationships, one with another. There is a place that is prepared for those who prefer few relationships, likened to the stars, separated one from another. Christ prayed that we would be one with another. We most certainly will be judged on our desire to be one with others and love them as our self. That is part of the test we face here. Family is the starting point for those types of relationships and then it grows from there.

[estradling75]

Hmmmm.

Lets see if I can place the idea of what I have termed "Smithite Mormonism" in to some context. The idea is narrow in terms and broad in it scope.

Members of the Church will usually follow the understanding of the Gospel as it is based on some General Authorities point of view. Bruce R. McConkie comes to mind as an example of how General Authorities have an anwser to a subject. We place more value on what is in the Doctrine and Covenants then what is in the Bible or Book of Mormon. As if some how Joseph had the answers to subjects that are written about in those books.

The individuals inspiration to answers on questions of doctrine are lost in the final word of those perceived by the individual to know more then the individual thinks he/she can be inspired to understand.

I see a serious flaw to your position.

Any truly called prophet, apostle, and/or spiritual leader... are called by God to lead us back to him. Its a call to teach us to pray always, to read the scriptures constantly, and to seek after Christ. Thus if we are truly following God's chosen leader then we are going to get pointed right to Christ and get that understanding.

The problem isn't in following the leaders... The problem is that we don't follow them nearly enough. We try to pick and choose some teaching over another. We try to take one statement and use to to justify doing whatever we want instead of they are really telling us. Or we try to use their weakness to justify not doing what they are trying to teach.

These God chosen leaders know this and they are constantly trying to get us to see and accept the truth of what we need to be doing. (see every General Conference)

The problem isn't with the Leaders or with how the church is set up or run. The problem is more fundamental.. Each and every person has to make the choice to truly follow and not just do what they like. All the church or any other individual can to is to try to help them reach that point.

Thus if people only want to follow part of what Joseph Smith taught, or part of what any other leader taught they are going to fall short.

[Finrock]

Speakzeasy,

Thanks for taking the time to lay out your position.

As I mentioned earlier, I read the document you provided. I'll share some of my thoughts.

I could see the issue of men who received authority but then felt that they were an authority to themselves. Pride and ego caused the succession crisis. Each person who sought to claim they were the chosen prophet outside of the way set up by God through His actual prophet did so ultimately out of a desire for power and/or position or to gratify their lustful desires. The Rigdonites and Strangites were definately offshoots of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The succession crisis showed me why God desires so much a peole who are firm and steadfast in the gospel. It made me think of my own instability and how I wish I could be some one the Lord could depend on no matter what.

I am grateful to Brigham Young. I am grateful to the faith of most of the apostles during that time even though some fell away. I am also grateful to the faith of most of the members of the Church at that time. Surely the members had to exercise great faith when you consider that most members did not have access to all of the doctrine and information that the apostles had access to. The Church as a whole had learned to trust the apostles because the apostles had proven themselves trustworthy since soon after the Church was restored. I loved the account of when James Strang attempted to gain support to his claims of being a prophet by not presenting his claims and proofs to the general church assembly but rather by presenting it at a conference in Florence Michigan. At this conference the presiding elder, Crandall Dunn, would have none of Strang's claims and pointed out how a letter Strang was using as proof for his claims was fraudulent. Imagine the consequences had Crandall Dunn not remained close to the Spirit and loyal to God's Church? God bless Crandall Dunn!

I also thought it was wonderful how God established a clear method during this time of crisis for us to know who the next prophet is in the future while at the same time pruning from the Church the imposters and those who were seeking for power and position rather than God's glory. Since the first crisis, there has not been a repeat. Because the senior apostle automatically becomes the new president of the Church, the Church and its members have been kept safe from the weaknesses and foibles of men.

Regards,

Finrock

[ElectofGod]

Speakzeasy,

Thanks for taking the time to lay out your position.

As I mentioned earlier, I read the document you provided. I'll share some of my thoughts.

I could see the issue of men who received authority but then felt that they were an authority to themselves. Pride and ego caused the succession crisis. Each person who sought to claim they were the chosen prophet outside of the way set up by God through His actual prophet did so ultimately out of a desire for power and/or position or to gratify their lustful desires. The Rigdonites and Strangites were definately offshoots of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The succession crisis showed me why God desires so much a peole who are firm and steadfast in the gospel. It made me think of my own instability and how I wish I could be some one the Lord could depend on no matter what.

Adding to this. There are those who do not seek p ower or postion to gratify their own lustful desires. Likewise, God wants someone that lives up to their responsibilities, blessings, and requirements for what their callings entail.

I am grateful to Brigham Young. I am grateful to the faith of most of the apostles during that time even though some fell away. I am also grateful to the faith of most of the members of the Church at that time. Surely the members had to exercise great faith when you consider that most members did not have access to all of the doctrine and information that the apostles had access to. The Church as a whole had learned to trust the apostles because the apostles had proven themselves trustworthy since soon after the Church was restored.

Except the 6 who eventually fell away. The interesting thing now a days, things are so relaxed with persecution, beliefs, manuals, etc... That even if it occured today it would be very hard to separate who's who without the spirit of discernment. Likewise if anyone even tries to claim one has (especially when they have their own mote) they will be either ex'd or called apostate. The lack of persecution brings an inability to separate the tares and wheat. Only brings a false sense of Security. (2 Nephi 28)

I also thought it was wonderful how God established a clear method during this time of crisis for us to know who the next prophet is in the future while at the same time pruning from the Church the imposters and those who were seeking for power and position rather than God's glory. Since the first crisis, there has not been a repeat.

Was this revelation by God or was it just the natural course of the church? Interesting thing I have not considered.

Regards,

Finrock

Anytime someone seeks for that power they lose authority and the priesthood is gone. They don't have it. Likewise with the church members, anytime they exercise unrighteous dominion "amen to the authority of that amen" and are "left to kick against the pricks" amongst them-self. So they may perform any ordinance they want, but they do so without authority. Its a serious issue for both sides of the coin.

Because the senior apostle automatically becomes the new president of the Church, the Church and its members have been kept safe from the weaknesses and foibles of men.

We are not anymore safe than if it was done any other way. Except the fact we cannot choose a prophet based off "righteousness" but instead "seniority". I think it would be worthwhile to ponder this quote. I may have quoted it before.

Orson Pratt, JD 25:145-146 wrote:"This failure to realize all the blessings and powers of the Priesthood does not apply to the elders and lesser Priesthood only; but it applies to the higher quorums, and comes home to ourselves, who are Apostles of Jesus Christ. We are presented before the Church, and sustained as prophets, seers and revelators, and we have received oftentimes the gift of prophecy and revelation, and have received many great and glorious gifts.

But have we received the fullness of the blessings to which we are entitled? No, we have not. Who, among the Apostles have become seers, and enjoy all the gifts and powers pertaining to that calling? And those who are called to perform special missions in opening up dispensations of the Gospel to the children of men, as Joseph and others were called of the Lord, He endows more fully with these gifts; but this does not hinder others from enjoying similar gifts according to His promises, and according to our faithfulness. And I have thought the reason why we have not enjoyed these gifts more fully is, because we have not sought for them as diligently as we ought.

I speak for one, I have not sought as diligently as I might have done. More than forty years have passed away since these promises were made. I have been blessed with some revelations and prophecies, and with dreams of things that have come to pass; but as to seeing things as a seer, and beholding heavenly things in open vision, I have not attained to these things. And who is to blame for this? Not the Lord; not brother Joseph—they are not to blame. And so it is with the promises made to you in your confirmations and endowments, and by the patriarchs, in your patriarchal blessings; we do not live up to our privileges as saints of God and elders of Israel; for though we receive many blessings that are promised to us, we do not receive them in their fullness, because we do not seek for them as diligently and faithfully as we should."

Now consider three terms.

Prophet

Revelator

Seer.

A Seer is also a revelator and prophet but that does not mean a prophet is also a seer and revelator.

Don't we want a revelator not just a prophet or a seer? Orson Pratt was a very humble man and acknowledge what he lacked in. There are more severe quotes by others but this quote gets the point across. Likewise it shows we can sustain them all we want but it does nothing for their ability to connect to heaven. All we can do is pray for them that they can live up to their privileges. Which we should do. It really reminds me of Uchdorfts talk, "living beneath our privileges".

Edited July 31, 2013 by ElectofGod

[Just_A_Guy]

Some additional thoughts, from the Teachings of the Presidents of the Church - Joseph Smith manual, with original cites provided in the link:

Orson Hyde, a member of the Quorum of the Twelve, reported: “Joseph the Prophet … said, ‘Brethren, remember that the majority of this people will never go astray; and as long as you keep with the majority you are sure to enter the celestial kingdom.’ ”

William G. Nelson reported: “I have heard the Prophet speak in public on many occasions. In one meeting I heard him say: ‘I will give you a key that will never rust,—if you will stay with the majority of the Twelve Apostles, and the records of the Church, you will never be led astray.’ The history of the Church has proven this to be true.”

Ezra T. Clark remembered: “I heard the Prophet Joseph say that he would give the Saints a key whereby they would never be led away or deceived, and that was: The Lord would never suffer a majority of this people to be led away or deceived by imposters, nor would He allow the records of this Church to fall into the hands of the enemy."

Also, and incidentally: I'm not sure we can say that the pattern of the senior apostle becoming the new President of the Church was die-cast from the moment the Church opted for the leadership of the Twelve over Rigdon. Young's and Taylor's deaths were each followed by a years-long period called an "apostolic interregnum" before the first presidency was re-constituted. During the second apostolic interregnum, there was some concern about Wilford Woodruff's taking the helm of the Church because he was seen as being too close to George Q. Cannon, whom a number of the Twelve mistrusted. (Taylor died on the lam, more or less; and Cannon was his primary connection to the rest of the Church. It seems Cannon didn't do a particularly good job of keeping the Twelve in the loop--when Taylor's death was announced, many of them hadn't even known the prophet was ill.)

When Woodruff died, the Lord appeared to Lorenzo Snow in the Salt Lake Temple and instructed Snow to re-form the first presidency immediately. This corroborated advice to the same effect that Woodruff had given to Snow during his own lifetime.

Edited July 31, 2013 by Just_A_Guy

[ElectofGod]

I have read those before.

2Ne 28:14 They wear stiff necks and high heads; yea, and because of pride, and wickedness, and abominations, and whoredoms, they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.

Remind you of the endowment? Who is doing the teaching? Why are we taught by the precepts of men? Who "leads" us? How does this relate to what those quotes state?

[Finrock]

I am not sure I have yet to fully understand what the point of the Smithite Mormon line of reasoning is or what is its logical conclusion. I will say this, however. I will not jump on to a bandwagon that is advocating that the apostles are somehow not fulfilling their callings and that they need to be corrected somehow by the members of the Church.

Also, I reject any notion that would claim that any person can exercise priesthood authority independent of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or independent of the presiding authority on the earth. But to keep it simple here, the president of the Church has the keys of the priesthood. If we exercise priesthood it is because the President of the Church has authorized it.

Article of Faith:

"We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.”

We have no priesthood authority in and of ourselves and it is not our place to pretend to be able to counsel and correct the apostles.

The leading fact to be remembered is that the Priesthood is greater than any of its offices; and that any man holding the Melchizedek Priesthood may, by virtue of its possession, perform any ordinance pertaining thereto, or connected therewith, when called upon to do so by one holding the proper authority, which proper authority is vested in the President of the Church, or in any whom he may designate. Every officer in the Church is under his direction, and he is directed of God. He is also selected of the Lord to be the head of the Church, and so becomes, when the Priesthood of the Church (which includes its officers and its members), shall have so accepted and upheld him.

I will give you one of the Keys of the mysteries of the Kingdom. It is an eternal principle, that has existed with God from all eternity: That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives.

I will give you a key which Brother Joseph Smith used to give in Nauvoo. He said that the very step of apostasy commenced with losing confidence in the leaders of this church and kingdom, and that whenever you discerned that spirit you might know that it would lead the possessor of it on the road to apostasy.

When the Lord gave the keys of the kingdom of God, the keys of the Melchizedek Priesthood, of the apostleship, and sealed them upon the head of Joseph Smith, He sealed them upon his head to stay here upon the earth until the coming of the Son of Man. Well might Brigham Young say, ‘The keys of the kingdom of God are here.’ They were with him to the day of his death. They then rested upon the head of another man—President John Taylor. He held those keys to the hour of his death. They then fell by turn, or in the providence of God, upon Wilford Woodruff.

I say to the Latter-day Saints the keys of the kingdom of God are here, and they are going to stay here, too, until the coming of the Son of Man. Let all Israel understand that. They may not rest upon my head but a short time, but they will then rest on the head of another apostle, and another after him, and so continue until the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ in the clouds of heaven.

I want to say to my brethren and sisters that [the President of the Church] is our leader, he is our law-giver in the Church and Kingdom of God. He is called to this office; it is his prerogative to tell this people what to do, and it is our duty to obey the counsel that he has given to-day to the sisters and the brethren. We, as a people, should not treat lightly this counsel, for I will tell you in the name of the Lord, and I have watched it from the time I became a member of this Church, there is no man who undertakes to run counter to the counsel of the legally authorized leader of this people that ever prospers, and no such man ever will prosper.

If God has anything to reveal, he will reveal it to that man who stands at the head. … There is no other plan, no other system by which to guide and govern men in this kingdom, only that which has been established by the revelations of God in the order of His church and kingdom, and that is for the head to lead, counsel and govern in all dispensations in which the will of God is revealed to man.

God has established all things in their order. The house of God is a house of order, and not a house of confusion. In this house God himself is the Supreme Head, and he must be obeyed. Christ is in the image and likeness of his being, his Only Begotten Son, and he stands as our Savior and our God. … Next unto God and Christ, on the earth is placed one unto whom the keys of power and the authority of the holy Priesthood are conferred, and unto whom the right of presidency is given. He is God’s mouthpiece to his people, in all things pertaining to the building up of Zion and to the spiritual and temporal salvation of the people.

I will follow and stay with the President of the Church until death because the Spirit has testified to me that I should and that is where my faith rests.

Regards,

Finrock

[ElectofGod]

I still think you guys are misunderstanding what was being said. If anyone wants to know read 2 Nephi 28 and Isaiah with some Avraham commentary. I won't post it.

I too have been told to stay with the church and that is were the spirit wants me to be. After all the Book of mormon is the word of God,Joseph Smith is a prophet of God and the Lord is going to extend his hand to members of the church to build up Zion.

[Finrock]

I still think you guys are misunderstanding what was being said.

I know I do not fully understand what is being said. To clarify, my comment wasn't meant to accuse anyone of apostasizing.

Lets call the paragraph below X:

When I read what I read, it feels like to me like there is a hint of suggesting that perhaps the Apostles aren't living up to what they ought to be doing and that perhaps there is another person or persons we can look to as the head of the Church on earth. I was more making clear that if the logical conclusion to this Smithite Mormonism line of reasoning equates to me ultimately finding fault with the Apostles or any notion that would have me look to someone other than the President of the Church as the head of the Church of Christ on earth, then I will not go there.

Right now I just feel like what is being said is not being said, but rather it is being implied and I am uncomfortable with the implication. In sincerity, if what is being said does NOT equal X (see above), then until I know better I am open to understanding what is being said. I want to know all truth and if it is true then I will accept it.

Sincerely,

Finrock

[Finrock]

I will also say this. I believe that one cannot have a testimony of Jesus Christ without having the spirit of prophecy. I also believe that once a person has a testimony of Jesus Christ, they need not wait for the Apostles to direct them to go out and testify and invite people to come to Christ and to repent and to be baptized. We should be anxiously engaged in doing good. We can learn and know for ourselves all of the truths of the gospel. In fact, I believe we can receive personal and private revelation about matters that perhaps the apostles have not received. But, I am never in a position to find fault with the Church supposing that I am more righteous and can therefore proceed to counsel and correct the apostles. Apostles can correct themselves. Apostles can tell other apostles that they aren't living up to their potential.

The pattern I have seen is that God is no fool. He knows what goes on. He uses men and women on this earth to direct His work and allows them to stumble through it with weaknesses and all, but yet, somehow, God's work moves forward. Joseph Smith received many revelations before he ever spoke about them or revealed them to the Church. We are counseled to not reveal certain truths until people are ready to receive it else it might strangle their faith and destroy their confidence.

Regards,

Finrock

[ElectofGod]

I was about to post this than your second post popped up. Absolutely. As Joseph Smith said "we should pray for the presiding elder". If we are truly Christlike we won't seek to condemn others but pray for all (as your other thread seeing others as yourself) that WE ALL may all reach their divine potential.

------

I have been thinking about it. Maybe I tend to think what is being said when it snot really being said myself. I have my beliefs and htink that is what is being said, than you have yours and think something else is being said too. Maybe were both doing the same thing. Maybe I don't know what was being said either lol.

God hand is still in HIS church. He is watching out for us and extending his arms for us continually and all men. He will redeem Zion and he is using His church to prepare the people for it. It is a great test for us to overcome the tests that are presented to us inside and outside the church. He is fulfilling His purposes.

This is my feelings. Look at all the wo's in this chapter. Make a list and see who and why is he (God) is saying these things too.

2 Nephi 28:14 They wear stiff necks and high heads; yea, and because of pride, and wickedness, and abominations, and whoredoms, they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.

16 Wo unto them that turn aside the just for a thing of naught and revile against that which is good, and say that it is of no worth! For the day shall come that the Lord God will speedily visit the inhabitants of the earth; and in that day that they are fully ripe in iniquity they shall perish.

Why? Why are they fully ripe?

2 nephi 28:21 And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well—and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.

22 And behold, others he flattereth away, and telleth them there is no hell; and he saith unto them: I am no devil, for there is none—and thus he whispereth in their ears, until he grasps them with his awful chains, from whence there is no deliverance.

23 Yea, they are grasped with death, and hell; and death, and hell, and the devil, and all that have been seized therewith must stand before the throne of God, and be judged according to their works, from whence they must go into the place prepared for them, even a lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment.

24 Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!

25 Wo be unto him that crieth: All is well!

26 Yea, wo be unto him that hearkeneth unto the precepts of men, and denieth the power of God, and the gift of the Holy Ghost!

27 Yea, wo be unto him that saith: We have received, and we need no more!

28 And in fine, wo unto all those who tremble, and are angry because of the truth of God! For behold, he that is built upon the rock receiveth it with gladness; and he that is built upon a sandy foundation trembleth lest he shall fall.

29 Wo be unto him that shall say: We have received the word of God, and we need no more of the word of God, for we have enough!

31 Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.

32 Wo be unto the Gentiles, saith the Lord God of Hosts! For notwithstanding I shall lengthen out mine arm unto them from day to day, they will deny me; nevertheless, I will be merciful unto them, saith the Lord God, if they will repent and come unto me; for mine arm is lengthened out all the day long, saith the Lord God of Hosts.

I think there is a major difference between one who thinks all is not well in Zion than one who seeks to overthrow the kingdom of God. Who seeks out to condemn others and who seeks to make oneself "the new president".

The problem as shown in verse 31 is not others its OURSELVES. No matter the state of any other member, the test comes to US. Are we able to recognize and follow the holy spirit?

Edited August 2, 2013 by ElectofGod

[ElectofGod]

I will end this subject with this post. I think enough has been said in this thread.

"After a while the Gentiles will gather by the thousands to this place, and Salt Lake City will be classed among the wicked cities of the world. A spirit of speculation and extravagance will take possession of the Saints, and the results will be financial bondage." (I think we can check this off as having been fulfilled).

"Persecution comes next and all true Latter-day Saints will be tested to the limit. Many will apostatize and others will be still not knowing what to do...the Saints will be put to a test that will try the integrity of the best of them. The pressure will become so great that the more righteous among them will cry unto the Lord day and night until deliverance comes."

"the time is coming when we will be mixed up in these now peaceful valleys to that extent that it will be difficult to tell the face of a Saint from the face of an enemy against the people of God."

"Then is the time to look out for the great sieve, for there will be a great shifting time, and many will fall. For I say unto you there is a test, a Test, a TEST coming.

This Church has before it many close places through which it will have to pass before the work of God is crowned with glory. The difficulties will be of such a character that the man or woman who does not possess a personal knowledge or witness will fall. If you have not got this testimony, you must live right and call upon the Lord, and cease not until you obtain it.

Remember these sayings: The time will come when no man or woman will be able to endure on borrowed light. Each will have to be guided by the light within themselves. If you do not have the knowledge that Jesus is the Christ, how can you stand?" (Statement by Heber C. Kimball in Whitney, Orson F. Life of Heber C. Kimball. Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1979. 449-451)

I get the feeling this is happening right now in front of our very eyes. Only those who can recognize God's true servants will endure it through the power of the Holy Ghost.

[pam]

"After a while the Gentiles will gather by the thousands to this place, and Salt Lake City will be classed among the wicked cities of the world. A spirit of speculation and extravagance will take possession of the Saints, and the results will be financial bondage." (I think we can check this off as having been fulfilled).

How do you feel this has already been fulfilled? I'm also calling for references for this quote. You didn't give credit to it.

Edited August 3, 2013 by pam

[Just_A_Guy]

I get the feeling this is happening right now in front of our very eyes. Only those who can recognize God's true servants will endure it through the power of the Holy Ghost.

That isn't as hard of a test as some would like us to think that it is.

[ElectofGod]

That isn't as hard of a test as some would like us to think that it is.

Lord did not say many are called many are choosen. He said many are called FEW are choosen.

The Lord did not say the celestial kingdom would be as the stars in heaven. He said the telestial kingdom was as the stars in heaven.

Apparently it is VERY difficult. But I know thats not what you are alluding at as you think I am alluding at something entirely different.

76:98 And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world;

99 For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas.

100 These are they who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch;

101 But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant.

So they received the prophets yet it says they rejected the prophets.

Edited August 3, 2013 by ElectofGod