Preventing myself from having a testimony?

[andypg]

Sorry for the length.

Here's a little background: I grew up hard core Catholic (currently a Catholic Studies minor at my Jesuit university). The last few months, I've been going through severe depression, and what has gotten me out of it was a YouTube video on the plan of salvation. That caused me to attend a LDS Church service and have met with the missionaries three times.

It's come to the point where I am honestly considering converting because the faith has really helped me out of depression and I feel so much better.

That being said, I don't have a testimony that the Church is the true Church or of the Book of Mormon. Oddly enough though, I have a testimony that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God. But when the missionaries ask if I do believe that he is a prophet, I say that I'm leaning towards yes. Once I admit that I have a testimony of Joseph Smith, I need to believe that the the LDS Church is the true Church and I must believe in the Book of Mormon (but so far I have no testimony).

I am being noncommittal because part of me is afraid of converting. I have deep Catholic roots growing up and some Catholic beliefs are just so strong in me (the Trinity, God doesn't have a body). Though I really feel as if I belong in the LDS Church.

Can someone have a testimony of Joseph Smith but not of the Church and the BoM?

How can I overcome preventing myself from gaining a testimony of these things?

Is this weird?

Thanks and God bless.

[Praetorian_Brow]

Nope, its not weird. I still don't believe in this talk of absolute truth with regards to the church. Some people would say my testimony is rocky. The thought process is that the church is directed by God, so everything about it must be true, regardless of whether someone disagrees. I have asked myself time and time again, what is true about it and if every religion says that, why would we be any different in regards to hubris? That being said, I do find our version of events and the direction of our gospel to be a lot more fulfilling than other versions.

Yes, you can have a testimony about a single subject. Its assumed by man within the cultural setting of our religion that one must cover all points in order to have the ideal testimony.

Someone else will give you the much used adage about "precept upon precept" or "milk before bread", but really, if you have a solid background in Christianity, I have no doubt your new found perspective will merge with your background.

Edited July 27, 2013 by Eowyn
insulting and unnecessary

[Bini]

This is not weird or even unique. I think it's common for people to have uncertainties and questions when in the process of converting from one faith to another. Don't let those uncertainties or questions hinder your desire to learn more and seek answers. Having a testimony that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God is a significant step in having a testimony of the BOM and Gospel.

[andypg]

Thanks guys. I honestly don't want to join the Church until I have a testimony that it is the true Church and that the Book of Mormon is true. And those are the two things I have yet to pray about. Part of me doesn't want to know if they are true because I've come to the point where I know I am going to most likely convert but am scared and afraid to.

[Lakumi]

I don't have a testimony about anything, though I wasn't anything before, but I too feel confused and slightly afraid about everything, I do have some strange beliefs (like to me, its not that if the Book of Mormon is true, but the message it has)

during my atheist days, I wrote a sci fi novel and a fake religious gospel to go with it... good times I guess

[Quin]

1) so totally not weird.

2) God gave use these lovely (alright, grey, squidgy, and totally gross looking) brains to USE. Right now you're reconciling your faiths. For most of us, it isn't "instant testimony, just add water". For most of us we have to seriously question, apprise, requestion, reconcile, and actually seek to understand. Whatever the case may be.. Heck. That's just with a pretty girl, much less with something as infinite as the divine. (I have the symphony of science running through my head right now... "The beauty of a living thing are not the atoms that go into it, but the way those atoms are put together" - Carl Sagan)

2a) We all have different paths to understanding. There's a long running convert competition &/or joke about how nuts were drove "our" missionaries. I have a fond memory of almost driving mine to collective apoplexy... Because I have a deep sense of pity for John Smith (and prophets in general), as opposed to weeping awe. "Oh you poor thing" is apparently not the standard response. But it's mine. I feel profoundly sorry for our prophets. It's one of the very last things I would wish on anyone, even an enemy. Don't get me wrong, I'm grateful beyond words that we have them, and I love them... Which is why I feel so awful for them. Because instead of "merely" having to look out for themselves & their loved ones, they have to look out for what's right for EVERYONE. That is an unimaginable burden to me / it makes me hurt just thinking about it. Others view prophecy as beautiful/ a blessing/ an aspiration/ etc. My poor M's were far more used to tears of joy, and they instead got my "OH, the poor unlucky bloke." And yet, my testimony is as solid as basement rock. See? Different paths. Just in one tiny example.

2b) We all take different times. That's the whole "just add water" thing. Sometimes it really happens that way. A personal revelation so pure, instantaneous, and precise that its like diving into a icy water on a hot summer day. Other times, it's the breeze... So subtle we may not even notice it's effects at first.

3) Why do YOU think you're preventing yourself? You're inside your own mind, so you'd know best. Fear was one of mine. I didn't want to lose what I a,ready had. I was HAPPY with what I already had. I did NOT want to screw that up. As a matter of fact, I chose not to risk it... And got a bucket of water dumped on me on the freeway (personal revelation speaking) that left me sputtering and swearing at my Heavenly Father all the rest of the drive. He's used to that, by the by. I've had something of a playful relationship with HF my whole life. One of my best friends thinks my railing at God is hilarious... Becuase it's the opposite relationship she has. For her, it's an intricate and subtle thing. For me, the powers that be have to use a lead brick. Both approaches are perfect for both of US. They suit our love/fear/needs.If she'd have waited until God started throwing birds and buckets of water on her, she'd never have joined. If god had merely whispered at me, I'd have missed it over turning up my music louder.

So... I was looking up one of my favorite quotes ... Because I plum forgot the reference & found it in this article as the first google hit. Whole durn if applying to just what you were asking about.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2007/09/seek-learning-by-faith?lang=eng

Q

(Ha. And if you were worried about length, now feel free to snicker at how I do blather on You're FINE )

[andypg]

What's keeping me? I'd have to say that I still love Catholicism. I was raised in the Catholic Church my entire life (I'm even minoring in it). The Catholic Church jas a rich intellectual and spiritual history and part of me doesn't want to lose that. But I've never been as happy as I have been since I started investigating the LDS Church. That's why I think if I convert I may become a strange Latter-Day Catholic. When I speak theology, I feel like I speak in a "Catholic" language, EVEN when agreeing with the missionaries. It's weird.

I'm not going to be the perfect Mormon lol

[Guest]

What is the "perfect" Mormon? There's doctrine. . . that's important to gain a testimony of, over time. There's the Church itself, which is the vehicle for ordinances and such. . . also important but second in line. Then there's culture. You do not have to have a testimony of Mormon culture, or even live it. Keep the commandments, receive and keep your ordinances as you're ready, keep learning. That's it.

I imagine if I ever learned that Mormonism was false, I would have a very, very hard time letting go, having been brought up in the Church. It's what I know. You've been a strong Catholic, so it's not just about going somewhere else on Sunday, it's about changing a core part of your life.

I think that's why I had a faith crisis a few years ago. I realized that I needed to learn for myself whether this was the truth, or not, and not just continue going on what I was brought with and the faith of my parents. grandparents, etc. So I've focused more on my own experiences and testing the doctrines of the Gospel out. I've lived the principles and enjoyed the fruits. As I keep my covenants and renew them, or go to the temple and do proxy work and hear them over and over, I understand more firmly and more deeply what it is exactly that my parents, grandparents, etc. wanted me to have. It's not the culture. It's the doctrine, the ordinances, and the blessings that come from living those.

My point is, even though it has been protested here, we DO learn line upon line. But it takes being involved and seeking after truth continually. We have to do some of the work, too.

[skippy740]

What's keeping me? I'd have to say that I still love Catholicism. I was raised in the Catholic Church my entire life (I'm even minoring in it). The Catholic Church jas a rich intellectual and spiritual history and part of me doesn't want to lose that. But I've never been as happy as I have been since I started investigating the LDS Church. That's why I think if I convert I may become a strange Latter-Day Catholic. When I speak theology, I feel like I speak in a "Catholic" language, EVEN when agreeing with the missionaries. It's weird.

I'm not going to be the perfect Mormon lol

Who said you had to lose that?

There is a lot of richness and goodness in the religions around the world. I think it would be a shame for anyone to say "That's all junk; only this one is worth anything." I think it's preposterous. There is a lot of good, and we are encouraged to learn and bring all the good we can.

That said, there are some core tenants of a testimony and of being a member in good standing with the LDS church. We can see what they are by reviewing the questions in the baptismal interview.

http://www.lds.org/languages/additionalmanuals/preachgospel/PreachMyGospel___19_12_BaptismAndConfirmation__36617_eng_019.pdf

1. Do you believe that God is our Eternal Father? Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the Savior and Redeemer of the world?

2. Do you believe the Church and gospel of Jesus Christ have been restored through the

Prophet Joseph Smith? Do you believe that [current Church President] is a prophet of God?

What does this mean to you?

3. What does it mean to you to repent? Do you feel that you have repented of your past

transgressions?

4. Have you ever committed a serious crime? If so, are you now on probation or parole? Have you ever participated in an abortion? a homosexual relationship?

5. You have been taught that membership in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints includes living gospel standards. What do you understand of the following standards? Are you willing to obey them?

- The law of chastity, which prohibits any sexual relationship outside the bonds of a legal

marriage between a man and a woman.

- The law of tithing.

- The Word of Wisdom.

- The Sabbath day, including partaking of the sacrament weekly and rendering service to

fellow members.

6. When you are baptized, you covenant with God that you are willing to take upon yourself the name of Christ and keep His commandments throughout your life. Are you ready to make this covenant and strive to be faithful to it?

A 'yes' answer to any of those listed in #4 would require an interview from a member of the Mission Presidency.

However, you'll probably find that these are the basics and the building blocks of the minimal requirements to be a member of the LDS church in good standing. Everything else, you can learn over time.

I don't think any of these requirements would require you to give up any of the good you have previously learned.

[Quin]

I love the Catholic Church, too.

I spent my childhood in cathedrals, have taken mass in Rome on Easter, cheered the Jesuits, laughed through midnight catechism, sat struck dumb through Hymns that bind my heart & mind. I love the history, the smell of ancient varnished wood & leather, and bliss out to incense. I love confession, Latin, stained glass, and greeting those before and behind me.

I still wear my ST.MIchael medal. (All good things, and we certainly have the Archangels).

I still listen to Tallis & GRegorian.

About half my family is devout Irish Catholic. (I was not, although I loved the church my parents did not raise us in the church. My dad reached the 'take vows or leave' stage and left.

For ME, the Catholic Church is a memory. Everything HAS happened. The Savior died, and the story "ended".

I used to argue with my uncle all the time (and various other priests) about that. Why would GOd just walk away and leave us? Why did the story end? Why why why why... And was never satisfied with the answers. Why can't *I* talk to God? Why e intermediary? Why when Jesus said this do we do this entire different thing, instead? And then, of course, studying later about the misogynists who shaped church policy, the Pope who while in the best of intentions, to get people to stop assaulting prostitutes cast MAry MAgdalen as a prostitute to engender sympathy, the council which decided on the trinity and other affairs, the lost gospels. The, the, the, the.

The LDS church, though, picked up where the story unaccountably ended. Is not worshiping a past, but is a living church. Life over death. What can we do over what has been done. Living prophets, the living priesthood.

So for ME... The CC is a memory of what was, while the LDSC is an ongoing story of what is. I can still love it as a memory of what was, while living what is.

((Obviously these are jsut my own thoughts and feelings on the subject. I have no doubt many feel else wise))

[andypg]

Thanks, guys!

I heard a talk today where the speaker said that before Joseph Smith there wasn't this complete blackness. There was Truth and great spiritual contributions during this time. It was just spread out. Joseph Smith brought it all together. I hope to bring in some of the beauty and Truth I find in Catholicism to my life as a Latter-Day Saint!

And thanks to great podcasts from FAIR, I am closer than ever to a testimony of the BoM.

[dahlia]

You are not alone, OP. There are a few of us here who were Catholic, so we dig where you are coming from. I went to 12 yrs of Catholic school, a lot of it before Vatican II, so I was pretty much old school Catholic, Latin, Stations of the Cross, Novenas, and everything. I am grateful to the Catholic Church for my education and the basis of my moral background.

That said, with Mormonism, I am free. I don't need a priestly class to get between me and God. I can have revelation myself. I can read the Bible and BoM and discern for myself. I had the same feelings about Joseph Smith that you have. I also didn't have a problem with the First Vision because Catholics have plenty of instances of people seeing visions. If a peasant can see our Lady in Guadalupe, surely Joseph Smith can have a vision in New York.

I've been a convert for 2 years now and I still want to make the Sign of the Cross and wonder why LDS don't name their kids after saints. : ) Some things just don't go away, but it's OK.

[mordorbund]

I've been a convert for 2 years now and I still want to make the Sign of the Cross .... : ) Some things just don't go away, but it's OK.

So that's what Alma was talking about:

cross yourself in all these things; for except ye do this ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God. Oh, remember, and take it upon you, and cross yourself in these things.

*Spoiler alert: that's not what he means.

[Still_Small_Voice]

A knowledge of the LORD and His ways often come this way:

2 Nephi Chapter 28 verse 30:

For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more . . .