Question on the War in Heaven

[dimbulbz]

I was called on the carpet this Sunday in HP group for stating that the war in heaven was fought, not by God the Father, or By Jesus Christ (or the Holy Ghost for that matter), but was between The Sons of Adam and Satan and his hosts. To some this was radical and unheard of doctrine. The Bible Dictionary states quite clearly:

This term arises out of Rev. 12:7 and refers to the conflict that took place in the premortal existence among the spirit children of God. The war was primarily over how and in what manner the plan of salvation would be administered to the forthcoming human family upon the earth.

The scripture is clear that the war was led by Michael and his angels. No mention of the Godhead involved.

Would it really be much of a war if Elohim were involved? Wouldn't we basically refer to it as an instant smackdown?

I also know that The Father does refer to Lucifer as an enemy.. regarldless, I don't see The Father needing to do anything except express his will, and it would be done.

OK so, how picky is this? I do not think for a moment that the Father did not know about the brewing discontentment among a third of his children, nor of Satan's imminent rebellion (such would be out of line with our understanding of an all knowing Heavenly Father).

Just wondering if this was a point upon which my trip to the HP woodshed was well founded, or if it is clearly understood among most LDS people that God is all powerful and any attempt at sneaking in a good right hook on him is preposterous.

thoughts? - especially reliable sources on the War in Heaven would be appreciated.

[pam]

Well the one thing I want to correct is there wasn't a discontentment among a third of his children. It was among a third part of his children.

[james12]

I agree with some of your points. But consider verse eleven of the same chapter, "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death." Don't we also overcome Satan by the "blood of the Lamb"? Additionally, Heavenly Father is involved in our current war with Satan, I see no reason to think he was also not likewise involved in our first estate.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I was called on the carpet this Sunday in HP group for stating that the war in heaven was fought, not by God the Father, or By Jesus Christ (or the Holy Ghost for that matter), but was between The Sons of Adam and Satan and his hosts. To some this was radical and unheard of doctrine. The Bible Dictionary states quite clearly:

This term arises out of Rev. 12:7 and refers to the conflict that took place in the premortal existence among the spirit children of God. The war was primarily over how and in what manner the plan of salvation would be administered to the forthcoming human family upon the earth.

The scripture is clear that the war was led by Michael and his angels. No mention of the Godhead involved.

Would it really be much of a war if Elohim were involved? Wouldn't we basically refer to it as an instant smackdown?

I also know that The Father does refer to Lucifer as an enemy.. regarldless, I don't see The Father needing to do anything except express his will, and it would be done.

OK so, how picky is this? I do not think for a moment that the Father did not know about the brewing discontentment among a third of his children, nor of Satan's imminent rebellion (such would be out of line with our understanding of an all knowing Heavenly Father).

Just wondering if this was a point upon which my trip to the HP woodshed was well founded, or if it is clearly understood among most LDS people that God is all powerful and any attempt at sneaking in a good right hook on him is preposterous.

thoughts? - especially reliable sources on the War in Heaven would be appreciated.

The purpose of the First Estate test was to show our intellectual choice, given all information and knowledge as we were at that point mature spirits. Heavenly Father already made that choice a long time ago, He wouldn't have to face that intellectual "battle" again. However, Heavenly Father initiated the war the moment we were given moral agency. The agency and their associated consequences was given to us and we had to make a choice, the rewards and punishments associated with those laws are permanent and so the moral and intellectual "battle" for those that had to make the choice was intense. God was on one side, Lucifer on the other; Lucifer could not alter God's plan and likewise God could not alter the consequences of Lucifer's rebellion at that point, so the battle was not really between the two but inside each of us. Just like it is now, the battle is a personal one. Do we choose one side or the other. God does not allow us to be 'lukewarm' on the issue. The battle was between the followers for either side.

Gospel Principles; "God has told us through His prophets that we are free to choose between good and evil. We may choose liberty and eternal life by following Jesus Christ. We are also free to choose captivity and death by following Satan. (See 2 Nephi 2:27.) The right to choose between good and evil and to act for ourselves is called agency.

In our premortal life we had moral agency. One purpose of earth life is to show what choices we will make (see 2 Nephi 2:15–16). If we were forced to choose the right, we would not be able to show what we would choose for ourselves. Also, we are happier doing things when we have made our own choices.

Agency was one of the principal issues to arise in the premortal Council in Heaven. It was one of the main causes of the conflict between the followers of Christ and the followers of Satan. Satan said, “Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor” (Moses 4:1). In saying this, he “rebelled against [God] and sought to destroy the agency of man” (Moses 4:3). His offer was rejected, and he was cast out of heaven with his followers (see D&C 29:36–37)."

[FunkyTown]

Well the one thing I want to correct is there wasn't a discontentment among a third of his children. It was among a third part of his children.

I've heard this before and have to admit I don't know what it means.

What was the second part of his children? o.O

[Seminarysnoozer]

I've heard this before and have to admit I don't know what it means.

What was the second part of his children? o.O

If you take a whole of something and make two cuts, you end up with three parts. The first estate test is one cut, the second estate is the next cut, creating three parts.

[Just_A_Guy]

If you take a whole of something and make two cuts, you end up with three parts. The first estate test is one cut, the second estate is the next cut, creating three parts.

I like this much better than the folk "fence-sitters-in-the-war-in-Heaven" theory. Many thanks for that.

[Drpepper]

Its these kind of conversations in HP that has often led me back into primary where i can enjoy some real doctrine.

[tubaloth]

It was more of a War of words and to some extent lies than actually fighting. It was a chance for everybody to make a choice. Do we Choose Heavenly Father and his plan (with Jesus Christ and Holy Ghost) or not.

I don't think Heavenly Father nor Jesus Christ needed to do much but let us make the choice.

[ElectofGod]

The war was just as difficult if not more so than the ongoing war we are still fighting right here and now. Elohim and Jesus were a part of it. While Elohim may be presenting the plan and the war is "over that plan" he doesn't fight our battles. We fight our own battles. He will help us (instant smackdown) only if we let him and turn to him else we are left to fight it ourselves which surely we will lose.

The darts of the adversary are very powerful and real. Its a very real (mostly unseen) battle but just because we can't see it doesn't mean the battle is not happening. The God's (God, Christ) are fighting the war to the extent of "He[We] shall bruise your[satans] head, and you shall bruise His heel". Thats only true when we rely on God. They allow us not to be bruised past our heels. And will help us become healed from those wounds as well.

[Traveler]

I've heard this before and have to admit I don't know what it means.

What was the second part of his children? o.O

History demonstrates that when the scriptures were made the society of man enjoyed a limited theory of numbers. The ancient theory of numbers did not include fractions. So from an intellectual point of view the 1/3 declaration was not an actual fraction but symbolic that the division was into three separate and distinct parts that may or may not have been equal in size and numbers.

The 1/3 understanding is an example of how modern ideas and understanding becomes a meaning of scripture - a meaning that is misleading and confusing.

The Traveler