What is the Church?

[Maureen]

An organized body of believers who have taken upon themselves the name of Jesus Christ by baptism and confirmation....

Church of Jesus Christ

The word "church" as rendered in the New Testament comes from the Greek term ekklesia which is formed from two Greek words meaning "an assembly" and "to call out" or "called out ones." In summary, the New Testament church is a body of believers who have been called out from the world by God to live as his people under the authority of Jesus Christ (Ephesians 1:22-23)....

The Church - What is the Church?

I suppose the Church would be perfect only if it were run by perfect beings. God is perfect, and His doctrine is pure. But He works through us—His imperfect children—and imperfect people make mistakes.

Come, Join with Us - general-conference

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the kingdom of God on earth, administered by the priesthood of God.

The Gospel and the Church - general-conference

People in the church are people. Their callings do not make them instantly better, or more efficient, or smarter. God is perfect, his church is perfect, people are not.

http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/38084-remarriage-sealing-cancellation-3.html

How do you define what is the church? Is it a body of believers of Christ? Is it a Christian organization that is perfect but it is run by imperfect members? Is it God's kingdom on earth? For me, the church is "the people" who gather together of like mind, who testify and share in the wonderfulness that is God.

Thoughts?

M.

[bytebear]

It's all of those things. I think it's important to understand there is a specific rite for membership (baptism and confirmation). And that rite must be performed by proper authority. One cannot claim to be a Latter-day Saint if they have not joined the church through the correct method.

[ElectofGod]

D&C 10:67 Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church.

68 Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me; therefore he is not of my church.

[Guest]

An organized body of believers who have taken upon themselves the name of Jesus Christ by baptism and confirmation....

Church of Jesus Christ

The word "church" as rendered in the New Testament comes from the Greek term ekklesia which is formed from two Greek words meaning "an assembly" and "to call out" or "called out ones." In summary, the New Testament church is a body of believers who have been called out from the world by God to live as his people under the authority of Jesus Christ (Ephesians 1:22-23)....

The Church - What is the Church?

I suppose the Church would be perfect only if it were run by perfect beings. God is perfect, and His doctrine is pure. But He works through us—His imperfect children—and imperfect people make mistakes.

Come, Join with Us - general-conference

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the kingdom of God on earth, administered by the priesthood of God.

The Gospel and the Church - general-conference

People in the church are people. Their callings do not make them instantly better, or more efficient, or smarter. God is perfect, his church is perfect, people are not.

http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/38084-remarriage-sealing-cancellation-3.html

How do you define what is the church? Is it a body of believers of Christ? Is it a Christian organization that is perfect but it is run by imperfect members? Is it God's kingdom on earth? For me, the church is "the people" who gather together of like mind, who testify and share in the wonderfulness that is God.

Thoughts?

M.

This is for Catholics and LDS - they believe the same thing. The Church is the Organization and Authority and Revealed Doctrine.

The Organization is made up of people, the Authority is carried by people, the doctrine is revealed to people.

The Church is perfect, the people are not.

Okay, both Catholic and LDS believe they and they alone hold the proper authorization. So then, people get to mull it over and ask God who is right because they both can't be.

[Dravin]

It's the body of imperfect believers who have joined the divinely instituted organization that is God's Kingdom on Earth. Really, what I mean by the Church depends on context, one can focus on the people, or the organization/structure, or even purpose and one isn't discussing incompatible concepts but rather different aspects of the same thing. It's similar to how I can talk about America and be referencing the political organization and pursuits of a government, speaking collectively of the people who reside in America, a culture, or a geographical region.

Edited October 11, 2013 by Dravin

[Maureen]

...The Church is the Organization and Authority and Revealed Doctrine.

The Organization is made up of people, the Authority is carried by people, the doctrine is revealed to people.

The Church is perfect, the people are not....

anatess, if the Church is an organization made up of people and people are not perfect, how is it that the Church is perfect?

M.

[Guest]

anatess, if the Church is an organization made up of people and people are not perfect, how is it that the Church is perfect?

M.

Okay, here's another perspective. I'm a programmer so this makes sense to me, hopefully, it will make sense to non-programmers too.

This computer (iPad) that I am typing on is perfect as it was designed by its creator (Apple - they're very good at producing extremely high quality computers).

I can program this iPad to display "Hello World!" on the screen and it will display it perfectly - exactly as I programmed it.

BUT, this iPad was designed so that I program Hello World in a certain way. If I program Hello World in a non-recommended way, this device could crash regardless of how perfectly it was designed by Apple because Apple decided that the programmer has free will on how he chooses to program the iPad to display Hello World.

The iPad is the Church. The Church is paperweight without the programmers. The Church is perfect, the programmers are not because Apple decided that programmers have free will.

BUT unlike Droids, Apple iPads (Church) are protected from the imperfection of its programmers by instituting an Organization that prevents rogue programmers by 1.) requiring that all programmers use the authorized software development kit and join the Apple Development Program (priesthood organization), 2.) requiring that all programs are to be submitted for review by Apple (scripture canonization)., 3.) having a genius bar in Apple Stores to seek assistance (bishopric/stake leaders/GA, etc.), etc. All this is part of the perfection of its Organization. So that, Apple can make this guarantee that the iPad (Church) will never be put assunder by the imperfection of its programmers.

Did that make sense?

[Maureen]

It's an interesting analogy that IMO has some holes.

Without people an organizational entity cannot really exist. When people gather together for a purpose or cause, that organizational entity is created by that gathering. It's the people that create the entity. Without people, a church cannot exist.

M.

[Guest]

How would you describe your church, Maureen?

[Maureen]

How would you describe your church, Maureen?

My question isn't about a specific church, I'm talking about the "body of believers in Christ" as the Church.

M.

[Guest]

Okay, then how would you answer your own question?

[Maureen]

Okay, then how would you answer your own question?

In the OP I said:

....For me, the church is "the people" who gather together of like mind, who testify and share in the wonderfulness that is God....

M.

[Guest]

Does it have anything to do with the organization, or the doctrine?

[Guest]

It's an interesting analogy that IMO has some holes.

Without people an organizational entity cannot really exist. When people gather together for a purpose or cause, that organizational entity is created by that gathering. It's the people that create the entity. Without people, a church cannot exist.

M.

EXACTLY. You can't have a church without the people. We agree on that much. BUT, the Church is perfect in that God's Church cannot be put assunder by the imperfections of its people. He works through our imperfections in driving the Church. The Church, therefore, remains perfect with Jesus Christ at its head.

Now, you and I may have a different view of what "people" means. People may just mean the mortal people who are alive at a point in time. This is especially true with the Catholic faith. The Catholics tend to see Church as only referring to the Church Jesus Christ organized through Peter as the word Church doesn't really exist much in the Old Testament, if at all.

We, LDS, look at people in an eternal viewpoint. So that, though people may refer to the restored church through Joseph Smith as Church but the word Church is used a lot in the Book of Mormon so that, Church does not only refer to the Church as it is restored in this last dispensation, Church to the LDS started with the Plan of Salvation through different dispensations all the way to the Spirit World and onward.

This is even more pronounced when we see how Jesus Christ organizes the Church differently through different dispensations, withholding and restoring authority and gospel truths to account for man's imperfections so that the Church remains perfect even when the people is in apostasy. Revelation, therefore, is only given when the people are ready to receive it.

And this is the main difference between the LDS perspective versus the other Christian perspectives because other Christian Churches only refer to Church from Peter onward.

Edited October 11, 2013 by anatess

[Maureen]

Does it have anything to do with the organization, or the doctrine?

I don't know if I understand your question. Doctrine to me are beliefs and practices that the Church (people) would teach and follow collectively.

M.

[Maureen]

EXACTLY. You can't have a church without the people. We agree on that much....

...We, LDS, look at people in an eternal viewpoint. So that, though people may refer to the restored church through Joseph Smith as Church but the word Church is used a lot in the Book of Mormon so that, Church does not only refer to the Church as it is restored in this last dispensation, Church to the LDS started with the Plan of Salvation through different dispensations all the way to the Spirit World and onward....

anatess, would you say then that you see "the Church" as an entity that has existed since the pre-existence?

M.

[Anddenex]

anatess, if the Church is an organization made up of people and people are not perfect, how is it that the Church is perfect?

M.

There is a verse of scripture within the Book of Mormon that I truly love and wish members would recognize, especially those who have because they have been offended by some church member.

The Book of Mormon witnesses, Helaman 3: 33, "And in the fifty and first year of the reign of the judges there was peace also, save it were the pride which began to enter into the church—not into the church of God, but into the hearts of the people who professed to belong to the church of God—"

We are informed that pride entered into the hearts of those who professed to belong to the Church, but pride did not enter "into the church." Similarly, the Church is perfect ( it is the kingdom of God upon the earth ), however imperfect people seek to organize the Church according to the spirit which is within them.

[Vort]

How do you define what is the church? Is it a body of believers of Christ? Is it a Christian organization that is perfect but it is run by imperfect members? Is it God's kingdom on earth?

"The Church" means "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints". It is the kingdom of God on earth. It is not eternal; it was established on April 6, 1830, and will endure until it is replaced by something else. It will not exist into eternity. It is a temporary organization. But it is a divine organization, created by God for the benefit of those who follow his teachings.

[Lakumi]

"The Church" means "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints". It is the kingdom of God on earth. It is not eternal; it was established on April 6, 1830, and will endure until it is replaced by something else. It will not exist into eternity. It is a temporary organization. But it is a divine organization, created by God for the benefit of those who follow his teachings.

come on Konites!

I kid, I wish nothing for the best for the LDS church, they've done well by me in a time where I feel everything is out to get me

[Maureen]

Vort, you see "the Church" as only the LDS organization? You do not see other Christians as members of God's kingdom on earth?

M.

[Guest]

"The Church" means "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints". It is the kingdom of God on earth. It is not eternal; it was established on April 6, 1830, and will endure until it is replaced by something else. It will not exist into eternity. It is a temporary organization. But it is a divine organization, created by God for the benefit of those who follow his teachings.

That's one usage of Church. The word Church is also used in ancient times in the BOM. Okay, capital C and small c may come into play. But I don't see the church in the time of Nephi or King Benjamin to be separate from the LDS Church.

[Vort]

Vort, you see "the Church" as only the LDS organization? You do not see other Christians as members of God's kingdom on earth?

When I use the term "the Church", I almost always mean what I described. But there are other legitimate usages of the term. The physical building can be called "the church". Obviously, there are a great many other churches, both buildings and religious organizations.

To answer your question specifically: No, I do not consider other Christian churches to be any part of the kingdom of God on earth. This is not a judgment against individuals of other religions, or even of the religions themselves. In my mind, it is a matter of definition.

[skippy740]

From The Bible Dictionary:

Church

From the Greek, Ecclesia, meaning “an assembly called together.” The church is the organized body of believers who have taken upon themselves the name of Jesus Christ by baptism and confirmation. To be the true church it must be the Lord’s church and must have His laws, His name, and be governed by Him through representatives whom He has appointed (3 Ne. 27:1–12; D&C 115:4). In this sense, the church began with the days of Adam and has been on the earth among mankind whenever there were a group of believers who had the priesthood and revelations of heaven. The word church is used only twice in the four Gospels (Matt. 16:18; 18:17) but is frequently mentioned in Acts, the epistles, and Revelation. The Old Testament uses the term congregation for church. The word kingdom is often used in the scriptures to mean the church, since the church is literally the kingdom of God on the earth. The Book of Mormon, as it speaks of Old Testament events, uses the word church (1 Ne. 4:26), and the Doctrine and Covenants speaks of the church in Old Testament times (D&C 107:4).

Principal offices in the church are spoken of by Paul in Eph. 4:11–16, in which it is pointed out that the church is a means by which the saints (or members) become edified and progress toward the full measure of the stature of Christ. That belonging to the Lord’s church is important is emphasized in Acts 2:47, where we find that “the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.” In the church there should be unity and oneness, and Paul was greatly concerned that there were divisions in the church at Corinth (1 Cor. 1:10–13). He repeatedly explained that all the offices and functions of the church are necessary (Rom. 12:4–5; 1 Cor. 12; Eph. 4:1–16), the whole body being fitly joined together. The scriptures contain the prophecies that the church Jesus established would fall into apostasy. This occurred soon after the death of the Twelve. Consequently, the church, with the same organization, doctrines, and authority, has in the last days been restored to the earth, preparatory to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ (Acts 3:19–21; 2 Thes. 2:1–9; D&C 20:1–4; A of F 1:6).

[Maureen]

From Mosiah 18:16-17

And after this manner he did baptize every one that went forth to the place of Mormon; and they were in number about two hundred and four souls; yea, and they were baptized in the waters of Mormon, and were filled with the grace of God.

And they were called the church of God, or the church of Christ, from that time forward. And it came to pass that whosoever was baptized by the power and authority of God was added to his church.

M.

[Dravin]

And it came to pass that whosoever was baptized by the power and authority of God was added to his church.

All other Christians fail this requirement.