Dos Pilas (Mayan city) and Alma 50

[Vort]

These may be dumb questions, but I'll ask anyway.

Didn't Moroni bury the plates in the hill Cumorah in Manchester, New York? Doesn't that mean that Moroni probably didn't live in Central America?

To answer your questions at face value:

Didn't Moroni bury the plates in the hill Cumorah in Manchester, New York?

We do not know where Moroni buried the plates. "Cumorah" is mentioned only in Mormon chapter 6, talking about the final battle of the Nephites at a place called Cumorah, near a hill of the same name (and once in chapter 8, referencing that battle). Mormon (not Moroni) said he "hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records" that he had received -- except for the actual plates of the book of Mormon, which he gave to his son.

("All the plates" must have included a very great number of plates, certainly more than Joseph Smith found in the stone box under a rock on a hill in upstate New York in 1823. So far as is positively known, Joseph himself did not refer to the hill as "Cumorah".)

Moroni, who inherited the plates from his father, says only, "I will write and hide up the records in the earth" without specifying where. He never does tell exactly where the "hiding up" takes place. We do know that he wandered extensively (see Moroni 1:3). So, for example, it's perfectly reasonable to suppose that, in forty years of wandering, Moroni could have made his way from his home territory to the far reaches of the north and buried Mormon's distillation of Nephite spiritual history on a hill in the Finger Lakes region.

Doesn't that mean that Moroni probably didn't live in Central America?

No, unless you attach only the most naive and superficial reading to the narrative. Any reasonable and thoughtful reading shows a far greater depth than the simplistic Point-A-to-Point-B reasoning that (A) Mormon hid the extensive Nephite records (minus his compilation) in a hill called Cumorah and ( B ) Joseph Smith was told by the resurrected Moroni that the record he would translate, specifically, Mormon's aforementioned compilation, was hidden in a hill near his house, so therefore that hill must have been the selfsame Cumorah where the Nephite nation met its demise.

[Just_A_Guy]

Any reasonable and thoughtful reading shows a far greater depth than the simplistic Point-A-to-Point-B reasoning that (A) Mormon hid the extensive Nephite records (minus his compilation) in a hill called Cumorah and ( B ) Joseph Smith was told by the resurrected Moroni that the record he would translate, specifically, Mormon's aforementioned compilation, was hidden in a hill near his house, so therefore that hill must have been the selfsame Cumorah where the Nephite nation met its demise.

Although, in fairness, an awful lot of Mormons over the years--even some pretty smart and well-read ones--have jumped to that conclusion.

[Vort]

Although, in fairness, an awful lot of Mormons over the years--even some pretty smart and well-read ones--have jumped to that conclusion.

True enough. But even very early analyses of the Book of Mormon recognized a depth and complexity that defy simplistic treatment. Other aspects become apparent only with time, e.g. that the Lehites almost certainly migrated to a populated continent, not a land bereft of any and all human inhabitants.

[mdfxdb]

Back to the original posting, and referring to Vorts comments. I believe the Lehites arrived on a populated continent. Moroni may very well have built fortifications to protect cities. Are we really naieve enough to think he invented the idea independently, or did he observe these fortifications from another city/civilization? Just because a potentially fortified city was discovered does not mean it has any relation to nephites, lamanites or any Book of Mormon history whatsoever.

As a youth in the church growing up it was always implied that Lehi arrived on an abandoned continent. Only once I started doing my own separate research did I really understand what was in the Americas before Lehi arrived.

[Feta]

To answer your questions at face value:

Didn't Moroni bury the plates in the hill Cumorah in Manchester, New York?

We do not know where Moroni buried the plates. "Cumorah" is mentioned only in Mormon chapter 6, talking about the final battle of the Nephites at a place called Cumorah, near a hill of the same name (and once in chapter 8, referencing that battle). Mormon (not Moroni) said he "hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records" that he had received -- except for the actual plates of the book of Mormon, which he gave to his son.

("All the plates" must have included a very great number of plates, certainly more than Joseph Smith found in the stone box under a rock on a hill in upstate New York in 1823. So far as is positively known, Joseph himself did not refer to the hill as "Cumorah".)

Moroni, who inherited the plates from his father, says only, "I will write and hide up the records in the earth" without specifying where. He never does tell exactly where the "hiding up" takes place. We do know that he wandered extensively (see Moroni 1:3). So, for example, it's perfectly reasonable to suppose that, in forty years of wandering, Moroni could have made his way from his home territory to the far reaches of the north and buried Mormon's distillation of Nephite spiritual history on a hill in the Finger Lakes region.

Doesn't that mean that Moroni probably didn't live in Central America?

No, unless you attach only the most naive and superficial reading to the narrative. Any reasonable and thoughtful reading shows a far greater depth than the simplistic Point-A-to-Point-B reasoning that (A) Mormon hid the extensive Nephite records (minus his compilation) in a hill called Cumorah and ( B ) Joseph Smith was told by the resurrected Moroni that the record he would translate, specifically, Mormon's aforementioned compilation, was hidden in a hill near his house, so therefore that hill must have been the selfsame Cumorah where the Nephite nation met its demise.

OK that makes sense. It's conceivable that Moroni could have carried the 50-60 lb plates, the breastplate, the sword of laban, and the Urim and Thummim around 3,500 or so miles over several decades. But based on the accounts of several people, there are many, many more sets of records in the hill in New York. More than Moroni could have possibly carried by himself.

In my reading of the BoM it sounds like he was alone, could he possibly have had a team of people to help him haul all these records? Or is it possible he made several trips between New York and Central America?

Edited November 4, 2013 by Feta

[Just_A_Guy]

OK that makes sense. It's conceivable that Moroni could have carried the 50-60 lb plates, the breastplate, the sword of laban, and the Urim and Thummim around 3,500 or so miles over several decades. But based on the accounts of several people, there are many, many more sets of records in the hill in New York. More than Moroni could have possibly carried by himself.

In my reading of the BoM it sounds like he was alone, could he possibly have had a team of people to help him haul all these records? Or is it possible he made several trips between New York and Central America?

Quite possibly. Moroni claimed that the Three Nephites had ministered to him. We know elsewhere that "the powers of the earth could not hold" the Three Nephites, and we also know that God can do some really funky things in terms of transporting people.

Edited November 4, 2013 by Just_A_Guy

[Vort]

OK that makes sense. It's conceivable that Moroni could have carried the 50-60 lb plates, the breastplate, the sword of laban, and the Urim and Thummim around 3,500 or so miles over several decades. But based on the accounts of several people, there are many, many more sets of records in the hill in New York. More than Moroni could have possibly carried by himself.

FAIRMormon does a better job than me at providing some insights and possibilities into this.

As you suggest, the other elements -- the steel sword of Laban, the Urim and Thummim (one or possibly two silver-dollar-sized disks of opaque stone), "the breastplate", and the plates themselves -- would probably have been transported by Moroni to their final place in New York. While this would not be an impossibly heavy burden for a strong man traveling alone, he might possibly have used a beast of burden of some sort to aid him.

The "breastplate" you refer to is an interesting study. It likely references one of the "large" metal ("brass [bronze] and copper") breastplates found by the Nephites when they discovered the ruins of the so-called Jaredite civilization. That the breastplates were metal would have been very notable, since such metal armor and even weapons probably did not exist among the Lehites.

The "swords" and "cimeters" [scimitars, or short curved-bladed swords] referenced in the Book of Mormon were almost certainly not made primarily of metal. Same with the defensive armor Moroni comes up with halfway through the narrative. Popular LDS paintings have consistently represented these as metal, which is an assumption made by the artist but not substantiated in the Book of Mormon text and not very likely, considering what we now know about preColumbian America. The "swords" were more likely early versions of the macuahuitl made "after the fashion of" the steel sword of Laban, while the armor ("headplates", "breastplates", and other such things) may have been similar to or even a precursor of later Aztec armor.

Interestingly, the bronze and copper breastplates found by the Nephites were "perfectly sound", while the swords found with them were "cankered with rust", the hilts having "perished". Amazing observation. As is pointed out much later in the book of Ether, the swords were apparently created with iron technology, which of course over the course of years or decades unprotected in the open would have rusted. On the other hand, the bronze and copper contituting the breastplates both form a self-protective, airtight oxidized layer that protects the material from further oxidation. A fascinating and highly realistic metallurgic point, presented as an observational afterthought in the Book of Mormon.

Edited November 4, 2013 by Vort

[Vort]

OK that makes sense. It's conceivable that Moroni could have carried the 50-60 lb plates, the breastplate, the sword of laban, and the Urim and Thummim around 3,500 or so miles over several decades. But based on the accounts of several people, there are many, many more sets of records in the hill in New York. More than Moroni could have possibly carried by himself.

FAIRMormon does a better job than me at providing some insights and possibilities into this.

As you suggest, the other elements -- the steel sword of Laban, the Urim and Thummim (one or possibly two silver-dollar-sized disks of opaque stone), "the breastplate", and the plates themselves -- would probably have been transported by Moroni to their final place in New York. While this would not be an impossibly heavy burden for a strong man traveling alone, he might possibly have used a beast of burden of some sort to aid him.

The "breastplate" you refer to is an interesting study. It likely references one of the "large" metal ("brass [bronze] and copper") breastplates found by the Nephites when they discovered the ruins of the so-called Jaredite civilization. That the breastplates were metal would have been very notable, since such metal armor and even weapons probably did not exist among the Lehites.

The "swords" and "cimeters" [scimitars, or short curved-bladed swords] referenced in the Book of Mormon were almost certainly not made primarily of metal. Same with the defensive armor Moroni comes up with halfway through the narrative. Popular LDS paintings have consistently represented these as metal, which is an assumption made by the artist but not substantiated in the Book of Mormon text and not very likely, considering what we now know about preColumbian America. The "swords" were more likely early versions of the macuahuitl made "after the fashion of" the steel sword of Laban, while the armor ("headplates", "breastplates", and other such things) may have been similar to or even a precursor of later Aztec armor.

Interestingly, the bronze and copper breastplates found by the Nephites were "perfectly sound", while the swords found with them were "cankered with rust", the hilts having "perished". Amazing observation. As is pointed out much later in the book of Ether, the swords were apparently created with iron technology, which over the course of years or decades lying unprotected in the open would have rusted. On the other hand, the bronze and copper constituting the breastplates both form a self-protective, airtight oxidized layer that protects the material from further oxidation. A fascinating and highly realistic metallurgic point, presented as an observational afterthought in the Book of Mormon.

[Quin]

To know....

- There was a trade route that stretched from (modern) British Columbia (NW NOrth America) all the waaaaaaaaaaay into South America. One of the PacNW tribes specialized in this... As did several tribes in Meso & South America. Ditto, there would most likely be individuals who -even not from these tribes- who would either travel with those who regularly went, or would choose the lofe for themselves. Similar to the Silk Road in Asia that stretched thousands of miles across Asia/ E Europe, with traders leaving very few weeks.

Jst because it took a long time, does not mean that our ancestors were not mobile.

- Also fun... Records were kept, not in books, but in knots. Traders, messengers, and travelers carried things that looked like giant paintbrushes, or a horse's tail... That were actually writing systems. As such, detailed information could be carried great distances, even more easily than with books/scrolls.

... Now, Im NOT saying that the plates were translated into knots (although it would be possible... If the timelines are concurrent. I don't know of they are.) and then remade up north. 50+ pounds is NOTHING to people transporting thousands of pounds of goods across thousands of miles. Our own (modern) soldiers carry 80-150 pounds across hundreds of miles on their own two legs. Easy peasy when youre used to it. (From experiemce). I just think that the knot work writing method is pretty dang cool.

Q

[mrmarklin]

OK that makes sense. It's conceivable that Moroni could have carried the 50-60 lb plates, the breastplate, the sword of laban, and the Urim and Thummim around 3,500 or so miles over several decades. But based on the accounts of several people, there are many, many more sets of records in the hill in New York. More than Moroni could have possibly carried by himself.

In my reading of the BoM it sounds like he was alone, could he possibly have had a team of people to help him haul all these records? Or is it possible he made several trips between New York and Central America?

I doubt if Moroni was ever truly "alone" in the sense that he was all by himself.

Both he and his father clearly came from a prominent Nephite leadership family. It's very likely, even probable, that he had servants, aides and other auxiliaries with him during his journeys. Family retainers would not have left him to join the Lamanites, but would have remained loyal. And has been pointed out it's likely they had beasts of burden.

Since it's obvious that Moroni wandered for years, at a minimum covering territory between Manti UT and the New York area, it's very unlikely he was literally alone. One has only to read about the travels of Lewis and Clark to understand how unlikely it is that one man by himself could have covered so much geography.

[Vort]

I doubt if Moroni was ever truly "alone" in the sense that he was all by himself.

Both he and his father clearly came from a prominent Nephite leadership family. It's very likely, even probable, that he had servants, aides and other auxiliaries with him during his journeys. Family retainers would not have left him to join the Lamanites, but would have remained loyal. And has been pointed out it's likely they had beasts of burden.

Moroni says he was alone (Mormon 8:3, 5). I don't think he meant "alone except for these other people with me".

[Just_A_Guy]

Since it's obvious that Moroni wandered for years, at a minimum covering territory between Manti UT and the New York area, it's very unlikely he was literally alone.

I, for one, am not quite ready to put Moroni in Utah. For example, the story Manti bishop Snow relates re Moroni's having selected the site of that temple. I believe recent historians have noted that Snow's recollection wasn't always the best, and that the Moroni story was not recounted either in the ceremonies for the structure's groundbreaking, or its dedication--a curious oversight, indeed. And the map mentioned earlier gives me pause for the reason Feta mentions--its inclusion of Kinderhook. My gut, at this point, is that stories like this are one part fact-based, three parts well-intentioned embellishment, five parts speculation, and ten parts urban legend.

One has only to read about the travels of Lewis and Clark to understand how unlikely it is that one man by himself could have covered so much geography.

Didn't Lewis and Clark have, like, 20 or 30 people with them?

[mrmarklin]

Didn't Lewis and Clark have, like, 20 or 30 people with them?

Yes, that's my point. Just looking for food was a major problem for the expedition, as well as the tasks assigned to the group.

One man alone would likely spend most of his time just trying to survive with the basics ie. food, clothing and shelter. Not an easy thing on a cold North American continent with deserts, snowy and rainy conditions and dense forest and mountains.

Edited November 7, 2013 by mrmarklin