Paradise, Spirit Prison, Hell, And The Gulf Of Misery

[tiancum]

I was told a few days ago that the spirit world was separated into 4 parts.

-paradise of course (LDS who have learned to repent and take the savior's atonement into their lives)

-spirit prison (where the righteous go, that haven't had their ordinances done

-the gulf (separating the righteous in prison from the wicked in hell)

-hell...where the evil go, especially LDS that are bad.

These two also stated that if you have been sealed to your parents, you are guaranteed the celestial kingdom. Not exaltation, but at least your foot in the door. If you have been bad, then you need to spend time in hell, pay for your sins, and then you may inherit the celestial glory.

Is this crazy? Is it someones opinion or can it be backed? I can see it might be partial truths, but i don't see it all working out like that.

I don't want to give the antis more false doctrine to hang us by. I just thought I'de ask. If anyone thinks I should remove this, i will.

[Guest mamacat]

funny, no one ever explained it to me that way.

[MaidservantX]

This is incorrect as far as I'm concerned.

I'm pretty sure this kind of stuff, other than scriptures and personal revelation, can be looked up in www.lds.org, encyclopedia of mormonism, and, if one must, Mormon Doctrine.

I always resist -- and maybe I'm wrong -- putting concrete demarcations as to places and their parameters or borders when one discusses the afterlife. At least, there is soo much we do not know about it; we are concerned mainly with getting through this portion of the mortal probation.

On the other hand, I don't think such knowledge is out of our reach -- we can have it as soon as we properly seek for it.

Here is my understanding. The spirit world is much like the 'living' world -- there's a bunch of people there in a variety of conditions. I wouldn't be surprised if they weren't all mixed in, like we are here also, except to the degree that they wish to separate themselves and also to the degree that they may or may not have power (agency) about their course while there. For example, when a person dies who has loved ones waiting for us on the other side -- that's most of us -- why, we've got a built in orientation and tour guide, built in friends and family, and we've got a course available to us that probably involves a great deal of peace.

I personally think that 'paradise' and 'spirit prison' are more or less mixed together -- the difference being your own self and whether you have major regrets or have confidence that you have done your best; and also a difference in knowledge of God's plan. Also I do think sealings and priesthood power and ordinances have some effect, but I'm not sure how or in what shape. Now, perhaps paradise and spirit prison are more definitely separated, I would be willing to accept that, but in my own ponderings I think that is just not the most accurate picture. But you can imagine, that there is a great missionary force who is seeking out individuals, much like they do here in the 'living' world, the gospel is preached and ordinances are administered (by connecting vicariously to what we must do here in the physical world in temples).

There is no hell in LDS doctrine, at least not as it is conceived in sectarian Christianity. Hell is a state of soul. It is the chains and captivity of the Adversary. Hell can be experienced in this life just as easily, in fact perhaps more easily, than it can in any afterlife. Plenty of us have gone through hell and plenty of us can expect to go through hell -- and that will mainly consist of at least a couple of different things: 1) the great horrific remorse that we may eventually come to when we realize the effects our acts have had on others and upon the world -- it will take time to work through that remorse and feel like we are worth anything again; and I don't know about you, but I've had at least one experience, no two!, like that already in this portion of life. And also 2) the actual struggle and process of becoming free of the chains of the adversary. We, again, all know, that even when we have an inkling that we might like to be a good person, it's usually quite difficult to overcome our weaknesses and fight Satan's influence in our lives, even when we are accessing the atonement, and those struggles can also be hell. So certainly, both of these experiences (and similar -- regretting that we might have had more if we had humbled ourselves sooner?? I don't know) may be a big part of the spirit world and any other further afterlife positions.

Of course, there is a place in the afterlife that we term Perdition, but the chance of even the worst kind of human being ever even going there is so small, that it is not worth talking about in terms of the life of each of us.

There is no hell. There are three degrees (myriad degrees!) of GLORY! (after resurrection)

The gulf of misery, I am not sure about. I know that the Book of Mormon uses this terminology in a couple of different passages, but I don't know that I ever thought of it as an actual spatial place. I'll have to read it again. Right now I'm thinking that, again, it just refers to the process one would have to go thru to change from the dark side to the light side (or vice versa), lol!

You can read and study and pray about D&C 132. This is the place that gives rise to the bit of info about the benefits of being sealed (to parents and etc.). I do not know what exactly can be plainly stated in this matter, but there must be some reason to why sealings are essential. Just remember though -- we are in the work of sealing EVERYONE. No one will go unsealed unless they absolutely do not want to be. No one is going to be left out.

There isn't a cracker jack box answer that applies to everyone. There are immutable laws and there is agency and without violating those laws or our agency (agency is one of the laws), our heavenly Father will help us each, individually and by name, as His child, reach our greatest potential possible in earth life, spirit world and in the eternal worlds. We will receive the greatest possible blessings that can possibly be bestowed upon us.

Happy seeking!

[CrimsonKairos]

This earth is the spirit world.

The spirits who followed Satan and the spirits of the deceased inhabit this earth, we simply can't see them.

[LukeAir2006]

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This earth is the spirit world.

The spirits who followed Satan and the spirits of the deceased inhabit this earth, we simply can't see them.

CK is right. The Spirit world is right here upon the earth. Its very much like here in the physical realm. I believe there is one spirit world with divisions according to righteousness, church, family etc. The Church of Jesus Christ is organized there. We know that people will be very much aware of their spiritual state. The righteous Saints will still serve the Lord and be in a state of hapiness and peace. The wicked will remain in a state of subjection to Lucifer and will be fearful and miserable. The Saints obviously go out among the wicked otherwise they would not have the ability to teach them the Gospel and prepare those who are able to advance.

[puterguy01]

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These two also stated that if you have been sealed to your parents, you are guaranteed the celestial kingdom. Not exaltation, but at least your foot in the door. If you have been bad, then you need to spend time in hell, pay for your sins, and then you may inherit the celestial glory.

In 2 Nephi 28:8, it talks about how many people believe that they can get away with little sins, and then be "beaten with a few stripes", and be saved. This is false. If such a philosophy is embraced, sooner or later those little sins will seem no fun anymore, and they'll turn into bigger ones, and then bigger, and bigger still. If someone goes and destroys their lives, the fact that they were sealed to their parents doesn't guarantee them anything after this life.

[CrimsonKairos]

I agree.

[sixpacktr]

puter, CK,

It seems to me that several of the GAs have stated that parents that "lose" a child to whatever circumstances in this life, if they are faithful to the end, will have those children drawn back to them, that the sealing power is that strong and that binding.

How that happens, I don't know. It may be in this life or the next, but the parents have been promised that the children will be drawn to them again.

I can't imagine that would mean that the parents and others are saved in the CK and the wayward one saved in the TerreK or TeleK.

I don't think that diminishes what Nephi said. Rather, those children will have to come back, which will be painful, but the atonement will then cover them.

Don't have the talk(s) in front of me, but does that sound familiar?

[tiancum]

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puter, CK,

It seems to me that several of the GAs have stated that parents that "lose" a child to whatever circumstances in this life, if they are faithful to the end, will have those children drawn back to them, that the sealing power is that strong and that binding.

I always took those statements as the Lord would work miracles in their lives....and guide them to repentance. I do not think anyone who has not tasted repentance can even come close to the CK.

Paying for our own sins, in my opinion is the result of denying the effects of the atonement. I do not believe one can merit the CK in any way if they have not humbled themselves and repented in this life.

my uncle once told me, "yea there are a few things that i will need to pay for in hell before im exalted". That really bugged me.

[sixpacktr]

Tiancum,

That was kind of where I was headed. The Lord will work some type of miracle in them that will draw them back to the fold.

I also understand what you are saying about paying for our own sins kind of nullifies the atonement, but isn't it also taught that there are those that have made their calling and election sure and then sin, etc., will pay for that before they will be exalted? I'm not talking Son of Perdition type of sin, but it seems I read that somewhere.

I also think that without a true understanding of repentance and the humility that comes with that inheriting the CK is difficult at best. But I'm also with Ben on his note: I think that, while HF and Jesus are just, they are also merciful, and will be looking for as many "loopholes" (a bad term, I know, but you know what I mean) as they can to allow as many in as they can. That doesn't mean we have a free ride during this test, but it does mean that if we are faithful we don't have to suffer as Christ did (D&C 19). Perhaps those that are "drawn back" do have to make that type of payment in order to atone partially for what they did??

[CrimsonKairos]

The conditions for exaltation are the same for everyone, whether we're sealed as a family or not.

We must have faith in Christ, repent of our sins, partake of the necessary ordinances, and voluntarily allow Christ to change our hearts.

A temple sealing doesn't guarantee that some wayward child down the road is going to be forced to change their ways, even if miracles occur in their life.

We must choose God. God cannot save us against our will. I enjoy the occasional warm fuzzy, don't get me wrong, but any teaching that suggests that Christ can do something that's guaranteed to make someone change their sinful ways is false.

If God could "convince" us to choose Him over sin, then why wouldn't He do that for everyone, not just those who had been sealed? I think the statement by the GA's in this regard is misinterpreted or was mispoken. Doesn't jive with the plan of salvation as laid out in the scriptures, and ultimately, that's what it comes down to.

[a-train]

To those that said the earth is the spirit world:

I am so glad to hear that. So many around me aren't sure about that. I think many of us still see things as do many of the sectarians. We think that when a man dies he goes to some distant heaven or some remote hell.

The truth is, when a man dies, he is still the same man here on the earth with the same mind, but without his physical tabernacle. He will have a great awareness of being dead and he will have a good sense of his guilt. This is the misery of hell. But the torture or pain of hell is worse than guilt. Spirit Prison is so designated because it is simply ignorance. It has been said that ignorance is bliss, but tell that to a man dying of a disease with no known cure. The spirits in prison have no surety of a good day of judgement and may have little or no knowledge of how to secure one, this can be very painful.

I think we often imagine that on the day of our death, everything will be answered and we will know all we ever needed to know. That is just not true. We know that a great work of deception is commenced all around us in this world, that same power and engagement is just as in force in the realm of the disembodied. Satan and crew are there working to bring men into their power. But even as Satan is there, so is the LORD and a fantastic host of ministering spirits engaged in delivering the knowledge of salvation which is the Gospel of Jesus Christ to them that don't have it.

Notice that Alma said the spirits are received into a 'state' of happiness or a 'state' of misery, not a 'place' of happiness or a 'place' of misery. (Alma 40:11-15)

-a-train

[MaidservantX]

By the way, lol, if anyone is worried that I don't know that the spirit world is on the earth, I do for sure know that. I just thought that was a given, a basic assumption. Sorry, ha ha.

[sixpacktr]

Here is where I got the idea of faithful parents having hope:

Pres Faust's Talk in Apr 2003: Dear Are the Sheep that Have Wandered:

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"I believe and accept the comforting statement of Elder Orson F. Whitney:

“The Prophet Joseph Smith declared—and he never taught more comforting doctrine—that the eternal sealings of faithful parents and the divine promises made to them for valiant service in the Cause of Truth, would save not only themselves, but likewise their posterity. Though some of the sheep may wander, the eye of the Shepherd is upon them, and sooner or later they will feel the tentacles of Divine Providence reaching out after them and drawing them back to the fold. Either in this life or the life to come, they will return. They will have to pay their debt to justice; they will suffer for their sins; and may tread a thorny path; but if it leads them at last, like the penitent Prodigal, to a loving and forgiving father’s heart and home, the painful experience will not have been in vain. Pray for your careless and disobedient children; hold on to them with your faith. Hope on, trust on, till you see the salvation of God.” 8

A principle in this statement that is often overlooked is that they must fully repent and “suffer for their sins” and “pay their debt to justice.” I recognize that now is the time “to prepare to meet God.” 9 If the repentance of the wayward children does not happen in this life, is it still possible for the cords of the sealing to be strong enough for them yet to work out their repentance? In the Doctrine and Covenants we are told, “The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,

“And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation.” 10

We remember that the prodigal son wasted his inheritance, and when it was all gone he came back to his father’s house. There he was welcomed back into the family, but his inheritance was spent. 11 Mercy will not rob justice, and the sealing power of faithful parents will only claim wayward children upon the condition of their repentance and Christ’s Atonement. Repentant wayward children will enjoy salvation and all the blessings that go with it, but exaltation is much more. It must be fully earned. The question as to who will be exalted must be left to the Lord in His mercy.

There are very few whose rebellion and evil deeds are so great that they have “sinned away the power to repent.” 12 That judgment must also be left up to the Lord. He tells us, “I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men.” 13

Perhaps in this life we are not given to fully understand how enduring the sealing cords of righteous parents are to their children. It may very well be that there are more helpful sources at work than we know. 14 I believe there is a strong familial pull as the influence of beloved ancestors continues with us from the other side of the veil."

Yes, the wayward children must repent, but there is an element there of the sealing power that draws them back. There is help from the other side that helps do this.

Luckily I have not had to face this trial (so far). I pray every day that I won't have to. That has to be a special kind of hell to watch your child repudiate all they know to be right. Yet, there is comfort in this statement by Pres Whitney and Pres Faust. This life is deadly serious, the most precious couple of seconds of our eternal life, but the Lord, though he will "force to man to heaven" can allow things to happen that will cause that rebellious soul to grasp for something better. And then he can step in, forgive, and allow that child to grow, either here or in the afterlife.

[tiancum]

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"

“And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation.”

We remember that the prodigal son wasted his inheritance, and when it was all gone he came back to his father’s house. There he was welcomed back into the family, but his inheritance was spent. Mercy will not rob justice, and the sealing power of faithful parents will only claim wayward children upon the condition of their repentance and Christ’s Atonement. Repentant wayward children will enjoy salvation and all the blessings that go with it, but exaltation is much more. It must be fully earned. The question as to who will be exalted must be left to the Lord in His mercy.

that is exactly what I was looking for.

I now know that what this person was teaching was false. And have authoritative backup