CommanderSouth

And now, infinite regression has me up till 2 in the morning...

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Let me preface everything I have to say with the point that my intent is not to be contentious, but to explore the ideas.

Indeed, we just don't know everything about intelligences and God (this is why it would be classified as theory). However, I think it is fair to say that if we are currently mortal, and we were previously spirits and intelligences that now have the promise of becoming Gods in the future it is safe to say that at least some intelligences go on to become Gods or become one with God. This is all that is relevant here. Whether all intelligences have the potential to become gods or not does not stop the possibility of others. Perhaps if we thought of intelligences more of as seeds and acorns as a specific kind of seed. Not all seeds will grow into oak trees, only the acorns will. Not all the acorns will grow into strong Oak trees, only those with the right conditions to allow for this progression. Thus if some intelligences were more on par with dandelion seeds or any other seed than those with the possibility of becoming oak trees it becomes apparent to me that these intelligences are not the ones we are concerned with. We can rest assured that if we have the promise of celestial glory and godhood (being oak trees) that we are or were intelligences that do have that potential.

There is no doubt that it is a stretch by the numbers to end up with one out of an infinite number. The question is, is it any more of a stretch than to believe that an infinite number of eternal beings known as intelligences exist and one other eternal being also just happens to exist who is capable of giving them bodies and helping them progress to become like him, but no other like him existed naturally. The whole point is trying to figure out where did god zero (for lack of a better term) come from. Obviously, we don't know... again why some theorize.

I completely accept that God says we will have ALL that he has. It will be a full sharing of glory, and happiness. This particular theory has no problem accepting our God as the billionth in a line since god zero. I agree where anyone falls within the overall geneology of the infinite eternal family has no bearing on the godliness of said being.

I too see no problem with God having parents. The point of the theory is to explain the concept of god's origins. The trouble with infinite regression always being, "where did His parents come from?" One possible explanation is that somewhere in a chain of events hard to understand is that one god came to be without parentage. How? we don't know... I mean even if this theory were to hold up we step it up to the question, "where do the intelligences come from?" Eventually we either need to accept that God simply is, or is not.

No argument here. Our Heavenly Father was a man. As for every single God that came before Him, we don't know... but it does seem fitting that all gods were once mortals as we are.

Again these points all hit at the crux of the matter. If God was once a man... how did a man once become god? We sure don' know. Somehow it happened. It is against the commandments for us to have incestuous relationships, however in the time of Adam and Eve there was no other way and provisions were made so that it was okay. Perhaps special rules apply during seasons of origin.

Some very interesting stuff.

The entirely of your reasonings here are based in the idea that there had a god zero. I reject that there is "trouble" with infinite regression, however. I reject that there needs to be a first. I reject the logic of infinity stretching both ends is illogical. I reject that there had to be a start to it all. And, as I've said, I think the understanding we have of the way things work, from the revealed doctrine that we do have, fits a whole lot better into infinite regression. Otherwise it gets into a round hole, square peg situation pretty quick.

Once again, sorry we ended up with a small amount of frustration in the way we communicated on this. It really was/is interesting to discuss.

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I wrote this for a book but it to me as a child seemed as plausible as anything I was told (though worded better now since my vocabulary got better)

"What we think of as God, and all the names we give to it (and I refuse to think something so grand would be confined to something as limiting as a human form-with gender and weakness our species has) came from somewhere we cannot understand. Cannot fathom, it came here and resides, or even is-this universe. For I also refuse to believe I can put the divine in such an understanding box, if it is indeed all knowing and all powerful. No mortal could understand that kind of power, so to limit it to something we can understand underminds what it is, and at that point it is no longer a God but a tool.

A tool to make humans feel better about dying and about following religion.

This too was a thought I had written here at about 2:45 am

Pretty sure Joseph Smith wouldn't agree with you here. I don't know if you're LDS, but since this is the LDS Gospel Discussion forum I figure this is a fair reply.

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Some very interesting stuff.

The entirely of your reasonings here are based in the idea that there had a god zero. I reject that there is "trouble" with infinite regression, however. I reject that there needs to be a first. I reject the logic of infinity stretching both ends is illogical. I reject that there had to be a start to it all. And, as I've said, I think the understanding we have of the way things work, from the revealed doctrine that we do have, fits a whole lot better into infinite regression. Otherwise it gets into a round hole, square peg situation pretty quick.

Once again, sorry we ended up with a small amount of frustration in the way we communicated on this. It really was/is interesting to discuss.

You won't find any argument with you here:)

Let's just change "trouble" to "mystery". The mystery of infinite regression always leaving one to wonder where the parent that came before came from... it is so much nicer in the origins of man to have Adam as a starting point... so we don't get weird ideas like coming from monkeys.

I have always accepted that eternity goes both ways, or rather is one eternal round. I do fail to see how God being in a different eternal state (intelligence) before being God as we know Him requires the eternities not to go backwards as well as forwards... especially when we look at it through the lens that we accept the premortal, mortal, and resurrected Christ as God, why could we not accept a former premortal intelligence as God, thus He always was and is God, just not in the state we know Him. But I agree that we won't have the answers in this life unless one of our modern prophets has a revelation concerning it, which isn't likely as it is deemed non-essential to salvation, otherwise we'd already have the answer.

I'm glad you found it interesting, and hopefully we all learned some things in the process.

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Pretty sure Joseph Smith wouldn't agree with you here. I don't know if you're LDS, but since this is the LDS Gospel Discussion forum I figure this is a fair reply.

Well I guess that's the one of the many differences in thought he and I have

and no I am not LDS, and while I feel I could join, I am a very closed off and loner sort, which makes me feel they'd really get annoyed with me not coming to church or doing anything-its a long story and I just, I guess don't do things how other people do them, so feel I can't join things like churches because I feel deadest on doing my own thing.

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I see no detraction here Seminarysnoozer. I agree completely that we all become one with God, and therefore although we could be any overly large number in a line of "personages" to become gods (very intentional little g) we become one with God (very intentional big G) and therefore like you say could very much be considered God-Zero, which is a fitting designation for our current Heavenly Father as long as we aren't too caught up in the idea of his individual personage being "the first," which is simply irrelevant because He is One with God and is God now (and if we accept the idea of being gods in the making, we can accept that He always was god as well... just as we accept that a man was a boy and still always a man, at least as far as being a man can also refer to being human as a race)

Just to emphasize a certain point, to be "one" means not only to be of one mind or spirit but to also posses all that the Father has. The story of the prodigal son points this out clearly. At the end of the story, the word "all" is used; " 31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine."

Cross reference "all" and this is what we get; D&C 84:38 " 38 And he that receiveth my Father receiveth my Father’s kingdom; therefore all that my Father hath shall be given unto him." (all that the Father has can be given to anyone who reaches that highest Kingdom) ... and that "all" cross referenced brings us to; 3 Nephi 28: " 10 And for this cause ye shall have fulness of joy; and ye shall sit down in the kingdom of my Father; yea, your joy shall be full, even as the Father hath given me fulness of joy; and ye shall be even as I am, and I am even as the Father; and the Father and I are one;" (people that reach that level shall be like Christ, one with the Father) ...and D&C 78 explains that the whole plan of Salvation is to be equal in all things, this is the lesson He is trying to teach us and the test is to see who is okay with being equal in all things; " 4 For a permanent and everlasting establishment and order unto my church, to advance the cause, which ye have espoused, to the salvation of man, and to the glory of your Father who is in heaven;

5 That you may be equal in the bonds of heavenly things, yea, and earthly things also, for the obtaining of heavenly things.

6 For if ye are not equal in earthly things ye cannot be equal in obtaining heavenly things;

7 For if you will that I give unto you a place in the celestial world, you must prepare yourselves by doing the things which I have commanded you and required of you."

The glory of the Father is dependent on His sharing of the glory. The glory of the Father would be nothing if it was independently held. The Father's hope and Christ' hope is that we be "equal in the bonds of heavenly things." This is why charity and faith are so important, to allow us to "prepare" ourselves for that kind of life, where everything is shared. Or, we could chose a life of not sharing and not being equal, like one star differs from another.

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regarding the comment by "spirit dragon"  who said: 

" how did a man once become god? We sure don' know.

Somehow it happened. It is against the commandments for us to have incestuous relationships,

however in the time of Adam and Eve there was no other way and provisions were made so that it was okay.

Perhaps special rules apply during seasons of origin.

On this statement implying "incestuous" relationship existed--

There was no incest committed by Adam & Eve's children at the beginning of Time

(wait wait before you go to the definition of incestuous-- you have to know the facts of that situation and when 'incest' was proscribed; made immoral --                                           and why God even created that rule/command/and attendant consequences physical and spiritual)

When Adam and Eve came -- they were immortal resurrected beings -- they were Celestial-- What was their DNA- what was the nature of their seed and ova-- their powers of life?  Answer--  they were Celestial-- they were not mortal - temporal- the were (to just emphasize by repetition) They were CELESTIAL.  

The entire danger and problem with incest is first -- temporally-- children with the same liabilities of their genetic.  The entire problem with any species that in-breeds is the recessive genes and their combining to increase a problem that ALREADY Exists.  That was NOT the case with Adam and Eve - their gene pool -- their DNA - their code for the creation of bodies was Perfect.  [as a intervening caveat -- we know they are seeking to become as Father-- following the Perfect Plan and Pattern -- and so the likelihood that they are of the category of Gods and Goddesses who are our actual spiritually biological parents is unlikely.  There are many, many (many!) men and women married in Celestial Marriage and who are Celestial and have passed up to the level where they make spirit bodies (organizing the intelligences)--- They are our parents in ACTUALITY- 

For our Father in Heaven is God The ETERNAL FATHER- what I, in my mind see and call, is a "FATHER GOD" one who is perfected in perfections (as is found in our Revealed Teachings) He follows a GRAND design to prevent any partiality any (skin in the game-- so-to-speak) none of the spirit children on this Earth or any of the other Earths (organized / or colloquially referred to as 'created'- by The Word -- Jehovah -- with all the other 'Michaels' -- who would be the 'Adam' (first man) on those other planets)

Elohim is not -- not -- not -- not!  really and truly our personal father of our spirit in the sense that he had intimate sexual intercourse with a Celestial woman (sealed to him as an Eternal wife) and brought me or you or anyone (save Jesus Christ) forth-- for this very phase of life and progression from Pre-Existence to Judgment Day {which I refer to as a CREATION CYCLE}  Elohim as Joseph Smith revealed (in the most cogent pithy manner as a Heavenly pattern) is our father as we are 'sons and daughters begotten unto God'

                the scripture is D&C 76:24     "That by Him, and through Him, and of Him, the worlds are and were created,

                                                                and the inhabitants thereof ARE begotten sons and daughters UNTO GOD."   [emphasis added]

Our Father in Heaven-- as we refer to Him -- is our Father -- following every logical rational an revealed pattern as we have to this point in time

                                                                       by a sacred Ordinance / ceremony and Covenant by That man -- an Eternal Father-- to be our Father 

by the powers and principles and laws of Adoption-- he is our Father just as a Grand father is our father or a great great grandfather can be called simply a 'father' to his descendants.  In this case - He has taken us as his children by the same means and in the same spirit as those who are not of the House Israel become sons and daughters of Christ -- by the Ordinance and Covenant of Baptism -- it is the same principle.  God, The ETERNAL FATHER is a God Supreme in Bearing Power and Glory -- who not being subject to the temptations inclinations or even remote possible partiality that would come to play for any parent of children to stack the deck; give favoritism or overlook some infraction some sin -- some offense or transgression because of affection, desires or feelings to aid comfort or rescue that child they raised from infancy to adulthood (in spirit- of a Pre-Existence)  

THE REALITY of our wonderful beginnings is the fact that Father is not the actual literal father of not just (a good estimate) the Hundred Billion of souls that will populate this planet Earth-- as well as the (let's keep the pretend guesstimate of a Hundred Billion) of each of the other (unknown number) earths organized from (yonder matter un-organized) chaos to the wonderful pattern of mortal planets used for the 2nd Estate.

Our Father is our blessed and wonderful step father -- Just as Christ is our father (a step-father) not our literal biological father-- and yet is very truly and in all ways pure and supernal Father to all those that embrace The Doctrines of Christ and keep His Commandments -- to be true and faithful in all things.

SO -- when you talk of Heavenly Father -- know this surely and truly as the sun shines -- as I live and as God lives-- He is following the Perfect and Sacred Pattern of Dominion -- that prevents any ANY ......ANY !!!! partiality or favoritism-- for He can stand as the perfect and JUST man of JUSTICE as a Father for us -- by a sacred and holy Ordinance of sealing (by our choice our Agency our assent and our joyful acceptance) to be His Children -- truly and marvelously 'begotten unto Him' our chosen GOD.

All of that Which IS Celestial is done by a Perfect Plan-- and all participants can approve and accept and bind them-- to that Plan

(that is totally different from a so-called democracy; or any government or governance of man or mortality who choose to create the plan by discussion legislation or dictate of the masses or one of the masses-- Father's Plan and All Celestial Plans are created by Celestial Beings and we accept or reject that plan.)

SO-- given that our Father is set determined chosen by THE ETERNAL PATTERN OF THE ETERNITIES-- as our Eternal Father-- and His first born of spirits (perhaps for this CREATION CYCLE-- (don't get mad that's a lot of people 100 billion times (whatever number of planets)-- The whole point is that there is laws and provisions and processes where everything is JUST -- perfectly JUST-- following the 1st Law of Power and Promise JUSTICE-- and there is no way that anyone-- by design or mistake will mess up the plan and give any wicked or evil person ability to enter the Celestial Realm and mess up Eternity for any of the precious ones we love -- you -- or one of your blessed precious ones.

this is an Exact Plan of Perfection and Perfection(s) !!

THEREFORE -- (after that long caveat and embarking on some of the realities of our Pre-Existence and the Patterns of our Eternities)

                           When we speak of the children of Adam and Eve we are talking about the pure spiritual bloodlines of God and Goddesses in the many multitudes

                           And we are talking about the PURE and undiluted genetic codes for the many mortal re-combinations and permutations that will arise over many generations!!

So there was no actual incest for the very particular / medical / biological -- aspects of what would generate the law and effects of 'incest' -- was not there PERIOD.

Now as to the aspect of a sister and brother taking one another into marriage -- the was purity on the earth -- until the first murderer and first perversions and abominations arising from the most Evil aspect pattern or path-- namely 'secret combination' came into being with Cain.  -- Now in all things -- if we do not remember that we have a 'stumbling block' of our current version (which is not pure not undefiled and not perfectly translated-- Our Record of Moses (a copy of a copy) and all the Prophets -- of The Old Testament was ripped and huge portions of the "many" named by The Holy Ghost to Nephi -- of the "most plain and precious" were removed by The Whore of All the Earth - The great and abominable Church whose foundation was the Devil-- Read what was given to Nephi -- So we don't have the Brass Plates (that is yet to come) So Adam and Eve discussing their children do not necessarily start with Cain and Abel-- for there were girls there that Cain married - where did they come from if he was a 2nd child to be born-- that is just silly and juvenile or more accurately "infantile"  -- all ALL of us are to use ALL of the Jigsaw puzzle pieces of the Entire TRUTHS given in what Scripture we contain-- using the Spirit to confirm what is accurately translated not mutilated transfigured by those awful priests of a false "Religion" part of the great "Orthodox Religion" Satan would create and send forth to confound tempt and pervert the Ways of The Lord-- as the philosophies of men (he would propagate and proliferate) mixed mingled with and set to corrupt real and true "Scripture".  SO Cain and Abel were not the first boys born.  And we know that Adam would have been given all ! ALL !!! of the Covenants and Commandments and Patterns including Celestial Marriage as revealed to Joseph rejected by Emma -- in the same catastrophic result as when given to Abraham and rejected by the 1st wife under that law of Sarah -- which the saints at the time of Joseph called the principle -- and when Hagar rejected it -- we got an entire people of the nations of the Arabs following the pagan religion of the moon god al-ilah (now shortened to Allah).  Serious Patterns have Serious Opposition by the Evil One.  and by all who subject themselves to Him

Adam had to be true and faithful in all things -- and he and Eve were !! that means they practice at some point -- not yet given to us with our missing Brass Plates as well as we do not have the Book of The Lamb of God -- a pure record instead of our present New Testament (KJV) or the Record of the 10 Tribes--

So to assume that Father did not provide means for Adam to take unto himself additional wives and keep the Celestial form of Marriage as he had to follow each other area of life in a Christ-like Pattern and raise himself to a Celestial Character of man with his wife and those to join in sacred covenants following The Perfect Plan -- would be assume a gross misunderstanding of the Patterns of Righteousness and the unfolding and perfections of a Life we are all to respectively consider in our path following Adam and Eve unto Christ and then unto The ETERNAL FATHER.  

so there was no ugliness of incest in our first parents and their immediate and quite numerous offspring-- later generations and later SINS of awful proportion -- created the biological and spiritual conditions requisite for the command and existence of punishment for incest.  Let none of us even in the smallest way cast any schmutz - darkness or taint upon our first parents -- a holy couple willing to risk all to show so many -- on this planet they can live the Perfect Plan and become Gods and Goddesses if they have the faith and the effort of holy determination necessary 

The Plan is Perfect -- it is Sacred and there is an answer to every question - every principle -- every Doctrine-- every experience of history?  Alma did not what happened to the spirits of men immediately after death-- he prayed, used faith and got answers.  Adam did this - angels came and he Received Light and Truth-- Enoch- The Brother of Jared-  Abraham did this too as well as Isaac who so humbly and devoutly wanted to complete the sacred pattern shown by The future Savior in sacrifice-- so to Jacob - Moses and each true disciple of our Master-- And each who did seek -found; and each who asked- received; and each who knocked-- it was opened unto them.  Yes there are limits as to the forms of Godliness "temperance" and to "patience" as well as to The Will of God-- such as to withholding knowledge of the actual lives and experiences on the other planets / earths of this CREATION CYCLE-- But Father will and has provision for all to know-- and He shall unfold All His Works for this earth to each who makes him or herself worthy per His Laws and Will.  Too many, far too many settle for microscopic crumbs-- for they will not seek to fulfill the measure of their creation -- here on this earth in this Dispensation or seek The Face of The Lord and fulfill the very telling sacred and meaningful command to do the works ye have seen me do-- and that was not limited to the Saints of The Land of Bountiful after His Crucifixion -- Read very very (i really mean it very) carefully 3 Nephi 27-21 through 23.  A command to All -- this IS!  and a Promise in the mode of chorus or repeat (with a Purpose) a purpose that those of 'little faith' or failing to ponder or lacking in the burning desire for 'more' for the 'sacred' for the Quest of Christ will overlook, fail to apprehend, take in-- We are to see His Life - and only by seeing His mortal life  - by vision -- the same as Enos impelled uplifted motivated and filled with faith did by "the words of Eternal Life" and "the Joy of The Saints" imparted by a man who saw and talked to Jesus face-to-face -- Enos' father Jacob (the brother of Nephi)  

And with that beauty and power and testimony -- with that flame of pure love -- that rests with and emboldens them to obtain and use The Heavenly Gift of The Spirit of Prophesy and Revelation-- did Jacob- share and instill those very things into Enos -- and so his heart yearned and he desired the pure desire for more- for the things of God-- for the blessings of The Atonement and communion knowledge Light and Truth through the Holy Ghost and the blessed experience with The Savior.  It IS what words of The Savior by command and by blessing in the power of its fulfillment-- The Lord is telling us to do and we can do --and if we do -- He Shall Bless us to fulfill as recorded 3 Nephi Chapter 27.   Take time and effort -- diagram it out separate the conditional clauses the command and the repeat-- ferret out the message and the invitation and the sure Promise of accomplishment-- Each of us must have as Nephi taught "Perfect Faith In Christ" and each of us must do what Jesus after fulfilling The Father's Will and risking his total demise under the weight of all the sin, ugliness, evil and suffering of All ALL of the souls on this earth from Adam to the last man or woman born on this earth before Judgment day -then multiplied by each and every other earth with their Billions of people and ALL their sins, evil and resulting suffering that He began and was given what was needed in His time of need -- the Gift and He did not fail faint or fall He bore with -- found the Light and Beauty of the pure, the innocent, the life of His Father by which He said he did all things he saw His father do-- and every act of purity, wholesome labor effort discovery repentance sacrifice and pure love and innocence pure-- and burned with the Holy Fire of a perfectly just man and powers of from his Celestial sire-- and burned to ash the Evil by Holiness and sealed His heart and passions from the Oceans and Oceans of temptations and ugliness to keep His inner self -- his temple within- undefiled -- holy and pure-- and leaving The Garden Victorious and "Righteous Still" thereafter suffered the temporal suffering of the wicked Jewish leadership and the pains of the cross finally completing His assigned duty to be 'The Lamb of God' and let his heart burst after telling The Father He had fulfilled His WILL.  That is man - then used the powers of His Eternal Father and was Resurrected -- SO when you read 3 Nephi 27 21 and the other subsequent verses KNOW WHO IS TALKING-- and then act in real faith and pursue with vigor and faith-- gain it - plead- repent when necessary - refine yourself - ask Father to purge by fire your dross - and allow you  to see His Face - His Life -- His Works-- for then you will know why you need to see His Life and His Words -- so you can DO THEM !!

Read it and then re-read the Book of Mormon with faith with prayer with rapt attention and a love of God and of your fellow man-- seeking to be Just - not allow the deeds of evil --feeling the anguish of soul and the trouble of the mind- to the tears upon your pillow as the true disciples and The Very Lord did when knowing of seeing and experiencing sin wickedness unbelief disbelief apostasy and evil -- so your heart will mirror His and His true disciples the men of God and the True Sisters of Faith-- Then God Willing-- you shall have the view of the things your heart desires most!  For The Law is set and The Eternal Words of God has declared that men are granted that which they desire

Be wise my brother and my sisters-- God Lives - He is Our ETERNAL FATHER- Christ is Risen and awaits our perfect faith and true devotion

                                                         The Holy Ghost- bears witness of Truth and teaches, comforts, rescues, heals, transforms unto Christ-like character and nature per LAW

The Church of The Lord is real and restored upon this earth by a real Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr. a son of the great prophet Joseph as prophesied to bless All of The House of Israel and the entire world as was promised to their father Abraham. 

All can join and follow the path and the Iron Rod of The Word of God revealed in the past and now revealed with more expanding perfection and glory in our days of Today

IF we but lay aside the Orthodox Religion of the 'world' and seek with faith and holy works the path of Adam Christ and all who we hold as beloved ones of God.

yours truly

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On 1/16/2014 at 2:06 AM, CommanderSouth said:

Sometimes I wish I could be content to understand that it is probably not possible to see outside of our "box".

But I sit here and try to figure out how God is either A) Always God, which seems to go against ye olde King Follet discourse, or B) Not always God and seems to not answer where everything came from.

Any thoughts? I'd imaging "Deal with it" is nigh approaching :)

Since we too have "always been," I think Godhood is a matter of acting like the Father of our spirits (when we arrived from wherever we were before into that pre-mortal estate). We have always been striving to act like Him when He was in our place or stage of development, just as we strive to be like Him now. And once we act like Him, it is as though we have always been like Him--just as when children are sealed to parents, it is as though they had always been in the covenant. So there really is no infinite regression to worry about (there is none). He has always been God because He is as though He always was God.

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I just don't think at this time-based point in our existence we're capable of comprehending an eternal, timeless existence.  I suspect that cause and effect are less relevant when one is no longer affected by the passage of time, or indeed, when it possibly doesn't pass in a way we could understand with mortal minds.

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