A Very Good Case For The Death Penalty!

[Guest mamacat]

You keep looking at murder like a sin.

Society doesn't view it as a sin. Society is separate from religion or spirituality.

Society doesn't need to "forgive the sinner to be forgiven." Society merely enforces laws which punish the guilty and protect the innocent.

my point: murdering as a form of protection doesn't "protect." it is as RLDS concluded ~ it brutalizes society. if that were the case then corporal punishment would be acceptcable as well. just as it is in muslim countries.

[CrimsonKairos]

Bad comparison. Muslim countries enforce spiritual laws with physical force (the mutawas).

That'd be like the LDS Church whipping someone who didn't pay tithes.

Society is not a religious organization, does not have the duties and obligations of a religious organization, and should not be expected to behave as a religious organization.

Society makes law, and enforces law. Murderers are brutal. Society must be brutal to them in turn.

[Guest mamacat]

i wasn't comparing the U.S. to muslim countries. the opposite in fact. i was saying that by your logic that corporal punishment would be an acceptable form of punishment as well. countries where corporal punishment is acceptable and enforced are muslim. are we like that? God forbid that we are.

see?

and by reciprocating with brutality, we are in effect, condoning it.

[CrimsonKairos]

I disagree. B)

[Guest mamacat]

no way!!

and here i thought this was such a pleasurable and sociable tete a tete.

could be i'm just groggy though....

[CrimsonKairos]

I'm leaning towards the groggy explanation myself.

[a-train]

OK,

Since the big question of capital punishment is on the table I have my questions.

'Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying, Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.

But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.' (Matt 15:1-9)

Now, is it not evident herein that the Saviour endorsed the death penalty as prescribed in the Mosaic Law? The popular legal loophole that enabled so many at that time to withhold goods from their parents in spite of the law without the decreed capital punishment or even any penalty at all was herein disavowed by the LORD. Does this lend us any light on the subject of the death penalty and God's feelings thereon?

Now the Nephites definitely utilized the death penalty also.

Even more serious for the LDS believers is D&C 42:19. A list of sins and the appropriate course of action therefore are listed and this particular says: 'I say, thou shalt not kill; but he that killeth shall die.'

What are we to assume here that the LORD thinks about the death penalty?

-a-train

-a-train

[Guest mamacat]

it seems to me that Jesus was talking about the hypocrisy of the pharisees, not the death penalty.

[sec 42:6] And now, behold, I speak unto the church. Thou shalt not kill; and he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come.

[sec 42:7a] And again, I say, Thou shalt not kill; but he that killeth shall die.

it appears, first, that he was speaking speciifcally to the LDS church, not society at large, as CK specifies. but even still, it makes it that much more apparent that if we kill, for any reason, even in retribution for the death of another, that those that killeth, shall die. he doesn't state that everyone else is responsible for killing the person who kills. again, it seems more a matter of an individual crafting his destiny for himself, through his own actions....as ye reap, etc.

[CrimsonKairos]

Capital punishment is okay for the same reason spanking naughty kids is okay.

What that reason is, I shall leave for you all to decipher.

Oh and a-train? Right on the money. Nice example from D&C, very explicit and clear-cut. Thanks.

[JcDean78]

Mamacat I think you are just trying to see something that is not there and fail to see what is there because of your personal feelings on the matter.

[Fiannan]

Some say that the society does not have the right to grant the ability to take life in order to protect the society in general.

If that were so then wouldn't we have to get rid of the entire military since the ultimate purpose of a military is to kill those who might threaten the nation -- even those individuals from otehr nations who might be totally innocent?

[pushka]

Mamacat, I find myself arguing with my heart over the issue of capital punishment. The example of the Amish recently, and of the Buddhist monks who were shot dead a little while ago is really humbling.

So many times I try to oppose capital punishment, in favour of other forms of rehabilitation of the criminals involved, but unfortunately there are occasions on which I read about a particular murderer/s (such as the Moors Murderers in the UK) and my heart cries out for the families of the victims and their sadness that the UK had abolished capital punishment just a short time before those murders were committed.

I really do find it difficult to say on which side of the argument I stand.

[Blessed]

Mamacat, I am right there with ya on this!!! :-)

[sixpacktr]

traveler,

What is this civilization you referred to? I'd be interested in knowing.

Thanks.

[Serg]

If convicted give me one good reason these people should not all be executed?

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article....RTICLE_ID=55834

Because it would diffuse teh line that so passionetaly you draw between them and you: it woul dbe (as hillman puts it) " teaching to hate hatred". Not only is that a contradiction of the blatant form, but a seed of further evil. Though psicological points of view concerning " the shadow" are of full authority to some of us to quote from, is nicer if we just stay put with our true reasoning and emotions: if we draw so sharp a line between teh <evil>, <frenetic>, <neurotic>, <sychopathic>, then we must in some content differentiate ourselves from <them> not only by name. Wit over sense.

But teh Lord put it well when said in teh epistle of James:

18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to aspeak, bslow to cwrath:

20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God. 21 Wherefore lay apart all afilthiness and bsuperfluity of naughtiness, and receive with cmeekness the dengrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

just a thought, not so much of an argument,

regards,

[Guest mamacat]

"Capital punishment is okay for the same reason spanking naughty kids is okay."

kids don't learn not to be naughty from being hit. they learn that hitting is ok when something makes you mad. they learn to hide their thoughts, motives and actions out of fear.

if you think that, then it seems that you would be in favor of corporal punishment as well. and i wonder, why is it illegal to hit other adults, but ok to hit children?? it so isn't. hitting children causes as much psychological damage as hitting your wife. it takes away all trust. it only instills fear. for people who are distressed at the levels of child abuse and child pornography, you can refer to the acceptance of physical abuse as punishment. our society diminishes the necessity of attachment between parent and child, and so the quick fix for regulating their behavior is to hit. it is so backwards to condone hitting children, but not adults.

"Mamacat I think you are just trying to see something that is not there and fail to see what is there because of your personal feelings on the matter."

LOL...i suppose the rest of the countries in the civilized world are just as misled by their 'feelings.' yes, the U.S. should be so proud that our practices equate to those of Iran and China.

re:

Some of the first countries to abolish capital punishment included Venezuela (1863), San Marino (1865), and Costa Rica (1877). Today, over half the countries in the world have abolished the death penalty either by law or through practice. Since 2000, Chile, Yugoslavia, Serbia, Montenegro and Turkey have joined the list of abolitionist countries. Most executions occur in a handful of countries: China, Iran, Saudi Arabia and the United States. In Great Britain, it was abolished (except for cases of treason) in 1971; France abolished it in 1981. Canada abolished it in 1976.

and the RLDS as well ~

Whereas, society is increasingly alarmed about violent crime and available means to reduce it thus focusing attention on the death penalty as an acceptable legal remedy, and

Whereas, representatives of the church are sometimes called on to state a position on this issue and to join with interfaith groups attempting to offer moral guidance to the public, and

Whereas, data on the effectiveness of the death penalty as a means to deter violent crime is inconclusive, and

Whereas, application of the death penalty too often has appeared to discriminate against the poor, the minorities, and the undereducated, and

Whereas, faith groups of the Catholic, Orthodox, and Jewish traditions, as well as numerous Protestant denominations (Episcopal, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Methodist, Baptist, Brethren, Mennonite, Friends, Disciples, etc.) have rejected or urged extreme caution in adopting the death penalty as a punishment or deterrent for violent crime, and

Whereas, we share the belief of many of these faiths that the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ on the cross canceled the Old Testament teaching of an eye for an eye, and

Whereas, we share the belief that capital punishment of a person convicted of a crime is an unsatisfactory response which demeans and brutalizes society, therefore be it

RESOLVED, that the Standing High Council affirms that it is a faithful reflection of the life and teachings of Jesus Christ, whom we proclaim, to encourage society not to use capital punishment as a penal response to crime.

perhaps the faith groups of catholic, jewish, episcopal, presbyterian, lutheran, methodist, baptist, brethern, mennonite, friends, etc are simply 'misguided' by their feelings as well.

yes, most of the world and most of the world's religions have failed to understand that killing is wrong, as stated in the ten commandments....as taught by Jesus....because of their 'personal feelings.'

perhaps we should alert the UN.

oh, and President Faust too, who upheld the beliefs of the Amish (opposed to capital punishment) in General Assembly this year.

and CK, you are contradicting yourself immensely ~

you say to me ~

"You keep looking at murder like a sin.

Society doesn't view it as a sin. Society is separate from religion or spirituality."

but then to a-train, who uses scriptural support for capital punsishment ~

"Nice example from D&C, very explicit and clear-cut."

however, in his example, Jesus is very explicitly speaking to members of the church, of the religion of LDS, NOT society in general ~

[sec 42:1a] Hearken, O ye elders of my church, who have assembled themselves together, in my name, even Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God, the Savior of the world, inasmuch as they believe on my name and keep my commandments;

[sec 42:1b] again I say unto you, Hearken and hear and obey the law which I shall give unto you; for verily I say...

in that example in particular, JC reiterates ~

[sec 42:6] And now, behold, I speak unto the church

to use the example from D&C, which is not referring to capital punishment, but nonetheless, to use it for that purpose, is the equivalent of what you suggest re: muslim countries ~

"Bad comparison. Muslim countries enforce spiritual laws with physical force (the mutawas).

That'd be like the LDS Church whipping someone who didn't pay tithes.

Society is not a religious organization, does not have the duties and obligations of a religious organization, and should not be expected to behave as a religious organization."

you said that.

and about the incident with your father...you know i sympathize and feel that immensely. of course society must have laws. my concern is that capital punishment, as well as coporal punishment, are extremely inappropriate as acceptable measures to be taken as such. almost every country in the civilized world agrees. 1/3 of all states in the U.S. agree. most mainstream religions agree. i believe that, through everything that he taught, that JC would agree as well.

and Pushka and Blessed, thank you for sharing your thoughtfulness here as well. there is, afterall, a light in the wilderness.

[Outshined]

Pushka and Blessed, thank you for sharing your thoughtfulness here as well. there is, afterall, a light in the wilderness.

Implying that those who disagree with you somehow represent darkness? I've read some interesting opinions here, but I don't see that yours carry any more weight (or "light") than anyone else's.

I read about this last week too, and couldn't understand why it was the first I've heard of it. I'm shocked at the fact that the media has kept quiet about this. It's an absolutely hideous crime and those perp's do not deserve the air they are breathing.

It's pretty hot news here, but I live only a hundred miles away or so. The reports I've read indicate that the perpetrators so far have shown no remorse at all.

[sixpacktr]

mamakat,

I don't think that Pres Faust was upholding the beliefs of the Amish in his example. What he was lauding was their ability to forgive and not let it canker their souls. Which is what we should do.

I believe that capital punishment has a place in society. Forgiving people does not remove the consequences of their actions. We may forgive and even love them, but there are consequences to actions. We cannot remove that part of justice from mercy. Our Saviour suffered so that we wouldn't have to if we repent, but justice demanded that someone suffer for the sins of the world. And although we can be forgiven, we can't expect the consequences to our actions here to be magically removed.

An example of this was illustrated several years ago in the Ensign. A missionary was preaching somewhere (England, maybe, I don't remember) and came across a girl that had rather loose morals. She accepted the gospel, made the changes necessary in her life, and was baptized. She was forgiven for her past sins because of the atonement. However, she had become pregnant during one of her encounters prior to meeting the missionaries, and so delivered a baby about 5 months after being baptized. The consequences to her actions could not be "wiped out" (well it could have been, but at a very high price, obviously). She was forgiven, but consequences follow.

In another instance in Africa a man joined and was a wonderful convert to the church. Did everything that was required of him and then some. Wanted to serve a mission. Then he was diagnosed with AIDS and died a year or so later. It didn't seem fair, as he had repented and been baptized and was a true follower of Christ in every sense of the word. But the consequences for dangerous behavior prior to his conversion followed, and he had contracted this terrible disease.

That, to me, is the same with murderers. We can forgive, we can love, but justice will, and must, have it's day.

[Outshined]

mamakat,

I don't think that Pres Faust was upholding the beliefs of the Amish in his example. What he was lauding was their ability to forgive and not let it canker their souls. Which is what we should do.

I believe that capital punishment has a place in society. Forgiving people does not remove the consequences of their actions. We may forgive and even love them, but there are consequences to actions. We cannot remove that part of justice from mercy. Our Saviour suffered so that we wouldn't have to if we repent, but justice demanded that someone suffer for the sins of the world. And although we can be forgiven, we can't expect the consequences to our actions here to be magically removed.

That, to me, is the same with murderers. We can forgive, we can love, but justice will, and must, have it's day.

I agree; well said.

[Guest mamacat]

"Implying that those who disagree with you somehow represent darkness? I've read some interesting opinions here, but I don't see that yours carry any more weight (or "light") than anyone else's."

lol, i said that rather in jest...sorry you took it so seriously. nor do i think that my opinion is any more weighty than others'. i do think that condoning murder is wrong though, esp as state sanctioned. in that respect, it does feel rather like a wilderness.

it's not my intention to offend so readily.

[Outshined]

it's not my intention to offend so readily.

Understood; it did look as though you were saying CK and others' comments were of "darkness", whereas I saw only different opinions.

[Guest mamacat]

mamakat,

I don't think that Pres Faust was upholding the beliefs of the Amish in his example. What he was lauding was their ability to forgive and not let it canker their souls. Which is what we should do.

I believe that capital punishment has a place in society. Forgiving people does not remove the consequences of their actions. We may forgive and even love them, but there are consequences to actions. We cannot remove that part of justice from mercy. Our Saviour suffered so that we wouldn't have to if we repent, but justice demanded that someone suffer for the sins of the world. And although we can be forgiven, we can't expect the consequences to our actions here to be magically removed.

An example of this was illustrated several years ago in the Ensign. A missionary was preaching somewhere (England, maybe, I don't remember) and came across a girl that had rather loose morals. She accepted the gospel, made the changes necessary in her life, and was baptized. She was forgiven for her past sins because of the atonement. However, she had become pregnant during one of her encounters prior to meeting the missionaries, and so delivered a baby about 5 months after being baptized. The consequences to her actions could not be "wiped out" (well it could have been, but at a very high price, obviously). She was forgiven, but consequences follow.

In another instance in Africa a man joined and was a wonderful convert to the church. Did everything that was required of him and then some. Wanted to serve a mission. Then he was diagnosed with AIDS and died a year or so later. It didn't seem fair, as he had repented and been baptized and was a true follower of Christ in every sense of the word. But the consequences for dangerous behavior prior to his conversion followed, and he had contracted this terrible disease.

That, to me, is the same with murderers. We can forgive, we can love, but justice will, and must, have it's day.

i don't disagree with this stance as i stated previously to CK, re:

of course society must have laws. my concern is that capital punishment, as well as coporal punishment, are extremely inappropriate as acceptable measures to be taken as such. almost every country in the civilized world agrees. 1/3 of all states in the U.S. agree. most mainstream religions agree. i believe that, through everything that he taught, that JC would agree as well.

when i met our missionaries in January, i was living my life in almost every degree to the standards of the LDS. had been doing so for at least 10 yrs. it was the reason i fell for the LDS way to the extent that i did, and was baptized around two weeks after my first encounter with the missionaries. but i will say one thing ~ that if i had been pregnant during this time, i would never think of my child as a 'consequence.' a child is a gift from God, one of the greatest miracles that humans can experience. and the many problems with our society regarding our children come from precisely this attitude that they are 'burdens', to be dealt with....that they are 'unwanted', because they don't fit in with our materialistic, selfish, egocentric, instant gratification way of life. there is always room for a baby in our culture. it takes love and respect for all of God's creation and the way that He works. a baby has a direct, divine connection with his mother, that does not exist with any other, regardless of the way he was conceived. some life situations may be more conducive than others, and some that are considered to be so actually are not. there is great diversity in this life and in God's plan.

<div class='quotemain'> it's not my intention to offend so readily.

Understood; it did look as though you were saying CK and others' comments were of "darkness", whereas I saw only different opinions.

thanks Outshined. i like CK a lot and he knows that. :)

[Outshined]

Interesting that the LDS Church has no clear official stance on the death penalty; but prefers to leave this matter up to law. One of the few subjects on which there is no defining statement.

It is up to members, I suppose, to decide whether they support it or not.

[CrimsonKairos]

<div class='quotemain'>

If convicted give me one good reason these people should not all be executed?

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article....RTICLE_ID=55834

Because it would diffuse teh line that so passionetaly you draw between them and you: it woul dbe (as hillman puts it) " teaching to hate hatred".

Why does everyone inject so much emotion into capital punishment. It's not like someone works themselves up into a frenzy, grabs an axe, and starts hacking away at the convict's neck until his/her head dangles from a bloody stump!

Let's review the facts: the victims were anally raped, orally raped, one vaginally raped, one burned, one tossed in a garbage can. And yet giving the murderers a lethal injection lowers us to their level?

Gimme a break.

No one is saying we hate the criminals. We are simply saying we must punish them by taking away what they took away from someone else. Why is this so hard to understand. It doesn't have to involve hate at all, just the enforcement of law.

mamacat: I was applauding a-train's example from the D&C because it was a clear-cut case of the Lord enjoining capital punishment. I wasn't saying God was telling government what to do, just that there are examples of the Lord condoning capital punishment. No, I don't think the Church should be able to use capital punishment.

Now mamacat, you keep referring to executing criminals as murdering them. Is all killing "murder" to you? Is there no difference in your mind between premeditated and malicious killing and killing in self-defense or to save the lives of others?

And yes, mamacat and I are buddies, even though we disagree on alot of things. B)

[prisonchaplain]

re: prison chaplain ~

"the only punishment that recognizes the value of life is execution."

that's a contradiction in terms. it's like hitting a child as punishment for hitting. the child only learns that hitting is appropriate for communicating displeasure. he doesn't learn the reason for not hitting....he doesn't learn values or respect for others. he learns fear, and dissimulation.

Yes, I know that at first glance, capital punishment does not seem "pro-life." In fact, many Catholic pro-lifers do not understand why so many who oppose abortion endorse state executions. Unlike corporal punishment (which intends to teach through the infliction of pain), execution is a lesson to the living. It says that we value life. Anyone who would take a life with particular cruelty and malice must make retribution with the only thing s/he has of equal value--life. A victim's life is not worth 10 years, or 20 years, or 50 years. It is worth "the breath of life" that God gives. So, whoever would take that breath away, must lose theirs.

BTW, I happen to believe that corporal punishment can be effective, if used sparingly, cautiously, and wisely.

therefore he would abolish capital punishment, which is murder.

I remain reticent about capital punishment. However, it absolutely is not murder. Execution is biblical and, properly employed, it is justice. Quite often, the state must aspire to justice. On a personal level, of course, Christians aim for the higher virtue of mercy.