Crisis Of Faith

[Guest mamacat]

From what we know, how do you justify that everyone you've known will be in heaven and that being God's plan?

what i mean is that i believe that God wants every one of His children to be in heaven with Him. and i think that he works ceaselessly to help each and every one of us to achieve this. He never gives up on us, even when others do. that is his promise, that is our salvation. i only said that i would be delighted to encounter everyone i've ever known in heaven...nor would i be surprised to see them there, as i have faith in God's ways to bring us to him, in ways unperceived by us. we do not see every facet of his plan, and are asked only to have faith in him.

[Dr T]

I agree that he does have a plan and desires all to be saved. Do you believe that not all will be saved though?

[Guest mamacat]

dunno. though sure as rain, i would be more than ecstatic to know that everyone i've ever known, as well as those i haven't, will be saved and in heaven with God and everyone. i think it's what we're here to strive to achieve -- it's what God expects of us. to love each other as we love him. i kinda think also that that's what Jesus was trying to tell us too. perhaps even, one the main reasons he walked among us.

[Missitta]

(((Mamacat)))

I am so sorry to hear of your horrible experience. That is so hard to have to go through and losing friends because of someone elses actions.

Your experience is very different from ours, yet the same in a way. Hubby was instantly villified in this situation I feel solely because he was THE GUY. Bishop said at first it was much easier to believe her because she played the poor little girl routine complete with tears claiming the "experienced married man" took advantage of her. It wasn't until her past was brought up by her bishop and she couldn't deny it that it became very apparent she was far more experienced than my husband and he was anything but taking advantage her. Sounds like you were made to be the villian the way he was.

(((Hikchik))))

That poem was great. I'll have to remember it. I feel that way too, that we never talk about that the church leadership being fallible until we are involved in a situation where it becomes an issue. Many times I have had to remind myself even though they are very in tune with the spirit, they are also human.

Right now is not the time to bring up running into her in heaven. I am dreading the time we run into her in real life since it is pretty much a given that we will someday since we are practicaly related to her inlaws, whether it's months or years from now. I am hoping by the time we do I can have forgiven her. After reading your post I thought about how I would feel if in the next life if she was there. Honestly I loved her as a friend at one time and I am not completely discounting the fact I could love her that way again, even though it most likely wouldn't be in this life unless a lot of changes are made including her admitting to lying in the first place. That is part of what makes it so hard to forgive her. I thought we were friends. Good friends. When it comes out she was acting the part so I would trust her so I would let her spend time with my husband....

It's good to get other people's points of view on this. Most of the people that know about it don't understand the whole church aspect and therefore don't think it's that big of a deal. I never realized forgiveness was so hard. I've been through crappy situations before and have had to do minor firgiveness things which wasn't really too big of a deal, but this is something comepletely new to me. At times I feel so selfish. There have been so many people that have been through so much worse than this and were able to forgive almost immediately, what is my deal? I didn't lose my husband or my son, she didn't get what she wanted, why am I still so angry?

[Guest mamacat]

(((Mamacat)))

I am so sorry to hear of your horrible experience. That is so hard to have to go through and losing friends because of someone elses actions.

Your experience is very different from ours, yet the same in a way. Hubby was instantly villified in this situation I feel solely because he was THE GUY. Bishop said at first it was much easier to believe her because she played the poor little girl routine complete with tears claiming the "experienced married man" took advantage of her. It wasn't until her past was brought up by her bishop and she couldn't deny it that it became very apparent she was far more experienced than my husband and he was anything but taking advantage her. Sounds like you were made to be the villian the way he was.

thanks, i have sympathy for your horrible experience as well. did your bishop really discuss conversations he had in private with her with you? if your bishop helped you to defeat and expose her so completely, why are you still so angry at the church leadership?

our situations are very different...the husband in question was a friend of my brother, and the only time i ever allowed myself to be in his company, after his intentions became apparent, was in social situations involving my family. many of the times we were all together, i was also with a man with whom i was in a relationship (and sleeping with) at the time. and he knew this. and he pulled his stunts anyway. it's unbelievable what some people will do, with no regard for others, esp their own wives, isn't it? i suppose i was villified because i was the girl. my brother was married soon after this, and his friend didn't attend the wedding. our father was quite unhappy about this, and my mother told me that he asked her why. she said she told him the reason, but i don't think he believed the truth of what happened. it's sad how families become so fractured in light of such things.

[Missitta]

(((mamacat)))

You asked why I am still angry with the church leadership since my bishop took our side in this mess. I feel I am going to sound extremely petty with my answer so bear with me. :)

I am not angry with that bishop (he is no longer our bishop as we moved). It took him a long time to sort through the lies but when he did he took our side 100% and would relay many of his conversations with her, her conversations with her bishop, and other things to us to help us out. I think by the end of it all he viewed it in a humorous light as her accusations became more and more bizarre and obviously not true. Who I am upset with (though now it is starting to fade) is her bishop and stake president who gave her her temple recommend less than three months after she told them she was still waiting for me to leave my husband so she could be with him and was still trying to implicate him in an affair. I am upset that there was no at least delay in getting her recommend nor any sort of apology from her or anyone for six months of constant questions and accusations. She still got her recommend even though when pressured into it she admitted to "messing around" with multiple men besides her claim of sleeping with my husband at least up until July not to mention the fact that her now husband (hubby's former best friend) was bragging about their exploits to all his other friends up until their wedding. Yet they both got recommends. They were quite aware she is an extreme liar so whats the deal?

My anger with the leadership is miniscule since getting advice here. It's more disappointment over anger that they couldn't see through all the crap and figure her out. Of course it took hubby and I nearly three years and her pretty much throwing herself at him to figure it out so I can't blame them much. I guess I always figured he's a BISHOP or a STAKE PRESIDENT so he KNOWS when something is not right. It's less anger than feeling let down that now I view them as flawed...or even worse...human. I am fully aware her walking into the temple whether worthily or unworthlily is absolutely none of my business and has no effect on my proression in life or in the next life, however I always viewed the temple they were married in as MY temple and it was special to me. It was the one I was married in. The one I strived so hard to get to my whole life. At the moment it is just another building to me. I drive past it everyday and it seems tarnished in my mind. I'm upset that she was able to walk into it and that she doesn't view it as sacred as I do. I know people lie to get into the temple everyday. It's different this time for me because I know who it was and what she lied about. Make sense?

See, told you it was petty. :)

[BenRaines]

It is not a matter of seeing through it. I know that there are those who have sat in that seat as a Bishop, Branch President, member of the High Council. We cannot call someone a liar. We can discerne by the spirit if someone is lying and try to get them to confess but if they with a lying tongue answer yes to the questions asked then they are going to be given a recommend.

Now if there are pictures, sworn testimony from out of the mouths of two or three witnesses, with no reason to lie then that is anohter situation.

They will be held responsible for their lies since you can lie to anyone you want but The Lord. He knows everything and thier sins will be laid before them.

Ben Raines

[sixpacktr]

LilMiss,

No, it isn't petty. It's human. It will fade with time.

And I know that to you the temple isn't "just another building". It is important to you, but maybe the fact that someone could go in that isn't worthy diminishes it to you. Remember, it is our HF's house, and there was a time when 1/3 of his children rebelled against him in perfect knowledge of what they were doing. All while in the presence of HF. So it is still the same place it always was. HF deals with his imperfect children perfectly. It all comes out in the wash.

As for your leaders and others, they too are human and try to err on the side of mercy rather than justice more often than not. It may be the same in this instance as well.

[Guest mamacat]

(((mamacat)))

You asked why I am still angry with the church leadership since my bishop took our side in this mess. I feel I am going to sound extremely petty with my answer so bear with me. :)

I am not angry with that bishop (he is no longer our bishop as we moved). It took him a long time to sort through the lies but when he did he took our side 100% and would relay many of his conversations with her, her conversations with her bishop, and other things to us to help us out. I think by the end of it all he viewed it in a humorous light as her accusations became more and more bizarre and obviously not true. Who I am upset with (though now it is starting to fade) is her bishop and stake president who gave her her temple recommend less than three months after she told them she was still waiting for me to leave my husband so she could be with him and was still trying to implicate him in an affair. I am upset that there was no at least delay in getting her recommend nor any sort of apology from her or anyone for six months of constant questions and accusations. She still got her recommend even though when pressured into it she admitted to "messing around" with multiple men besides her claim of sleeping with my husband at least up until July not to mention the fact that her now husband (hubby's former best friend) was bragging about their exploits to all his other friends up until their wedding. Yet they both got recommends. They were quite aware she is an extreme liar so whats the deal?

My anger with the leadership is miniscule since getting advice here. It's more disappointment over anger that they couldn't see through all the crap and figure her out. Of course it took hubby and I nearly three years and her pretty much throwing herself at him to figure it out so I can't blame them much. I guess I always figured he's a BISHOP or a STAKE PRESIDENT so he KNOWS when something is not right. It's less anger than feeling let down that now I view them as flawed...or even worse...human. I am fully aware her walking into the temple whether worthily or unworthlily is absolutely none of my business and has no effect on my proression in life or in the next life, however I always viewed the temple they were married in as MY temple and it was special to me. It was the one I was married in. The one I strived so hard to get to my whole life. At the moment it is just another building to me. I drive past it everyday and it seems tarnished in my mind. I'm upset that she was able to walk into it and that she doesn't view it as sacred as I do. I know people lie to get into the temple everyday. It's different this time for me because I know who it was and what she lied about. Make sense?

See, told you it was petty. :)

it's that you feel that the sacredness of your temple has been comprised, no?

perhaps this will help explain her bishop's actions a little further, and help re-establish the sacredness for you.

when my bishop was asking about all the non-existent promiscuous reationships (as he put it) i was supposedly having, he made it clear that he did not believe my answers. this was my first interview with him for my first trip to the temple. he was determined to make me go to the temple, as he had asked me for this interview, and told me that it was necessary for me to go to the temple soon after my baptism. i told him that i didn't think i could go, as i had to take care of my son. so he found someone to watch my son for me during my temple visit. it's very strange to me that he would go to such lengths to get me to go to the temple, and then in our interview, tell me that he did not believe my answers, that i was not worthy, and still insist that i go! as his reason, he told the story of a young woman whom he said he knew to be lying in her temple interview, but that he knew, via his relationship with the Lord, that she should still be allowed to go to the temple. for the sake of her soul. all of this was, and still is very new to me, as i knew nothing of the LDS church before this year. so i asked him if it was the Lord's will, that this other woman go to the temple, in spite of her lies, in spite of her unworthiness, and he said yes, in no uncertain terms.

so i left the interview rather stunned, as my bishop was insisting i go to the temple, had essentially called me a whore and a liar, when that was farthest thing from the truth ever, yet was still insisting i go, even though he considered me unworthy, because it was the Lord's will!

there was one man i had a relationship with after my husband filed for divorce, and we were so close i expected that we would be married. we weren't though, and that was over a year ago. i have had no relationships or physical encounters with anyone since then, so i really have no idea why the bishop would accuse me of having several illicit relationships, esp just having been baptised. yet he still insisted, and went out of his way to make the arrangements, for me to go to the temple. he even rode in my car with me to the temple, i think to make sure that i went, and wouldn't have any excuse for not making it there! the Lord must have had a big reason seeing to it that i went to the temple that night, lol.

so just perhaps, your ex-friend's bishop may have had the same reasoning. perhaps he felt a strong impulse from God concerning her temple attendance. who are we to question God? perhaps it was the very sacredness of the temple itself that God wished her to experience, to know of his boundless love.

i dunno, i suppose that's what occurred to my bishop, but can't really say. all i know is that he said that God told him that i should go to the temple, despite the fact that the bishop considers me a whore and a liar!

so even when our church leadership is uncertain about things, i suppose God isn't. he is certain of who we are and what we need.

i have another situation more similar to yours lilmiss. when all this debacle happened with our married friends, my first husband had just divorced me. i was somewhat like your husband's best friend, as i was feeling quite vulnerable also. you see, my first husband did leave me for someone else, who had been friends with me as well.

life is weird sometimes, but God always knows, and is never far from our hearts, if we only allow him in. much like he invites us into his temple, to know of his unlimited and astounding love for us all.

and much love you have, it seems, with such a great husband and beautiful baby boy. He seems to have been quite wonderful you. i hope that your friend gets to discover his awesome love as well someday :)

[Missitta]

After you guys post things everything seems to make so much more sense and I feel like such a spoiled little child. *But I worked so harrrrrrd for this and she didn't do annnnything. It's not fairrrrr!*

There could be any sort of reason that she was allowed into the temple:

#1) The bishop knew straight out she was lying but couldn't prove anything since no one was sitting outside their window with a camera and she obviously didn't sleep or anything with my husband so unless she confesses, there is nothing they can do and she walked through those temple doors unworthily and is setting herself up for her own condemnation.

#2) She was supposed to go to the temple for her own personal growth whether worthily or unworthily in anyones eyes and its up to her as to whether or not she learns from it.

#3) He is telling me to just shut up and trust Him (much nicer) and that things will work out in the end or..

#4) Any or all of the above plus whatever else I may never know and may never be meant to know.

[Guest mamacat]

my bishop told me he did not believe i was worthy to go to the temple, yet told me i needed to go anyway, even when i told him i couldn't go, because of my son. would that be setting me up for condemnation?

if so, why would he do such a thing?

[CrimsonKairos]

There's a wise saying that goes:

Treat someone as they are, and they will remain as they are; treat someone as if they are what they could be, and they might become what they could be.

Still, this must be tempered with gospel standards especially when dealing with the holy temple.

[Guest mamacat]

oh, so perhaps one day i can aspire to overcome being a whore, according to my bishop, since that is what he considers me? i certainly didn't need to be lured into the church, baptism, and the temple, just to be told that.

i'm not a whore, nor was i ever. it's not necessary for anyone to tell me what both God and i already know is true.

[Missitta]

((((mamacat))) But you're not a whore. He just thought you were. And he was wrong so theres no condemnation because you were worthy. Difference is she did have relations. My guess is no one could prove it so she was able to walk into the temple based on a lie thus leading to her condemnation since she did enter unworthily. I don't see how your situation would lead to your condemnation despite what your bishop thought.

Your situation: Bishop believes you messed around even though you didn't but can't prove anything. You tell the truth that you didn't and go to the temple. That is not leading to condemnation because you told the truth.

Her situation. Bishop believes she messed around which she did but he can't prove anything. She LIES to get into the temple. She is condemned because she is not worthy. This is speculation of course. :)

I don't believe a bishop would set someone up knowingly for condemnation but I do think they can't stop someone from setting themselves up for it.

[a-train]

I'm certain a lot here have heard the old story of the company going through the temple when suddenly the Elder says: 'I'm sorry, there is someone here who needs to leave, they are not worthy to attend the temple today.' After a moment of everyone looking around, he says: 'I don't want to go into details about your situation, please leave or I'll have to.' Then a person walks out and the company goes forward.

I want to tell another story. A better one. A Temple President is called upon to go to his office and meet a woman waiting there. After taking care of some business, he goes to his office and sees a woman in temple clothing waiting on him. He invites her in and asks her what she needs.

She pulls a temple recommend from her pocket and places it on the desk saying: 'I found this on the street and I'm not even a member of this Church. I just went through all the various rooms of your temple and saw everything that goes on here and nobody knew the better. What do you think about that?!'

The Temple President responds: 'I'm not certain any of my own thoughts will matter, it is you who took on all those covenants. Are you going to be able to live up to them? What do you think about that?'

We could speculate whether this woman's covenants were binding, especially because she took part in the endowment for the dead and not in her own behalf, but let's just allow her to wonder for herself.

Now I can't verify either of these stories, but they exist in the lore among the members of this Church and I now have circulated them further. But I want to take the example demonstrated in the latter story. Will the LORD allow someone to lie their way through the temple? Can the brethren be deceived? Will a heart-attack strike those attempting to unworthily enter the Temple? Will the Temple President come walking up and strike fear into their hearts with amazing knowledge of their iniquities given by the Spirit? Perhaps yes and perhaps no.

The truth is, that we can go into the ordinances of the Gospel with a pure heart or filthy, it makes no difference to the Church nor the truthfulness of the Gospel. It will only serve to bless or curse the man who so enters according to his desires. Let us not assume that an unworthy person who has been given a recommend or baptism or any thing else has got it because the LORD doesn't know their worthiness or the brethren are not in tune. The LORD can let whoever He wants to enter into the ordinances of the Gospel and will justly bless or condemn them accordingly.

-a-train

[Guest mamacat]

((((mamacat))) But you're not a whore. He just thought you were. And he was wrong so theres no condemnation because you were worthy. Difference is she did have relations. My guess is no one could prove it so she was able to walk into the temple based on a lie thus leading to her condemnation since she did enter unworthily. I don't see how your situation would lead to your condemnation despite what your bishop thought.

Your situation: Bishop believes you messed around even though you didn't but can't prove anything. You tell the truth that you didn't and go to the temple. That is not leading to condemnation because you told the truth.

Her situation. Bishop believes she messed around which she did but he can't prove anything. She LIES to get into the temple. She is condemned because she is not worthy. This is speculation of course. :)

I don't believe a bishop would set someone up knowingly for condemnation but I do think they can't stop someone from setting themselves up for it.

in my interview, my bishop said that he could deny a temple visit on the grounds of knowing someone was lying. i asked him if he could have prevented the woman from going to the temple and he said that he could, that he allowed her to because it was the Lord's will.

[BenRaines]

Knowing someone is lying and believing someone is lying are two different things. Knowing means he was there to observe the infraction they were denying. If I was a witness to it and they were lying they would be called on it. If it was that someone told me then I don't know only believe it to be so.

I know it sounds silly but that is the way it is.

Ben Raines

[Guest mamacat]

if my bishop didn't believe that i was not having illicit relationships after i affirmed that i was not, thus implicating me for lying as well, wouldn't he at least suggest, or try to counsel me not to go to the temple and suffer condemnation? rather than go as far as to arrange someone to watch my son? i can understand his doing that if he had asked the numerous questions, and believed my answers, but he didn't, and he told me he didn't.

why would he not discuss this further with me, if he truly didn't believe me, wouldn't he want to emphasize the part about condemnation?

i'm not bitter about this, just quite confused. what is very difficult for me to accept is the part about making my son feel like an unwanted piece of trash in primary. believe me, i am more than accustomed to hatred disdain being heaped upon me, and i still know that God loves me. but my son doesn't understand this yet, and though i know he'll soon learn the sting of unwarranted hatred, i didn't expect him to experience at church.

[Guest Yediyd]

<div class='quotemain'>

From what we know, how do you justify that everyone you've known will be in heaven and that being God's plan?

what i mean is that i believe that God wants every one of His children to be in heaven with Him. and i think that he works ceaselessly to help each and every one of us to achieve this. He never gives up on us, even when others do. that is his promise, that is our salvation. i only said that i would be delighted to encounter everyone i've ever known in heaven...nor would i be surprised to see them there, as i have faith in God's ways to bring us to him, in ways unperceived by us. we do not see every facet of his plan, and are asked only to have faith in him.

Mammacat,

I may have gotten your name wrong...but I loved what you said, and I agree with it whole heartedly! I believe that all of us are God's children...the good and the bad, and as our father, he loves us all and wants to see all of us succeed. Some will do better than others, and God will be the judge of all that, but we all fought for the right side before we came here, and we all will be rewarded with some degree of glory because of that. The rest is up to us...but I agree that our heavenly father does all that he can to help us make the right choices, then he steps back and gives us our agency. That's a God I can and do worship!

Thanks for your insite, it helped me in my healing process!

Yediyd

[Guest mamacat]

thank you Yediyd.

[Hikchick]

Wow! Quite a response! I can understand the frustration and pain felt by everyone in dealing with their own issues here. I don't want to sound preachy. I have always had a very difficult time forgiving anyone. But, just recently we had some family problems that resulted in some very heated words and accusations. What I learned during this problem is that while I wanted everyone else to feel the pain they caused me (so that they could see how wrong their words and actions were) I was not allowing myself to heal. When you focus on how bad someone has wronged you, you can't make any progress forward yourself. Your anger will hold you back. I can't remember who said it, but it was during one of the conference sessions within the last year or two. He said that if we what if'ed ourselves or focused on someone elses issues we could never grow. We would be stuck in that rut. I've always been the type of person that when something happened that caused me pain, I wanted the person who caused the problem to feel my pain. I would pray that they would see their wrongdoings and know how it hurt me. Because of this family incident I learned that my anger wasn't letting me move anywhere but down.

I definately don't mean to preach. I just know the miracle of our Heavenly Father's work to soften hearts! Especially my own! God will heal your broken heart, if you give Him all the pieces!

[Guest mamacat]

yes, i often hear people who seem to revel in others getting their just reward, their 'karma' so to speak. i never take pleasure in contemplating others' 'just karma'. i love to think of love, acceptance and forgiveness as a healing blanket that soothes and heals all the pain and hurt that compels us to hurt others in the first place.

God will heal your broken heart, if you give Him all the pieces! :)

[Palerider]

One of the hardest things about being a Bishop is......when people come in and tell you something and now you have to remain neutral. You have 2 people who have each told their side of the story and you have to remain neutral giving each the same love and compassion regardless of whether the one is right or wrong. In other words....you can't take sides. Then the hard part...you know have to try and find out who is telling the truth. But in the meantime.....you as a Bishop are getting racked over the coals because one of the people or both didn't feel like you believed what they told you or etc. I have dedicated 10 yrs of my life in the calling as a Bishop and just recently released after being called a second time. I have been cussed out several times and threatened etc. I have had courts and excommunicated a close friend and my very own daughter. I have also had messaged delivered to me that said....as long as I was the Bishop or Branch President we will not come back to church. I have seen and dealt with alot of stuff. I have stayed up at night tossing and turning wondering if I did the right thing or made the correct decision. I had a chorister mad at me for 5yrs cause I refused to allow us to sing all 2000 verses of Poor Wayfaring Man of Grief, I finally told her to get over it. I was released in Feb of this year and the new branch President allowed us to sing all verses of that Hymn a few weeks ago and she let me know about it. It probaly sounds like I am bitter but I am not. If I am called a 3rd time....I will accept the calling. I also had alot of good things over the 10 yrs happen and great spiritual expierences. I get offended and a little bitter when I feel like we are blaming church leaders for things that have happened to us. Its always easy to blame when you have never had to sit in that office with that mantel on your shoulders. I will accept the calling again and fullfill it to the best of my ability cause I love the gospel of Jesus Christ and I love his Church and the Savior.

[Guest Yediyd]

One of the hardest things about being a Bishop is......when people come in and tell you something and now you have to remain neutral. You have 2 people who have each told their side of the story and you have to remain neutral giving each the same love and compassion regardless of whether the one is right or wrong. In other words....you can't take sides. Then the hard part...you know have to try and find out who is telling the truth. But in the meantime.....you as a Bishop are getting racked over the coals because one of the people or both didn't feel like you believed what they told you or etc. I have dedicated 10 yrs of my life in the calling as a Bishop and just recently released after being called a second time. I have been cussed out several times and threatened etc. I have had courts and excommunicated a close friend and my very own daughter. I have also had messaged delivered to me that said....as long as I was the Bishop or Branch President we will not come back to church. I have seen and dealt with alot of stuff. I have stayed up at night tossing and turning wondering if I did the right thing or made the correct decision. I had a chorister mad at me for 5yrs cause I refused to allow us to sing all 2000 verses of Poor Wayfaring Man of Grief, I finally told her to get over it. I was released in Feb of this year and the new branch President allowed us to sing all verses of that Hymn a few weeks ago and she let me know about it. It probaly sounds like I am bitter but I am not. If I am called a 3rd time....I will accept the calling. I also had alot of good things over the 10 yrs happen and great spiritual expierences. I get offended and a little bitter when I feel like we are blaming church leaders for things that have happened to us. Its always easy to blame when you have never had to sit in that office with that mantel on your shoulders. I will accept the calling again and fullfill it to the best of my ability cause I love the gospel of Jesus Christ and I love his Church and the Savior.

Wow! good for you, Pale...

I love my Bishop, and when people try to talk bad about him...I just change the subject or inform them that they are talking about someone I love and respect!!!!!! and he took my Temple recomend away reciently. I know he loves me and I am working to get my recomend back. I want to relokate to Utah...he advised me to stay in New York...it's hard...but he is the Bishop...I'm staying...no more discussion.

Yediyd

[Hikchick]

Palerider,

Thank you for reminding us about what it's like to be on the other side of the desk. Many of us will never understand the calling that you and many other righteous men have accepted to watch over Heavenly Father's flock. I can admit that I've been mad at a couple of Bishops and at least one Stake President. Probably the most angry I was ever at a Bishop was the one that was my own Father. He is a very righteous man, but oh, dear! We butted heads quite often! :S I can see that there are many things to try to deal with when handling so many people and watching out for their welfare, both spiritually and physically. You have my gratitude for your selfless service.