6 q's about extracurricular activities

[Bini]

I have some specific questions that maybe some of you can expand on. I'm at the beginning stages with my daughter in getting her involved with extracurricular activities and I could use some food for thought. Any other suggestions or personal experience? I'm all ears.

1. What age did you start your child with EAs?

2. Was it their interest and choice? Or, was it your preference?

3. If it was your preference, was your decision based on: what you took as a child, what you wish you had taken, what was the cheapest, or what your child can continue excelling in as an adult?

4. If your child doesn't appreciate the EA, do you: allow them to quit, expect them to complete a certain time frame then resign, or force them to continue?

5. If you force them to continue, what benefits do you foresee? Is there any concern that they might hate it so much that they avoid the activity outside of the EA?

6. What are the signs that you're too involved with the excelling in an EA and not listening to your child?

7. If your child shows exceptional skill in their EA, do you feel it's your duty as a parent to encourage them to pursue it at a professional level? How would parents balance other responsibilities with the priorities of grooming a world-class athlete, dancer, musician, or academic (like Chess)? I was reading an article on "How To Raise an Olympian" and the funding of traveling around, entering your child into competitions, etc. -- is exhaustive!

[Vort]

1. Depends on what you mean by "extracurricular". My kids were/are homeschooled, so we create the curriculum. We started them in gymnastics and swimming at around age 5 or 6, so maybe that's what you mean.

2. Both their interest and our choice. If they showed particular interest in something, we tried to accomodate.

3. Based on all of the above, though not so much with what they might excel at as an adult.

4. In general, we allow them to take or quit an activity. The younger they are, the more lenient we are. Exceptions include:

• They must learn to swim. No bargaining there. If they don't like it, tough. (Fortunately, they all have liked it.)
  
• If we have paid for a term (e.g. gymnastics), they finish out the term.
  
• If they join a team sport, they are allowed to quit if they decide they hate it. But if they stick with it into the season, they must complete their obligation to their team -- no mid-season quitting just because they decided they don't like it any more.
  

5. They are "forced" to continue if their dropping out would negatively affect others, because it is not fair to the team that they do it for a while and then quit. And if we have invested money or resources in the activity, they are expected to derive whatever benefit they can from the activity. I am not made of money, so we expect our resources to be utilized to a reasonable extent and not just wasted.

6. Screaming at the refs. Telling them to "suck it up" if they are actually hurt (more than just a boo-boo). Worrying about whether they are excelling instead of worrying about whether they are enjoying themselves and learning.

7. If my child showed unusual skill or ability at something, I would encourage him/her to pursue it. But it is my child's choice. I will try to make it attractive, but I will not insist that s/he do something s/he doesn't want to do. In that way, I try to respect my children's agency.

I believe my oldest could have been an exceptional competitive swimmer. He was tall, slim, athletic, and showed a lot of natural ability. But he didn't really enjoy swimming. What good would I have done by pushing him to swim? In the end, the world has a lot of great swimmers. It isn't dying to have my oldest son be among them. And my oldest knows I care enough about him to allow him to determine his own destiny.

[Backroads]

This is a mix of my own childhood experience and my parenting plans and philosophy:

1. I think I was in kindergarten when I started my first EA (Soccer). I played it a few years before finally telling my parents I didn't like sports. They were fine with removing me from the team. I later chose to do tumbling and a dance team in elementary school. With jr. high, I pretty much picked my own stuff and handed my parents a permission slip.

2. I think with young kids it ought to be a mix. A kid may have no particular interest, and in that case it might be wise for a parent to introduce a few things. I've known people who have the rule their kids must have one activity, whatever that might be, at least.

3. My plans will be affordable activities that either interest me or my daughter.

4. I'd say somewhere on the spectrum between "allow them to quit" and a reasonable time frame is best, moving more towards allowing the kid to quit as she gets older.

5. I see no reason to force any kid to do something they don't like that I have to pay for. There are so many great structured and unstructured activities out there.

6.7./ I don't think a parent has the right to dream for her child. If you're convinced your child HAS to be the next Olympian/Mozart/Picasso/Tony Hawk you're too involved. You can encourage and point out a child's skill, but it's her future, not yours.

[Guest]

We go by my father's principles. My husband grew up with his dad gone for 6 months at a time and so his mom was barely making it in the home organization department - they were basically left to their own devices.

1. What age did you start your child with EAs?

Soon as they are old enough to join one. They take you in at 3 years old for stuff like martial arts and gymnastics. Musical instruments usually start at 6. Scouts and camps at 7. Mommy and me classes at the gym or the swimming pool start at newborn.

2. Was it their interest and choice? Or, was it your preference?

At the very early ages, the parents get to decide. After that, it becomes a negotiation with the child usually on the basis of finances, time, and distance.

3. If it was your preference, was your decision based on: what you took as a child, what you wish you had taken, what was the cheapest, or what your child can continue excelling in as an adult?

We follow my dad's rules for a well-rounded upbringing:

1.) Theology/Morality

We involve the children in Church Activity and Scouting

2.) Academics (Math and Science)

We send our kids to our choice of school. When they hit middle school, they picked a school whose program they are interested in.

3.) Physical Education (Martial Arts plus Team Sports plus Individual sports or an exercise program - you can use Martial Arts in lieu of individual sports or exercise program but you can't use individual sports or exercise program in lieu of Martial Arts. Team Sports is required for at least two years.)

I picked Escrima (Filipino Martial Arts) for the kids when they were 6 years old (earliest they'll take you in). The program was run terribly and the kids did not like it so we moved them to Brazilian Jiu-jitsu which was my husband's choice. They love it, so they've been doing this for almost 5 years. My kids tried soccer, baseball, and tennis. None of those stuck. So they quit after a few years.

4.) Music Education - pick an instrument to play or any music production activity

My house is full of musical instruments - piano, guitars, violin, recorders, bells (xylophone), other percussion stuff, and a karaoke machine. We basically told the kids they need to pick an instrument to learn to play. My oldest son picked the piano, his brother picked the drums. I found teachers for them because my husband and I suck at music. The piano and drum teachers will take you in at any age as long as you can sit still and pay attention for at least 30 minutes. So, both kids started when they were 4 years old.

5.) Visual Arts or Crafts - drawing, painting, sculpting, woodworking, carpentry, etc.

We went by the self-teaching method because they are taught art at school. We got them materials they need - legos, pinewoods, sketchpads, canvas, markers, crayons, watercolors, hammers, etc. etc. etc. - and set up a room in the house for all this stuff. They started with Thomas the Tank Engine when they were old enough to put two tracks together and set up this ginormous train routes. They moved up to lincoln logs and then to legos. They used to sketch and paint on the wall (painted specifically for this purpose - I got tired of cleaning up crayon and pencil marks on the walls, so I just painted the wall a magnetic blackboard color and let them have at it!). My son even won first place for the County School Board Art Competition for his grade level when he was in Kindergarten - he submitted a cityscape that was drawn in perspective!

6.) Community Involvement - Politics or Social Groups

They get this at Scouts and Church and we volunteer for community service once a year.

4. If your child doesn't appreciate the EA, do you: allow them to quit, expect them to complete a certain time frame then resign, or force them to continue?

The 6 items I listed above are REQUIRED. So, they can't quit - they just change activities. But each activity is set for one season. For example, my oldest son suck at team sports but we require team sports for 2 years (lots of lessons on teamwork and sportsmanship - especially in win/defeat scenario). So, he started with soccer, went in for 2 seasons, sucked at it, so he switched to baseball, stuck with it for 2 seasons, sucked at it. But he did his 2 years, so he was good. My other son picked drums - he has no natural musical talent, unfortunately, but music activity is required, so out of every option we presented to him, he stuck with drums.

5. If you force them to continue, what benefits do you foresee? Is there any concern that they might hate it so much that they avoid the activity outside of the EA?

See above answer.

6. What are the signs that you're too involved with the excelling in an EA and not listening to your child?

Dunno. I don't involve myself with my kids excelling in an activity. We teach our kids that "Anything worth doing is worth doing well". If they excel, good! If they don't excel, oh well. What we don't allow is being lazy at something. So that, even if you don't like it, you still have to put in 100% effort in learning it. My oldest son loves competition. He applies for piano recitals and goes to BJJ tournaments. We support him in it - take him to these out-of-state places that are holding the tournaments, cheer like mad, and display all his medals. His younger brother doesn't. That's fine. He has not been on a recital nor has he gone on tournaments. We don't count the no-score-soccer as a tournament even if they call it such.

7. If your child shows exceptional skill in their EA, do you feel it's your duty as a parent to encourage them to pursue it at a professional level? How would parents balance other responsibilities with the priorities of grooming a world-class athlete, dancer, musician, or academic (like Chess)? I was reading an article on "How To Raise an Olympian" and the funding of traveling around, entering your child into competitions, etc. -- is exhaustive!

Yes, it is the parents' duty to encourage their children to make something of themselves. Every activity my children are in are pre-cursors to professional life. It may not be professional BJJ fighter - but the BJJ is preparatory for a professional career, even if my son decides he wants to be a lawyer. The mental preparation, self-control, self-confidence, physical endurance, and strategy that you learn in BJJ applies to being a lawyer.

If my son is good enough to join the Olympics and that's what he wants to do, I'll do everything I can to support him in it. There are many ways to do this - we're going to find the way that will work with our family.

But, that's just me.

[mirkwood]

My children had no choice but to shoot guns. It's the mirkwood way.

My boys both expressed interest in playing soccer and we have encouraged them to participate as long as they have the desire.

[Bini]

1. Depends on what you mean by "extracurricular". My kids were/are homeschooled, so we create the curriculum. We started them in gymnastics and swimming at around age 5 or 6, so maybe that's what you mean.

2. Both their interest and our choice. If they showed particular interest in something, we tried to accomodate.

3. Based on all of the above, though not so much with what they might excel at as an adult.

4. In general, we allow them to take or quit an activity. The younger they are, the more lenient we are. Exceptions include:

• They must learn to swim. No bargaining there. If they don't like it, tough. (Fortunately, they all have liked it.)
  
• If we have paid for a term (e.g. gymnastics), they finish out the term.
  
• If they join a team sport, they are allowed to quit if they decide they hate it. But if they stick with it into the season, they must complete their obligation to their team -- no mid-season quitting just because they decided they don't like it any more.
  

5. They are "forced" to continue if their dropping out would negatively affect others, because it is not fair to the team that they do it for a while and then quit. And if we have invested money or resources in the activity, they are expected to derive whatever benefit they can from the activity. I am not made of money, so we expect our resources to be utilized to a reasonable extent and not just wasted.

6. Screaming at the refs. Telling them to "suck it up" if they are actually hurt (more than just a boo-boo). Worrying about whether they are excelling instead of worrying about whether they are enjoying themselves and learning.

7. If my child showed unusual skill or ability at something, I would encourage him/her to pursue it. But it is my child's choice. I will try to make it attractive, but I will not insist that s/he do something s/he doesn't want to do. In that way, I try to respect my children's agency.

I believe my oldest could have been an exceptional competitive swimmer. He was tall, slim, athletic, and showed a lot of natural ability. But he didn't really enjoy swimming. What good would I have done by pushing him to swim? In the end, the world has a lot of great swimmers. It isn't dying to have my oldest son be among them. And my oldest knows I care enough about him to allow him to determine his own destiny.

I feel strongly about that one, too. We don't have a pool at our home and we're not at a pool very frequently but knowing how to swim is an important skill -- might even be a survival skill -- you never know.

[Bini]

This is a mix of my own childhood experience and my parenting plans and philosophy:

1. I think I was in kindergarten when I started my first EA (Soccer). I played it a few years before finally telling my parents I didn't like sports. They were fine with removing me from the team. I later chose to do tumbling and a dance team in elementary school. With jr. high, I pretty much picked my own stuff and handed my parents a permission slip.

2. I think with young kids it ought to be a mix. A kid may have no particular interest, and in that case it might be wise for a parent to introduce a few things. I've known people who have the rule their kids must have one activity, whatever that might be, at least.

3. My plans will be affordable activities that either interest me or my daughter.

4. I'd say somewhere on the spectrum between "allow them to quit" and a reasonable time frame is best, moving more towards allowing the kid to quit as she gets older.

5. I see no reason to force any kid to do something they don't like that I have to pay for. There are so many great structured and unstructured activities out there.

6.7./ I don't think a parent has the right to dream for her child. If you're convinced your child HAS to be the next Olympian/Mozart/Picasso/Tony Hawk you're too involved. You can encourage and point out a child's skill, but it's her future, not yours.

That is a good point. If you're paying x amount of money into a programme and your child isn't "feeling it" -- might be a waste of money. And you're right, there are many great options out there, structured and unstructured.

[Bini]

Anatess, I tend to agree with you on making some things mandatory, regardless if the child likes it or not. That's probably due to my own upbringing with my parents, both are extremely driven and proactive, they expected great things from us kids. Both parents required us to know how to swim, and a couple of us were pretty good, I was a competitive swimmer and my brother got a water polo scholarship. My mum wanted all of us to play an instrument of one kind or another but I don't recall being able to pick -- I just remember having piano lessons and hating it -- I appreciate those lessons now as an adult. My dad insisted that we all speak French, fluent enough to converse with him, and that's been a help when I'm travelling.

[Bini]

My children had no choice but to shoot guns. It's the mirkwood way.

My boys both expressed interest in playing soccer and we have encouraged them to participate as long as they have the desire.

I would expect no less, and am glad that they did learn how to handle firearms, since they are in your household.

[Bini]

Oops, looks like there's seven questions, not six.

[Guest]

Both my kids learned to swim before they learned to walk. We have a pool and we're 10 minutes from the ocean. Water was just a given. Like going to the movies. So it wasn't an extra-curricular activity. It just is. Like learning to walk or learning to type on a keyboard.

[Bini]

Both my kids learned to swim before they learned to walk. We have a pool and we're 10 minutes from the ocean. Water was just a given. Like going to the movies. So it wasn't an extra-curricular activity. It just is. Like learning to walk or learning to type on a keyboard.

We have some old family videos of my dad tossing us kids into the water before we could walk. When we lived overseas, a couple of our homes were very close to the beach - within walking distance, and it really was just apart of life there. Everyone was sufficient in swimming.

[Guest]

We have some old family videos of my dad tossing us kids into the water before we could walk. When we lived overseas, a couple of our homes were very close to the beach - within walking distance, and it really was just apart of life there. Everyone was sufficient in swimming.

I grew up on a small island in the Philippines. Water all around. I didn't learn to swim sufficiently until I got to the US in my 20's! We always had our life preservers! My husband, on the other hand, grew up in San Diego. He was one of them surfer kids.

So when we had kids, he insisted that I don't put the babies on those arm floaties or vests. The babies just hung on to us. They learned to love the water very early on and my husband just showed them how to make underwater bubbles by putting their faces in the water and from there, they figured out how to "submarine" underwater to get somewhere.

[Backroads]

I also had swimming lessons thrust upon me. We had a professional swim school just down the street, so that's possibly why...

I appreciate it. I love swimming. And I feel it's crucial kids learn to swim. When I ran the waterfront at scout camp, I'd find these late-teens boys unable to swim. Had none of the basic skills whatsoever. So many of the high adventure activities required a swim check of such-n-such, and I'd find myself with these older boys trying to learn to swim in under a week.

Sad. Yes, kids need to learn how to swim.

I asked the gist of this topic to my husband and he says he doesn't want to feel he has to force our kids into activities... unless they are sitting around the house doing nothing in their offtime. If they can't find something productive to do, he'll find them something to do.

[mirkwood]

I agree that swimming is a vital skill. Swimming goes back as far as my memory does. I was taught at a very young age. Both my boys have learned. One took longer to get comfortable in the deep end, but this last summer gained the needed confidence.

[notquiteperfect]

Regarding what activity/ies to choose, I suggest considering their level of energy/movement and social preferences. For example, gymnastics (and other high-paced things) is great for high-energy kids, ballet for those with lower/slower movement. Team sports for extroverts and individual type things for introverts.

Hope that helps a bit.

[Guest]

Regarding what activity/ies to choose, I suggest considering their level of energy/movement and social preferences. For example, gymnastics (and other high-paced things) is great for high-energy kids, ballet for those with lower/slower movement. Team sports for extroverts and individual type things for introverts.

Hope that helps a bit.

I see what you're trying to say but I believe in the opposite. If you're an introvent, team sports is just the thing for you to learn to come out of your shell... and team sports is also good for extroverts to reign themselves in. We hold team sports as required learning experience.

And that's the thing with extracurricular activities. They are to be learning ground. If you're not getting something out of it, it's just a waste of time and money. Because then, it's just busy work for the kids. The kids would be better off biking around the neighborhood.

[notquiteperfect]

Agree to some extent. Providing opportunities to step out of the comfort zone is good but parents need to consider how much the child is already doing that and how far to have them step thus avoiding one reason why kids want to quit activities altogether.

[Irishcolleen]

I have some specific questions that maybe some of you can expand on. I'm at the beginning stages with my daughter in getting her involved with extracurricular activities and I could use some food for thought. Any other suggestions or personal experience? I'm all ears.

1. What age did you start your child with EAs?

Around 3.

2. Was it their interest and choice? Or, was it your preference?

One kid chose, one kid needed prodding.

3. If it was your preference, was your decision based on: what you took as a child, what you wish you had taken, what was the cheapest, or what your child can continue excelling in as an adult?

What the could continue to excel in as an adult.

4. If your child doesn't appreciate the EA, do you: allow them to quit, expect them to complete a certain time frame then resign, or force them to continue?

They had to continue for a specified time. After that they could quit IF they had an activity to replace it. One daughter quit piano after 3 years to pick up flute.

5. If you force them to continue, what benefits do you foresee? Is there any concern that they might hate it so much that they avoid the activity outside of the EA?

It depends on the kid. I was forced to take piano and I have no rhythm (that's why I'm Baptist- no dancing expected :) ) and I am completely tone deaf. For me it was torture and a waste of my parents money. My daughter has natural talent, she just needed time to develop. The background in piano helped her when she picked up flute- which has become her greatest joy in life.

6. What are the signs that you're too involved with the excelling in an EA and not listening to your child?

If your child is not progressing and you won't listen to reality. When one of my girls was in gymnastics another mom was sure her 3 year old was going to the Olympics. She used to yell at her kid from the parent area to work harder. The coach finally gave the mom a reality check. We pulled our daughter from gymnastics because she started experiencing joint pain. Early sports should not do damage to their health as an adult. Some parents ignore risk because they want a super-star.

7. If your child shows exceptional skill in their EA, do you feel it's your duty as a parent to encourage them to pursue it at a professional level? How would parents balance other responsibilities with the priorities of grooming a world-class athlete, dancer, musician, or academic (like Chess)? I was reading an article on "How To Raise an Olympian" and the funding of traveling around, entering your child into competitions, etc. -- is exhaustive!

The key is balance. When our girls were young we did not make them practice every day and they practiced no more than what their teacher recommended. I am a firm believer in free-time and outdoor play for children. However, as their interest grew they automatically increased their practice times on their own.

We have spent more on music lessons than we have on any expense other than mortgage and insurance. We would not go in to debt to pay for lessons, but we would make sacrifices to pay for them. One daughter is pursuing music professionally one is in college to be an aircraft mechanic. We were surprised to have a mechanic, but she is so happy and skilled in that are that we are thrilled for her. And, she will always have the ability to play for relaxation and to help at church. She also developed a lot of manual dexterity as a pianist!

We did travel to select competitions. Mostly ones affiliated with out church denomination. The competition was less stressful, and the kids knew each other from church camps, etc... so they looked forward to the social aspects of the competition and have made life-long friends in the process.

[Backroads]

Agree to some extent. Providing opportunities to step out of the comfort zone is good but parents need to consider how much the child is already doing that and how far to have them step thus avoiding one reason why kids want to quit activities altogether.

I also somewhat agree with anatess, but also with this. Yes, work on weakening strengths, but there is no sense in changing the kid's nature. In the words of Hitch, "if you're outgoing, be outgoing. If you're shy, be shy." Is it more important to try to balance the kid or to nurture talents and interests?

I'm sure there's a spectrum for that, too; from what I know of anatess, she is bigger on achievement and learning for her kids than I'll probably be (I like the "slow-parenting" camp) and that's fine and rather admirable.

Edited February 20, 2014 by Backroads

[Guest]

I'm sure there's a spectrum for that, too; from what I know of anatess, she is bigger on achievement and learning for her kids than I'll probably be (I like the "slow-parenting" camp) and that's fine and rather admirable.

This is accurate. I guess it's an Asian thing. American culture is totally wierd. They tend to think they're already great. Like - they are born great. So much so that they have titles like, "The best athlete in the world", but then somebody in England is better, so the title changes to, "The best athlete in the American Continent". But then somebody in Canada is better, so the title changes to, "The best athlete in the USA". But then somebody in California is better, so the title changes to "The best athlete in Florida". But then somebody in Miami is better, so the title changes to "The best table tennis player in Florida"... So instead of fighting harder to be the best, they just change the meaning of what it means to be best so they can qualify for the title. And if they can't find something to be the best at, then they just go ahead and give a trophy for "participation".

Asian culture is different - they tend to think they have to earn the privilege of being great. So everybody has to bust their butt to make something of themselves. Because, it's either you're one of the best, or you're not. There's no trophy for participation. And so you come home with anything but an A... you get to bust your butt harder.

[Backroads]

This is accurate. I guess it's an Asian thing. American culture is totally wierd. They tend to think they're already great. Like - they are born great. So much so that they have titles like, "The best athlete in the world", but then somebody in England is better, so the title changes to, "The best athlete in the American Continent". But then somebody in Canada is better, so the title changes to, "The best athlete in the USA". But then somebody in California is better, so the title changes to "The best athlete in Florida". But then somebody in Miami is better, so the title changes to "The best table tennis player in Florida"... So instead of fighting harder to be the best, they just change the meaning of what it means to be best so they can qualify for the title. And if they can't find something to be the best at, then they just go ahead and give a trophy for "participation".

Asian culture is different - they tend to think they have to earn the privilege of being great. So everybody has to bust their butt to make something of themselves. Because, it's either you're one of the best, or you're not. There's no trophy for participation. And so you come home with anything but an A... you get to bust your butt harder.

I agree, that does bug me about American culture. I'm certainly anti-participation trophy myself (I recall getting them as a very young child and thinking "Why do I have this? This is stupid. I want my snow cone!).

I suppose my philosophy is more along the lines of "Why do you have to be the best if you're plain not interested?"

But, yes, I do admire that achievement focus of Asian culture.

[Guest]

I agree, that does bug me about American culture. I'm certainly anti-participation trophy myself (I recall getting them as a very young child and thinking "Why do I have this? This is stupid. I want my snow cone!).

I suppose my philosophy is more along the lines of "Why do you have to be the best if you're plain not interested?"

But, yes, I do admire that achievement focus of Asian culture.

Oh yes, you don't set your kid up to fail. So demanding he be the best at something he has no interest in is stupid.

But, this is not how I look at Extra-Curricular Activities. Extra-Curricular Activities for me are activities that develop certain facets of your person so you can be the best at whatever it is you are interested in being the best at. Make sense?

So, for example - Martial Arts. Martial Arts is a required activity in my house. Martial Arts builds certain facets of your person such as self-control, mastering your body, physical endurance, self-confidence, spatial awareness, and self-defense. All these things are very important if you want to be the best at, say, being a lawyer. You can't be the best lawyer if you're scared of getting beat up, or if you have no self-confidence, or if you don't have the physical endurance to go through the rigors of law school, etc. etc. etc.

Another example - Music. Music is a required activity in my house. Music builds certain facets of your person such as identifying patterns, maintaining rhythm, using all senses and fine motor movement in multiple muscle groups simultaneously, language adeptness, and creativity. All these things are very important if you want to be the best at, say... being a lawyer...

So, I'm not driving them to be the best Martial Artist, or the best Musician, etc., unless that's what they want to do when they grow up. But, I'm going to drive them to be the best Lawyer if that's what they want to do... and Martial Arts and Music are part of that training to be the best Lawyer they can be.

Edited February 20, 2014 by anatess