Addictions

[The Folk Prophet]

It's pretty complicated when it comes to diseases of the mind. When it comes to diseases of the body, it's pretty straight forward. If you get a hand cut off, it doesn't have anything to do with your spirit. But as a man thinketh, so is he...so...how does that work if a "disease" of the mind causes that man to think badly. Clearly if it's entirely physical --- literally a physical disease and nothing more, then it is unrelated to the persons spirit and thus unrelated to the person's accountability. But it isn't that straight forward when it comes to brain and thinking issues. They are, clearly, sometimes at least partially (and perhaps sometimes fully) caused by choice, habit, etc.

 

OCD is is a prime example. Is it sometimes a physical mental disorder? Yes. Is is sometimes just bad choices leading to further bad choices that lead to habits and messed up thinking? Yes. The physical result may be the same. The OCD person in one case may physically be the same as the other. But the core cause, and the choices that led or did not lead a person to become one way or another may have stemmed from very different things - one being accountable, the other not. (Incidentally, this is also my view of homosexuality and the choice/no choice issue).

 

I don't think we can or should be saying what is and is not spiritual and physical in black-and-white terms. To do so is judgment that only the Lord can make. We simply cannot know.

 

Incidentally SS, I think you're entirely misinterpreting Bednar and the meaning of having a dual nature. It does not mean that we have two natures that are distinct and separate. Our physical and our spiritual are one and the same. Being of a dual nature is no different than being, for example, of mixed race. Yes, both races are part of us. But they are not separate. We are a whole consisting of the different contributing factors..

[Seminarysnoozer]

 

However I don't blame my body for things like that or things like: Pride, arrogance, ignorance, envy, selfishness, hautiness, vanity, wrongful anger, hostility, wrongful judging, lusting etc. These all come from Satan's deception and our own character flaws that need to be overcome in this world.

 

They are Satan's tools to bind us and possess us with. But it is our character flaws for these Satanic ordinances / attributes / tools that we succumb too. We have been conditioned and indoctrinated in this world (from our birth) that Satan dominates, that these are natural and human / normal feelings.

 

 When one breaks the worldly conditioning that has taken place in them, they will be able to see Satan's dominion of this world in a whole different light. God Bless!

I only blaim myself for choices that I make and that I have been given agency over.

 

The body is the medium in which Satan's temptations come to us.  Can they also come from evil spirits?  Sure.  But the majority of the day to day battle we face is the choice between carnal, bodily passions vs listening to the influences of the spirit.  Satan has been given dominion over the things of this world for a short time.  Our physical body is made from the dust of this world and therefore Satan has access to our spirits via our bodies. The mortal body has this characteristic.  The resurrected or perfected body will not. 

 

Christ fasted for 40 days to prepare for his ministry and to gain spiritual dominance over His body and when that was over Satan tempted him via bodily passions.  Christ had prepared Himself for that by not listening to the body drives for 40 days. 

 

Christ taught this principle of first follow spiritual influences over bodily ones; Matthew 6; "31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?

 32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.

 33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

 34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."

 

We don't have to adopt the drives of the body because the body will do that for itself, it will "take thought for the things of itself", what shall we eat, drink etc. Our concern should be on the spiritual.  In other words, once a person thinks they can control the drives of the body that way, they can't.  We accept it as part of this life's experience and God will take care of it in the end. 

[Seminarysnoozer]

It's pretty complicated when it comes to diseases of the mind. When it comes to diseases of the body, it's pretty straight forward. If you get a hand cut off, it doesn't have anything to do with your spirit. But as a man thinketh, so is he...so...how does that work if a "disease" of the mind causes that man to think badly. Clearly if it's entirely physical --- literally a physical disease and nothing more, then it is unrelated to the persons spirit and thus unrelated to the person's accountability. But it isn't that straight forward when it comes to brain and thinking issues. They are, clearly, sometimes at least partially (and perhaps sometimes fully) caused by choice, habit, etc.

 

OCD is is a prime example. Is it sometimes a physical mental disorder? Yes. Is is sometimes just bad choices leading to further bad choices that lead to habits and messed up thinking? Yes. The physical result may be the same. The OCD person in one case may physically be the same as the other. But the core cause, and the choices that led or did not lead a person to become one way or another may have stemmed from very different things - one being accountable, the other not. (Incidentally, this is also my view of homosexuality and the choice/no choice issue).

 

I don't think we can or should be saying what is and is not spiritual and physical in black-and-white terms. To do so is judgment that only the Lord can make. We simply cannot know.

 

Incidentally SS, I think you're entirely misinterpreting Bednar and the meaning of having a dual nature. It does not mean that we have two natures that are distinct and separate. Our physical and our spiritual are one and the same. Being of a dual nature is no different than being, for example, of mixed race. Yes, both races are part of us. But they are not separate. We are a whole consisting of the different contributing factors..

David O. McKay; " Each of us has two contrasting natures: the physical and the spiritual.

Man is a dual being, and his life a plan of God. That is the first fundamental fact to keep in mind. ...

The question, then, is: Which will give the more abundant life—pampering our physical nature or developing our spiritual selves? Is not that the real problem? Indulgence in appetites and desires of the physical man satisfy but for the moment and may lead to unhappiness, misery, and possible degradation; spiritual achievements give “joy not to be repented of.”

 

President David O. McKay (1873–1970) taught that because of the Fall we have a dual nature: “One, related to the earthly or animal life; the other, akin to the Divine. Whether a man remains satisfied within what we designate the animal world, satisfied with what the animal world will give him, yielding without effort to the whims of his appetites and passions and slipping farther and farther into the realm of indulgence, or whether, through self-mastery, he rises toward intellectual, moral, and spiritual enjoyments depends upon the kind of choice he makes every day, nay, every hour of his life.”

 

Elder Melvin J. Ballard (1873–1939) of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles taught that “all the assaults that the enemy of our souls will make to capture us will be through the flesh, because it is made up of the unredeemed earth, and he has power over the elements of the earth. The approach he makes to us will be through the lusts, the appetites, the ambitions of the flesh. All the help that comes to us from the Lord to aid us in this struggle will come to us through the spirit that dwells within this mortal body. So these two mighty forces are operating upon us through these two channels." ..."

“… If you would have a strong spirit which has dominance over the body, you must see to it that your spirit receives spiritual food and spiritual exercise. …

“The man or woman who is taking neither spiritual food nor spiritual exercise will presently become a spiritual weakling, and the flesh will be master. Whoever therefore is obtaining both spiritual food and exercise will be in control over this body and will keep it subject unto the will of God.”

 

Elder Ballard, President McKay, Elder Bednar, Paul etc. have stated it clearly that there is one and the other, the spirit and the body.  How can one dominate the other if they are the same? How can one master the other if they are the same? 

 

The "soul" is the combination of the two entities, the spirit and the body.  Our current body is corrupted and will turn to dust in the end, the spirit remains.  After this life we will receive a body in which the state you are describing will occur, where the body and spirit are one.  That is not our current state.  It is our goal and purpose to have them be one but that is not the condition of the probationary state. 

 

 

From the Doctrines of the Gospel teacher Manual Chapter 8 (teachings of the LDS church):"The term dual nature refers to our opposing qualities. On the one hand, we are spirit children of God, innocent when we come into the world and endowed with the potential to become divine (see Supporting Statements E on p. 21 of the student manual). On the other hand, we also have bodies of flesh and bones and are driven by physical urges and demands (see Supporting Statements E on p. 21 of the student manual). The Apostle Paul recognized the conflicting spiritual and physical aspects of man (see Romans 7:15–25; Galatians 5:16–17). Failure to master physical urges results in the emergence of what King Benjamin called the “natural man” (Mosiah 3:19)."

 

This is the picture that goes with that lesson;

 

[Traveler]

First I want to welcome all that have entered into the discussion.  There are a couple of points I would like to make.  Snoozer makes some very interesting points.  In my discussion with her - I admit to pushing the limits somewhat.  This has been for two reasons.  One is to determine if Snoozer recognizes any complicity in our spirits when our spirits are tempted - especially when an individual turns physically away from temptation but then turns back to indulge.   The second reason is to explorer my own thinking to see if I can find logic to adjust some of my thinking. 

 

I have wondered how much a spirit affects the physical and how much the physical affects the spiritual.   It is my personal opinion that such relationship between the spiritual and physical is more dynamic than static.  But this is based in my own experience and I seem to be able to alter this condition through discipline of both what I think is my spiritual self and also my physical self.  Snoozer seems to have experience somewhat different than mine.  But I have been unable to drill down with Snoozer to understand her thinking beyond theological interpretation.  I am inclined to think that most of her responses to me have been mostly defensive to to her position.  However, I am not sure.  But because she has a very different opinion than that which I am accustomed I think there is something to be gleaned if I can just get past what I think is a defensive posture to questions that push the limits of the discussion.  I admit openly this is something I tend to create when I ask aggressive questions though it is not my intention - It is my curiosity that pushes the envelop of some posters tolerance.   But Snoozer has been amazingly kind and understanding of me.

[The Folk Prophet]

David O. McKay; " Each of us has two contrasting natures: the physical and the spiritual.

Man is a dual being, and his life a plan of God. That is the first fundamental fact to keep in mind. ...

The question, then, is: Which will give the more abundant life—pampering our physical nature or developing our spiritual selves? Is not that the real problem? Indulgence in appetites and desires of the physical man satisfy but for the moment and may lead to unhappiness, misery, and possible degradation; spiritual achievements give “joy not to be repented of.”

 

President David O. McKay (1873–1970) taught that because of the Fall we have a dual nature: “One, related to the earthly or animal life; the other, akin to the Divine. Whether a man remains satisfied within what we designate the animal world, satisfied with what the animal world will give him, yielding without effort to the whims of his appetites and passions and slipping farther and farther into the realm of indulgence, or whether, through self-mastery, he rises toward intellectual, moral, and spiritual enjoyments depends upon the kind of choice he makes every day, nay, every hour of his life.”

 

Elder Melvin J. Ballard (1873–1939) of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles taught that “all the assaults that the enemy of our souls will make to capture us will be through the flesh, because it is made up of the unredeemed earth, and he has power over the elements of the earth. The approach he makes to us will be through the lusts, the appetites, the ambitions of the flesh. All the help that comes to us from the Lord to aid us in this struggle will come to us through the spirit that dwells within this mortal body. So these two mighty forces are operating upon us through these two channels." ..."

“… If you would have a strong spirit which has dominance over the body, you must see to it that your spirit receives spiritual food and spiritual exercise. …

“The man or woman who is taking neither spiritual food nor spiritual exercise will presently become a spiritual weakling, and the flesh will be master. Whoever therefore is obtaining both spiritual food and exercise will be in control over this body and will keep it subject unto the will of God.”

 

Elder Ballard, President McKay, Elder Bednar, Paul etc. have stated it clearly that there is one and the other, the spirit and the body.  How can one dominate the other if they are the same? How can one master the other if they are the same? 

 

The "soul" is the combination of the two entities, the spirit and the body.  Our current body is corrupted and will turn to dust in the end, the spirit remains.  After this life we will receive a body in which the state you are describing will occur, where the body and spirit are one.  That is not our current state.  It is our goal and purpose to have them be one but that is not the condition of the probationary state. 

 

 

From the Doctrines of the Gospel teacher Manual Chapter 8 (teachings of the LDS church):"The term dual nature refers to our opposing qualities. On the one hand, we are spirit children of God, innocent when we come into the world and endowed with the potential to become divine (see Supporting Statements E on p. 21 of the student manual). On the other hand, we also have bodies of flesh and bones and are driven by physical urges and demands (see Supporting Statements E on p. 21 of the student manual). The Apostle Paul recognized the conflicting spiritual and physical aspects of man (see Romans 7:15–25; Galatians 5:16–17). Failure to master physical urges results in the emergence of what King Benjamin called the “natural man” (Mosiah 3:19)."

 

This is the picture that goes with that lesson;

 

 

You certainly don't need to restate the exact same things you have again and again. I read them the first time.

 

I still maintain you are reading things into the meaning that are not inherent.

[Aussie3]

Just-a-Guy, I don't understand how me being against unrighteous psychiatry and psycho-tropic abuse has anything to do with cardio surgery? I know that there are wonderful surgeons throughout the world. Australia was home to one of the worlds most leading eye surgeons, who did free eye surgery for the indigenise Australian's and other people from third world countries. His name was Dr Fred Hollows. We also had another of the worlds most renowned cardio surgeons. His name was  Dr Victor Chang. Wonderful men!

 

It is psychiatry (an unmeasurable science) I have the main problem with or the over prescribing of medications or using medications that are not designed to be taken for years and years, over years and years. You may think that that it fine and that's your choice. However considering that the rest of the world knows that women from Utah call Prozac (Vitamin P) should be an indication  (it has even been detected in the water ways of America)  that America and the rest of the world have serious issues when it comes to being over medicated, especially when it comes to pain killers / opioids and psycho-tropics. 

 

Back in the 1960's they were going to scrap psychiatry because it was an unmeasurable science and had lost its respect in the academic world. However the Rockefeller's funded it through several universities in America. As a result it sprang back. Now it is a multibillion dollar conglomerate, making money hand over fist. With no thought to the millions of people that have been negatively affected by this flawed pseudo science.

 

If you would like to educate yourself on these problems your could watch the DVD " The Marketing of Madness" or study into Orthomolecular Science. You could also down load the article written by Whitaker. R . " The case against antipsychotics a 50 year record of doing more harm than good." Or there is another article by Bruce .G . Charlton " Why are Doctors still prescribing neuroleptics." In these articles look at the referencing. There are heaps of legitimate articles to be found out there.

 

Another article that was written by an LDS psychologist's husband ( Ron Poulton) would be a very interesting article for you to read. I know that there are some really caring counsellors and it can be beneficial to talk about once problems and try to beak the conditioning and indoctrination that people have been subjected to in this society. But this cannot be done when one is doped up to the eye balls on psycho-tropics and are being told that the evil spirits they hear and see everyday are just in their imagination. When I was doing my degree in Psychology the students from other sciences would always yell out "Psychology is not a science it is flawed, it is a pseudo science." They were definitely right about that.

 

As far Brigham Young is concerned I feel what he was mainly talking about when he said Remedies where herbs, D&C 42:43 And whosoever among you are sick, and have not faith to be healed, but believe, shall be nourished with all tenderness, with herbs and mild food, and that not by the hand of an enemy (Big Pharma) I mean he was the Prophet who discovered the desert plant which now is called Brigham tea. This tea apparently is good for respiratory illnesses, UTI's, Asthma, flues etc. I am sure you would know all about that being from Utah.

 

So I am not against surgeons and other legitimate medical care! However what I feel the church leaders do sometimes when it comes to this multibillion dollar industry (big Pharma)  that is run by thugs, is what I will do for you. I will leave you with this scripture found in Mathew 5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, while thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer and thou be cast into prison (Poor Joseph Smith).

[Traveler]

Some many years ago I became acquainted with a lay Buddhist monk through my work and travels.  This individual was so fascinating and unique that I was drawn to them out of curiosity.  He was born and raised  in Germany as a scientist and devout Lutheran.  However, science became ever more conflicting in his religious life and he became an agnostic borderline atheists.   Over the years he just could not depart from spiritual yearnings and his work took in the Asia where be became converted to Buddhism and spiritually drawn to meditation.   In our exchange of ideas I invited him to our LDS meetings and he invited me to meditation at a Buddhist temple. 

 

For years, I had joked that my cycling was my zen and I was surprised in how accurate that thought is.  The opportunity of meditation to a Buddhist is to "look inward" and become "aware".  I discovered some most interesting meditation possibilities that involve scripture and doctrine that for many years confused me.   I also for the first time looked deep into who and what I am.  With my LDS background I have attempted to become "aware" of what is physically me and what is spiritually me.  I have also found interesting insights (perhaps revelation???) while meditating while cycling especially on longer rides.  There seems to be an rather interesting integration of the physical with the spiritual as I become inwardly aware.  My heart rate and breathing are in rhythm with physical efforts and I enter what we often call a second wind which is a great physically exerting experience.   But more interesting - I spiritually seem to become connected to my environment - not just trees and rocks that surround me - but to an eternal struggle between good and evil.  While I am thinking on a passage of scripture or a point of doctrine the thoughts become connected and I glean glimpses of connections to physical or scientific and spiritual or eternal connections.  It seems as though everything comes together in harmony and sense outside of conflict but in peace and a most interesting (to me) feeling of joy and goodness.

 

I have come to believe that many live a conflicting life between the physical and spiritual that is not necessary.  But I also believe that there is a dimension that is most difficult to explain without some connection to actual experience.  I will use as example what I experienced while cycling and meditating the difference between good and evil.  The difference seems to be to be like the difference in a journey from where we are to two quite different destinations.  The journey to good or to evil begins with the first step toward one destination over the other.

 

The first or next step to the evil destination is always a step of selfishness or self desire.  It is the spiritual thought centered around me, I want, I need or I expect.  To me the choice of evil is always begun with the spiritual thought of self indulgence.  Granted the draw is often physical but for me it is not always physical but form time to time the draw is spiritual but always to self benefit and self desire.

 

The first or next step to the good destination is always the step of self discipline and self denial.  That is - a forced step of discipline that denies selfishness.  This is difficult to realize without the understanding of others and the "needs" of others.  So in essence self denial and self discipline seems to be best connected when the benefit of others is the center of focus.  Interestingly the first step towards the good destination seem to be the spiritual thought and connection to others.

 

Therefore I see the choice between good and evil a spiritual choice of opposite or opposing directions towards self benefit or benefiting others.

 

The result of selfish and self indulging choices takes a person step by step until each following step become more and more addictive.  If these selfish and addictive steps are continued the person become more in bondage of their addiction.  Having realized that I was taking such steps I realized that both physically and spiritually I was being drawn into bondage.  The only way out was to first spiritually discipline my will (repentance) and then for a physical discipline or repentance.  And as I have said with others centered and not self centered.  To me the physical and spiritual are like boats on water - what is happening to one is affecting the other.  Try as I may in personal experiments - I cannot get one (spiritual or physical) to go in a direction without the other.

 

So as I read scripture and listen to our leaders I try to make sense of what they are saying with my experience.  If I cannot make sense of what I am learning from others with my own experience - I do not seem to be able to personalize and make use of such knowledge and understanding.

 

I realize that others do not always have my experiences.  And I can read anything they read but unless they can show me how such things touch and effect them and if they do not know how they are effected through their experience - how can they think such information and knowledge could effect or change my thinking or understanding by applying such to my experiences?

[The Folk Prophet]

Just-a-Guy, I don't understand how me being against unrighteous psychiatry and psycho-tropic abuse has anything to do with cardio surgery? I know that there are wonderful surgeons throughout the world. Australia was home to one of the worlds most leading eye surgeons, who did free eye surgery for the indigenise Australian's and other people from third world countries. His name was Dr Fred Hollows. We also had another of the worlds most renowned cardio surgeons. His name was  Dr Victor Chang. Wonderful men!

 

It is psychiatry (an unmeasurable science) I have the main problem with or the over prescribing of medications or using medications that are not designed to be taken for years and years, over years and years. You may think that that it fine and that's your choice. However considering that the rest of the world knows that women from Utah call Prozac (Vitamin P) should be an indication  (it has even been detected in the water ways of America)  that America and the rest of the world have serious issues when it comes to being over medicated, especially when it comes to pain killers / opioids and psycho-tropics. 

 

Back in the 1960's they were going to scrap psychiatry because it was an unmeasurable science and had lost its respect in the academic world. However the Rockefeller's funded it through several universities in America. As a result it sprang back. Now it is a multibillion dollar conglomerate, making money hand over fist. With no thought to the millions of people that have been negatively affected by this flawed pseudo science.

 

If you would like to educate yourself on these problems your could watch the DVD " The Marketing of Madness" or study into Orthomolecular Science. You could also down load the article written by Whitaker. R . " The case against antipsychotics a 50 year record of doing more harm than good." Or there is another article by Bruce .G . Charlton " Why are Doctors still prescribing neuroleptics." In these articles look at the referencing. There are heaps of legitimate articles to be found out there.

 

Another article that was written by an LDS psychologist's husband ( Ron Poulton) would be a very interesting article for you to read. I know that there are some really caring counsellors and it can be beneficial to talk about once problems and try to beak the conditioning and indoctrination that people have been subjected to in this society. But this cannot be done when one is doped up to the eye balls on psycho-tropics and are being told that the evil spirits they hear and see everyday are just in their imagination. When I was doing my degree in Psychology the students from other sciences would always yell out "Psychology is not a science it is flawed, it is a pseudo science." They were definitely right about that.

 

As far Brigham Young is concerned I feel what he was mainly talking about when he said Remedies where herbs, D&C 42:43 And whosoever among you are sick, and have not faith to be healed, but believe, shall be nourished with all tenderness, with herbs and mild food, and that not by the hand of an enemy (Big Pharma) I mean he was the Prophet who discovered the desert plant which now is called Brigham tea. This tea apparently is good for respiratory illnesses, UTI's, Asthma, flues etc. I am sure you would know all about that being from Utah.

 

So I am not against surgeons and other legitimate medical care! However what I feel the church leaders do sometimes when it comes to this multibillion dollar industry (big Pharma)  that is run by thugs, is what I will do for you. I will leave you with this scripture found in Mathew 5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, while thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer and thou be cast into prison (Poor Joseph Smith).

 

What, are you secretly a Scientologist? Tom Cruise?

[Seminarysnoozer]

Just-a-Guy, I don't understand how me being against unrighteous psychiatry and psycho-tropic abuse has anything to do with cardio surgery? I know that there are wonderful surgeons throughout the world. Australia was home to one of the worlds most leading eye surgeons, who did free eye surgery for the indigenise Australian's and other people from third world countries. His name was Dr Fred Hollows. We also had another of the worlds most renowned cardio surgeons. His name was  Dr Victor Chang. Wonderful men!

 

It is psychiatry (an unmeasurable science) I have the main problem with or the over prescribing of medications or using medications that are not designed to be taken for years and years, over years and years. You may think that that it fine and that's your choice. However considering that the rest of the world knows that women from Utah call Prozac (Vitamin P) should be an indication  (it has even been detected in the water ways of America)  that America and the rest of the world have serious issues when it comes to being over medicated, especially when it comes to pain killers / opioids and psycho-tropics. 

 

Back in the 1960's they were going to scrap psychiatry because it was an unmeasurable science and had lost its respect in the academic world. However the Rockefeller's funded it through several universities in America. As a result it sprang back. Now it is a multibillion dollar conglomerate, making money hand over fist. With no thought to the millions of people that have been negatively affected by this flawed pseudo science.

 

If you would like to educate yourself on these problems your could watch the DVD " The Marketing of Madness" or study into Orthomolecular Science. You could also down load the article written by Whitaker. R . " The case against antipsychotics a 50 year record of doing more harm than good." Or there is another article by Bruce .G . Charlton " Why are Doctors still prescribing neuroleptics." In these articles look at the referencing. There are heaps of legitimate articles to be found out there.

 

Another article that was written by an LDS psychologist's husband ( Ron Poulton) would be a very interesting article for you to read. I know that there are some really caring counsellors and it can be beneficial to talk about once problems and try to beak the conditioning and indoctrination that people have been subjected to in this society. But this cannot be done when one is doped up to the eye balls on psycho-tropics and are being told that the evil spirits they hear and see everyday are just in their imagination. When I was doing my degree in Psychology the students from other sciences would always yell out "Psychology is not a science it is flawed, it is a pseudo science." They were definitely right about that.

 

As far Brigham Young is concerned I feel what he was mainly talking about when he said Remedies where herbs, D&C 42:43 And whosoever among you are sick, and have not faith to be healed, but believe, shall be nourished with all tenderness, with herbs and mild food, and that not by the hand of an enemy (Big Pharma) I mean he was the Prophet who discovered the desert plant which now is called Brigham tea. This tea apparently is good for respiratory illnesses, UTI's, Asthma, flues etc. I am sure you would know all about that being from Utah.

 

So I am not against surgeons and other legitimate medical care! However what I feel the church leaders do sometimes when it comes to this multibillion dollar industry (big Pharma)  that is run by thugs, is what I will do for you. I will leave you with this scripture found in Mathew 5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, while thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer and thou be cast into prison (Poor Joseph Smith).

Pain is just as immeasurable, so are you against doctors prescribing pain medications as well?

 

Doctors avoid going into fields such as Psychiatry because it is a lot or work to get paid so little.  Insurance companies reimburse more for a doctor to do something over spending time talking with a patient.  After a doctor has spent 10 to 12 years of education beyond High School, they do not want to do a job that pays the same as a plumber.  In other words, as great as the solution sounds, to counsel patients about their problems as opposed to just prescribing medications, it is never going to happen until doctors get paid more for their time. Down the road, the brightest students are not going to want to go into the field of medicine, which I think is already starting to happen.  Your doctor is not going to be the "top of the class" student as there are easier ways to make money for someone with that amount of education.

 

The high cost of medication stems from the issue of class action law suits raising the cost to produce medications.  It comes from the practice of making money from being contentious = lawyers.  Of course, now, big Pharma, pushes that further but the original driving of the cost is from legal issues - that is what put money in the pot to be greedy over in the first place.  If the side effects of herbs could be pursued by lawyers the same way prescribed medications are then the cost of herbs would sky-rocket and be regulated a lot tighter putting money into the lawyers and politicians' pockets. But since herbal "remedies" cannot make any real medical claims, lawyers cannot go after them.  The FDA has to approve a drug for a particular use before doctors can prescribe it without running risk of being sued. The cost of medicine has a linear relationship to how much lawyers get paid as well as the risk for large law suits.

 

Here is one explanation for the cost of medicine; "Drug companies are like other companies in that they manufacture products that must be sold for a profit in order for the company to survive and grow. They are different from some companies because the drug business is very risky. For instance, only one out of every ten thousand discovered compounds actually becomes an approved drug for sale. Much expense is incurred in the early phases of development of compounds that will not become approved drugs. In addition, it takes about 7 to 10 years and an average cost of 500 million dollars to develop each new drug. This money is spent before the FDA approves the drug, and if the drug is not approved, the company loses the money. These expenses must be covered by the revenue from compounds that successfully become approved drugs. Moreover, only 3 out of every 20 approved drugs bring in sufficient revenue to cover their developmental costs, and only 1 out of every 3 approved drugs generates enough money to cover the development costs of previous failures. This means that for a drug company to survive, it needs to discover a blockbuster (billion-dollar drug) every few years. After a drug is approved, millions of dollars are spent on marketing in educating healthcare providers and conducting post-marketing studies. Drug companies spend a lot of money on marketing because of the stiff competition they face from other drug companies for their drugs, and in order to develop each drug's highest revenue-generating potential. Given the poor odds of discovering another successful drug, it is more efficient to maximize the returns on a drug that is already on the market through advertising. In this sense, drug companies are no different than any other type of company."

 

In 2012 the FDAs budget was 4.63 billion.

 

I think all of this cost is from what I think you are saying, that people don't take responsibility for their own health.  They would rather blame some bad drug or some bad doctor for any poor outcomes even though the success of any particular treatment is never 100% (including the success of herbs). The issue is that nobody gets sued when herbs don't work. 

[Traveler]

....

 

I think all of this cost is from what I think you are saying, that people don't take responsibility for their own health.  They would rather blame some bad drug or some bad doctor for any poor outcomes even though the success of any particular treatment is never 100% (including the success of herbs). The issue is that nobody gets sued when herbs don't work. 

 

But isn't being concerned with one's own physical health; at least in part, being carnal - physically minded - natural man?

[pam]

But isn't being concerned with one's own physical health; at least in part, being carnal - physically minded - natural man?

 

Isn't carnal more related to physical sexual needs?

 

Can't you want to be in good physical health without sexual needs being a part of it?

[Traveler]

Isn't carnal more related to physical sexual needs?

 

Can't you want to be in good physical health without sexual needs being a part of it?

 

It can be.  My question was pointed to Seminary that differentiates distinctly on the physical verses the spiritual.  I hoped she would respond to the question that wonders if all physical concerns are part of being physically minded - in contrast to being spiritually minded.  I believe that it is possible even good to integrate the physical with the spiritual - I am exploring Seminary's view in this matter because It appears to me that in her mind that any integration of spiritual and physical is evil to the core.   But from her posting I wonder if it is possible to have a spiritual connection to the physical.

[Seminarysnoozer]

But isn't being concerned with one's own physical health; at least in part, being carnal - physically minded - natural man?

It always depends on what is in a person's heart, their purpose.  Everything should be done with an eye single to the glory of God. Nobody does that perfectly and so there will always be a slight "natural man" motivation in almost everything we do.  Carnally minded vs spiritually minded is not an either-or thing, it is, most of the time a combination of the two influences. it is a spectrum of motivating factors.  It is similar to whether someone does the right thing out of fear of punishment vs loving God. 

 

I have friends that spend half the day in the gym so they can work on their appearance which affects their party lifestyle.  I have other friends who go to the gym to keep their blood sugars low and work on their heart health. 

 

I have some friends that spend a good portion of their day making sure all of their food is "organic" (whatever that means) and eating herbal suppliments etc. spending lots of money in that way all for "health" but have nothing left over to take their family on a vacation and complain about the cost of clothes, can't pay for medical visits or the dentist etc.

 

Even Jesus told Mary's sister to stop cleaning the house and focus on the more important issues. 

 

If God tells us to take care of our "temple", our bodies, in a certain way and we do it for that reason then that is not being carnally minded.

[Traveler]

It always depends on what is in a person's heart, their purpose.  Everything should be done with an eye single to the glory of God. Nobody does that perfectly and so there will always be a slight "natural man" motivation in almost everything we do.  Carnally minded vs spiritually minded is not an either-or thing, it is, most of the time a combination of the two influences. it is a spectrum of motivating factors.  It is similar to whether someone does the right thing out of fear of punishment vs loving God. 

 

I have friends that spend half the day in the gym so they can work on their appearance which affects their party lifestyle.  I have other friends who go to the gym to keep their blood sugars low and work on their heart health. 

 

I have some friends that spend a good portion of their day making sure all of their food is "organic" (whatever that means) and eating herbal suppliments etc. spending lots of money in that way all for "health" but have nothing left over to take their family on a vacation and complain about the cost of clothes, can't pay for medical visits or the dentist etc.

 

Even Jesus told Mary's sister to stop cleaning the house and focus on the more important issues. 

 

If God tells us to take care of our "temple", our bodies, in a certain way and we do it for that reason then that is not being carnally minded.

 

You did not answer the question - obviously a party life style is not a focus on good physical health.  I asked a very simple question - in your view is an intelligent focus on good physical health the essence of the natural man, contrary to the spirit - which I seem to understand from you are two separate, distinct and opposing natures within us. 

[Seminarysnoozer]

You did not answer the question - obviously a party life style is not a focus on good physical health.  I asked a very simple question - in your view is an intelligent focus on good physical health the essence of the natural man, contrary to the spirit - which I seem to understand from you are two separate, distinct and opposing natures within us. 

Again it depends on the purpose.  An assassin who wants to have great physical health so he can kill more effectively is listening to the drives of the natural man and not the spirit.  An assassin can take an "intelligent" approach to good health, eating right, regular exercise, sleeping well, etc but it is always the motive that describes the source of the action.

 

God does not receive works that are not done with the correct intent, even if they are "good".  Moroni 7; "5 For I remember the word of God which saith by their works ye shall know them; for if their works be good, then they are good also.

 6 For behold, God hath said a man being evil cannot do that which is good; for if he offereth a gift, or prayeth unto God, except he shall do it with real intent it profiteth him nothing.

 7 For behold, it is not counted unto him for righteousness.

 8 For behold, if a man being evil giveth a gift, he doeth it grudgingly; wherefore it is counted unto him the same as if he had retained the gift; wherefore he is counted evil before God.

 9 And likewise also is it counted evil unto a man, if he shall pray and not with real intent of heart; yea, and it profiteth him nothing, for God receiveth none such.

 10 Wherefore, a man being evil cannot do that which is good; neither will he give a good gift."

 

Jesus describes the importance of the motive over the act; Matthew 23; "25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

 26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

 27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness.

 28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity."

 

If we cleanse the inside, spiritual motives, then the outside can be cleansed.  Not the other way around!

 

I don't think I can say it any more clearly than 1 Samuel 16; " 7 But the Lord said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the Lord seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart."

 

A person can do everything "right" by chance, tradition, luck, having a good "nature" but if it is not done with the right intent (heart) it means nothing.

 

Lets say I live a clean life because I don't want to be reincarnated as a mosquito in the next life; I don't kill, I am kind to my neighbors, I don't use bad language, I serve others, I keep my body healthy etc.  You want to say that is the same as someone doing it because the have faith in their Savior and are following His promptings?   It is not the same, God looks at the heart (the purpose), the desires of the heart. 

[Traveler]

Again it depends on the purpose.  An assassin who wants to have great physical health so he can kill more effectively is listening to the drives of the natural man and not the spirit.  An assassin can take an "intelligent" approach to good health, eating right, regular exercise, sleeping well, etc but it is always the motive that describes the source of the action.

 

God does not receive works that are not done with the correct intent, even if they are "good".  Moroni 7; "5 For I remember the word of God which saith by their works ye shall know them; for if their works be good, then they are good also.

 6 For behold, God hath said a man being evil cannot do that which is good; for if he offereth a gift, or prayeth unto God, except he shall do it with real intent it profiteth him nothing.

 7 For behold, it is not counted unto him for righteousness.

 8 For behold, if a man being evil giveth a gift, he doeth it grudgingly; wherefore it is counted unto him the same as if he had retained the gift; wherefore he is counted evil before God.

 9 And likewise also is it counted evil unto a man, if he shall pray and not with real intent of heart; yea, and it profiteth him nothing, for God receiveth none such.

 10 Wherefore, a man being evil cannot do that which is good; neither will he give a good gift."

 

Jesus describes the importance of the motive over the act; Matthew 23; "25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

 26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

 27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness.

 28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity."

 

If we cleanse the inside, spiritual motives, then the outside can be cleansed.  Not the other way around!

 

I don't think I can say it any more clearly than 1 Samuel 16; " 7 But the Lord said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the Lord seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart."

 

A person can do everything "right" by chance, tradition, luck, having a good "nature" but if it is not done with the right intent (heart) it means nothing.

 

Lets say I live a clean life because I don't want to be reincarnated as a mosquito in the next life; I don't kill, I am kind to my neighbors, I don't use bad language, I serve others, I keep my body healthy etc.  You want to say that is the same as someone doing it because the have faith in their Savior and are following His promptings?   It is not the same, God looks at the heart (the purpose), the desires of the heart. 

 

It appears to me you are supporting my premise.  The difference between someone wanting and doing things for a physical healthy body to commit murder and someone that wants a physical healthy body to perform service for G-d is the spirit of the individual.  Thus it is not the principles of being physically healthy but the intent of the spirit that brings about the actual difference between a saint and the natural man.   Which is what I have been saying all along.

[Seminarysnoozer]

It appears to me you are supporting my premise.  The difference between someone wanting and doing things for a physical healthy body to commit murder and someone that wants a physical healthy body to perform service for G-d is the spirit of the individual.  Thus it is not the principles of being physically healthy but the intent of the spirit that brings about the actual difference between a saint and the natural man.   Which is what I have been saying all along.

That is what I have been saying all along as well but the difference is that you are not admitting to their being a difference between the "intent of the spirit" and what actually comes out in terms of actions as it is modified or even often overpowered by the "intent of the brain" (the body).  The spirit is willing but the body is weak.  Those are two different intents.  In any given situation which one wins out is based in a number of variables that you and I cannot judge in any given person.  In some the drive for alcohol is stronger than others, that may be the test they face in life from body genetics, in others there may be same sex attraction, that is the challenge they face in life from body genetics and brain wiring, hormones, etc.  There are those that are driven by adrenaline from body genetics, hormones, brain wiring etc - the adrenaline junky - and so they may be in a different set of circumstances compared to someone else.

 

Is the spirit supposed to win over the body in this life?  We try but we can't do it without the Lord's help and it may not happen in this life.  Paul lived with his thorn in the flesh and despite asking couldn't get rid of it.  Just because we did not win the battle over the body, even if the spirit is not in complete control over actions that does not necessarily mean we will be judged accordingly because we are judged based in the desires of our spirit, our "heart" as opposed to the desires of our brain, hormones, genetics circumstances etc.

 

As I posted in the other thread, from Neal A. Maxwell; "Desire denotes a real longing or craving. Hence righteous desires are much more than passive preferences or fleeting feelings. Of course our genes, circumstances, and environments matter very much, and they shape us significantly. Yet there remains an inner zone in which we are sovereign, unless we abdicate. In this zone lies the essence of our individuality and our personal accountability.

Therefore, what we insistently desire, over time, is what we will eventually become and what we will receive in eternity. “For I [said the Lord] will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts”

 

We are accountable for the "inner zone", not the genes, circumstances and environments that man has a hard time seeing past that "outer man". 

[Traveler]

That is what I have been saying all along as well but the difference is that you are not admitting to their being a difference between the "intent of the spirit" and what actually comes out in terms of actions as it is modified or even often overpowered by the "intent of the brain" (the body).  The spirit is willing but the body is weak.  Those are two different intents.  In any given situation which one wins out is based in a number of variables that you and I cannot judge in any given person.  In some the drive for alcohol is stronger than others, that may be the test they face in life from body genetics, in others there may be same sex attraction, that is the challenge they face in life from body genetics and brain wiring, hormones, etc.  There are those that are driven by adrenaline from body genetics, hormones, brain wiring etc - the adrenaline junky - and so they may be in a different set of circumstances compared to someone else.

 

Is the spirit supposed to win over the body in this life?  We try but we can't do it without the Lord's help and it may not happen in this life.  Paul lived with his thorn in the flesh and despite asking couldn't get rid of it.  Just because we did not win the battle over the body, even if the spirit is not in complete control over actions that does not necessarily mean we will be judged accordingly because we are judged based in the desires of our spirit, our "heart" as opposed to the desires of our brain, hormones, genetics circumstances etc.

 

As I posted in the other thread, from Neal A. Maxwell; "Desire denotes a real longing or craving. Hence righteous desires are much more than passive preferences or fleeting feelings. Of course our genes, circumstances, and environments matter very much, and they shape us significantly. Yet there remains an inner zone in which we are sovereign, unless we abdicate. In this zone lies the essence of our individuality and our personal accountability.

Therefore, what we insistently desire, over time, is what we will eventually become and what we will receive in eternity. “For I [said the Lord] will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts”

 

We are accountable for the "inner zone", not the genes, circumstances and environments that man has a hard time seeing past that "outer man". 

 

I believe that there is often bad interpretations of scripture.  Jesus clearly intended that we judge a great many things about people.  For example he warned about wolves in sheep clothing.  Do you really think he intended that we not judge that in others???  We are clearly told by Christ about judging others according to their fruits.  "By their fruits you shall know them".

 

Part of our mission is to discern good from evil and if we cannot judge the good in ourselves and others what purpose is there in our mortal probation?  I think, but I am not sure - so I keep asking trying to clarify you stand.  But my understanding is that only the spirit sins.  Whatever our body does without our spirit directing is a consequence of mortality but whatever our spirit engages in that is evil is a sin (even if the body does not fully engage but our spirit entertains thoughts like adultery - then repentance is necessary) and without repentance our soul will suffer the consequence.   If our spirit is not engaged (like sometimes happens in dreams while we are sleeping) then whatever is going on is not a sin - I do not know how to say it more simple.   It seems to me that you believe that our physical body can and will sin without any input from our spirit (if our body continues to sin that somehow with the sin happening over and over and becoming an addiction that eventually our spirit might become corrupt and be complicit - but I do not believe that at all - note even for a second.

 

Every sin involves and affects our spirit - and increases the gap between our spirit and the spirit of G-d.  Not only is sin dangerous to a much greater degree to our spirit than our physical body - but once a spirit is corrupted it is impossible for that spirit to engage in good without repentance and that spirit will be cut off forever from good.  The spirit is not just the determining factor in what is sin - it is that spirit and the intent of that spirit that is the only determining factor in what is sin.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I believe that there is often bad interpretations of scripture.  Jesus clearly intended that we judge a great many things about people.  For example he warned about wolves in sheep clothing.  Do you really think he intended that we not judge that in others???  We are clearly told by Christ about judging others according to their fruits.  "By their fruits you shall know them".

 

Part of our mission is to discern good from evil and if we cannot judge the good in ourselves and others what purpose is there in our mortal probation?  I think, but I am not sure - so I keep asking trying to clarify you stand.  But my understanding is that only the spirit sins.  Whatever our body does without our spirit directing is a consequence of mortality but whatever our spirit engages in that is evil is a sin (even if the body does not fully engage but our spirit entertains thoughts like adultery - then repentance is necessary) and without repentance our soul will suffer the consequence.   If our spirit is not engaged (like sometimes happens in dreams while we are sleeping) then whatever is going on is not a sin - I do not know how to say it more simple.   It seems to me that you believe that our physical body can and will sin without any input from our spirit (if our body continues to sin that somehow with the sin happening over and over and becoming an addiction that eventually our spirit might become corrupt and be complicit - but I do not believe that at all - note even for a second.

 

Every sin involves and affects our spirit - and increases the gap between our spirit and the spirit of G-d.  Not only is sin dangerous to a much greater degree to our spirit than our physical body - but once a spirit is corrupted it is impossible for that spirit to engage in good without repentance and that spirit will be cut off forever from good.  The spirit is not just the determining factor in what is sin - it is that spirit and the intent of that spirit that is the only determining factor in what is sin.

Yes, I believe if the spirit becomes darkened in any individual, if they "harden" their heart, obscure their eye or whatever other analogy you want to use for the spirit not being in control, then the result is being a natural man. To allow the spirit to be in control requires becoming spiritually minded.  We don't start out with that ability, it takes work and constant effort.  It is so much that way when we are born, I believe, that is the reason there is an age of accountability.  At least at that age the spirit starts to have a fighting chance to overcome the influences of the body.  That is what the gospel is about, to allow the spirit to be in control. But if man does not follow the gospel principles then the body remains in control.  The lack of spiritual control when it is possible is sin.  Letting go of the controls, in other words, is sin.  That is what is meant by "eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die" mentality. 2 Nephi says there are "many" that have that mentality.   Who says that?  Those that are "taught by the precepts of men" and those that are "wise and learned" and rich and proud, according to 2 Nephi.  The influence of the spirit is soft, quiet and subtle, it is not loud and overpowering like the body's influence.  It is hard to hear the spirit. Like Elder Bednar said recently, that is the test of this life to see if we make the effort to listen to our spiritual influences or do we simply follow the natural passions of the body.  That is the test from which there is sin vs obedience.

 

Judging whether any given incident is generated by body vs spirit is not an easy thing to do when looking at our neighbor unless one has been given power to do so such as a bishop etc over one of his members. I am glad to see that you are finally admitting that the body can generate its own thoughts - the example of sleep you gave.  Yeah!!

 

I agree with everything you are saying about sin and the spirit.  All I am saying is that is is very difficult to see the splinter in another's eye when there is a mote in ours.  Man sees the outer man where God can see the thoughts from the spirit, the inner man. Where and when it has crossed the line to the spirit driving those evil thoughts is under God's judgement, not ours. We can't do it.

 

There is a difference between judging a person vs discernment of a situation.  I realize the words are sometimes used interchangeably but there is a difference between judging a person vs discerning good from evil.

 

N. Eldon Tanner said; "The reason, therefore, that we cannot judge is obvious. We cannot see what is in the heart. We do not know motives, although we impute motives to every action we see. They may be pure while we think they are improper.

It is not possible to judge another fairly unless you know his desires, his faith, and his goals. Because of a different environment, unequal opportunity, and many other things, people are not in the same position. One may start at the top and the other at the bottom, and they may meet as they are going in opposite directions. Someone has said that it is not where you are but the direction in which you are going that counts; not how close you are to failure or success but which way you are headed. How can we, with all our weaknesses and frailties, dare to arrogate to ourselves the position of a judge? At best, man can judge only what he sees; he cannot judge the heart or the intention, or begin to judge the potential of his neighbor.

When we try to judge people, which we should not do, we have a great tendency to look for and take pride in finding weaknesses and faults, such as vanity, dishonesty, immorality, and intrigue. As a result, we see only the worst side of those being judged."

 

Our ability to discern is limited, this is why the first principle of the gospel is faith.  If we could discern all then faith would not be necessary.  Is it possible to sin because of a lack of faith?  I would say yes.  Apparently, you would say no because one would have to have full knowledge about the issue to sin but if one has knowledge, where is the faith?  There is no faith if there is knowledge.  So, how do you propose there could be a test of faith if only a person could be tested on the things that are known?

[Traveler]

Yes, I believe if the spirit becomes darkened in any individual, if they "harden" their heart, obscure their eye or whatever other analogy you want to use for the spirit not being in control, then the result is being a natural man. ....

 

This is where I think you and I disagree.  I do not believe that when the spirit has no control that there is or can be a sin committed by our physical body.  I believe that in anything that our physical body does out of control of our spirit is not a sin.  This if a person suffering some physical disorder cries out obscenities during the sacred ordinance of the sacrament - because the spirit has no control of such things - it is not a sin.  

 

The spirit is part of man and when our spirits are enjoying the physical stimulation provided by our physical bodies without any discipline - that man - spirit and body together is the natural man.  In fact a undisciplined spirit does not need a body to be the natural man which is the enemy of G-d - Satan and all his fallen followers being the perfect example of undisciplined spirits acting as the natural enemy of G-d. 

 

To thwart the natural man inclinations our spirit must become in tune with the spirit of G-d - not in tune with itself - in order to repent and receive salvation.  You have said many time that it is necessary to have a eye single to the glory of G-d to spiritually overcome the natural man - that is the key.  It is only through G-d and our spirit connecting to its divine roots with the spirit of G-d that there is any redemption.  Our spirit can do nothing of itself - and if left to its own devices that spirit will become an enemy to G-d as sure as any other spirit under Satan's influence.

 

 

To allow the spirit to be in control requires becoming spiritually minded.  We don't start out with that ability, it takes work and constant effort.  It is so much that way when we are born, I believe, that is the reason there is an age of accountability.  At least at that age the spirit starts to have a fighting chance to overcome the influences of the body.  That is what the gospel is about, to allow the spirit to be in control. But if man does not follow the gospel principles then the body remains in control.  The lack of spiritual control when it is possible is sin.  Letting go of the controls, in other words, is sin.  That is what is meant by "eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die" mentality. 2 Nephi says there are "many" that have that mentality.   Who says that?  Those that are "taught by the precepts of men" and those that are "wise and learned" and rich and proud, according to 2 Nephi.  The influence of the spirit is soft, quiet and subtle, it is not loud and overpowering like the body's influence.  It is hard to hear the spirit. Like Elder Bednar said recently, that is the test of this life to see if we make the effort to listen to our spiritual influences or do we simply follow the natural passions of the body.  That is the test from which there is sin vs obedience.

 

Judging whether any given incident is generated by body vs spirit is not an easy thing to do when looking at our neighbor unless one has been given power to do so such as a bishop etc over one of his members. I am glad to see that you are finally admitting that the body can generate its own thoughts - the example of sleep you gave.  Yeah!!

 

I agree with everything you are saying about sin and the spirit.  All I am saying is that is is very difficult to see the splinter in another's eye when there is a mote in ours.  Man sees the outer man where God can see the thoughts from the spirit, the inner man. Where and when it has crossed the line to the spirit driving those evil thoughts is under God's judgement, not ours. We can't do it.

 

There is a difference between judging a person vs discernment of a situation.  I realize the words are sometimes used interchangeably but there is a difference between judging a person vs discerning good from evil.

 

N. Eldon Tanner said; "The reason, therefore, that we cannot judge is obvious. We cannot see what is in the heart. We do not know motives, although we impute motives to every action we see. They may be pure while we think they are improper.

It is not possible to judge another fairly unless you know his desires, his faith, and his goals. Because of a different environment, unequal opportunity, and many other things, people are not in the same position. One may start at the top and the other at the bottom, and they may meet as they are going in opposite directions. Someone has said that it is not where you are but the direction in which you are going that counts; not how close you are to failure or success but which way you are headed. How can we, with all our weaknesses and frailties, dare to arrogate to ourselves the position of a judge? At best, man can judge only what he sees; he cannot judge the heart or the intention, or begin to judge the potential of his neighbor.

When we try to judge people, which we should not do, we have a great tendency to look for and take pride in finding weaknesses and faults, such as vanity, dishonesty, immorality, and intrigue. As a result, we see only the worst side of those being judged."

 

Our ability to discern is limited, this is why the first principle of the gospel is faith.  If we could discern all then faith would not be necessary.  Is it possible to sin because of a lack of faith?  I would say yes.  Apparently, you would say no because one would have to have full knowledge about the issue to sin but if one has knowledge, where is the faith?  There is no faith if there is knowledge.  So, how do you propose there could be a test of faith if only a person could be tested on the things that are known?

 

The question is can a physical body sin without a complicit spirit allowing and enjoying the sin?

[Seminarysnoozer]

This is where I think you and I disagree.  I do not believe that when the spirit has no control that there is or can be a sin committed by our physical body.  I believe that in anything that our physical body does out of control of our spirit is not a sin.  This if a person suffering some physical disorder cries out obscenities during the sacred ordinance of the sacrament - because the spirit has no control of such things - it is not a sin.  

 

The spirit is part of man and when our spirits are enjoying the physical stimulation provided by our physical bodies without any discipline - that man - spirit and body together is the natural man.  In fact a undisciplined spirit does not need a body to be the natural man which is the enemy of G-d - Satan and all his fallen followers being the perfect example of undisciplined spirits acting as the natural enemy of G-d. 

 

To thwart the natural man inclinations our spirit must become in tune with the spirit of G-d - not in tune with itself - in order to repent and receive salvation.  You have said many time that it is necessary to have a eye single to the glory of G-d to spiritually overcome the natural man - that is the key.  It is only through G-d and our spirit connecting to its divine roots with the spirit of G-d that there is any redemption.  Our spirit can do nothing of itself - and if left to its own devices that spirit will become an enemy to G-d as sure as any other spirit under Satan's influence.

 

 

The question is can a physical body sin without a complicit spirit allowing and enjoying the sin?

The sin is in the ommision.  What is ommited?  The control of the body. 

 

If someone takes drugs and then goes and robs a store, killing the clerk but because of the drugs doesn't remember anything about it, are they really responsible for the killing?  They weren't in their right mind when they killed.

 

Or, if someone is drunk and they kill someone while under the influence of alcohol and driving, are they responsible for the killing, or would you even call it killing?  Who or what killed if the person is not responsible for the killing.

 

Lets say someone slips some GHB in someones drink and they, not being theirself with the effect of the drug, agree to extramarietal sex and she becomes pregnant.  Did the person have extramarietal sex or not?  The person (the spirit) was not in control of the body and yet the body agreed to pursue the advances of the person who slipped her the drug.  Of course we would not call that a sin and yet the body acted in a way that was contrary to what that person's spirit would have chosen.  Could the person maybe tried to put herself in a different situation so those kinds of things wouldn't happen , like go out on double dates or in different situations?  Maybe, that would be for God to judge. 

 

The question that should be asked is if the body can be an enemy to God (go contrary to God's will) without sinning?  Yes.  There must needs be opposition in all things to bring about the purposes of this world.

 

When the apostles slept in the garden, an act that was contrary to the will of their spirit, who or what did Christ blame that on?  He did not say, "you have sinned" but recognized the act as being contrary to what He asked them to do.  He said the body is weak, recognizing the body overpowered their spirit in that situation.

 

When Christ said, forgive them for they know not what they do, you must have a really hard time with that statement because He is saying there is something that should be forgiven but at the same time saying they don't even know what they are doing.  How can that be?  Because the body can act without the spirit knowing or controling the action.  For the same reason children under the age of 8 are not responsible for those actions.

 

LDS.org defines sin as; "To commit sin is to willfully disobey God's commandments or to fail to act righteously despite a knowledge of the truth (see James 4:17)."

So, if that is the definition of sin, what do you call it when a person is acting unrighteously without the knowledge of the truth?   And is it possible to disobey God unwillingly if the statement is that we have to "willfully disobey" to call it a sin.

What would you call an act of unwillingly disobeying God's commandments?   There may be some useful terms; iniquity, unrighteousness, carnality, etc. 

[Awakened]

Sorry to bring up yet another question, but what I'm curious about is whether these unclean spirits are actually living through us when we give in to their temptations or if they're just getting us to sin out of pure spite and/or dominance.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Sorry to bring up yet another question, but what I'm curious about is whether these unclean spirits are actually living through us when we give in to their temptations or if they're just getting us to sin out of pure spite and/or dominance.

You have to realize that 2000 years ago there was not much understanding of medicine and the people used terms such as "evil spirit" or "unclean spirit" for all sorts of diseases and things they didn't understand.

 

For example; Mark 9: "17 And one of the multitude answered and said, Master, I have brought unto thee my son, which hath a dumb spirit;

 18 And wheresoever he taketh him, he teareth him: and he foameth, and gnasheth with his teeth, and pineth away: and I spake to thy disciples that they should cast him out; and they could not.

 19 He answereth him, and saith, O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him unto me.

 20 And they brought him unto him: and when he saw him, straightway the spirit tare him; and he fell on the ground, and wallowed foaming.

 21 And he asked his father, How long is it ago since this came unto him? And he said, Of a child.

 22 And ofttimes it hath cast him into the fire, and into the waters, to destroy him: but if thou canst do any thing, have compassion on us, and help us.

 23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

 24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

 25 When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him.

 26 And the spirit cried, and rent him sore, and came out of him: and he was as one dead; insomuch that many said, He is dead.

 27 But Jesus took him by the hand, and lifted him up; and he arose.

 28 And when he was come into the house, his disciples asked him privately, Why could not we cast him out?

 29 And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting."

 

There are two important things about this account that help us understand what is meant by "unclean spirit".  We know from modern revelation that the devil does not have power to tempt children.  The father in this account says that the "unclean spirit" came to him as a child. So, we can say that this unclean spirit was not obtained by some spiritual weakness of the son in the story.  Also, anybody has been around a seizure recognizes this presentation.  Coming in episodes (it isn't always there), foaming at the mouth, "renting" (shaking back and forth like a tonic clonic seizure) followed by a period of post-ictal confusion or quietness (appeared as if he was dead).   Also many childhood forms of epilepsy are associated with mental impairments = a "dumb spirit". 

 

Don't get me wrong, I believe there are actually evil spirit posessions at times but oftentimes, especially in ancient text, the term "unclean spirit" is synonymous with disease, they were grouped together because they could not tell the difference between the two. Christ wasn't there to give them a lesson in human anatomy and medicine.

 

1 Nephi 11; "31 And he spake unto me again, saying: Look! And I looked, and I beheld the Lamb of God going forth among the children of men. And I beheld multitudes of people who were sick, and who were afflicted with all manner of diseases, and with devils and unclean spirits; and the angel spake and showed all these things unto me. And they were healed by the power of the Lamb of God; and the devils and the unclean spirits were cast out."

 

Not only were they healed but the diseases were cast out.  It may seem like these are two separate issues, healing and casting out but it may be over the same problem.  In medicine there is a difference between treating a symptom and curing a disease.  One could say metaphorically, "casting out" means to cure them of the problem so that it never affects them again.  Whereas, simply healing alone would only treat the symptom for a period of time. At a minimum, one should realize that the scriptures make no real, usable, separation between diseases and being possessed by a spirit.

[Awakened]

You have to realize that 2000 years ago there was not much understanding of medicine and the people used terms such as "evil spirit" or "unclean spirit" for all sorts of diseases and things they didn't understand.

 

snip

Oh no, you misunderstand me. I wasn't talking about actual full-blown possession, I was asking if whether or not, when we give in to temptations, the spirit(s) responsible actually receive pleasure along with you. It would explain why they would even want to do so in the first place. They want to satisfy their appetites through you. This also aligns with what Alma said about those same spirits "possessing" our bodies.

 

"Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God.  Nay, ye cannot say this, for that same spirit which doth possess you bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world."  (Alma 34:34)

 

If not, then I'm sure it would just come down to simple spite and/or dominance as I mentioned before.

[Traveler]

You have to realize that 2000 years ago there was not much understanding of medicine and the people used terms such as "evil spirit" or "unclean spirit" for all sorts of diseases and things they didn't understand.

 

For example; Mark 9: "17 And one of the multitude answered and said, Master, I have brought unto thee my son, which hath a dumb spirit;

 18 And wheresoever he taketh him, he teareth him: and he foameth, and gnasheth with his teeth, and pineth away: and I spake to thy disciples that they should cast him out; and they could not.

 19 He answereth him, and saith, O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him unto me.

 20 And they brought him unto him: and when he saw him, straightway the spirit tare him; and he fell on the ground, and wallowed foaming.

 21 And he asked his father, How long is it ago since this came unto him? And he said, Of a child.

 22 And ofttimes it hath cast him into the fire, and into the waters, to destroy him: but if thou canst do any thing, have compassion on us, and help us.

 23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

 24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

 25 When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him.

 26 And the spirit cried, and rent him sore, and came out of him: and he was as one dead; insomuch that many said, He is dead.

 27 But Jesus took him by the hand, and lifted him up; and he arose.

 28 And when he was come into the house, his disciples asked him privately, Why could not we cast him out?

 29 And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting."

 

There are two important things about this account that help us understand what is meant by "unclean spirit".  We know from modern revelation that the devil does not have power to tempt children.  The father in this account says that the "unclean spirit" came to him as a child. So, we can say that this unclean spirit was not obtained by some spiritual weakness of the son in the story.  Also, anybody has been around a seizure recognizes this presentation.  Coming in episodes (it isn't always there), foaming at the mouth, "renting" (shaking back and forth like a tonic clonic seizure) followed by a period of post-ictal confusion or quietness (appeared as if he was dead).   Also many childhood forms of epilepsy are associated with mental impairments = a "dumb spirit". 

 

Don't get me wrong, I believe there are actually evil spirit posessions at times but oftentimes, especially in ancient text, the term "unclean spirit" is synonymous with disease, they were grouped together because they could not tell the difference between the two. Christ wasn't there to give them a lesson in human anatomy and medicine.

 

1 Nephi 11; "31 And he spake unto me again, saying: Look! And I looked, and I beheld the Lamb of God going forth among the children of men. And I beheld multitudes of people who were sick, and who were afflicted with all manner of diseases, and with devils and unclean spirits; and the angel spake and showed all these things unto me. And they were healed by the power of the Lamb of God; and the devils and the unclean spirits were cast out."

 

Not only were they healed but the diseases were cast out.  It may seem like these are two separate issues, healing and casting out but it may be over the same problem.  In medicine there is a difference between treating a symptom and curing a disease.  One could say metaphorically, "casting out" means to cure them of the problem so that it never affects them again.  Whereas, simply healing alone would only treat the symptom for a period of time. At a minimum, one should realize that the scriptures make no real, usable, separation between diseases and being possessed by a spirit.

You are making an assumption that pain disease and mental illness is not associated in any way with unclean spirits.  It is interesting that scripture indicates otherwise.  As fallen entities we are subject to the Devil and the pain and suffering he can cause us to endure.  I would also point to what we know of the millennium - that the Devil will be unable to inflict man and during that time there will be no sickness, disease, pain or suffering.  It would appear indeed that sickness, disease, pain and suffering are all because of Satan having power over men and that when Satan is removed such things are no more.

 

I have always been interested in the placebo effect and that a person's attitude (spiritually) has a great deal to do with dealing with various infirmities.