Those who die before the age of 8

[Latter Days Guy]

  If you believe in the "Saturday's Warrior"-myth of "the one", then "the one" may be your companion in the pre-mortal MTC.  

 

So this isn't how it goes?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uWqMPAYizw

[Bini]

I will agree that life is not fair, but the Lord is just.

 

I've heard many times that children under 8 who die and those burdened with developmental disabilities, were brothers and sisters more righteous than the rest of us, therefore born just to gain a body before returning to God or living a life unaccountable to sin. While a nice sentiment, especially for those of us with loved ones that fit in either category, I'm not convinced it's the case. Why? Because on the flipside, I've often heard that those most righteous are reserved for the latter days, which might be our children now or grandchildren... So who really knows?

 

Lastly, I can speculate all I want and perhaps critique The Lord's plan, but in the end I am incapable of calling out what is fair and not fair in the grand scheme of things in His plan.

[Blackmarch]

Is it fair that those who die before they reach the age of accountability (age 8) get a free ride to the Celestial Kingdom?

 

What are your thoughts?

I don't know the particulars of such a case. I know God will be just however.

we do know that at the end of the millenial reign that satan will be loosed one last time. So I doubt there will be any free ride to the celestial kingdom that is not without merit to it.

[onethatislazy]

The bolded above is where you err.  And this is where we all rub against the Faith vs. Works debate.  Obviously, mortality is not the only place where we work.  If it was, then there wouldn't be a need for vicarious ordinances.  Faith and work are indelible parts of Eternal Progression.

 

Mortality is very needful, otherwise, what's the purpose of the Plan of Salvation?  We each must enter mortality.  To act and/or be acted upon.  But, this is not the only place that we are to exercise faith and act upon it.  Nor is it the FIRST place where we exercised faith and acted upon it.

I agree its not the only place we do work. It was a rhetorical question. If you believe children become exalted by bypassing "this" probation it is not needful for them. Than whatever work they did before allowed them to bypass this probation (or they were sent to prove others), thus we could have done the same. So how did it happen? What was the difference between them and us? Why did others choose to descend, God? Isaiah? and other "Great and nobles"? What is the condensation of God?

 

There is the scriptures "if they were permitted to tarry" and would have received it. Its interesting how God works.

 

My point is this doctrine right here.

You cannot ascend to something without descending first. The greater the descent the greater the ascent. And Yes one of these descents goes through death. But only one overcame it, Jesus Christ.

 

Look at this quote.

The scriptures are a mixture of very strange doctrines to the Christian world, who are blindly led by the blind. I will refer to another scripture. "Now," says God, when He visited Moses in the bush, (Moses was a stammering sort of a boy like me) God said, "Thou shalt be a God unto the children of Israel." God said, "Thou shalt be a God unto Aaron, and he shall be thy spokesman." I believe those Gods that God reveals as Gods to be sons of God, and all can cry, "Abba, Father!" Sons of God who exalt themselves to be Gods, even from before the foundation of the world, and are the only Gods I have a reverence for.

 

Who are the God's that exalted themselves before the foundation of the world? How do we become exalted? Why did Joseph ONLY revere THESE God's that were revealed to be God's? Why bring up Moses on this? How does one become a Sons of God? 

 

Doesn't the Endowment show us the path for exaltation? Are there multiple paths to become exalted? Is the path wide? Or is it narrow?

 

The real question I see here in this thread is this. 

 

What does it mean to be SAVED? Does it include Exaltation? While I believe they are not exalted I do believe they can eventually get there, through the laws ordained to do so. I am not saying they will be denied these blessings. Are the angels in the CK also considered saved beings? Are not all Celestial Beings "just men made perfect"? Even the angels?

[The Folk Prophet]

My point is this doctrine right here.

You cannot ascend to something without descending first. 

 

You're going to have to back that one up. It's a nice slogan, but I'm having a hard time with it being "doctrine".

 

 

Doesn't the Endowment show us the path for exaltation?

 

Yes.

 

 Are there multiple paths to become exalted?

 

No.

 

Is the path wide? Or is it narrow?

 

Narrow.

 

What does it mean to be SAVED? Does it include Exaltation? While I believe they are not exalted I do believe they can eventually get there, through the laws ordained to do so. I am not saying they will be denied these blessings. Are the angels in the CK also considered saved beings? Are not all Celestial Beings "just men made perfect"? Even the angels?

 

Bruce R. McConkie:

"Eternal life is life in the highest heaven of the celestial world; it is exaltation; it is the name of the kind of life God lives. It consists of a continuation of the family unit in eternity. We have quoted scriptures saying that children will be saved in the celestial kingdom, but now face the further query as to whether this includes the greatest of all the gifts of God—the gift of eternal life. And in the providences of Him who is infinitely wise, the answer is in the affirmative. Salvation means eternal life; the two terms are synonymous; they mean exactly the same thing. Joseph Smith said, “Salvation consists in the glory, authority, majesty, power and dominion which Jehovah possesses and in nothing else.” (Lectures on Faith, pp. 63–67.) We have come to speak of this salvation as exaltation—which it is—but all of the scriptures in all of the standard works call it salvation. I know of only three passages in all our scriptures which use salvation to mean something other and less than exaltation."

 

The way I have come to think of it is this. It's fairly straight-forward. There is only one complete salvation. All other forms of salvation are only partial salvation. We can be "partially" saved without being fully saved. There is only one full salvation. That is exaltation. That is why "salvation" is synonymous with "exaltation". If we do not reach exaltation, we are not fully saved...and therefore, not actually "saved" saved. Any other reference to salvation beyond it's full meaning required conditional adjectives or explanations. Yes, we can talk about salvation from death, salvation from perdition, etc., etc. But when we talk general terms of "salvation" in the church, we mean exaltation.

 

Clearly there are exceptions to this. Hence I use the term "general".

[onethatislazy]

You're going to have to back that one up. It's a nice slogan, but I'm having a hard time with it being "doctrine".

 

 

 

Yes.

 

 

No.

 

 

Narrow.

 

 

Bruce R. McConkie:

"Eternal life is life in the highest heaven of the celestial world; it is exaltation; it is the name of the kind of life God lives. It consists of a continuation of the family unit in eternity. We have quoted scriptures saying that children will be saved in the celestial kingdom, but now face the further query as to whether this includes the greatest of all the gifts of God—the gift of eternal life. And in the providences of Him who is infinitely wise, the answer is in the affirmative. Salvation means eternal life; the two terms are synonymous; they mean exactly the same thing. Joseph Smith said, “Salvation consists in the glory, authority, majesty, power and dominion which Jehovah possesses and in nothing else.” (Lectures on Faith, pp. 63–67.) We have come to speak of this salvation as exaltation—which it is—but all of the scriptures in all of the standard works call it salvation. I know of only three passages in all our scriptures which use salvation to mean something other and less than exaltation."

 

The way I have come to think of it is this. It's fairly straight-forward. There is only one complete salvation. All other forms of salvation are only partial salvation. We can be "partially" saved without being fully saved. There is only one full salvation. That is exaltation. That is why "salvation" is synonymous with "exaltation". If we do not reach exaltation, we are not fully saved...and therefore, not actually "saved" saved. Any other reference to salvation beyond it's full meaning required conditional adjectives or explanations. Yes, we can talk about salvation from death, salvation from perdition, etc., etc. But when we talk general terms of "salvation" in the church, we mean exaltation.

 

Clearly there are exceptions to this. Hence I use the term "general".

Ok I think some of it semantics/context where I was using words differently.

 

If you trust Joseph got it right that we go from "exaltation to exaltation" or as woodruff put it "probation to probation" (I may have got the person wrong on this quote) than it would seem plausible that there is Total Salvation , and partial salvation (even in the Celestial Kingdom).

 

(“Salvation consists in the glory, authority, majesty, power and dominion which Jehovah possesses and in nothing else.” (Lectures on Faith, pp. 63–67.) )

 

Exactly. And How did Jesus obtain this Glory, authority, majesty, power and dominion? I would equate Salvation in this context with Eternal Life and Exaltation. Though there are different levels of exaltation. Or as Jacob put it, Jacobs Ladder (with 7 rungs, See the Orson Hyde Diagram). Which Joseph quoted on occasion. These are the Powers of Heaven.

Notice D&C 93:

 

 

12 And I, John, saw that he received not of the fulness at the first, but received grace for grace;

 13 And he received not of the fulness at first, but continued fromgrace to grace, until he received a fulness;14 And thus he was called the Son of God, because he received not of the fulness at the first.

We won't either. It may be promised upon us in the hereafter, but we still must remain faithful for Joseph said we will have a great work even beyond the grave to obtain our exaltation. 

 

As for the descent/ascent concept let me look into it, I have never put it into words myself. I know Avraham Gileadi talks about it a lot. Its shown in the book of Mormon over and over. The Ascension of Isaiah (an apocrpha text) talks about it too a bit. I may do this in a new thread. Maybe I can just find where Avraham explains it. I am lazy.

 

I think I have deviated from the OP. I am merely trying to define what is the difference between a Saved being, and degrees of a saved being. For we cannot arrive there in an instant. All things in degrees.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I have a conflicting opinion.

 

On one hand, we know that children who die are not held accountable for any sins.  They are pure and they are returned to the Father.  We can read about that in Moroni 8 as well as many statements from General Authorities.

 

On the other head, I also believe in Eternal Progression - that we will be continuously learning, and making decisions based on experiences, even after this life.  Is it possible to become like the Father without having had to make choices that could have the potential for mistakes and/or sin?

 

To me, I don't think that's possible.

 

Is there a conflicting doctrine?  Yes and no.

 

For salvation, we know that little children will be saved.

 

But for exaltation - to grow and become more like the Father - I don't see how that can be done, except through experiences held and learned from.

As Anatess already stated, the pre-mortal life was completed by a test of faith, some were more faithful than others but all that arrive here were faithful to some degree. There was already a stratification of faithfulness made with the first estate test, it wasn't just a pass/fail test.

 

Also, there does not have to be forks in the road to have eternal progression.  Eternal progression, at a certain point (after judgement and after receiving a "fullness"), could be more like a railroad track that has no turns or deviations.  In other words, one could still progress without having opportunity to deviate from the course. Once we end this mortal test the track we find ourselves on is set, it cannot connect to another track as this life is a test of character, who we truly are.  God will not make a mistake about who we really are in the end.  If we are a Celestial character we will be on a Celestial track, if we are a Terrestrial character a terrestrial track etc.  The test is not about how far down the track one gets but the revelation of what kind of person one is.

 

I think one should also consider what the word "inheritance" means.  Inheritance cannot mean "earning" or "do-it-yourself" achievement.  Inheritance typically means something that is received through the efforts of someone else.

 

Our reward at the end of this life is an inheritance not an achievement.  So, when asking how one can receive something they did not do their self then question one's faith in a Savior that does something for us, advancing us to a status that we could not do for our self.  We do believe in vicarious acts of advancement - we believe in a Savior.  Satan would want us to believe that it is only done by individual merit and effort alone.

 

I like Elder Holland's statement when discussing the parable of the laborers in the vineyard; "Brothers and sisters, there are going to be times in our lives when someone else gets an unexpected blessing or receives some special recognition. May I plead with us not to be hurt—and certainly not to feel envious—when good fortune comes to another person? We are not diminished when someone else is added upon. We are not in a race against each other to see who is the wealthiest or the most talented or the most beautiful or even the most blessed. The race we are really in is the race against sin, and surely envy is one of the most universal of those." ..."His concern is for the faith at which you finally arrive, not the hour of the day in which you got there." ..."“Come boldly [to] the throne of grace,”³ and fall at the feet of the Holy One of Israel. Come and feast “without money and without price”⁴ at the table of the Lord."

 

In other words, there is no price to pay to feast upon the grace of the Lord other than faith. If sufficient faith was shown before this life then they will feast just like the rest of us that struggled with our faith and needed some extra time beyond the age of 8 to work it out.

[applepansy]

Is it fair that those who die before they reach the age of accountability (age 8) get a free ride to the Celestial Kingdom?

 

What are your thoughts?

Does it need to be fair?  As a parent I have found that its impossible to be "fair" in the eyes of my children.  They are all different and require different interactions, different discipline, etc.

 

If Heavenly Father has stated that those under the age of 8 are not sufficiently mature enough to be accountable then that's all I need to know.