Matthew 16:18 And The Great Apostasy

[a-train]

Ohhhh yeah.

I forget sometimes that a lot of folks don't know what hell is. For those, it is always fun to show them Revelation 20:13-14:

'And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.'

Then you just ask them: 'What was hell cast into?'

It's at this point that they start to get some idea that hell is not the lake of fire or the second death. I mean, duh, it's the first one!

-a-train

[Dr T]

Following what I think you might believe thought, wouldn't you agree that if the church apostatized and there was no church on Earth then there were those that died without Jesus and all your other beliefs about "authority, keys, etc."? That doesn't work I guess because you believe in temple work and getting another chance I guess.

[CrimsonKairos]

Precisely.

A God who notices the fall of every sparrow would not doom billions of His children to eternal darkness just because they didn't live when Jesus did, or in a place where his gospel could be taught.

And a-train, that example freakin' rocks dude. No, no...you rock. B)

[musashi]

He damned a third of his children to hell before they even came to earth.

They must have done something really bad, because even murderers can go to heaven.

[a-train]

God damns none. The damned damn themselves.

-a-train

[MaidservantX]

Lucifer and his adherents received what they desired EXCEPT the desire that they had to control the selfs and destinies of the children of God, their brothers and sisters. In that desire, thankfully, they were frustrated. Although they are all still hard at it.

And, oh, yea, the English word "prevail" presupposes or bears the connotation of a struggle. There may be a struggle -- but in the end, The Rock will prevail.

("the Rock" is the antecedent to the "it" in that scriptural sentence; "the church" is not the antecedent, and thus the idea that prevailing will occur applies to rock/ revelation -- as has already been brought out by previous posters :) )

[Snow]

How does one reconcile Matthew 16:18 with the Great Apostasy?

Matthew 16:18 KJV And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

You're starting with the proposition that if there was an apostacy, then Satan has prevailed against God. I believe that there was an apostacy and I do not believe that Satan has prevailed against God.

Perhaps you should explain what you think God has lost.

[Holly3278]

Let's look at the Greek root words. I just did, and a new meaning has unfolded which I feel rather foolish for having overlooked for 25 years.

The gates of hell won't prevail. What does that mean? When we hear the word hell, we think of the abode of satan, of satan himself, of torture or divine punishment, or the symbol of evil.

The word translated as "gates" is the Greek word pyle. Straightforward enough. An entrance.

The word translated as "hell" is the Greek word hades. Note that this word refers to god of the underworld (Hades or Pluto), the netherworld itself (Orcus, the receptacle of disembodied spirits, deep in the earth), the grave, and death.

The word translated as "prevail" is the Greek word katischyo. This refers to being strong to another's detriment, to overpowering someone or something.

So let's re-read Matt. 16:18-19:

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

When Christ tells Peter that the gates of hell will not prevail against his church, what does he mean? Well if we go by the Greek words' original meanings, it would seem Christ is telling Peter something like this:

The gates of hades--death itself--will not be stronger than my Church or the keys of power I'm giving to you.

Makes sense in two main ways.

1.) Christ was victor over the grave; his resurrection literally prevailed against (or overpowered) the gates of hell/hades (see John 12:17; 1 Corinthians 15:55).

2.) Christ promises Peter that once he's recieved the keys of the kingdom of heaven, whatever he binds or looses will be bound or loosed in heaven too. In other words, these keys of power don't just have effect in this world, but beyond the grave and into the next life too. Not even the gates of death, not even the grave, will be mightier than the keys Peter is to receive. Their power to affect mankind by binding or loosing persists not just until death, but beyond also, in direct defiance of the supposed finality of death.

So in retrospect, I don't think Christ is talking about what will happen to his Church at all. I think he's talking about the fact that both his resurrection and the keys of the kingdom will overpower death, and not the other way around. Death does not exceed the power of resurrection and priesthood keys. Christ is the victor, as are they who follow him.

Note: If the scripture is saying that the gates of hell won't prevail against revelation, it has nothing whatsoever to do with the apostasy. God continues to reveal His will and mind to modern prophets. The LDS belief in continuing revelation to living apostles and prophets merely confirms the Savior's claim in Matthew 16.

I think I like this answer the best. It makes the most sense to me.

[Gabelma]

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Note: If the scripture is saying that the gates of hell won't prevail against revelation, it has nothing whatsoever to do with the apostasy. God continues to reveal His will and mind to modern prophets. The LDS belief in continuing revelation to living apostles and prophets merely confirms the Savior's claim in Matthew 16.

I think I like this answer the best. It makes the most sense to me.

Plus revelation didn't end with the apostasy just the removal of the keys to the callings.

Charley

[Dr T]

God damns none. The damned damn themselves.

Amen to that a-train

[musashi]

He didn't give them a chance to repent that's what I'm saying. One mistake and that was it.

[BenRaines]

As I understand it we were not living by faith in pre-existence but with a clear knowledge. Repentance is for us as we live by faith.

We do not know how many chances they were given to decide which side they were on. I don't know if they had one opportunity or many. Reasoning would say they had many opportunities.

Ben Raines

[CrimsonKairos]

musashi, if someone is willing to stare God in the face and say, "I'm not going to follow you. I'm going with Satan's plan," then I think they're at a point of no return.

[Snow]

God damns none. The damned damn themselves.

Amen to that a-train

That makes no sense. Damnation is a supernatural phenomenon. Man has no supernatural abilities. Only God can damn anyone.

[Dr T]

Damnation through the rejection of Christ is a person's willful decision. In that we they are damned. God offered the solution, Jesus, and once rejected, it was not God but us.

[Snow]

Damnation through the rejection of Christ is a person's willful decision. In that we they are damned. God offered the solution, Jesus, and once rejected, it was not God but us.

That's simply not the case. God set up the rules and said unless you do as I say to do - you are damned. We didn't set the rules and we don't have the choice of not following the rules (and avoiding damnation). The responsibility for the system - rules/salvation/damnation - rests with He who created the whole thing.

It like if a parent sets up rules and says to the child, if you mow the lawn on Sat. they I won't hit you with a rock. The kid doesn't mow the lawn and the parent beans the kid with a rock saying you have no one to blame but yourself for this giant dent in your skull.

I'm not saying God is unjust or unloving - just that it is His system and He, not us, damns. We merely obey or not obey.

[Dr T]

I agree that God sets the plan and is in charge. They are his rules. We cannot change his plan-agreed. We are not talking about the plan but the consequence. We make a choice to accept or reject the truth of Jesus. In that choices comes the peril or joy.

[musashi]

I like how you said "bean" with a rock. That's such a cool expression.

By the way, besides modern revelation where did the whole war in heaven come from? I mean what scriptures is it sourced from? Our weapons in that war of all wars was our testimonies :)

[Snow]

I like how you said "bean" with a rock. That's such a cool expression.

By the way, besides modern revelation where did the whole war in heaven come from? I mean what scriptures is it sourced from? Our weapons in that war of all wars was our testimonies :)

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bd/w/2

BIBLE DICTIONARY

War in Heaven

This term arises out of Rev. 12: 7 and refers to the conflict that took place in the premortal existence among the spirit children of God. The war was primarily over how and in what manner the plan of salvation would be administered to the forthcoming human family upon the earth. The issues involved such things as agency, how to gain salvation, and who should be the Redeemer. The war broke out because one-third of the spirits refused to accept the appointment of Jesus Christ as the Savior. Such a refusal was a rebellion against the Father’s plan of redemption. It was evident that if given agency, some persons would fall short of complete salvation; Lucifer and his followers wanted salvation to come automatically to all who passed through mortality, without regard to individual preference, agency, or voluntary dedication (see Isa. 14: 12-20; Luke 10: 18; Rev. 12: 4-13; D&C 29: 36-38; Moses 4: 1-4). The spirits who thus rebelled and persisted were thrust out of heaven and cast down to the earth without mortal bodies, “and thus came the devil and his angels” (D&C 29: 37; see also Rev. 12: 9; Abr. 3: 24-28).

The warfare is continued in mortality in the conflict between right and wrong; between the gospel and false principles, etc. The same contestants and the same issues are doing battle, and the same salvation is at stake.

Although one-third of the spirits became devils, the remaining two-thirds were not all equally valiant, there being every degree of devotion to Christ and the Father among them. The most diligent were chosen to be rulers in the kingdom (Abr. 3: 22-23). The nature of the conflict, however, is such that there could be no neutrals, then or now (Matt. 12: 30; 1 Ne. 14: 10; Alma 5: 38-40).

[musashi]

Is that the only part of the chapter that is literal? I thought this chapter was alot like the other chapters of revelation. Symbolic.

[MaidservantX]

Symbolic does not mean fictional. In fact, if there is a symbol of any given thing, then there is a reality behind the symbol, else why the symbol?

Damnation is not God punishing one of his children. God does not punish his children. Damnation is a warning against Satan's power, and against the consequences inherent in a physical world, not a threatening with God's power. I do not know what the New Testament Greek word that translated into that (also damned is in Doctrine and Covenants and Book of Mormon), but the Latin etymology for 'damned' means lost, hurt, damaged. As in -- one's full potential as a child of God has been forfeited and there will be pain because of that. Skimming through the verses in the Topical Guide that use the word damned, I never once get the idea that God is the one damning. It rather seems to be a reality of the universe that we need to be aware of and take steps to protect ourselves from. (By the way, Old Testament never uses the word 'damned', although 'condemned' is used a couple of times.)

John 3:17 "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned; but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil."

There is, of course, judgment in God's plan, but it is not necessarily spoken to in those passages that use the word damned.

And I agree with Ben, Lucifer did not become Satan with one choice. Again, God did not punish Satan so much as God gave Satan what he desired to the degree that He could while still preserving our (everone else's) agency, peace and happiness. Now, of course, OUR agency, peace and happiness requires that Satan be thwarted by Christ at every possible turn until the end when the Adversary will be given his own place (the Pit I think they call it?) Why would God give Satan what he desired? Because Lucifer was his child and also Lucifer had his agency, same as anyone.

[CrimsonKairos]

God does not punish his children.

He certainly does. This sounds like some kind of drugstore psychology. We sin, and God punishes us with the removal of the Spirit and He withholds blessings too. If He is the source of all our blessings, and if He doesn't bless the wicked, then that's punishing them, no?

I do not know what the New Testament Greek word that translated into [damned]

Mat 23:33 "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?"

The Greek word is krisis, meaning " separation, sundering, judgment...".

Damnation can be defined as many things. Ultimately, it is an eternal separation between us and God and His choicest blessings. It is a punishment, to be sure. God can still love us and punish us. Any good parent punishes their kids when they misbehave.

And I agree with Ben, Lucifer did not become Satan with one choice.

Who said he did?

Again, God did not punish Satan so much as God gave Satan what he desired to the degree that He could...

I can't agree with that at all. What do you mean? How did God casting Satan out of heaven give Satan what he wanted in any degree?

And one last thing: You know I think you're cool, xhen. I don't want to come across as overly harsh or critical. I just don't agree with these specific opinions, or I don't understand them. B)