Evidences Of The Great Apostasy

[Jason]

CK and Vinny,

I think that when you are taught to "read" the scriptures in a certain way (like those in the link) you are going to "see" what you have been taught to see.

I would require a paradigm shift to "see" it otherwise, and I do understand your views. But at least now when you come across those passages in the future, you can say to yourselves: "Some people think those teach us about a previous mortal life, instead of pre-existance."

And hey, that's good enough.

[vinny15]

CK and Vinny,

I think that when you are taught to "read" the scriptures in a certain way (like those in the link) you are going to "see" what you have been taught to see.

I would require a paradigm shift to "see" it otherwise, and I do understand your views. But at least now when you come across those passages in the future, you can say to yourselves: "Some people think those teach us about a previous mortal life, instead of pre-existance."

And hey, that's good enough.

Ya I know what your talking about. I read a book called the divine center by steven covey and he talks about different maps. And that we need to preach the gospel according to anotehr persons map.

I know I was taught acertain way of reading scriptures, but Ive broken away from that and I found for myself that the church was true. I didnt want to have blind faith ya know.

I understand the scriptures sited in those links and I know how they can resemble reincarnation, but I also know the bible says we die once.

Eh.. I like the quote by our prophet. "If the church is true than it is the most important work that has ever been done, if it isnt then it is the biggest fraud of man kind" Something to that affect.

Good thing Im set in my heart and mind.

Thanks Jason. :)

[prisonchaplain]

The first thing I would like to point out is the audacity of saying no "Christian church argues that G[-]d is silent" on an LDS site. Are you one who claims Latter-Day Saints are not Christians?

Your quote is accurate. The conclusion you draw from it is unwarranted. Do LDS argue that God is silent? If you are looking to be attacked or insulted for your faith, you will have to look elsewhere.

Second: the second line contradicts the original about Christian consensus regarding the silence from heaven. Oh, I understand what you are saying about personal revelation, the roles of teachers, evangelists, and the righteous in general, but what about leadership from heaven for all humanity? Has the Christian Canon been updated by more than just Latter-Day Saints and Jehovah's Witnesses and the number of modernized translations of the canon?

I think what you are getting at is whether or not the Bible is missing important truths, as Smith claimed. In answer, even the Jehovah's Witnesses do not claim that the canon remains open. Rather, we argue that what God gave is applicable to modern times, and is not outdated. As I often proclaim, "I don't need a new truth, but rather wisdom and courage to apply the old truths that have stood the test of time."

Please let me know where I can go for modern revelation regarding racism, middle-class oppression of women, minorities, and the poor and hate-speech I know where to find references to all those in the NT and OT, but what about when it is okay to wage war and when it is not? Oh and what about if G-d just wanted to say pay attention to a few finer points?

The answers to all these queries lies with the teachers and the personal direction of the Holy Spirit in discerning the Word of God. Additionally, as a pentecostal, I can look forward to hearing personal and local "words from the Lord," via the gifts of the Spirit (tongues with interpretation, and prophetic utterances).

What if G-d wanted to say WATCH OUT FOR DRUGS, smoking is kinda stupid, alcohol often leads to problems in the home, abuse, and disease, and to tell women that Paul might have gotten it wrong about speaking in church? Or that he was simply a man of his times and that the times have changed?

Same answers. They are sufficient. BTW, Paul did not "get it wrong." His writings are often misunderstood, when pulled out of context.

There are hundreds of reasons to receive modern revelation beyond what I have listed here that might not have been contemporary issues in the first century Mediterranean Rim. I'm sure G-d would have things to say, but for some reason the Christian consensus is that heaven is silent and that those who believe otherwise are not Christians and thus heretics.

And, once again, I would argue that nobody in the Christian world is saying that heaven is silent. Further, I have yet to see any reasons why the Bible taught by those gifted to teach, studied by those who seek the Spirit's leading, combined with the gifts of tongues/interpretation/prophecy are not sufficient means for God to keep his church on track.

I'm sure you did not mean any of the above and that actually most likely we are all Christians (except for Jason the follower of John Hick) and as Christians we ought to be united in an effort to help the world better itself and claw itself out of the pit it is digging for itself.

I said what you quoted. You've drawn an offensive conclusion that has no basis in my words. Frankly, I'm not very pleased with the insinuation that I communicated some kind of insult, when none was offered.

[BenRaines]

I have never seen PC be anything but kind in offering his views of what he believes and never attacking what LDS believe.

Remember this is a forum that allows us to state and discuss what our beliefs are. Attacks on LDS beliefs are not to be allowed and attacks on Non LDS for their beliefs are not allowed either.

Express how you believe but not how you think others should if it attacks their belief.

Ben Raines

[CrimsonKairos]

Word.

[Jason]

So CK, when did you start talking street?

[the Ogre]

I have never seen PC be anything but kind in offering his views of what he believes and never attacking what LDS believe.

Remember this is a forum that allows us to state and discuss what our beliefs are. Attacks on LDS beliefs are not to be allowed and attacks on Non LDS for their beliefs are not allowed either.

Express how you believe but not how you think others should if it attacks their belief.

Ben Raines

Ben,

I appreciate and thank you for your advice. I've been lurking for a couple of weeks before trying to get involved and I find PC and a couple others to be patronizing. I'm glad they are interested, but their didacticism is sometimes hard to take and that they are clichéd examples of people who feel Latter-day Saints are ignorant zealots/savages who need the wise guidance of older brothers.

Thank you again.

Aaron the Ogre

[CrimsonKairos]

I dun didn't used t'know nuthin about da d*** streets. Den ah' went on mah' mission and figured out alot uh stuff. Names, wo'ds, all so'ts uh terminology. Slap mah fro! Now I'm some betta' man. 'S coo', bro.

(note: the above is just a joke. I used the dialecticizer to change my hypothetical response into "jive" talk. Go here to convert webapges or just your text into funny "dialects."

'S coo' bro. B)

[the Ogre]

Love it.

So my above post should have been:

ah appreesheeate an' thank yo' fo' yer advice. I've been lurkin' fo' a couple of weeks befo'e tryin' t'git involved an' ah find PC an' a couple others t'be patronizin'. ah's glad they is interested, but their didackicism is sometimes hard t'take an' thet they is clichéd examples of [people] who feel Latter-day Saints is igno'ant zealots/savages who need th' wise guidance of older brothers.

Aaron the Ogre

[a-train]

Sheesh,

You guys are officially bored.

-a-train

[CrimsonKairos]

'S coo', bro.

[prisonchaplain]

I appreciate and thank you for your advice. I've been lurking for a couple of weeks before trying to get involved and I find PC and a couple others to be patronizing. I'm glad they are interested, but their didacticism is sometimes hard to take and that they are clichéd examples of people who feel Latter-day Saints are ignorant zealots/savages who need the wise guidance of older brothers.

Thank you again.

Aaron the Ogre

I have nothing but hope for better exchanges in the future. My prayer is that you will see my good works (posts) and glorify God in heaven.

[the Ogre]

I have nothing but hope for better exchanges in the future. My prayer is that you will see my good works (posts) and glorify God in heaven.

Hi PC,

I am not a nice person, nor do I try to be (though on other BBSs I can be absolutely horrid). I'm an Army brat and Army Vet that has dealt with bigoted chaplains and local pastors since I was five until I got out in 1990. I have no patience for people who think it is their role to teach me the error of my ways through deception. I believe you are free to believe what you believe. I believe what I believe and do what I need to. My family and I have experienced bigotry from mainstream American and International Pandenominationals in many forms often with results that have hurt us and so I tend to be assertive (the best defense is a good offence).

I believe in the redemption. I believe in the Pentecost (though I might understand it differently than do you). I believe that the apostasy still lives with us today in the spirit of deafness many Christians (Mormons too, I dislike that word--it's hatespeech--but I use it to indicate cultural Mormons regardless of their membership or non-membership in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) practice regarding the inspiration and direct revelation humanity has received from heaven in the traditional canon and in the expanded canon Joseph Smith received and in the inspired words directed to multiple congregations LDS or not from the millions of churches, pulpits, street-corners, and tree-stumps around the world. I believe in grace and works. I believe in being saved, converted, and exalted. I believe in LDS evangelism. I believe in doing good to all people, but I do not believe people should be misrepresented by the use of jargon that might not be familiar to them.

I know Latter-day Saints are Christians (even if not everyone acts like it all the time). I know Latter-day Saints worship the exact same Messiah worshiped around the world and even by Mainstream American Protestants.

Every knee must bow and every tongue must confess and then act on such confession. I hope what you have said in the section I quoted above is accurate, but many of your past posts do not reflect your good intensions.

I will endeavor to bridle my heavy-handed tongue and envision what the world would be like if the deafness the world experiences disappeared (particularly since the moderators would appreciate it and I don't want to get kicked off this site).

Aaron the Ogre

[CrimsonKairos]

PC is cool, man. He has a long history here of tactful discourse, thoughtful exchanges, and very, very fair-minded dialogue from a non-LDS Christian's point of view.

Don't think he's a jerk trying to tell us we're wrong, because he respects our beliefs even if he doesn't share them. Welcome to the board, and I hope you give PC a chance. He rocks.

[vinny15]

I dont know PC well. lol.

I dont know the Ogre well. lol.

Welcome,

Mike