Dear German

[Vort]

Dear German,

 

You've had it rough for many years now. I know that. I'm not a hater, though. I think you're a very cool language.

 

Truth is, I think in your best moments you're beautiful, as much so as any other language, and more information-dense than most. You're not the glitzy prom queen. You're more like the studious and slightly nerdy girl who everyone would see is actually quite a beauty, if only they took the time to look past her unstyled hair and lack of makeup -- but as it is, only those guys who dislike makeup and pretense manage to notice.

 

Frankly, some things are just plain unfair. People mock you for your gutterals, but your "ch" doesn't really sound like someone clearing his throat. That's a stereotype from Hitler impersonations or something. It's actually quite a pleasant sound, when spoken with care. And your gutteral "r" is almost identical to the French "r", yet in French it's considered "beautiful". How is this fair? (Poor French has her own image problems, especially among Anglophones. I realize you and she are often not on speaking terms and that your relationship is complicated. But that's beside our point here. Maybe I'll write French her own letter later on.)

 

Anyway, back to you, German. Where do I start the list of wonders?

• The fact is that I love those German cognates! I see Der Mann ist alt, and I get all tingly! It's almost like reading in Englisch, but different! And I have to laugh at my own mistakes, like reading the above sentence as "The man is tall." Hilarious! I'm missing my own linguistic cognate because of Romance language interference! I think alt=alto rather than alt=old.
• Mädchen! What a wonderful word! It's like something from a fairy language.
• Plus how you get that "sch-" sound for every word that starts with s-consonant. Not every language gives you that kind of bonus. Nosirree, that's plain German goodness!

And it doesn't stop here. The list goes on. You're like the cousin I never really knew, then found out that you're not only familiar, but dang, you're hot! A kissing cousin!

 

But dear German, you do have...how can I put this...issues. Spinach stuck between your teeth, as it were. Or maybe something less superficial than this, more structural, like six fingers on each hand. Now perhaps that's just part of your charm and allure, but it does tend to be off-putting.

 

First off, there's the whole gender thing. I'm very good friends with Italian and well-acquainted with her sisters French and Spanish (not so much with the baby sister Portuguese), and they all do gender, too. But, German, come on -- THREE genders? Really? Don't you think that juuuuuuuuust a bit of overkill? I realize that the Romance's parent Latin had three genders -- but Latin is dead. There's a reason for that, German. In the 21st century, three genders is more likely to apply to pop social theory than linguistics. It's time to move on.

 

Then there are the various definite articles. Look, as I said, Italian and I are buds, and she has a whole load of definite articles. But, see, when she says il or la or lo or l', I know she's talking singular. If she wants plural, she uses i or le or, if she's having a bad day, gli. Same with her sisters. But you, German, honestly, what are you thinking? Die is singular and plural? Do you really think that's wise?

 

And here's another point of the gender deal. Since when did Mädchen get assigned as neuter? And then you don't even give it its own plural form? German, WHAT WERE YOU THINKING? I see die Mädchen, I'm assuming we are talking about One Feminine Girl. SImple. Logical. No confusion. If we're talking about several girls, then maybe they're, I don't know, die Mädchenen or something. What the heck sense does das Mädchen even make?! You think I want to go out on a date with some neuter? Yes, the Romance chicks have their own problems with this gender stuff, but you take it to a new level.

 

Also, do you really have to decline the heck out of Every Single Substantive? I speak English. I'm okay with singular and plural. I can even do a genitive. But your accusatives really rankle me. Would you really be any worse off if you quit saying deinen Whatevertheheckthewordisen and just used a normal nominative? It's not like you aren't already doing that with half your words. So you have a special declension that is precisely the same as another declension, except when it isn't. Brilliant.

 

Special cases really don't help make your meaning clear. They come across like you're just being cliquish. This might have something to do with your ongoing feud with French, you know. Just saying.

 

Listen, I'm not trying to pile on. We all have our little quirks. I'm sure I'll have more to say on the topic as I continue learning about you. But don't take it as harsh personal criticism. Consider it more like constructive feedback from a concerned and caring relative. A kissing cousin. *wink*

 

With sincere affection,

Your American admirer

[Guest]

Dear Vort,

 

I really really think you'll make millions of dollars writing the next book-to-movie story.

 

With sincere awe,

just me.

[JimmiGerman]

A real eulogy (not meant in the American understanding as a funeral oration, but more laudatory), although quite critically. 

 

 

 

In the 21st century, three genders is more likely to apply to pop social theory than linguistics. It's time to move on.

 

I don't guess you mean to move on even for a fourth one...? 

 

 

What the heck sense does das Mädchen even make?!

 

Well, what does always make sense...? Our language is probably based on a masculine position (from its developement), and a girl is just considered sexuell neutrally there (Mädchen, Fräulein, Frau). Therefore, this would be my explanation.

Edited February 7, 2015 by JimmiGerman

[classylady]

Vort, did you remember the formal and informal conversation--Sie und du sprache?  The gender thing, and whether to speak formally or informally can be intimidating.

[theSQUIDSTER]

Vort, did you remember the formal and informal conversation--Sie und du sprache?  The gender thing, and whether to speak formally or informally can be intimidating.

 

It's not really so intimidating anymore.  Use "sie" sprache in formal situations... business contacts, boss, and such... Other than that you can probably get away with duzen more often than not... unless if the person is really old...  It's kind of a generational thing... German in this day and age is much more casual that way than it used to be a few decades ago...

 

I often meet complete strangers on the internet (German-speaking) and if I use sie-sprache they usually think that's kind of funny and old-fashioned... 

 

Was glaubst du, JimmiGerman?  Am I offending you with the duzen?  :)  

[JimmiGerman]

Was glaubst du, JimmiGerman?  Am I offending you with the duzen?   :)

 

No, certainly not, and you are absolutely right when you say it's true it has become more casual

this day that way than it used to be a few decades ago in Germany.

 

 

I often meet complete strangers on the internet (German-speaking) and if I use sie-sprache they usually think that's kind of funny and old-fashioned...

 

The normal way of discussing in a German internet forum is by using the "du"-form.

Edited February 7, 2015 by JimmiGerman

[kapikui]

 

First off, there's the whole gender thing. I'm very good friends with Italian and well-acquainted with her sisters French and Spanish (not so much with the baby sister Portuguese), and they all do gender, too. But, German, come on -- THREE genders? Really? Don't you think that juuuuuuuuust a bit of overkill? I realize that the Romance's parent Latin had three genders -- but Latin is dead. There's a reason for that, German. In the 21st century, three genders is more likely to apply to pop social theory than linguistics. It's time to move on.

 

English has three genders too, we just stopped calling inanimate objects he or she.

[JimmiGerman]

English has three genders too, we just stopped calling inanimate objects he or she.

 

I would agree. There is he / she / it in English, but only with one and the same article, the. Maybe in English there has been a grammatical superficiality (except the tenses). But there is a certain tendency, at least in American English (maybe influenced by German immigrants), for using male or female pronouns, i.e. in the proverb "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink", and a ship is always "she".  I'm sure there could be more examples found.

Edited February 7, 2015 by JimmiGerman

[JimmiGerman]

Vort said:

 

Plus how you get that "sch-" sound for every word that starts with s-consonant. Not every language gives you that kind of bonus. Nosirree, that's plain German goodness!

 

But not for every word that starts with s-consonant, but iwhen a word starts with st / sp, i.e.  Startbahn, Standard, Stange, Stagnation, Spielplatz, Sprengler, Sportveranstaltung, Spaß etc. However, in Hamburg, decades ago, there was a strong tendency to pronounce st / sp not in the sch-way, but wit a real s.  That was a characteristic of the Hamburg dialect, and it still can be said, that people from other parts of Germany can identify us easily by our typical accent.

Edited February 7, 2015 by JimmiGerman

[JimmiGerman]

 

Edited February 7, 2015 by JimmiGerman

[theSQUIDSTER]

Hamborch...

[JimmiGerman]

Hamborch...

 

Jo.

 

   Hans-Albers-Platz, Hamburg St-Pauli (image showing Hans Albers memorial)

Edited February 8, 2015 by JimmiGerman

[skalenfehl]

And why did the Germans assign the article das rather than die to Mädchen? 

[JimmiGerman]

And why did the Germans assign the article das rather than die to Mädchen? 

 

As I've mentioned here before, it's maybe because our language is probably based on a masculine position or standpoint (by its historical and grammatical structures), and a girl has been considered neutrally, under some assumed protection or convention of untouchability,  as long as a girl hasn't become a woman.    ...das Mädchen, das Fräulein (the girl has become a "Frau" but hasn't been married yet), die Frau, die Ehefrau, die Dame

 

The example given by you is probably based on a masculine position and linguistic traditions. There is no systematic logic you will find behind those der / die / das articles - or any kind of mysterious meanings.

 

See it this way: the whole thing once started, and if you had the choice of the article that has to be assigned to a noun, which article would you have chosen, if there were no clearly defined rules, except the subject showed obvious female attributes...?

 

And remember the old American proverb:  why can you lead him (your horse) to water but can't make him drink? Even if "him" was a "she"...? 

 

... 

Edited February 8, 2015 by JimmiGerman

[Vort]

I believe the "Mädchen" is because Mädchen is actually a diminutive, and German diminutives are usually neuter. Or so I've read.

 

(I must admit, the idea of me giving German etymology lessons makes me laugh.)

[JimmiGerman]

I believe the "Mädchen" is because Mädchen is actually a diminutive, and German diminutives are usually neuter. Or so I've read.

 

(I must admit, the idea of me giving German etymology lessons makes me laugh.)

 

I think you are right, Vort, I've overseen that point.  ... das Mädchen, das Fräulein, das Frauchen, das Hündchen (little dog), das Jüngelchen  (little boy), das Bengelein (a naughty little boy, from der Bengel), das Händchen (little hand), das Kindchen (but das Kind is neutrum, anyway), das Männchen (little, fragile man)  etc.

 

"Das Mädchen", indeed, is maybe a diminutive of "die Maid" ("das Maidchen...?"), an Old German word. On the other hand I can't see any rule or logic in general for assigning an article to a noun. Maybe there are some rules (sometimes depending on the ending of the noun, i.e. nouns ending with an "e" very often have the feminine article, but what about "der Riese"...? Yea, "der RIESE" (the giant) is BIG and STRONG, so, of course, it can't be feminine... On the other hand there exists the word "Riesin", a female Riese...    Leave me alone.

 

If you questioned me I would certainly know the correct article for 99.9 % of all German nouns, without any problem, spontanically, and without thinking about it. We simply know it. Anyway, for any mysterious reason this knowledge seems to be very important for us, as it's apparently very important for a hamster to run pointlessly miles and miles only in his traversing wheel...  sorry, in its traversing wheel. 

Edited February 8, 2015 by JimmiGerman

[Vort]

WHAT?!

 

FOUR CASES?

 

You must be kidding. You have a separate dative? Why not just add an ablative so you can be like Latin?

Oh, German, German... 

[JimmiGerman]

WHAT?!

 

FOUR CASES?

 

You must be kidding. You have a separate dative? Why not just add an ablative so you can be like Latin?

Oh, German, German... 

 

 Like "gladiator gladio pugnat". We don't know such a case in German, and we use, as in English, prepositions to manage it. There are still Indo-Germanic languages (i.e. Albanian), but not many, where the ablative can be found; but there is no Germanic language.

 

Weltdeusch (Universal German) was planned to be developed and introduced as an international Lingua Franca for all German territories  http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weltdeutsch  during the colonial times of the German Kaiserreich, with only one article (de instead of der / die / das) and with even more simplifications regarding declinations and conjugations.

 

How would it only have sounded if it had been realized...?

Edited February 10, 2015 by JimmiGerman

[PolarVortex]

 By the way... wasn't there a prominent American spot-on beauty once stating in a surprised manner there was a country in Europe called "Hungry"...?

 

Funny, I just saw this a few weeks ago.  Certainly many men would be just as... um... unfamiliar with world geography.

 

If you're pressed for time, skip to 2:10 in the video for the important part. 

 

But in fairness, Jimmi, some Europeans are just as ignorant of North American geography.  I once met a British man who told me he wanted to fly to the United States drive around all five of the Great Lakes in one day.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cey35bBWXls

[JimmiGerman]

Funny, I just saw this a few weeks ago.  Certainly many men would be just as... um... unfamiliar with world geography.

 

If you're pressed for time, skip to 2:10 in the video for the important part. 

 

But in fairness, Jimmi, some Europeans are just as ignorant of North American geography.  I once met a British man who told me he wanted to fly to the United States drive around all five of the Great Lakes in one day.

 

 

Thanks for the video. She really seemed to be a bit unfamiliar with geography, but she was spot-on, anyway, and at last she managed to win 25,000 bucks!

 

Sorry, in the meantime I've edited my posting, because I was afraid it could have been too long mentioning Hungarian language, that spot-on lady in the video, and containing too much information on German colonial history. Thus, I thought I was waisting too much attention and would become off-topic by talking in that long-winded way.

 

And now the inevitable question is coming:

 

Have you told that British Gentleman about the Iroquois warriors and warned him they were on a warpath in that area, and he should better not wear half a melon on his head to avoid making them upset?

Edited February 10, 2015 by JimmiGerman

[PolarVortex]

Quatsch.  This thread is in General Discussion, which is described as: "Topics of any nature are allowed, as long as they do not break LDS Talk Rules."  Threads go where they go, like fractals.  Nothing is out of scope.  That's part of their charm.

 

The British gentleman and I shared a train compartment on a trip from London to York.  We had a wonderful conversation about differences between the United States and Britain.  

 

I was puzzled why the British refer to my country so much as "America," which sound elevated and literary to me.  I am an "American," but I would normally refer to my country as "the U.S.," rarely as "America" or "the States."

 

He was puzzled why Gary Hart had to drop out of the U.S. presidential race just for his sexcapades with Donna Rice.  (It was 1988.)  

 

I was puzzled why checkers in British supermarkets refuse to bag groceries for you.

 

He was puzzled why I would even consider going to Cardiff for a day trip from London.  "Do not tell anyone what you're doing," he whispered.  "They will think you very strange indeed."

 

I was puzzled why anything like a "shadow government" could be even remotely useful.

 

And, of course, he was puzzled when I broke the news that you can't drive around the Great Lakes on a single Sunday afternoon.  (I just checked on Google Maps, and actually you can drive around all the Great Lakes in six hours.  You just have to maintain an average speed of 320 miles per hour and you can't stop.)

 

Vive la différence!

[JimmiGerman]

(...)

And, of course, he was puzzled when I broke the news that you can't drive around the Great Lakes on a single Sunday afternoon.  (I just checked on Google Maps, and actually you can drive around all the Great Lakes in six hours.  You just have to maintain an average speed of 320 miles per hour and you can't stop.)

 

Vive la différence!

 

If he had driven with that speed, he probably would have had less trouble with the Iroquoi, who maybe even adored him as the great storm warrior,  but more with the authorities by violation of all speed limits.

 

I was puzzled why checkers in British supermarkets refuse to bag groceries for you.

 

You mean the cashiers? (checkers...?) They don't do it here, either, and we have to do it by ourselves. No service like that here in Germany, too.

 

And maybe we Germans would even say: keep your hands away! 

Edited February 10, 2015 by JimmiGerman

[PolarVortex]

You mean the cashiers? (checkers...?) They don't do it here, either, and we have to do it by ourselves. No service like that here in Germany, too.

 

Yes, I've noticed that.  I've also noticed that German Apotheken are quite different from American drug stores.  In the U.S., pretty much everything is on the open shelves and customers simply take what they want.  In Germany, much of the merchandise tends to be behind the counter.  You have to open a short conversation with the clerk to explain what you want, and he or she fetches it for you.  In the U.S., the only merchandise behind the counter tends to be cigarettes and batteries.

 

And yes, they're often called "checkers" in U.S. grocery stores.  "Cashiers" are found in casinos or old-fashioned banks.  But "cashier" would be understood if you said it.  This is not the case with "water closet," though.  Many Germans pass through my part of California as tourists, and once in a while I'll overhear them asking where the "water closet" is.  This term is utterly baffling to Americans who have not traveled in Europe.  

[JimmiGerman]

Yes, I've noticed that.  I've also noticed that German Apotheken are quite different from American drug stores.  In the U.S., pretty much everything is on the open shelves and customers simply take what they want.  In Germany, much of the merchandise tends to be behind the counter.  You have to open a short conversation with the clerk to explain what you want, and he or she fetches it for you.  In the U.S., the only merchandise behind the counter tends to be cigarettes and batteries.

 

And yes, they're often called "checkers" in U.S. grocery stores.  "Cashiers" are found in casinos or old-fashioned banks.  But "cashier" would be understood if you said it.  This is not the case with "water closet," though.  Many Germans pass through my part of California as tourists, and once in a while I'll overhear them asking where the "water closet" is.  This term is utterly baffling to Americans who have not traveled in Europe.  

 

Maybe it's because here are so many medicaments available only on prescription?

 

I think those German tourists asking that way for the toilets are ignorant and a bit silly. They wouldn't ask for the toilets that way in German, so why do they do it in English? Silly. No one here would ask "Wo ist denn das Wasserklosett hier, bitte?" Absolutely silly.

 

What do they think? You have sand from the Mojave desert there in your toilets in Californa?    

Edited February 10, 2015 by JimmiGerman

[PolarVortex]

I think those German tourists asking that way for the toilets are ignorant and a bit silly. They wouldn't ask for the toilets that way in German, so why do they do it in English? Silly. No one here would ask "Wo ist denn das Wasserklosett hier, bitte?" Absolutely silly.

 

Perhaps they are translating literally and thinking it's correct.  On my first visit to Germany many years ago I was in a restaurant and asked, "Können Sie mir bitte sagen, wo das Badezimmer ist?"  I learned very quickly that not all cultures call it a "bathroom" outside of a home.