A Couple Deep Thoughts I've Had.

[Newbert_Zero]

but i dont understand why he doesent just sit back and do nothing because wouldent that completly stop the plan and our progression would come to a halt? maybe its because of pride like sixpack said but it just doesent make sence why he would do that.

Maybe God needed a tempter for the plan and satan agreed that he would do it just to prove the plan wouldent work? just thinking.

[CrimsonKairos]

Well if he sat back he wouldn't get to make us miserable. I don't think Satan's only desire is to stop the Father's plan. I think one of Satan's prime desires is to make others miserable. If it was just about stopping God's plan from progressing, sure, Satan could sit back and watch us spin our wheels in neutral, so to speak.

But to see us miserable is what he wants most, and that's all he's going to get in eternity.

He has this brief slice of time to sabotage our salvation, and he's not going to just sit back and forfeit his chance to find "joy" in our misery.

We wouldn't be miserable without his temptations.

[musashi]

sixpack no offense to you, or anyone else here, but this comment is drawn from your theory - don't worry - i know you said its just a theory.

don't you think satan would know exactly what he is doing? people that suggest he is kind of unaware that he is helping in the plan, i can't agree with them. according to the story, we're the ones with the veil across our minds that can't remember what happened, not satan. he would know gods plan perfectly and i think he'd know exactly what hes doing. i don't think we would know more than him.

[CrimsonKairos]

I believe Satan knew tempting Adam and Eve would lead to God's children coming to earth, getting bodies and pursuing personal salvation.

But it also meant Satan and his minions would have lots of mortals to target and attack. Satan wants us to be miserable...not just the, "I wish I hadn't taken this job" kind of misery, but the kind that makes you weep and wail and gnash your teeth.

Satan doesn't know God's mind--or every little thing God has planned--but Satan certainly knew that salvation required us to enter mortality, and Satan surely knew that by tempting Adam and Eve he was triggering a necessary stage in our progression.

But he also knew it was the only way for him to "get at us," and do his best to make us choose wickedness (misery) over obedience (happiness).

If God's plan is called the Plan of Happiness, then Satan's plan/tactics can be called the Plan of Misery.

[TheWatcher]

This is such an engrossing topic..a lot of great comments.

I think that Satan is trying really hard to get Priesthood holders to become sons of Perdition, also anyone else he can get to join him in outer darkness, where he will be second in command to Cain.

I read this amazing book called "The First Two Thousand Years" by W. Cleon Skousen which talks about how Cain will be the leader in outer darkness rather than Cain, because he has a body and Lucifer won't. Cain is the one who taught Satan a lot about what carnal desires are and how to tempt people in his day.

Just thought it was interesting as a sidenote.

[Newbert_Zero]

finally people realize what i'm talking about and this topic is becoming more interesting. Personally if I was satan i would just sit there and do nothing so that Gods plan wouldn't work you'd think satan would get more satisfaction out of that than letting progression continue with some people failing.

Lol i wonder if God is sitting in heaven laughing at satans futile attempts to thwart his plan when he is really helping it progress. Because without satan the plan wouldn't have worked.

My second point was that perhaps our God became a God through a different plan? do you think that its possible? perhaps God became God through a different plan and satan thought the plan of salvation wouldn't work. Because if there was always a plan of salvation why would satan question that it would work this time? I have a feeling people wont understand my second point either.

This is such an engrossing topic..a lot of great comments.

I think that Satan is trying really hard to get Priesthood holders to become sons of Perdition, also anyone else he can get to join him in outer darkness, where he will be second in command to Cain.

I read this amazing book called "The First Two Thousand Years" by W. Cleon Skousen which talks about how Cain will be the leader in outer darkness rather than Cain, because he has a body and Lucifer won't. Cain is the one who taught Satan a lot about what carnal desires are and how to tempt people in his day.

Just thought it was interesting as a sidenote.

Do you mean rather than satan? Thats pretty interesting I never thought about how satan knew about our carnal desires but it makes sence now.

[Newbert_Zero]

basically im saying if satan understood 2 nephi 2 you'd think he would just decide to sit around and do nothing. Id recomend reading it again if you havent done so recently. its one of my favorite scriptures.

[CrimsonKairos]

If I was Satan, I'd want to keep others from enjoying what I couldn't.

Satan will never have a physical body. Hence, one of his greatest desires is to see us abuse, misuse and cheapen our bodies in mortality.

He couldn't have gotten at any of us unless Adam fell. But Satan knew, "Hey, if I can get Adam and Eve to fall, and begin multiplying and having kids, then I'll be able to get that many more people to abuse what I will never have: a physical body."

I don't see Satan going from being the guy who wanted all of God's honor for himself, to sitting back, folding his arms and watching nothing happen.

As for your second question, I guess anything's possible. I don't think Satan was offering a different plan than Heavenly Father's plan. Everyone agreed on the plan involving a Savior.

Satan's innovation was to make him the Savior with power to make people be good. Of course, in such a case where no one sins there would be no need for a Savior to suffer and sacrifice himself, so Satan gets a pain-free ride as our Savior and we all spend eternity as nerveless, neutral, numb robots who haven't tasted the bitter and hence can't prize the good fully.

I don't think Satan was saying, "I have a different plan." I think Satan was saying, "I'll be the Savior...oh, and grant me power over everyone's agency so I can make them obey your laws...oh, and in return, you can go ahead and just get off your throne and crown me in your place."

Ummmm, yeah. Wacko.

[Newbert_Zero]

I wonder though if there were different plans that were actually good plans though. obviously satans plan was distorted and wouldn't have worked but i wonder if there were other plans that actually worked. Like what if our God went through a different plan and wanted to use a different plan on us but satan didn't think it would work so thats why he tried to stop it. Although if what i'm saying was true it makes me wonder why satan would questions Gods Infinite wisdom when God made a plan. I wonder if when (if we do) become Gods if we will have to develop our own plan too.

[sixpacktr]

sixpack no offense to you, or anyone else here, but this comment is drawn from your theory - don't worry - i know you said its just a theory.

don't you think satan would know exactly what he is doing? people that suggest he is kind of unaware that he is helping in the plan, i can't agree with them. according to the story, we're the ones with the veil across our minds that can't remember what happened, not satan. he would know gods plan perfectly and i think he'd know exactly what hes doing. i don't think we would know more than him.

Musashi,

I understand completely what you are saying and agree with you. Satan has every advantage over us in that he hasn't forgotten. But he still fights it, which is interesting...

In my last ward we had a lot of problems with the Priest age boys impregnating people. It was a huge scandal, and we in the Bishopric were pulling our hair out. Firesides, monthly PPIs, anything and everything we could think of to work with parents to get these kids from messing their lives up. I was talking to one of the counselors in the Stake Presidency, our former Bishop, about this, and he said: there were 1/3 of our HF's children, with a PERFECT KNOWLEDGE of what was right and wrong, that still choose to bypass any chance of exaltation, for whatever reason. What makes us think that we can teach any better than HF?

I thought of that a lot. He wasn't telling us to quit trying, but rather to not get so down on ourselves. Because Satan knows exactly what is happening, but still fights it, with a fury.

It is sad, really, that such a being as Lucifer can be blinded by pride and fall so far.

[Newbert_Zero]

Wow I found an amazing article that I just skimmed through that covers some of the stuff we have been talking about. Sombody on the aliens thread mentioned this article. It is really interesting you guys should read it.

http://www.lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg/menu..._&hideNav=1

[Guest Yediyd]

Wow I found an amazing article that I just skimmed through that covers some of the stuff we have been talking about. Sombody on the aliens thread mentioned this article. It is really interesting you guys should read it.

http://www.lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg/menu..._&hideNav=1

That was an awesome article!!

[tiancum]

but i dont understand why he doesent just sit back and do nothing because wouldent that completly stop the plan and our progression would come to a halt? maybe its because of pride like sixpack said but it just doesent make sence why he would do that.

you are assuming he has a choice to do that or not. He doesn't. He had become a slave to his plan, he has no choice left. He cannot do good. Remember, because he is a slave makes him unable to understand "the mind of God"

It takes the holy ghost to understand the plan of happiness. Something that he has never had help him. He simply does not understand things of the spirit. He is not capable. We sorta take that for grated...understanding the plan....even a little, but there are more wonderful things to learn about it.

[sixpacktr]

<div class='quotemain'>

but i dont understand why he doesent just sit back and do nothing because wouldent that completly stop the plan and our progression would come to a halt? maybe its because of pride like sixpack said but it just doesent make sence why he would do that.

you are assuming he has a choice to do that or not. He doesn't. He had become a slave to his plan, he has no choice left. He cannot do good. Remember, because he is a slave makes him unable to understand "the mind of God"

It takes the holy ghost to understand the plan of happiness. Something that he has never had help him. He simply does not understand things of the spirit. He is not capable. We sorta take that for grated...understanding the plan....even a little, but there are more wonderful things to learn about it.

Tiancum,

Yeah, that is very true. I think that we as members forget that we have the right to the HG when we do what is right, and his purpose is to illuminate our minds. Satan no longer has that right, and is therefore left to his own devices to work things out. I know I take it for granted because I have had it for so long, and while I know when the spirit leaves (I can literally feel it), it is nothing like what Satan goes thru (D&C 19:20).

Good point!

[Gwen]

Abraham 3

24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;

25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;

26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.

27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.

28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.

moses 4

1 And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.

2 But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.

3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;

“Lesson 28: Agency,” Young Women Manual 2, 105

Note to the teacher

In the following discussion, be certain that the young women understand that Heavenly Father presented the only plan. Jesus accepted it and volunteered to be the Savior; Lucifer rejected it and rebelled.

dr phil "If you harbor hatred and anger and bitterness, then you are absolutly locked into a bond with that person through those negative emotions. anger and bitterness is a pervasive emotion. it crowds into everything, it changes who you are, it makes you distrustful, it makes you guarded, it makes you realy a different person than you are; and your children will pay the price for that, if you do. so you have to say i let it go. i'm gonna live now. the past is over the future hasn't happened yet. the only time with you is now, with your family and those chrildren." (may 06)

so that's my list of quotes lol the reason i picked those.... taught this lesson on agency recently and realized something for the first time. i had been taught before (didn't realize it wasn't chruch teaching till i read it here) that satan's down fall wasn't his idea but his pride when the idea was rejected. i have always believed that. i recall asking when i was in the youth program, "why did satan tempt adam and eve, the garden was his plan, if he had let it alone there would be no progression, he would have won?" along the same line as the questions here. i accepted that pride was the root never really understanding it. then when teaching this lesson on agency something jumped off the page and hit me like never before. "and the second was angry" that brings me to the dr phil quote lol i no longer believe it was pride (pride alone i mean) but the greater motivator is anger. anger is nasty stuff. it makes no logical since. it destroys. it is truely the base emotion that satan lives off of and drives us toward. he came to hate our father, that locked him into a self distructive bond with him. i don't think he realized the garden was his plan, he saw it as what the father created, must be his plan, i must destroy that, i must get them to do anything and everything they were told not to do. he coudln't/can't think outside that anger. he can't walk away, let it go. he is controled by that anger.

we are currently in a situation where there is someone so angry at us that she will do anything to destroy us. she has promised that. she does everything and anything to try to make us look bad. she doesn't care if she looks bad as long as she thinks we look worse. any time someone she had in her power to help her decides they will not be destroyed with her and join her cause 100% they then become on her most hated list. she recently used a loophole in the law to hurt our family. she got what she wanted, and it hurt. but in the process the church leaders told her that this was a legal loophole and they hated it was being used to hurt us, that she was wrong. now she is threatening to sue the chruch. she got what she wanted but they rebuked her in the process, they didn't agree. so she hates them even though she got what she wanted. she had legal officials "on her side" but has gone so far to try to make us look bad that she has upset them. she used to be nice to them, these legal officials used to comment that we were as much a problem as her cause she was so nice, but as soon as they stood against her in her efforts to hurt us and said this is out of line; she now is against them. ppl that do this for a living have commented that she is one of the most difficult and deceptive ppl they have ever delt with. her anger is driving her. one thing we've been feeling for a long time is that we should do nothing. just keep letting her do things. give her the rope, she will hang herself. and that is what she is doing. not responding with hurt and anger back (and some of the offenses have been bad) we are trying to remain calm and just let it happen. it's one of the hardest things i've ever had to do. but i can see it. she is only hurting herself. with every step and breath she brings against us it is backfireing. only making her more angery, causing her to take it one step further than the last time. the hole is getting deeper and deeper. i do believe unless something drastic happens she will not stop until she has compleatly destroyed herself and all those relationships around her. she will be left with nothing but her anger.

if i take this same anger and compare it to what satan is doing it all makes since. why he would go against himself. he is smart enough to see it, but to angry to see it. each loss (irreguardless of the wins) drives him to become more angry. it's a vicious and destructive cycle. the only way out is to let go of the anger. only the person feeling the anger can let go of it. yes pride is powerful and somewhat connected to the problem, but don't underestimate anger.

[TheWatcher]

finally people realize what i'm talking about and this topic is becoming more interesting. Personally if I was satan i would just sit there and do nothing so that Gods plan wouldn't work you'd think satan would get more satisfaction out of that than letting progression continue with some people failing.

Lol i wonder if God is sitting in heaven laughing at satans futile attempts to thwart his plan when he is really helping it progress. Because without satan the plan wouldn't have worked.

My second point was that perhaps our God became a God through a different plan? do you think that its possible? perhaps God became God through a different plan and satan thought the plan of salvation wouldn't work. Because if there was always a plan of salvation why would satan question that it would work this time? I have a feeling people wont understand my second point either.

<div class='quotemain'>

This is such an engrossing topic..a lot of great comments.

I think that Satan is trying really hard to get Priesthood holders to become sons of Perdition, also anyone else he can get to join him in outer darkness, where he will be second in command to Cain.

I read this amazing book called "The First Two Thousand Years" by W. Cleon Skousen which talks about how Cain will be the leader in outer darkness rather than Cain, because he has a body and Lucifer won't. Cain is the one who taught Satan a lot about what carnal desires are and how to tempt people in his day.

Just thought it was interesting as a sidenote.

Do you mean rather than satan? Thats pretty interesting I never thought about how satan knew about our carnal desires but it makes sence now.

OOOPS! Yes, I meant to say that Cain will reign rather than Lucifer/Satan........thanks for catching that, Newbert!

[CrimsonKairos]

Satan is a sadist.

In fact, he probably tutored the "Marquis de Sade."

He gets his kicks from our pain and misery.

That's why he acts against God. He doesn't care that God will win in the end.

Satan is a sadist, feels "joy" at our pain, and he cannot change that now.

[Adomini22]

Ck is right. The last few posts have been really good. I personally enjoyed the one about the anger. I have heard some things regarding different plans, why there needed to be a council, etc. But I wont comment on that cause there is still alot I dont know. I do think, however, that the council was done regarding the plan, and the council is eternal, hence, every person was present, those who were before us, and those who will follow long after us. Isnt it interesting that one of the first things shown to prophets was the council where it all began? That is totally awesome.

[sixpacktr]

Ck is right. The last few posts have been really good. I personally enjoyed the one about the anger. I have heard some things regarding different plans, why there needed to be a council, etc. But I wont comment on that cause there is still alot I dont know. I do think, however, that the council was done regarding the plan, and the council is eternal, hence, every person was present, those who were before us, and those who will follow long after us. Isnt it interesting that one of the first things shown to prophets was the council where it all began? That is totally awesome.

I think of it as one HUGE General Conference, with HF, Jesus and the HG presiding, all his children there, and the plan was put up for a "sustaining vote", and we could either accept or deny. For us, it is where it all began, because we made our first big decision: which way will I go?

[CrimsonKairos]

I probably would've used an absentee ballot...I'd most likely have been watching a super-nova somewhere and been unable to tear myself away. B)

[Newbert_Zero]

Ck is right. The last few posts have been really good. I personally enjoyed the one about the anger. I have heard some things regarding different plans, why there needed to be a council, etc. But I wont comment on that cause there is still alot I dont know. I do think, however, that the council was done regarding the plan, and the council is eternal, hence, every person was present, those who were before us, and those who will follow long after us. Isnt it interesting that one of the first things shown to prophets was the council where it all began? That is totally awesome.

Please do that is the other thing I am very interested to learn about. Ive been wondering if there were different plans.

[CrimsonKairos]

I don't think there could be any other plan.

Through the atonement, Jesus doesn't fulfill Justice or pay Justice. Christ overpowers Justice.

Justice can only be overpowered for the sake of a perfect being who has suffered a supreme injustice out of love for someone else.

In other words, Christ's suffering and death on the cross for our sins is capable of arousing a fulness of pity in God's heart, which leads Him to remit or erase or blot out our sins for Christ's sake.

This is an oversimplification, and my views on how the atonement works are not common Sunday school fare (I don't think Gethsemane had anything to do with suffering the specific punishments for our every sin). In fact I don't buy the penal-substitution model of atonement at all which is pretty much the unofficial theory taught in our Church classes, to wit:

Christ took our punishment in our place so we don't have to suffer if we repent, and Justice is satisfied because someone had to take the punishment, and mercy can be extended because we don't have to suffer the punishment.

I don't think the atonement is about remitting the punishment for sins at all, if by punishment we mean spiritual anguish, forfeited blessings, guilt, regret, etc... I think the atonement is about the remission of sins, period, and that's a very different thing. Remission means they disappear from our spiritual record, and we become perfect in Christ (sharing his perfect obedience), and hence, we become worthy of returning to live with a sinless, perfect Father in Heaven. But separation from God is just one punishment for sin, and most people I know don't mean that when they say, "Christ suffered for my sins so I don't have to if I repent." They refer to other punishments, imagined or actual, which they feel accompany sinful acts.

Make no mistake, whenever you or I sin, we will pay a price...we will suffer. Wickedness never was happiness.

What the council in Heaven was about was who would God send to be the Savior figure who would undergo an injustice so complete that it would convince everyone who considers it--whether us or God--to cease demanding Justice have its claim on the repentant sinner for the Savior's sake.

Satan knew he couldn't fill the role of Savior in that model of atonement, because Satan wasn't perfect. Only a sinless or perfect being suffering unjustly without complaint can get things done. Satan's answer was really the only other alternative: If he couldn't convince God to forget our sinful past in order that we might return to live with Him, then Satan would make sure no one would sin so he wouldn't have to deal with the overpowering Justice/remission of sins thing at all.

[sixpacktr]

I probably would've used an absentee ballot...I'd most likely have been watching a super-nova somewhere and been unable to tear myself away. B)

CK,

Maybe, but you had probably seen so many of them, as well as other more fantastic things that it was old hat by then...After your 10th supernova, they're all the same anyway!

[Guest BillP]

<div class='quotemain'>

Ck is right. The last few posts have been really good. I personally enjoyed the one about the anger. I have heard some things regarding different plans, why there needed to be a council, etc. But I wont comment on that cause there is still alot I dont know. I do think, however, that the council was done regarding the plan, and the council is eternal, hence, every person was present, those who were before us, and those who will follow long after us. Isnt it interesting that one of the first things shown to prophets was the council where it all began? That is totally awesome.

Please do that is the other thing I am very interested to learn about. Ive been wondering if there were different plans.

The comment on Justice is quite interesting, particularly when Joseph Smith indicated one of God's necessary attributes is Justice, and Judgement.

[CrimsonKairos]

What's your point? God is Just.