Did You Know There Is Such A Thing As An "anti" Sinner?

[prisonchaplain]

This whole thing of loud fundamentalist sign-waving, bullhorn blaring, 'evangelists to the LDS' phenomena got me to thinking that sometimes Christians in general can be kinda thoughtless. This came to a head when I was discussing the sudden increase in interactions I have been having with LDS (both volunteers and inmates at the jail). The officer mentions that she knows an LDS couple. "The husband is okay with me, but the wife clearly has a problem with me."

I was (dumbfounded).

She read my look and said, "You know--that I'm gay and all?"

I did not know. And, here I was, the consevative, evangelical, pentecostal, facing one issue in which our churches agree. Yet, I know this officer as being professional, polite and nice.

Then the answer came to me--I believe prompted by the Spirit. "Why? You shouldn't effect HER morality."

"Exactly!" she answers.

You see, I do not know the officer's religion. She does not go to my church, and has never indicated that she was a Christian. So, why would I condemn her as a person for not practicing a particular ethic that I hold for purely religious reasons?

She's more likely to leave her lifestyle after conversion than beforehand. Further, leaving the sin wouldn't, of itself, bring her any closer to God.

THOUGHTS?

[Guest Yediyd]

Ummm, just one...

...What does that have to do with those crazy lunatics that accost us Mormons every chance they get?

Sorry, never mind...I just re-read your post and I see the tie...

[CrimsonKairos]

Further, leaving the sin wouldn't, of itself, bring her any closer to God.

That's debatable.

She may be happy in her lifestyle, but it's transitory happiness that cannot last.

For that reason, I feel sorry for her.

For that reason, I disagree with her choice.

For that reason, I would not pretend to approve of or accept her lifestyle.

But I wouldn't hate her, mock her, belittle her, or do anything other than respect her choice and offer an alternative as provided by the gospel.

[Gabelma]

I am going to quote my favourite Latter Day Saint Speaker - My husband lol

'the moment we get baptised as Latter Day Saints, we all become hypocrites in our strive for perfection' and I agree with him it would be as wrong for me to judge the person with the prejudice (although have to confess people with prejudices like that I have trouble dealing with lol - they are my prejudice)

Some people are insecure around people who are gay - maybe it is a temptation of theirs or maybe she is a lady who would be uncomfortable round divorcees, good looking single men etc. In my experience many Latter Day Saints and other fundamental Christians tend to be the most sex obsessed people on the planet they a lot of them seem to think that only they are pure and everyone else is at it 24/7- only a Latter Day Saint or is it an American thing not sure could tell me that I shouldn't breastfeed in public because it might turn a man on. Whatever it is though those prejudices and feelings are that persons weakness. Personally I don't assume I turn everyone else on as not everyone else turns me on.

Someone being gay should not stop us showing love it is possible for a person to know you disapprove of their activity without backing off, the Saviour mixed happilly with people who were not at the same stage of perfection as he was/is, why should I lose out on a great freind because they are not temple worthy in some aspect of their lives?

Charley

[Adomini22]

PC, good question. I met a person who was miserable trying to hide their homosexuality from everyone, and when they "came out", they became the happiest I had ever seen. Was it a transitory happiness? Um, that would be a heck no. Do I condone it? No. Do I mock it? No, since I dont completely understand alot about it. So that is a good question. A person that is gay is gay. I dont see that person suddenly becoming straight as an alternative. I know what the bible says regarding such. And on that note, I dont know if HF will thrust them to hell for liking who they like. Some people are actually (gasp) good people, even if they are gay. They aint going to no Celestial Kingdom, given what holy writ says, but hell? I have difficulty seeing that. So.... I dont know. I just dont know on this one.

[prisonchaplain]

<div class='quotemain'>

Further, leaving the sin wouldn't, of itself, bring her any closer to God.

That's debatable. She may be happy in her lifestyle, but it's transitory happiness that cannot last. For that reason, I feel sorry for her. For that reason, I disagree with her choice. For that reason, I would not pretend to approve of or accept her lifestyle. But I wouldn't hate her, mock her, belittle her, or do anything other than respect her choice and offer an alternative as provided by the gospel.

We agree on this issue. My response to the revelation "I'm gay," was, "Why should someone 'have a problem' with you? You're not effecting THEIR morality."

My point was not to endorse an ungodly lifestyle, but rather to suggest that non-Christian sinning should not be personally threatening to a Christian's moral practice. I'm quite certain the officer was not looking for my opinion about the way she lives. If she did, it would indeed be a whole different conversation.

[Elphaba]

I am going to quote my favourite Latter Day Saint Speaker - My husband lol

'the moment we get baptised as Latter Day Saints, we all become hypocrites in our strive for perfection' and I agree with him it would be as wrong for me to judge the person with the prejudice (although have to confess people with prejudices like that I have trouble dealing with lol - they are my prejudice)

Some people are insecure around people who are gay - maybe it is a temptation of theirs or maybe she is a lady who would be uncomfortable round divorcees, good looking single men etc. In my experience many Latter Day Saints and other fundamental Christians tend to be the most sex obsessed people on the planet they a lot of them seem to think that only they are pure and everyone else is at it 24/7- only a Latter Day Saint or is it an American thing not sure could tell me that I shouldn't breastfeed in public because it might turn a man on. Whatever it is though those prejudices and feelings are that persons weakness. Personally I don't assume I turn everyone else on as not everyone else turns me on.

Someone being gay should not stop us showing love it is possible for a person to know you disapprove of their activity without backing off, the Saviour mixed happilly with people who were not at the same stage of perfection as he was/is, why should I lose out on a great freind because they are not temple worthy in some aspect of their lives?

Charley

Charley,

Wait until you get here!

I love your attitude. There is an obssession, not only amongst LDS, but in the whole country right now about sexual orientation, and to me it is such a non-issue. I have a number of gay friends, and it is extremely presumptuous to assume they are not happy. The only reason they may not be happy is the lack of acceptance, but they learn to overlook that, for the most part. They have to.

It's also interesting you brought up breast-feeding. I know of a woman right now who is appalled because her bishop has asked her not to breast-feed her baby in church. Why is something so natural, and so healthy for her baby, supposed to be hidden? Why should she have to leave the meeting?

Elphaba

[pam]

Most of the chapels I have been in have "mother's rooms." Where mothers can go and feed their babies. The meetings are usually piped into the room. Therefore the mother misses none of the meeting itself.

[Palerider]

This whole thing of loud fundamentalist sign-waving, bullhorn blaring, 'evangelists to the LDS' phenomena got me to thinking that sometimes Christians in general can be kinda thoughtless. This came to a head when I was discussing the sudden increase in interactions I have been having with LDS (both volunteers and inmates at the jail). The officer mentions that she knows an LDS couple. "The husband is okay with me, but the wife clearly has a problem with me."

I was (dumbfounded).

She read my look and said, "You know--that I'm gay and all?"

I did not know. And, here I was, the consevative, evangelical, pentecostal, facing one issue in which our churches agree. Yet, I know this officer as being professional, polite and nice.

Then the answer came to me--I believe prompted by the Spirit. "Why? You shouldn't effect HER morality."

"Exactly!" she answers.

You see, I do not know the officer's religion. She does not go to my church, and has never indicated that she was a Christian. So, why would I condemn her as a person for not practicing a particular ethic that I hold for purely religious reasons?

She's more likely to leave her lifestyle after conversion than beforehand. Further, leaving the sin wouldn't, of itself, bring her any closer to God.

THOUGHTS?

This is great Prison Chap....good stuff. I have found that while in a conversation with someone who chooses to have a Gay lifestyle that they become quite defensive about what they are doing when it comes out that you believe what they are doing is wrong. While speaking with someone like this, I have and do say, wait just a minute before you say anything else. I personally do not hold a grudge against them. I just believe that what they are doing is morally wrong as I presume you do as well. The same feeling with a couple that are not married but living together. I work with a few people who are gay and they are great people. I enjoy speaking with them etc. I sure hope what I just stated makes sence to everyone.

[Guest Yediyd]

It totally makes sense, Pale...I have friends who are gay and I love them dearly...one person in particular is a very close friend of mine and my best friend's mother is "married" to a woman...My friend calls her, her step-monster!!!

The point is...these friends of mine know what church I go to and they know how I feel, but they also know that I don't judge them...I am the first to tell them that I have sins in my life and I am in no position to throw any stones.

You can hate the sin, and still love the sinner...are we not ALL sinners?

[Elphaba]

This is great Prison Chap....good stuff. I have found that while in a conversation with someone who chooses to have a Gay lifestyle that they become quite defensive about what they are doing when it comes out that you believe what they are doing is wrong. While speaking with someone like this, I have and do say, wait just a minute before you say anything else. I personally do not hold a grudge against them. I just believe that what they are doing is morally wrong as I presume you do as well. The same feeling with a couple that are not married but living together. I work with a few people who are gay and they are great people. I enjoy speaking with them etc. I sure hope what I just stated makes sence to everyone.

Hey PR,

At what point in the conversation with a gay person do you tell him/her that you believe what they are doing is morally wrong?

I just can't imagine that coming up in a normal conversation.

Elphaba

[Guest Yediyd]

<div class='quotemain'> This is great Prison Chap....good stuff. I have found that while in a conversation with someone who chooses to have a Gay lifestyle that they become quite defensive about what they are doing when it comes out that you believe what they are doing is wrong. While speaking with someone like this, I have and do say, wait just a minute before you say anything else. I personally do not hold a grudge against them. I just believe that what they are doing is morally wrong as I presume you do as well. The same feeling with a couple that are not married but living together. I work with a few people who are gay and they are great people. I enjoy speaking with them etc. I sure hope what I just stated makes sense to everyone.

Hey PR,

At what point in the conversation with a gay person do you tell him/her that you believe what they are doing is morally wrong?

I just can't imagine that coming up in a normal conversation.

Elphaba

It did with me...I remember it clearly...My friend's mother and I were watching her(my friend) daughter...we were outside on the double swing, sitting together, watching the two year old splash in her little pool...as we sat there, she asked me what I thought about her lifestyle seeing that I was a Mormon...I didn't even bat an eye...I told her that I believed the Bible and the BoM to be the word of G-d and I believe that the word of G-d calls it a sin...I then proceeded to tell her that I too, was a sinner...I named some of my sins that she was aware of...I then said, who am I to judge you? You know that I love you and Anne with all my heart...she said, "Yes, I know that you do" She then hugged and kissed me...

My friend loves me and my church and has told me how much she wants to join, but she is afraid that if she does, she will have to forsake her mother and sister who are gay...I said to her...have I forsaken them? She said no, but that is different, you are not related to them...I told her That I saw no difference, as my family is not Mormon...they are all evangelical...the Mormons and the Evangelicals don't exactly see "eye to eye", but I have not forsaken my family...just what they believe..

...Unfortunately, my friend does not want to believe the Bible and refuses to believe that Homosexuality is a sin...I still pray for her...we have our discussions about it...but the decision is ultimately hers...

[Palerider]

thats an awesome story

[Elphaba]

It did with me...I remember it clearly...My friend's mother and I were watching her(my friend) daughter...we were outside on the double swing, sitting together, watching the two year old splash in her little pool...as we sat there, she asked me what I thought about her lifestyle seeing that I was a Mormon...I didn't even bat an eye...I told her that I believed the Bible and the BoM to be the word of G-d and I believe that the word of G-d calls it a sin...I then proceeded to tell her that I too, was a sinner...I named some of my sins that she was aware of...I then said, who am I to judge you? You know that I love you and Anne with all my heart...she said, "Yes, I know that you do" She then hugged and kissed me...

My friend loves me and my church and has told me how much she wants to join, but she is afraid that if she does, she will have to forsake her mother and sister who are gay...I said to her...have I forsaken them? She said no, but that is different, you are not related to them...I told her That I saw no difference, as my family is not Mormon...they are all evangelical...the Mormons and the Evangelicals don't exactly see "eye to eye", but I have not forsaken my family...just what they believe..

...Unfortunately, my friend does not want to believe the Bible and refuses to believe that Homosexuality is a sin...I still pray for her...we have our discussions about it...but the decision is ultimately hers...

I agree with PR. That is an awesome story. But then, knowing you, I'm not at all surprised.

Love you,

Elphaba

[Palerider]

<div class='quotemain'>It did with me...I remember it clearly...My friend's mother and I were watching her(my friend) daughter...we were outside on the double swing, sitting together, watching the two year old splash in her little pool...as we sat there, she asked me what I thought about her lifestyle seeing that I was a Mormon...I didn't even bat an eye...I told her that I believed the Bible and the BoM to be the word of G-d and I believe that the word of G-d calls it a sin...I then proceeded to tell her that I too, was a sinner...I named some of my sins that she was aware of...I then said, who am I to judge you? You know that I love you and Anne with all my heart...she said, "Yes, I know that you do" She then hugged and kissed me...

My friend loves me and my church and has told me how much she wants to join, but she is afraid that if she does, she will have to forsake her mother and sister who are gay...I said to her...have I forsaken them? She said no, but that is different, you are not related to them...I told her That I saw no difference, as my family is not Mormon...they are all evangelical...the Mormons and the Evangelicals don't exactly see "eye to eye", but I have not forsaken my family...just what they believe..

...Unfortunately, my friend does not want to believe the Bible and refuses to believe that Homosexuality is a sin...I still pray for her...we have our discussions about it...but the decision is ultimately hers...

I agree with PR. That is an awesome story. But then, knowing you, I'm not at all surprised.

Love you,

Elphaba

we have to stop this agreeing stuff.......LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Elphaba]

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>It did with me...I remember it clearly...My friend's mother and I were watching her(my friend) daughter...we were outside on the double swing, sitting together, watching the two year old splash in her little pool...as we sat there, she asked me what I thought about her lifestyle seeing that I was a Mormon...I didn't even bat an eye...I told her that I believed the Bible and the BoM to be the word of G-d and I believe that the word of G-d calls it a sin...I then proceeded to tell her that I too, was a sinner...I named some of my sins that she was aware of...I then said, who am I to judge you? You know that I love you and Anne with all my heart...she said, "Yes, I know that you do" She then hugged and kissed me...

My friend loves me and my church and has told me how much she wants to join, but she is afraid that if she does, she will have to forsake her mother and sister who are gay...I said to her...have I forsaken them? She said no, but that is different, you are not related to them...I told her That I saw no difference, as my family is not Mormon...they are all evangelical...the Mormons and the Evangelicals don't exactly see "eye to eye", but I have not forsaken my family...just what they believe..

...Unfortunately, my friend does not want to believe the Bible and refuses to believe that Homosexuality is a sin...I still pray for her...we have our discussions about it...but the decision is ultimately hers...

I agree with PR. That is an awesome story. But then, knowing you, I'm not at all surprised.

Love you,

Elphaba

we have to stop this agreeing stuff.......LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Guest Yediyd]

You two make me smile!!!

...I actually had that conversation twice with two different people...

...My son's Dr. is a gay Jewish lady...she asked me in her office one day what my thoughts on homosexuality were...I told her basically the same things that I told my best friend's mother that day on the swing .

...My son's Dr. came to his baptism!! On Saturday! Her Sabboth day!! I was shocked and thrilled!! When the Bishop's wife mentioned to her that it was REALLY nice of her to come to the baptism for Mikey (my son), she said," I didn't come for Mikey OR for Virginia (me)...I came because I have seen such a change and so much light and love in Virginia since she joined this church...I just had to come and check it out for myself!"

...My son's Dr. knew me BEFORE I converted to LDS.

[Elphaba]

You two make me smile!!!

...I actually had that conversation twice with two different people...

...My son's Dr. is a gay Jewish lady...she asked me in her office one day what my thoughts on homosexuality were...I told her basically the same things that I told my best friend's mother that day on the swing .

...My son's Dr. came to his baptism!! On Saturday! Her Sabboth day!! I was shocked and thrilled!! When the Bishop's wife mentioned to her that it was REALLY nice of her to come to the baptism for Mikey (my son), she said," I didn't come for Mikey OR for Virginia (me)...I came because I have seen such a change and so much light and love in Virginia since she joined this church...I just had to come and check it out for myself!"

...My son's Dr. knew me BEFORE I converted to LDS.

Wow. You must have been a real drag before!

Just kidding. I think that's a lovely story Yed.

Love,

Elphie

[Guest Yediyd]

Actually...I was to her!!

I saw her as a self-righteous, condescending, judgemental, professional....and I didn't like her! For the first two years that she knew me...I would not allow her to come to my house and I kept cancelling my appointments with her...We had a bad first impression of one another and I chose to hold something she said about me against her and decided not to like her....

My attitude started to change after I got baptised and by the time my son got baptised a year after I did...she(son's Dr.) was coming to my house two time a month, and we had developed a really nice working relationship.

I guess the Lord softened my heart...and it was obvious!

...I might add, that she was a "captive audience" and I witnessed to her about the church numerous times!!

She told me after my son aged out of her program that she learned a lot from me and has changed her idea of Mormons since getting to know my family. (to the positive, I might add)

...She wouldn't let me give her a BoM...but she did except a Jewish copy of the Tanakh that I bought for her!!

I hated her at first...now I can truthfully say that I love that woman!!! :)

[Gabelma]

Most of the chapels I have been in have "mother's rooms." Where mothers can go and feed their babies. The meetings are usually piped into the room. Therefore the mother misses none of the meeting itself.

yeah I know did love my husbands response though he suggested there should also be a room for those who feel turned on by watching a woman breastfeed lol -

Seriously I think the room has a place as there are times when my son gets too distracted when I am trying to get him to sleep but I also think it should be an optional thing. Technically now in Scotland it is as my Branch President could face a fine of £2000 if he asked me to remove myself from the meeting

Charley

[Elphaba]

Seriously I think the room has a place as there are times when my son gets too distracted when I am trying to get him to sleep but I also think it should be an optional thing. Technically now in Scotland it is as my Branch President could face a fine of £2000 if he asked me to remove myself from the meeting.

Charley, I don't know how important this is to you. But once you are in the states, more than likely you will be asked to leave the chapel.

It's not just a LDS thing. I assume only the most liberal of cities would allow you to nurse in public, if then. The U.S. is very burkha-ish when it comes to breast-feeding in public.

Elphaba

[Gabelma]

<div class='quotemain'>Seriously I think the room has a place as there are times when my son gets too distracted when I am trying to get him to sleep but I also think it should be an optional thing. Technically now in Scotland it is as my Branch President could face a fine of £2000 if he asked me to remove myself from the meeting.

Charley, I don't know how important this is to you. But once you are in the states, more than likely you will be asked to leave the chapel.

It's not just a LDS thing. I assume only the most liberal of cities would allow you to nurse in public, if then. The U.S. is very burkha-ish when it comes to breast-feeding in public.

Elphaba

I think it will become important but will have to deal with it - people here have been forced to accept it as now its a law that a woman can breastfeed when and where she likes, it was amazing in a few months it went from being normal seeing women breastfeeding to actually you don't notice its not as if anyone sees you anyway. How do people deal with it though in the early stages? I think I would have gone bad during the time when Gabey fed constantly if I had been stuck at home? Its no wonder in our societies that women get post natel depression so much when something as simple as breastfeeding is made to be a crime.... some States I do know have similar laws to Scotland not sure which ones though.

Charley

[Guest Yediyd]

I breastfed both my babies here in the good old USA! My daughter breastfed for two and a half years. I used a breast pump...a pin with a blanket over me and private rest rooms and such. Breastfeeding did not keep me home! My kids are a year apart...for 7 months, I was breastfeeding two babies at once. My son was switched to formula at 7 months because he got his first teeth and could not stop biting me...Daughter never bit me.

The point is...I adapted well to society being so boorish about the breastfeeding. I still fed them at the mall and beach and places like that...I just pinned a blanked on my shoulder and covered ourselves. When I couldn't do that or needed my husband's help with feeding them...I had expressed milk that he fed them.

It's not that big of a deal. Men are men...and breast turn them on...even breastfeeding...not something my brain can comprehend, but I know it is what it is and I just found ways to work around it. I think the breastfeeding lounge at church is REALLY nice!! I wish my church had had one when mine were little!! I just excused myself and went to the ladies room back then.

[Gabelma]

I do agree its better and more respectful to be discreet but have just discovered I have the legal right to breastfeed in public in Kansas so can continuue to do what I do here and just feed, but will use the Mothers Lounge for sacrament at church. Gabey will be nearly 2 hopefully won't need to feed so much anyway

I like the sound of what will be my new home

Charley

[Elphaba]

but have just discovered I have the legal right to breastfeed in public in Kansas. . . . I like the sound of what will be my new home.

Charley

Wow. I guess I'm wrong. That's fabulous!

But that's in public. So, I'd be surprised if private establishments allowed you to do it. But then, it sounds like I basically don't know what I'm talking about, and that's a good thing! :)

Elphie