Trusting The Lord Completely

[susieSA]

Daily Gems

Trusting the Lord Completely

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" 'By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac'

(Hebrews 11:17). Abraham, because of his great faith, was promised

posterity greater in number than the stars in the heavens, and that that

posterity would come through Isaac. But Abraham immediately complied with

the Lord's command. God would keep His promise, but if not in the

manner Abraham expected, he still trusted Him completely. Men accomplish

marvelous things by trusting in the Lord and keeping His

commandments--by exercising faith even when they don't know

how the Lord is shaping them."

Topic: trust, faith

(Dennis E. Simmons, "But If Not . . .," Ensign, May 2004, 74)

This one hit home for me...

[pam]

Again another "gem" to ponder. Faith is a hard thing. To keep believing in something unseen. To have faith that Heavenly Father is looking and watching out for their best interests even when it is not tangible to see.

[Doctor Steuss]

[…] Faith is a hard thing. […]

As my good friend "consiglieri" once said on another message board:

"I am 47-years old, and after having lived more than half my life, I am starting to get the sneaking suspicion that having faith in Christ may be the most difficult work of all."

It can especially be difficult for individuals such as me. I am one of those D&C 46:14 people. I'm just grateful I have people like my parents and siblings whom I trust and love, and can "believe on their words."

D&C 46:13-14

To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world.

To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful.

[Elphaba]

<div class='quotemain'>

[…] Faith is a hard thing. […]

As my good friend "consiglieri" once said on another message board:

"I am 47-years old, and after having lived more than half my life, I am starting to get the sneaking suspicion that having faith in Christ may be the most difficult work of all."

It can especially be difficult for individuals such as me. I am one of those D&C 46:14 people. I'm just grateful I have people like my parents and siblings whom I trust and love, and can "believe on their words."

D&C 46:13-14

To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world.

To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful.

Dr. Steuss!

You made it! That sould give you faith in something!

Elphaba (Jaynee to you).

[Doctor Steuss]

Dr. Steuss!

You made it! That sould give you faith in something!

Elphaba (Jaynee to you).

LOL! Yes, I was released from banishment and allowed to walk amongst the saints once again (I feel like Martin Harris)...

Indeed, that does give me faith. :)

[Snow]

Daily Gems

Trusting the Lord Completely

---------------------------------------------------

" 'By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac'

(Hebrews 11:17). Abraham, because of his great faith, was promised

posterity greater in number than the stars in the heavens, and that that

posterity would come through Isaac. But Abraham immediately complied with

the Lord's command. God would keep His promise, but if not in the

manner Abraham expected, he still trusted Him completely. Men accomplish

marvelous things by trusting in the Lord and keeping His

commandments--by exercising faith even when they don't know

how the Lord is shaping them."

Topic: trust, faith

(Dennis E. Simmons, "But If Not . . .," Ensign, May 2004, 74)

This one hit home for me...

The point being... if you hear a voice telling you to murder your son, go ahead and try to murder him and God will bless you for it.

[pam]

<div class='quotemain'>

Daily Gems

Trusting the Lord Completely

---------------------------------------------------

" 'By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac'

(Hebrews 11:17). Abraham, because of his great faith, was promised

posterity greater in number than the stars in the heavens, and that that

posterity would come through Isaac. But Abraham immediately complied with

the Lord's command. God would keep His promise, but if not in the

manner Abraham expected, he still trusted Him completely. Men accomplish

marvelous things by trusting in the Lord and keeping His

commandments--by exercising faith even when they don't know

how the Lord is shaping them."

Topic: trust, faith

(Dennis E. Simmons, "But If Not . . .," Ensign, May 2004, 74)

This one hit home for me...

The point being... if you hear a voice telling you to murder your son, go ahead and try to murder him and God will bless you for it.

Though make sure it's the "right voices" telling you to do so.

[susieSA]

<div class='quotemain'>

Daily Gems

Trusting the Lord Completely

---------------------------------------------------

" 'By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac'

(Hebrews 11:17). Abraham, because of his great faith, was promised

posterity greater in number than the stars in the heavens, and that that

posterity would come through Isaac. But Abraham immediately complied with

the Lord's command. God would keep His promise, but if not in the

manner Abraham expected, he still trusted Him completely. Men accomplish

marvelous things by trusting in the Lord and keeping His

commandments--by exercising faith even when they don't know

how the Lord is shaping them."

Topic: trust, faith

(Dennis E. Simmons, "But If Not . . .," Ensign, May 2004, 74)

This one hit home for me...

The point being... if you hear a voice telling you to murder your son, go ahead and try to murder him and God will bless you for it.

No, the point being that we need to trust the Lord even when we don't know how He is shaping things in our lives & that we are able to accomplish great things by doing this...

[Snow]

Though make sure it's the "right voices" telling you to do so.

Do you think God's voice instructs people to murder children as a test?

No, the point being that we need to trust the Lord even when we don't know how He is shaping things in our lives & that we are able to accomplish great things by doing this...

So if you heard "God's" voice telling you to stab your daughter to death, would you do it?

[CrimsonKairos]

When God commands killing, it isn't murder.

To answer your questions: Yes and yes. B)

[Gabelma]

One element that people often miss is Isaac's faith in all this - he wasn't a small child, he was a young man and his Father was an old man, he had to let his Father do it, which is why it is a shadow of things to come the Son submitted to the Father.

God has commanded people to kill and actually the priest that mentored Samuel suffered because he ignored the law and didn't kill his sons.

It would not be Murder as that is an unlawful killing - I don't think I have enough faith, I'd be like the priest, but one thing my life has taught me is that there are much worse things in life than physical death. And that life is the Lord's to command so I guess it would depend at the time on circumstances, like the man that helped his daughter with ME(Chronic Fatigue Syndrome) to die I completely understand.

Charley

[Snow]

It would not be Murder as that is an unlawful killing -

Murder is killing that is either illegal or immoral. You believe that it was legal to kill your children if you heard voices telling you to do so? Can you give me a legal source for that?

When God commands killing, it isn't murder.

To answer your questions: Yes and yes. B)

I can assure you that if you kill your son and you said that God's voice told you to, you are going to be charged with murder.

Why would an all good and all just God command someone to committ an evil and unjust act? If a god did so order, how could he be all good and all just?

[CrimsonKairos]

Very carefully. B)

[the Ogre]

An interesting thing in the scriptures (another little gem for ya): G-d told the Isrealites to enter Cannan and kill off every one there and all sorts of things that nowadays gets one branded a hoard of German genocidal maniacs. Of course they didn't do it right, but it turns out those who failed were the ones in the wrong.

What the L-rd says is okay and what society says is different; what's new? An angel of the L-rd comes up to me and says "Ogre, take your oldest son Andy over there up to the top of the Y and shoot him as a an example for all of Isreal" and you want to know if I would do it?

Man, what kind of question is that? Are you asking if Abraham had second thoughts or something? Are you trying to be clever and say something like you are screwed no matter what you do. One way you are in hock to the L-rd and the other I'm spending twenty years in Blanding waiting for a firing squad to be assembled. Not everyone does what Angels say. Look at Laman and Lemuel. Nice Jewish boys in town for the weekend and an angel tells them to stop being a pair of momzers and all they they can think to do is grumble like a bunch of passive-aggressive Utah-Mormons unhappy about cleaning the church on Saturday before church.

Who knows what I would do? I'm not Abraham and Andy is not Issac willing to be a sacrifice (he barely does the dishes when I ask him).

Work harder at irony when you ask these kind of questions will ya?

[Snow]

An interesting thing in the scriptures (another little gem for ya): G-d told the Isrealites to enter Cannan and kill off every one there and all sorts of things that nowadays gets one branded a hoard of German genocidal maniacs. Of course they didn't do it right, but it turns out those who failed were the ones in the wrong.

No exactly - not everyone was ordered to be killed. The women were to be raped: ""the women ... you shall take as booty for yourself; and you shall enjoy the spoil of your enemy"

What the L-rd says is okay and what society says is different; what's new? An angel of the L-rd comes up to me and says "Ogre, take your oldest son Andy over there up to the top of the Y and shoot him as a an example for all of Isreal" and you want to know if I would do it?

Your point being of course that society is wrong (in this case) when it believes you shouldn't murder your children.

Man, what kind of question is that? Are you asking if Abraham had second thoughts or something?

No - I'm saying a good and just God does not command the murder of innocent children.

[the Ogre]

No - I'm saying a good and just God does not command the murder of innocent children.

Ah, so then your issue is with the text and possibly translation. Didn't you make this point a coupla weeks ago?

[CrimsonKairos]

No - I'm saying a good and just God does not command the murder of innocent children.

Well there's one problem with that assertion, Snow.

God the Father commanded Jesus to sacrifice himself.

Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. (John 10:17-18)

In essence, God commanded Jesus to go to a time and place where murderers would do their dirty work.

How is that different?

[Snow]

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No - I'm saying a good and just God does not command the murder of innocent children.

Well there's one problem with that assertion, Snow.

God the Father commanded Jesus to sacrifice himself.

Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. (John 10:17-18)

In essence, God commanded Jesus to go to a time and place where murderers would do their dirty work.

How is that different?

I guess your analogy makes sense if you think that Abraham's son was God and was to atone for the sins of all mankind that we all might be saved.

I doubt that's what you are asserting however.

For that matter - Abraham's son was going to get murdered - he didn't have the option of not being murdered.

<div class='quotemain'>

No - I'm saying a good and just God does not command the murder of innocent children.

Ah, so then your issue is with the text and possibly translation. Didn't you make this point a coupla weeks ago?

I don't doubt that the translation is accurate.

I don't know if I commented on this before or not but I don't think that I've ever believed that God would command the murder of innocent children just to see if you would do it.

[the Ogre]

...but I don't think that I've ever believed that God would command the murder of innocent children just to see if you would do it.

The big question then is, how old was Issac and did he go voluntarily?

[CrimsonKairos]

For that matter - Abraham's son was going to get murdered - he didn't have the option of not being murdered.

We don't know that conclusively. Or I should say, I don't know that conclusively.

My analogy to Christ being commanded to let himself be murdered was that Christ was more innocent than any child...yet God commanded it to be so. Why should Isaac be so special?

[Snow]

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For that matter - Abraham's son was going to get murdered - he didn't have the option of not being murdered.

We don't know that conclusively. Or I should say, I don't know that conclusively.

Neither do we know conclusively that a goat named Gunther once rule the kingdom of Maldovia by defeating someone named Billiary Clinton in a runoff election, but let's stick with the text and stipulate that goats don't run in elections,

Is there any indication whatsoever that Abraham asked his son's permission to murder him?

[CrimsonKairos]

This is my opinion Snow, so take it for what its worth...or not worth.

I think that Isaac knew something fishy was up when his father said, "Here son, lie down on this stone altar, let me tie you up and oh, did I mention we won't be sacrificing lambs or goats today?"

If he struggled, the scriptures wouldn't have to record it--granted--but I think that Isaac trusted his father, and God, and submitted voluntarily to the experience. I think he trusted Abraham's promise that, "God will provide Himself a lamb." Talk about dual meanings!!!

From then on, Isaac might have been a little uneasy whenever Abraham asked him to go offer sacrifices with him, though.

Anyway, that's my view but I certainly don't expect you to share it. There's plenty to go around though, if you do wanna share. B)

[Gabelma]

<div class='quotemain'>

For that matter - Abraham's son was going to get murdered - he didn't have the option of not being murdered.

We don't know that conclusively. Or I should say, I don't know that conclusively.

My analogy to Christ being commanded to let himself be murdered was that Christ was more innocent than any child...yet God commanded it to be so. Why should Isaac be so special?

The next event after the sacrfice was the death of Sarah at 127 (making Isaac 37), a sensible guess would be that Isaac would be in his 30s when the event took place (just a guess based on the story is that he was about 33). He would have to have been compliant - I struggle to dress my 9 month old, don't think I could bind him easily. Abraham was probably about 130 and had just travelled up a mountain

-Charley

[Snow]

The next event after the sacrfice was the death of Sarah at 127 (making Isaac 37), a sensible guess would be that Isaac would be in his 30s when the event took place (just a guess based on the story is that he was about 33). He would have to have been compliant - I struggle to dress my 9 month old, don't think I could bind him easily. Abraham was probably about 130 and had just travelled up a mountain

-Charley

Maybe - if you believe that 130 year old people traveled up and down mountains.

[Gabelma]

<div class='quotemain'>

The next event after the sacrfice was the death of Sarah at 127 (making Isaac 37), a sensible guess would be that Isaac would be in his 30s when the event took place (just a guess based on the story is that he was about 33). He would have to have been compliant - I struggle to dress my 9 month old, don't think I could bind him easily. Abraham was probably about 130 and had just travelled up a mountain

-Charley

Maybe - if you believe that 130 year old people traveled up and down mountains.

In he story he saddled up a donkey as it won't let me say ###### , bet I could use the English word though which is much ruder anyway given as I know 80 year olds that go rock climbing I see know reason why someone who had lived to 130 and was in good shape couldn't sit on the back of a donkey and travel up the mountain

Charley