Youtube Apologetics

[cdowis]

On 3/31/2017 at 4:50 PM, person0 said:

CRITIC

Only the grace of God can save us, your works won't save you!

RESPONSE

I agree!

CRITIC

You have now discovered that the antiMormons have deceived you on what we actually  believe.  

The Bible tells us that we will be judged on our works, but the works themselves do not save us.  This should help you understand  the relationship between the Justice of God (judgment for works) and His mercy (Grace, the Atonement).  They are are inseparable.

 

Edited April 2, 2017 by cdowis

[person0]

3 minutes ago, cdowis said:

You have now discovered that the antiMormons have deceived you on what we actually  believe.  

The Bible tells us that we will be judged on our works, but the works themselves do not save us.

You feel I have been deceived?  You must have read too much into my post and extrapolated your interpretation far out.  I am already aware of the video you have posted and have shared it many times with friends and family.  I am aware of the relationship that grace and works each play in our salvation and exaltation.  I agree with everything in your post, there is nothing in my post that is contradictory.

[cdowis]

del

Edited April 2, 2017 by cdowis

[cdowis]

LDS church and race

RESPONSE (update)

 

Here is what we actually believe http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/racial-remarks-in-washington-post-article

Growth of the church in Africa https://youtu.be/DHGJM93LRKU

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865638671/Major-LDS-growth-in-Africa-unaffected-by-priesthood-restriction-Elder-Sitati-says.html

http://www.ldsliving.com/Church-Announces-Temple-Groundbreakings-in-Africa-and-South-America/s/80772?utm_source=ldsliving&utm_medium=email

A contribution to Black History and Ancestry

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/historic-freedmen-records-released

Here is Elder Dube, a General Authority from Africa speaking in the world-wide General Conference  https://youtu.be/Ndt159Pa3J4

Humanitarian efforts http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/one-hundred-thousand-africans-find-joy-in-continent-wide--mormon-helping-hands--project

https://youtu.be/UiHe9MfMmQ8

Edited April 28, 2017 by cdowis

[cdowis]

CRITIC

Racism in the Book of Mormon

RESPONSE

Let me quote it for you

[23] And it came to pass that I beheld, after they had **dwindled in unbelief** they became a dark, and loathsome, and a filthy people, **full of idleness and all manner of abominations**

Now lets look at other passages about the Lamanites:
[6] And then shall they rejoice; for they shall know that it is a blessing unto them from the hand of God; and their scales of darkness shall begin to fall from their eyes; and many generations shall not pass away among them, save **they shall be a pure and delightsome people**

To the Nephites Jacob declared
[8] O my brethren, I fear that unless ye shall repent of your sins that **their skins will be whiter than yours, when ye shall be brought with them before the throne of God** [23] For behold, thus saith the Lord: I will not show unto the wicked of my strength, to one more than the other, save it be unto those that repent of their sins, and hearken unto my words. Now therefore, I would that **ye should behold, my brethren, that it shall be better for the Lamanites than for you except ye shall repent**.

 

Each us bears a curse -- the curse of Adam which is death, the curse of wealth, the curse of poverty, etc. The Lord tells us

[3] And there was a strict command throughout all the churches that there should be *no persecutions among them, that there should be an equality among all men*; [4] That they should let no pride nor haughtiness disturb their peace; *that every man should esteem his neighbor as himself* laboring with their own hands for their support.

Edited April 30, 2017 by cdowis

[cdowis]

CRITIC (copied from a post on youtube)

And history tells that JS had a talisman in his pocket when he died.

RESPONSE

No, it does not. No one knew a thing about any talisman until 58 years after Emma's death. Then her illegitimate bastard step son Charles Bidamon, came forward with this talisman, saying that it was a precious possession of Joseph Smith, and he had it on him at all times, including when he was killed.

But  there were two lists of items on the person of Joseph Smith when he died; one by the coroner and one by Joseph Smith's lawyer, and neither list had any talisman listed on it. Third, Charles Bidamon claimed that Emma mentioned the talisman many times in interviews, but no such interview has ever been published or found, where she mentions such a talisman.

Edited December 4, 2017 by cdowis

[JohnsonJones]

34 minutes ago, cdowis said:

CRITIC (copied from a post on youtube)

And history tells that JS had a talisman in his pocket when he died.

RESPONSE

No, it does not. No one knew a thing about any talisman until 58 years after Emma's death. Then her illegitimate bastard step son Charles Bidamon, came forward with this talisman, saying that it was a precious possession of Joseph Smith, and Emma entrusted it to him, saying he had it on him at all times, including when he was killed.

However If it was such a precious keepsake, why did Emma give it to Charles? Why didn't she give it to Joseph Smith III, Joseph Smith Jr.s first born son? That would have been the logical thing to do.

Second, there were two lists of items on the person of Joseph Smith when he died; one by the coroner and one by Joseph Smith's lawyer, and neither list had any talisman listed on it. Third, Charles Bidamon claimed that Emma mentioned the talisman many times in interviews, but no such interview has ever been published or found, where she mentions such a talisman.

This is something I have seen many of those opposing the LDS church doing (not you, I'm talking the people you are calling Critic).  They take sources which historically may not be that reliable, and use it as their primary source.  Their oft loved stone in a hat story of the translation is VERY similar in their sourcing, as well as various other stories they try to use to paint Joseph in a bad light.  They use many sources that were anti-Mormon then and trying to destroy Joseph as their primary sources today.

Sometimes what it boils down to is to tell some member who's read the stuff on line who they believe, Joseph and the apostles that stayed with him and the Mormons after, or those who had dedicated their lives to his and all Mormon's destruction.

[cdowis]

CRITIC

Mormons are polytheistic  == many gods

RESPONSE

Let's see what Isa 43:10 actually says
..."before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me."
What does He mean by a "formed god"?  It is an idol -- there were no god "formed"  before me, no gods "formed"  after me.  He is condemning their worship of idols.

Let’s see what the Bible tells us

John 17 [22] And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, EVEN AS we are one: [23] I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made **perfect in one** ...

Rev 3 [21] To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, EVEN AS I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Rom 8 [17] And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also **glorified together**

This is not polytheism, but we become joint-heirs with Christ.

Edited February 19, 2019 by cdowis

[Sunday21]

On 2016-10-22 at 6:22 PM, cdowis said:

CRITIC

"The Mormon God was once sinful man"

RESPONSE

This is not a doctrine of our church. We believe what Christ tells us, John 5 [19]  Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but *what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise*.

The Son is following the path of the Father, and both are sinless rom eternity.

Really? I did not know this! So Heavenly Father was not a flawed person like me? 

[cdowis]

JS used this scripture to tell us the nature of the Father, that He fulfilled the same role as Christ.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, cdowis said:

JS used this scripture to tell us the nature of the Father, that He fulfilled the same role as Christ.

cdowis, Sunday was being facetious.

[zil]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

cdowis, Sunday was being facetious.

I'm not so sure.  In light of the other thread, I'm thinking @Sunday21 may have been surprised by the idea that the Father, rather than having been a "normal" mortal like the rest of us, was a perfect mortal, like Christ.  I doubt Sunday would be the only one surprised by that idea, even within the Church.

[Sunday21]

@zil @Carborendum @cdowis

Sigh. I thought Heavenly Father was once like me as in flawed. So Heavenly Father was like Christ in that He was perfect throughout His lifespan on ...some planet? Sigh. This is depressing!

[zil]

9 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

@zil @Carborendum @cdowis

Sigh. I thought Heavenly Father was once like me as in flawed. So Heavenly Father was like Christ in that He was perfect throughout His lifespan on ...some planet? Sigh. This is depressing!

Why is it depressing?  An omniscient being is an omniscient being regardless of how he got there.  If an omniscient and merciful (and truthful) being tells you something, his path through eternity should not alter whether you believe him.

God has said that (a) He is your Father, (b) He loves you, (c) there is a way for you to become like Him.  If He is trustworthy, then His success should not be depressing to us.  Rather, we should be happy for Him, and for ourselves that He has chosen to help us, and wants us to experience success with Him.

[Sunday21]

@zil If I am going to learn stats, I prefer someone who started where I am starting! Not someone who was born at homeplate! Does He really understand? How much easier would life be if I was a genius? A lot easier! Being dumb and dumber is a hard slog. Someone who never sinned does not know what it is like to do something wrong. His experience is very different from mine.

[zil]

10 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

His experience is very different from mine.

Except I suspect He feels what you feel every time tears well up in your eyes, every time your heart clenches a bit in pain, every time you want to pull your hair out or bang your head on the desk, etc., etc., etc.  I suspect He knows exactly what it is like, a thousand times over.  That His mechanism for gaining understanding was infinitely more difficult than our mechanism does not invalidate the mechanism.  That we cannot understand His mechanism nor compare it to our own does not invalidate His understanding.

Edited May 31, 2017 by zil

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

@zil If I am going to learn stats, I prefer someone who started where I am starting! Not someone who was born at homeplate! Does He really understand? How much easier would life be if I was a genius? A lot easier! Being dumb and dumber is a hard slog. Someone who never sinned does not know what it is like to do something wrong. His experience is very different from mine.

So, you were being serious?

[Sunday21]

4 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

So, you were being serious?

Yes.

[Guest MormonGator]

25 minutes ago, zil said:

Except I suspect He feels what you feel every time tears well up in your eyes, every time your heart clenches a bit in pain, every time you want to pull your hair out or bang your head on the desk, etc., etc., etc.  I suspect He knows exactly what it is like, a thousand times over. 

This was beautifully said @zil. A+

[Guest]

35 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

Yes.

I'm sorry about that.  I wasn't criticizing you.  I just didn't know.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Sunday21 said:

Does He really understand?

I'm an imperfect mortal father.  And I can tell you that I feel every tear that my daughter sheds.  I feel all the anger she feels.  I feel all the joy she feels.  I don't feel this because I have experienced any of what she has.  I feel it because I'm her father.  She's a part of me.  What happens to her, happens to me.

My sons as well.  Even if they do something I've never done, I feel everything they feel.  Do I fully understand?  Only as they explain it to me.  As they bring me their problems and allow me to help them (succor them) then I understand and can help them.

Now, multiply that by infinity and take it down to the depths of forever and we'll just begin to understand how the Savior can understand what we feel.

[cdowis]

CRITIC

Two sticks prophecy in Ezekiel  

RESPONSE

All Christians that I have met agree that many Old Testament revelations have double meanings, that is, they speak of an issue in their day but those revelations also symbolize/prophecy of some event to happen in the future.  For example, many revelations that speak of the kingship and election of David (ex. many is Psalms) are generally accepted by Christians as ALSO being prophecies of the Messiah to come etc.  Also, accounts of the fall of Babylon are often accepted as being prophecies of the future downfall of Satan and the wicked etc.  I have always understood that this was the case with this Ezek. passage, and, as seen above, such an understanding aligns with the pattern of God's pattern of prophecy as seen in the Bible. 

[cdowis]

CRITIC

No BOM artifacts

RESPONSE

There are hundreds of BOM artifacts. Let me explain. Let us suppose you were excavating an authentic Nephite city, and you find a jade necklace. Please tell us how we would identify it as "Nephite" instead of Mayan, or something else. How would you identify a Nephite city??

The BOM tells us that they did not use Hebrew as the vernacular, but a language unknown to any other nation. What physical evidence uniquely identifies that Jade necklace, or even the city itself? All of the written records were destroyed by the Spanish. The artifacts are there but it is an issue of identification. Please help us solve that problem..

 

There are hundreds of BOM artifacts. Let me explain.
Let us suppose you were excavating an authentic Nephite city, and you find a jade necklace. Please tell us how we would identify it as "Nephite" instead of Mayan, or something else. How would you identify a Nephite city??

The BOM tells us that they did not use Hebrew as the vernacular, but a language unknown to any other nation. What physical evidence uniquely identifies that Jade necklace, or even the city itself? All of the written records were destroyed by the Spanish. The artifacts are there but it is an issue of identification. Please help us solve that problem..

Anyway, here is a "hole" of 15 million people undiscovered until now.  There may other such holes as well

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2018/02/03/mayan-civilization-was-much-vaster-than-known-thousands-of-newly-discovered-structures-reveal/?utm_term=.f48a8d54d137

Edited March 6, 2018 by cdowis

[cdowis]

CRITIC

JS and the magic seer stone

RESPONSE 

Moses built his ministry using a magic staff == changed to a serpent, changed the Nile to blood red, parted the Red Sea, etc The staff was also use by Pharaoh's magicians to do magic, including changing to a serpent.

Check out the Bible, pleeze, before trash talking the church and Joseph Smith.

[JohnsonJones]

On ‎5‎/‎31‎/‎2017 at 8:57 AM, cdowis said:

JS used this scripture to tell us the nature of the Father, that He fulfilled the same role as Christ.

Probably to late, but for clarification, while the one statement on sinless is correct from our viewpoint, this statement above is an opinion, depending on how one interprets it.

If this is referring to the Father's mortal life, we do NOT know much about that at all, except for what JS told us, which might be interpreted as you stated, or may also be interpreted that the Father was actually JUST like every one of us (and that would be of this world, not even necessarily LDS as we also can be Saviors in the Temple, will die and be resurrected, and many of us also receive exaltation just as our Father and the Son).  It is open to interpretation and opinion.

The quoted item and ensuing discussion on it is a good opinion, but it is just that, an opinion.  It is in no wise doctrine as far as I know.  It has no backing in scripture, or even really teachings from any prophet in that regards, but there have been some teachers of religion who have had opinions in regards to some of the teachings and write or also teach that opinion in the same that mirror yours.