Youtube Apologetics

[askandanswer]

On 2016-10-23 at 9:22 AM, cdowis said:

The Son is following the path of the Father, and both are sinless rom eternity.

Could you provide a source for this please? It sounds McConkieish.

The King Follett discourse states that "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!" Obviously this statement is capable of more than one interpretation. One of those interpretations is that if God was once as I am now, since I am a sinner, then god was a sinner at some point. Given the enormous difference between a man who is imperfect and a man who is perfect, there is no way we could accurately say that a man who is perfect is like one who is not.

Perhaps this statement could only be completely true if we add more flexibility to the current understanding of the term "eternity" in a manner similar to that suggested by Doctrine and Covenants 19:11. Perhaps it is only in this eternity, the one we are experiencing here and now, that it can be said that the Son and the Father are currently sinless. Another way in which it might start to make sense is if we accept the view that sin is no more and no less than the violation of God's will. When we take this view, it becomes easier to understand how it could be said that God is sinless, because people, animals and Gods are unlikely to violate their own will except through involuntary actions. 

[cdowis]

CRITIC

Need evidence and intellect to find truth

RESPONSE

“Each of us,” said President Boyd K. Packer, “must accommodate the mixture of reason and revelation in our lives. The gospel not only permits but requires it.” In 2007, the church published a statement about LDS doctrine which read in part: “The church exhorts all people to approach the gospel not only intellectually but with the intellect and the spirit, a process in which reason and faith work together.”

Edited June 22, 2017 by cdowis

[cdowis]

CRITIC

CES Letter

RESPONSE

Take a look at == Bamboozled by the CES Letter

https://www.fairmormon.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Bamboozled-by-the-CES-Letter-Final1.pdf

[cdowis]

CRITIC

I don't want to be in a place full of Mormons all eternity.

 

RESPONSE

OK, but you will be stuck with the antiMormons and ex-Mormons for eternity.

[cdowis]

CRITIC

Temple stuff not mentioned in the Bible.  Nothing secret.

RESPONSE

Let's see what Christ said

"Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you"

"He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given."

These are things which are not revealed to the world, Babylon, youtube. . Sacred, holy things.

. "To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:"
After the resurrection, Christ is teaching the disciples for FORTY DAYS things of the kingdom. What did He teach them?? Did He merely repeat the Sermon on the Mount 10,000 times? The Bible does not say.  It is silent.

No public record ==>>> obviously too sacred, holy for the ears of Babylon. I think He was teaching them, among othe things,  the temple ordinances, baptism or the dead, etc.

Edited March 30, 2018 by cdowis

[cdowis]

CRITIC

Mormons almost never talk about Christ in their meetings.

RESPONSE

I have the greatest compassion for those who are ignorant of the church and the doctrines of the kingdom.

Christ said, "If ye love me, keep my commandments."  When we are talking about the doctrines of Christ -- faith in Christ, repentance, baptism, the gift of the Holy Ghost, and keeping the commandments, we are talking about Christ.

When we are talking about our priesthood duties, we represent Christ here on earth, we are speaking of Christ.

When we speak of service to our fellow man, of our responsibilities to our families, of preaching Christ to those outside the church (missionary work), we are speaking of Christ.  When we talk about Joseph Smith who was called by Christ to restore the church, we speak of Christ.

Edited July 16, 2017 by cdowis

[cdowis]

Michael Quinn is not shy in mingling his personal opinions and interpretations with historical facts.  He quotes rumors and whisperings with  equal authority with documented history.

You might find of interest these detailed reviews regarding the question: How good is his research. Decide for yourself whether we can trust him as an unbiased historian.  

As for myself, I placed him in a similar category as the Tanners == they do well when they stay in the realm of factual, documented history, but, footnotes and all, don't buy everything they say.

http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1442&index=16 

http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1452&index=15

http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1445&index=6

[cdowis]

FAITH VS WORKS

Your mouth cannot save you. Jesus taught =====>>

Luke 6 [46] And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Matt 7 [21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that DOETH the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Edited July 24, 2017 by cdowis

[cdowis]

"The problem with polygamy is it is straight up immoral."

You are correct unless it is allowed by the Lord. See 2 Sam 12:7-8.
Solomon and Christ Himself were descended from a polygamous marriage.

[cdowis]

CRITIC: "Why did Jews build the second temple on the location of the first temple and no other temples" , etc

RESPONSE

There were two other temple outside Jerusalem, at Elephatine and at Leontopolis, so there were three temples. Each one where there large Jewish populations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_of_Onias

We also build temples where they are needed.

Ordinances for the deceased could not be performed until the resurrection of Christ, such as baptism for the dead. (1 Cor 15:29)

Regarding the priesthood in the Restored Church of Jesus Christ Heb 7 [12] For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Christ taught the apostles the temple ordinances in the forty days after the resurrection, but these were too sacred to be recorded and revealed to the world. Acts 1: 2-3

Edited August 13, 2017 by cdowis

[cdowis]

CRITIC

Blind faith

RESPONSE

Read the following from the Book of Mormon which deals in an interesting way with the issues of faith vs commonsense and life experiences.

An experiment ==>>>>

Alma 32 [27] But behold, if ye will awake and *arouse your faculties even to an experiment upon my words* and exercise a *particle of faith* yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.

[28] Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves -- It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.

[29] Now behold, would not this increase your faith? I say unto you, Yea; nevertheless it hath not grown up to a perfect knowledge.

[30] But behold, as the seed swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, then you must needs say that the seed is good; for behold it swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow. And now behold, will not this strengthen your faith? Yea, it will strengthen your faith: for ye will say I know that this is a good seed; for behold it sprouteth and beginneth to grow.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++====

You now have knowledge == based on faith and intelligence and experience.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

[31] And now, behold, are ye sure that this is a good seed? I say unto you, Yea; for every seed bringeth forth unto its own likeness.

[32] Therefore, if a seed groweth it is good, but if it groweth not, behold it is not good, therefore it is cast away.

[cdowis]

CRITIC

Do you know about the "believer's baptism"?

RESPONSE

Of course I do. It is part of the fake Gospel foisted on Christians by the Pharasees.

John the Baptist
Matt 16 [16] And Jesus, when he was baptized, *went up straightway out of the water* and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

Christ told us very clearly
John 3 [5] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Are you going to follow the Pharasees and their fake gospel, or Jesus Christ.

Edited December 24, 2017 by cdowis

[cdowis]

CRITIC

Baptism in the Old Testament

RESPONSE

 

Bible

1 Corinthians 10 [1] Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; [2] And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; [3] And did all eat the same spiritual meat; [4] And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Book of Mormon

Mosiah 18 [13] And when he had said these words, the Spirit of the Lord was upon him, and he said: Helam, I baptize thee, having authority from the Almighty God, as a testimony that ye have entered into a covenant to serve him until you are dead as to the mortal body; and may the Spirit of the Lord be poured out upon you; and may he grant unto you eternal life, through the redemption of Christ, whom he has prepared from the foundation of the world. [150 BCE]

2 Nephi 9 [23] And he commandeth all men that they must repent, and be baptized in his name, having perfect faith in the Holy One of Israel, or they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God. [24] And if they will not repent and believe in his name, and be baptized in his name, and endure to the end, they must be damned; for the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel, has spoken it. [560 BCE]

Note: The Pharasees never questioned what John the Baptist was doing, and even refused to answer Christ when asked if John had the authority to perform that ordinance. They clearly were familiar with this ordinance.

[cdowis]

CRITIC

Temple rites are masonic

RESPONSE

The LDS temple has no Masonic teachings whatsoever. Do Masons do baptisms for the dead in their temple? No! Are masons into doing genealogical research for family members? No! Do masons base their ceremony around Christs sacrifice? No..Do Masons perform eternal marriages in their temple? No!

The only possible similarity are the symbols and signs. But, now we find that these came from the temple of Solomon.

Edited December 24, 2017 by cdowis

[cdowis]

CRITIC

Church whitewashing and hiding history

RESPONSE

Elder Russell Ballard gave a talk to CES employees. We call this a watershed talk because in this talk he admits that the well-meaning curriculum of the past did not meet the needs of what our youth today need. There needs to be more transparency about our past, so the Brethren are making efforts to change what maybe past leaders thought was important.

They have made documents available on the Joseph Smith Papers project, the Mountain Meadows Massacre project was very transparent about what happened in an unfortunate incident. Then they brought forth the Gospel Topics Essays, where they talk about these hot button topics. They are making strides even incorporating these Gospel Topics Essays into our curriculum. So yes, perhaps they should have done more, earlier, but they’re doing the best they can right now to bring that information out.

http://www.ldsperspectives.com/2017/05/24/polygamy-questions-joseph-smith/

(copied post from youtube forum)

Edited September 15, 2017 by cdowis

[cdowis]

CRITIC

No evidence for BOM

RESPONSE

In the Arabian peninsula and midEast ==>>NHM, Valley of Lemuel, the land Bountiful, the use of metal (gold) plates for records

Ancient midEastern names ==>> sheum, Pahoran, Paanchi, Ammon(Amun),

mesoamerica ==>> towers used for religious rites, sophisticated calendar, written codices, the city of Lamanai in Belize, cement cities, elephants (mastodons), language of an Indian tribe with linguistic links to Egyptian,  haplogroup X (DNA) with possible link to Druze (midEast)

Edited September 15, 2017 by cdowis

[cdowis]

CRITIC

Grace only ==  (revised)

 

"what more can I offer" vs "Grace CANNOT SUFFICE without TOTAL effort on the part of the recipient."

 

RESPONSE

Let's see what Jesus said about your question

Matt 25 [23] His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: **enter thou into the joy of thy lord** [24] Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed: [25] And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine. [26] His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: [27] Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. [28] Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents. [29] For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. [30] **And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth**

"Not the work itself doing the saving. "
Of course works do not save us.   But faith without works is dead and dead faith cannot save us.

Edited June 12, 2018 by cdowis

[cdowis]

CRITIC

Salvation by works

RESPONSE

"The Law" refers to the Law of Moses, and "The Law" does not save us.
Mormons do not follow the Law of Moses. We do not believe that we "earn" our way to salvation with works ==>>

The Savior’s Atonement makes it possible for us to overcome spiritual death. Although all people will be resurrected, only those who accept the Atonement will be saved from spiritual death (see Articles of Faith 1:3). We accept Christ’s Atonement by placing our faith in Him. Through this faith, we repent of our sins, are baptized, receive the Holy Ghost, and obey His commandments. We become faithful disciples of Jesus Christ. We are forgiven and cleansed from sin and prepared to return and live forever with our Heavenly Father.

The Savior tells us, “For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer … even as I” (D&C 19:16–17).

Christ did His part to atone for our sins. To make His Atonement fully effective in our lives, we must strive to obey Him and repent of our sins. https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-12-the-atonement?lang=eng

Edited September 18, 2017 by cdowis

[cdowis]

CRITIC

"What about the thief on the cross next to Jesus? Was he baptized? No. "  (REVISED)

RESPONSE

Please give us the scripture from the Bible that he was NOT baptized. You are adding words to the Bible.  He instantly recognized the Christ and  was obviously a disciple of John.
Mark 16 [16] He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
**I am quoting the Bible, you are quoting yourself**

Edited August 29, 2018 by cdowis

[JohnsonJones]

On ‎9‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 10:19 PM, cdowis said:

CRITIC

"What about the thief on the cross next to Jesus? Was he baptized? No. "  (REVISED)

RESPONSE

Please give us the scripture from the Bible that he was not baptized. You are adding to the Bible, my friend.

He instantly recognized the Christ and  was obviously a disciple of John.
Christ's promise made it clear that he WAS baptized.

I would disagree strongly.  Most evidence point that he was NOT baptized, and in fact, this is perhaps one support for the LDS church (though also used as one for the Baptist as well).

Catholic theology argue that he must have been baptized, else there is NO way the Lord could have stated he would be with him in paradise.

Other theologist point out that typically those who were considered followers of the Lord were identified in verse and scripture as such when they spoke (even if that context is only found in Latin or Greek and wasn't made the transfer into English), whereas the Thief on the Cross is NOT identified as being such.

Nevertheless, it does not identify the thief definitively either way...and it is not important.  What that story shows is twofold.  First, that the thief was the only one loudly vocal enough to defend the Lord in that crowd.  Secondly, the it is the LORD who chooses who goes to heaven...NOT man.  In this, the Lord is the judge.

As a final note, the LDS church has noted that the Lords statement can also strongly indicate that the man was not baptized as his statement has a different meaning for the LDS than for other Christian denominations.  Instead of promising the individual exaltation, or even salvation, he told the man that he would be with him in paradise.

In the LDS religion, one does not have to be baptized to go to Spirit Paradise, but many who are good people on this earth, but lack the ordinances and blessing, will go there and thus have the ability to receive such in that kingdom as well.  Hence, it was simply a promise for the thief to go, and possibly either receive these, repent, or otherwise.

[cdowis]

CRITIC

Satanic symbols

RESPONSE 

They are not Satanic symbols. They are Christian symbols == >>they represent the sun the moon and the stars of the three kingdoms of glory.

1 Cor 15 [40] There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. [41] There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

[cdowis]

CRITIC

JS was a pedophile

RESPONSE

Many states TODAY don't have a minimum age and as recently as 2001 , a 10 year was  married. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_marriage_in_the_United_States

[cdowis]

"God is spirit"

The Bible says that He is a door, a loaf of bread, the truth, a fountain of water, a vine, a narrow path.

After His resurrection, Christ made a point that he had a body of flesh and bones, not a spirit. Luke 24 [39] Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a **spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have** And Christ said "he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?"

If Christ and the Father are ONE, the Bible tells us that they have a body of flesh and bones, that God truly created man in the Image of God. Stephen saw Christ standing on the right hand of God.

You can deny it, but the Bible teaches it, and we believe it.

Edited September 21, 2017 by cdowis

[cdowis]

"A conclusion is the place where you get tired of thinking" 
                       --  Arthur Bloch 

CRITIC

atheist argument #1 "I don't understand, therefore it is false"
I do not understand why the Smiths went to revivals while at the same time JS was being persecuted by the very same people. "Yeah, right!"

RESPONSE

This logical fallacy is called ==>> **Argument from Personal Incredulity** Asserting that opponent’s argument must be false because you personally don’t understand it or can’t follow its technicalities. For instance, one person might assert, “I don’t understand that engineer’s argument about how airplanes can fly. Therefore, I cannot believe that airplanes are able to fly.” Au contraire, that speaker’s own mental limitations do not limit the physical world—so airplanes may very well be able to fly in spite of a person's inability to understand how they work. **One person’s comprehension is not relevant to the truth of a matter**

https://web.cn.edu/kwheeler/fallacies_list.html

CRITIC

atheist argument #2 "If I were god, I would do things differently == world peace, no disease, no natural disasters, etc."  
"The god of the Bible did very bad things, and I am morally superior to that kind of god."

RESONSE

This is a variation on, **Argument from Personal Incredulity**.  See above.

CRITIC

atheist argument #3 "There are so many gods, religions to choose from.  That per se is an indication that god is a man made construct."

RESPONSE

See below, argument from ignorance

CRITIC

atheist argument #4 "Nobody knew of the first vision until many years later. Therefore it was a fictional story created in hindsight"

RESPONSE

This is an "unproven assertion" which leads to **Argument from Ignorance**
Appealing to a lack of information to prove a point, or arguing that, since the opposition cannot disprove a claim, the opposite stance must be true. An example of such an argument is the assertion that ghosts must exist because no one has been able to prove that they do not exist. Logicians know this is a logical fallacy because no competing argument has yet revealed itself.

 

 

Edited September 22, 2017 by cdowis

[cdowis]

CRITIC

Did not use the plates during translation.

RESPONSE

When the plates were taken from Smith because of the lost 116 pages, Smith was UNABLE to translate. It was necessary for him to have the physical possession of the plates in order to translate.

Let's take a modern example. We see this with today's computers which communicate with the remote servers. Without BOTH the computer (seer stone) and the remote servers (the plates), we cannot perform our work such as writing a post in this forum. We do not see the servers, but they are necessary nevertheless. The data files are on the server, but we must have the computer, smart phone, tablet to see the data.