Consider Solomon...

[Guest Yediyd]

And Solomon loved the L by night: and God said, Ask what I shall give thee. </span></a>6 And Solomon said, Thou hast shewed unto thy servant David my father great mercy, according as he walked before thee in truth, and in righteousness, and in uprightness of heart with thee; and thou hast kept for him this great kindness, that thou hast given him a son to sit on his throne, as it is this day. numbered nor counted for multitude. 9 Give therefore thy servant an understanding <a href="http://"http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_kgs/1_kgs/3/9b"" target="_blank">heart to judge thy people, that I may <a href=\"http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_kgs/1_kgs/3/9c\" target=\"_blank\">discern</a> between good and bad: for who is able to judge this thy so great a people? </a>10 And the speech pleased the Lord, that Solomon had asked this thing. wise and an understanding heart; so that there was none like thee before thee, neither after thee shall any arise like unto thee.

Solomon was a prophet of G-d...nobody disputes that...G-d even gives Solomon the desires of his heart, yet Solomon was not a perfect man...he sacrificed in high places...basically...his many wives drew his heart away from the ONE TRUE G-d....even with this imperfection that G-d was full aware of...G-d used and blessed Solomon....

My question...<span style="color:#ff0000">Why can people except that he was a prophet of G-d, yet want to question Joseph Smith and cite his imperfections as proof that JS could not have been a prophet?

[Doctor Steuss]

[...]

My question...Why can people except that he was a prophet of G-d, yet want to question Joseph Smith and cite his imperfections as proof that JS could not have been a prophet?

I don't know why, but this scripture popped in my head when I read the above:

Ether 12:26-28

26 And when I had said this, the Lord spake unto me, saying: Fools mock, but they shall mourn; and my grace is sufficient for the meek, that they shall take no advantage of your weakness;

27 And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.

28 Behold, I will show unto the Gentiles their weakness, and I will show unto them that faith, hope and charity bringeth unto me—the fountain of all righteousness.

[Guest Yediyd]

<div class='quotemain'>

[...]

My question...Why can people except that he was a prophet of G-d, yet want to question Joseph Smith and cite his imperfections as proof that JS could not have been a prophet?

I don't know why, but this scripture popped in my head when I read the above:

Ether 12:26-28

26 And when I had said this, the Lord spake unto me, saying: Fools mock, but they shall mourn; and my grace is sufficient for the meek, that they shall take no advantage of your weakness;

27 And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.

28 Behold, I will show unto the Gentiles their weakness, and I will show unto them that faith, hope and charity bringeth unto me—the fountain of all righteousness. Exactly!!! Thank you for that!!!!

[Guest Yediyd]

1 Kings 9:4... And if thou wilt walk before me, as David thy father walked, in integrity of heart, and in uprightness, to do according to all that I have commanded thee, and wilt keep my statutes and my judgments:

David was a murderer and an adulterer....but this is the assesment that G-d gave of David to his son, Solomon...

...Joseph Smith was not a perfect man...but he WAS a prophet of G-d.

[Gabelma]

1 Kings 9:4... And if thou wilt walk before me, as David thy father walked, in integrity of heart, and in uprightness, to do according to all that I have commanded thee, and wilt keep my statutes and my judgments:

David was a murderer and an adulterer....but this is the assesment that G-d gave of David to his son, Solomon...

...Joseph Smith was not a perfect man...but he WAS a prophet of G-d.

Compared to many of the Old Testament stories the worst stories about Joseph Smith make him sound like an angel - I mean Abraham left a wife and son out in the desert to die

Charley

[Doctor Steuss]

Compared to many of the Old Testament stories the worst stories about Joseph Smith make him sound like an angel - I mean Abraham left a wife and son out in the desert to die

Charley

Elisha had 42 children killed by she-bears because they made fun of his baldness.

[Gabelma]

<div class='quotemain'>

Compared to many of the Old Testament stories the worst stories about Joseph Smith make him sound like an angel - I mean Abraham left a wife and son out in the desert to die

Charley

Elisha had 42 children killed by she-bears because they made fun of his baldness.

LOL I can't really top that one except maybe Elijah's big BBQ or Jonah being completely out of his tree and wandering round with a gourd

[CrimsonKairos]

I think when the Lord spoke of Solomon and David's uprightness and integrity, He was speaking about their conduct before their personal "fall from grace" or apostasy.

The scriptures that stir my heart the most are those dealing with Christ's atonement (the NT gospel accounts). Second only to the atonement accounts, two Old Testament chapters break my heart the most.

1 Kings 10-11. It is so sad to see someone who had soared so high (Solomon) sink so low.

I almost feel like crying when I read those chapters...the scale of the tragedy and lost potential just numbs me.

[prisonchaplain]

Why can people except that he was a prophet of G-d, yet want to question Joseph Smith and cite his imperfections as proof that JS could not have been a prophet?

Solomon was not a prophet. He was a king.

Joseph Smith gets questioned because he challenges the major doctrines of Christianity, because he declared all other groups wrong, and because he claimed to be a prophet, thus subjecting himself to great scrutiny (especially from those he labeled apostate).

Most biblical prophets called upon God's people to turn from their wicked ways. The truth was easily recognized, and those who opposed them, did so for reasons of power and unrepentence.

Joseph Smith did not so much challenge church morality, as church structure, doctrine, and the whole understanding of what God's purpose for us was. If he was right, he was a matyr in a long line of prophet-martyrs. Otherwise . . .

[Guest Yediyd]

<div class='quotemain'>

Why can people except that he was a prophet of G-d, yet want to question Joseph Smith and cite his imperfections as proof that JS could not have been a prophet?

Solomon was not a prophet. He was a king.

Joseph Smith gets questioned because he challenges the major doctrines of Christianity, because he declared all other groups wrong, and because he claimed to be a prophet, thus subjecting himself to great scrutiny (especially from those he labeled apostate).

Most biblical prophets called upon God's people to turn from their wicked ways. The truth was easily recognized, and those who opposed them, did so for reasons of power and unrepentence.

Joseph Smith did not so much challenge church morality, as church structure, doctrine, and the whole understanding of what God's purpose for us was. If he was right, he was a matyr in a long line of prophet-martyrs. Otherwise . . . OK...forget Solomon...what about Elisha? He had all those kids killed because they mocked him...and besides...the point is: Joseph Smith was a man who was not perfect, he was still used of G-d. He challenged the religions of the day because G-d told him to just as Elijah the Prophet challenged the priest of Bail on mount Carmel...After Elijah won that great victory...he went and sat under a Juniper tree and felt sorry for himself...My point is...show me a perfect prophet in the Bible (besides Jesus)...JS was not perfect, you WILL find faults if you look for them, but he was a prophet of G-d.

[prisonchaplain]

OK...forget Solomon...what about Elisha? He had all those kids killed because they mocked him...

I ran into a few interesting theories about this story. First, God obeyed the prophet's petition, so there is justice that is wrought. It is likely that these youth were with poisoned hearts. Inevitably, they are the mouth-pieces and evil spawn of their wicked parents. Finally, understanding that Elisha was a minister of God, and that his curse was done with great intention (not a spontaneous act of vengeance), in the name of God, Elisha very likely invoked a punishment that God had intended for these children and the people they represented.

and besides...the point is: Joseph Smith was a man who was not perfect, he was still used of G-d. He challenged the religions of the day because G-d told him to just as Elijah the Prophet challenged the priest of Bail on mount Carmel

You do understand that you are aligning modern non-LDS Christianity with Baal worshipers? And, indeed, that is the implication. Joseph Smith's contention was that modern Christianity was no longer engaging in the true worship of God.

...After Elijah won that great victory...he went and sat under a Juniper tree and felt sorry for himself...My point is...show me a perfect prophet in the Bible (besides Jesus)...JS was not perfect, you WILL find faults if you look for them, but he was a prophet of G-d.

You touch on something here. Joseph Smith actually does what Jesus does. He does not call the Church to repent of sins, and get back to a vigorous practice of the faith. Instead, like Jesus, he says that the church leaders, preachers, teachers, etc. have corrupted the doctrines and practices of the faith, and that a whole new interpretation is needed.

So, Joseph Smith is held to the standard of Jesus, because he does as Jesus does, and declares the whole institution of Christianity to have been corrupt.

[Guest Yediyd]

JS may be held to the standard of Jesus, but only a fool would expect a man to live up to that standard...Yes, I am calling all non-LDS wrong, as you should do for any that are not of your faith, because what is the point of a man's religion if he does not believe it to be the true one?

I expect you to believe that I am wrong and you are right, as I believe the opposite...

...And of course...I believe JS to be a Prophet of G-d.

[prisonchaplain]

JS may be held to the standard of Jesus, but only a fool would expect a man to live up to that standard

I'm not agreeing with the expectation of perfection. However, for the unconvinced, when someone says, "Come out from them, be separated, and join my path," a great level of scrutiny is attracted.

...Yes, I am calling all non-LDS wrong, as you should do for any that are not of your faith, because what is the point of a man's religion if he does not believe it to be the true one?

There's a significant difference. Within Christianity, I (A/G) can worship in most other churches (Presbyterian, Baptist, Methodist, etc.) and do so in peace, and with the expectation of communing with God. I could even attend a mass, and expect that God will be there. The priest might consider me a "separated brother," but a brother, nonetheless. Even after the Pope's latest proclammation, most Catholics understand that most Protestants will end up in the same heaven.

So, while I might believe that my fellowship has best apprehended God's Word, and his plans for these last days, I have little trouble fellowshiping with fellow believers outside my little neck of the Christian woods. Consider the Promise Keepers rally of '97--nearly a million men, Catholic, Pentecostal, Baptist, Methodist, Korean, African-American, Native American, and Messianic Jewish--all worshiping together in one accord.

I expect you to believe that I am wrong and you are right, as I believe the opposite...

...And of course...I believe JS to be a Prophet of G-d.

Stephen Robinson (LDS professor from BYU) and Craig Blomberg (evangelical professor, Denver Seminary) co-wrote a very conciliatory, respectful, yet honest book entitled: How Wide the Divide: A Mormon and an Evangelical in Conversation. These two are friends, and the found some common ground. Yet, they did conclude that we (LDS and evangelicals) will not be sharing one another's pulpits, nor joining in the sacrament of holy communion any time soon. Furthermore, we will both continue to evangelize/missionize each other. There call was not for doctrinal reconciliation, but for intelligent, respectful dialogue. To that I say a hearty amen. Furthermore, I highly recommend the volume--which sells at both Deseret and Christianbook.com. B)

[Guest Yediyd]

The difference between you and I, PC is that I believe that you will be in some degree of Heaven...

...you believe that I am going to Hell.

I have accepted what Jesus did for me, He IS my savior, I even got "saved" in the Baptist church...I AM a Christian, I do not worship some "other" Christ...I am a follower of Jesus Christ of Nazareth...I read and believe the KJV, too.

I also accept the BoM to be the word of G-d and JS to be a Prophet.

Jonah was a Prophet...he ran from his duty. Noah was a Prophet, he was a drunkard....I'm sure the people that they preached to held them to a higher standard, too. Men are man...G-d called the children of Abraham his chosen people...look at the example THEY set!!!!

JS, was imperfect....your expecting him to have been perfect just because he was a prophet is ridiculous!!!!

[prisonchaplain]

...you believe that I am going to Hell.

SNOW asked me this once: If and LDS individual has repented of his/her sins, prayed in faith, asking Jesus to forgive them, and believes s/he will be "saved" because of Christ's sacrifice on Calvary, then why would an evangelical--who believes in salvation by faith alone (not faith plus learning the right set of doctrines) think that individual would go to hell?

My answer was/is that I could not say for certain one way or the other what would happen to such an individual. How wrong can one be about God and still be under his protection and salvation? Cain gave a wrong sacrifice, and got reprimanded. He refused to change and ended murdering his brother. Even then, God put his seal of protection on him, and we read later that his descedents became skilled craftspeople.

So, no, I'm not certain you would go to hell, should you die within your LDS beliefs. On the other hand, since there is a significant difference in our basic understanding about who God is, and what the plan of salvation is, I do not want to provide false assurances either. I don't know how wrong we can be about God, and still be in relationship with him. None of us has it to perfection, but where is the line at which God says, "You're not worshiping me, but another god."

In the end, I leave the judgment to God. I refuse to give unauthorized comfort or condemnation. Instead, we continue to learn from each other, and hopefully, to gain a fuller understanding of each other.

I have accepted what Jesus did for me, He IS my savior, I even got "saved" in the Baptist church...I AM a Christian, I do not worship some "other" Christ...I am a follower of Jesus Christ of Nazareth...I read and believe the KJV, too.

I can respect most of this. The KJV part requires a measure of forgiveness on my part (lol). (I prefer and believe the more modern translations to be a bit more accurate.

I also accept the BoM to be the word of G-d and JS to be a Prophet.

You're either right or wrong.

Jonah was a Prophet...he ran from his duty. Noah was a Prophet, he was a drunkard....I'm sure the people that they preached to held them to a higher standard, too. Men are man...G-d called the children of Abraham his chosen people...look at the example THEY set!!!!

JS, was imperfect....your expecting him to have been perfect just because he was a prophet is ridiculous!!!!

Those who have no inner witness to the man's prophetic mantle will look to the fruit of his life. Expecting perfection would be ridiculous. However, his life is all we have to go on.

[Maureen]

The difference between you and I, PC is that I believe that you will be in some degree of Heaven...

...you believe that I am going to Hell.

I have accepted what Jesus did for me, He IS my savior, I even got "saved" in the Baptist church...I AM a Christian, I do not worship some "other" Christ...I am a follower of Jesus Christ of Nazareth...I read and believe the KJV, too.

I also accept the BoM to be the word of G-d and JS to be a Prophet.

Jonah was a Prophet...he ran from his duty. Noah was a Prophet, he was a drunkard....I'm sure the people that they preached to held them to a higher standard, too. Men are man...G-d called the children of Abraham his chosen people...look at the example THEY set!!!!

JS, was imperfect....your expecting him to have been perfect just because he was a prophet is ridiculous!!!!

Wow, how presumptous of you Yediyd, to be able to see into PC's heart in such a condemning way; when he's given no indication whatsoever that he would judge you so unfairly. What gives; why so harsh?

M.

[Guest Yediyd]

<div class='quotemain'>

The difference between you and I, PC is that I believe that you will be in some degree of Heaven...

...you believe that I am going to Hell.

I have accepted what Jesus did for me, He IS my savior, I even got "saved" in the Baptist church...I AM a Christian, I do not worship some "other" Christ...I am a follower of Jesus Christ of Nazareth...I read and believe the KJV, too.

I also accept the BoM to be the word of G-d and JS to be a Prophet.

Jonah was a Prophet...he ran from his duty. Noah was a Prophet, he was a drunkard....I'm sure the people that they preached to held them to a higher standard, too. Men are man...G-d called the children of Abraham his chosen people...look at the example THEY set!!!!

JS, was imperfect....your expecting him to have been perfect just because he was a prophet is ridiculous!!!!

Wow, how presumptous of you Yediyd, to be able to see into PC's heart in such a condemning way; when he's given no indication whatsoever that he would judge you so unfairly. What gives; why so harsh?

M. You are right, I should not have assumed that about him, I guess it was because I grew up in either Evangelical of Baptist surroundings, and I know how they see us Mormons...I spent 40 years on THAT side of the fence.

<div class='quotemain'> <div class='quotemain'>

The difference between you and I, PC is that I believe that you will be in some degree of Heaven...

...you believe that I am going to Hell.

I have accepted what Jesus did for me, He IS my savior, I even got "saved" in the Baptist church...I AM a Christian, I do not worship some "other" Christ...I am a follower of Jesus Christ of Nazareth...I read and believe the KJV, too.

I also accept the BoM to be the word of G-d and JS to be a Prophet.

Jonah was a Prophet...he ran from his duty. Noah was a Prophet, he was a drunkard....I'm sure the people that they preached to held them to a higher standard, too. Men are man...G-d called the children of Abraham his chosen people...look at the example THEY set!!!!

JS, was imperfect....your expecting him to have been perfect just because he was a prophet is ridiculous!!!!

Wow, how presumptous of you Yediyd, to be able to see into PC's heart in such a condemning way; when he's given no indication whatsoever that he would judge you so unfairly. What gives; why so harsh?

M. You are right, I should not have assumed that about him, I guess it was because I grew up in either Evangelical of Baptist surroundings, and I know how they see us Mormons...I spent 40 years on THAT side of the fence. I will also note that I have a whole family of people who are convinced that I am going to Hell.

[pam]

<div class='quotemain'> <div class='quotemain'>

[...]

My question...Why can people except that he was a prophet of G-d, yet want to question Joseph Smith and cite his imperfections as proof that JS could not have been a prophet?

I don't know why, but this scripture popped in my head when I read the above:

Ether 12:26-28

26 And when I had said this, the Lord spake unto me, saying: Fools mock, but they shall mourn; and my grace is sufficient for the meek, that they shall take no advantage of your weakness;

27 And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.

28 Behold, I will show unto the Gentiles their weakness, and I will show unto them that faith, hope and charity bringeth unto me—the fountain of all righteousness. Exactly!!! Thank you for that!!!!

Then I must be EXTREMELY humble as I have so many weaknesses.

[prisonchaplain]

So everyone knows, I was not off-put by Yed's assumption. It is an easy one to make. Many people are a lot more certain of things uncertain than I am. :-)

I do have one piece of information though: It seems that there will be coffee in the TERRESTIAL kingdom. (j/k)

[Elphaba]

I do have one piece of information though: It seems that there will be coffee in the TERRESTIAL kingdom. (j/k)

Uh oh. Don't tell Yed. She'll be up in the Celestial Kingdom, come down to visit all of us peons in the Terrestial Kgdm, see us drinking coffee, and never make it back up again!

You know I love you Yed!

Elphie

[CrimsonKairos]

Yed, just wait until the Celestial Kingdom. You'll have elements at your disposal that would make our periodic table blush...and then just think of the heavenly blend you can create with divine approval!

[Doctor Steuss]

Yed, just wait until the Celestial Kingdom. You'll have elements at your disposal that would make our periodic table blush...and then just think of the heavenly blend you can create with divine approval!

[prisonchaplain]

Yed, just wait until the Celestial Kingdom. You'll have elements at your disposal that would make our periodic table blush...and then just think of the heavenly blend you can create with divine approval!

CK, don't tease poor Yed. We know what you're referring. It's already available. Hey, if you're good with POSTUM, guzzle away!

[CrimsonKairos]

And hey, I wasn't teasing. I think there's gonna' be pleasures at God's right hand (Ps. 16:11) that make this world's joys blush! The key is to get there first!

[Elphaba]

And hey, I wasn't teasing. I think there's gonna' be pleasures at God's right hand (Ps. 16:11) that make this world's joys blush! The key is to get there first!