The Golden Rule

[Adomini22]

Hmmm...... time will tell darlin. Time will tell whether you believe in Jesus or not. And thats a fact.

[Gabelma]

<div class='quotemain'>and that's all Elph.

"The road is narrow." "The sky is blue." "The grass is green."

I'm not trying to be difficult. It's just that "The road is narrow" could mean anything you want it to mean; therefore, it's essentially meaningless.

What does that have to do with being evil because I can't believe in Jesus?

Elphaba

some reason the scripture about the pagan lady wanting the crumbs off the table always comes to mind, she knew Jesus with no teaching yet those that had been taught for years didn't - I don't think you need to believe in Jesus to recognise him. Anyway this song came to mind by George HArrison called Any Road

Oh I've been traveling on a boat and a plane

In a car on a bike with a bus and a train

Traveling there and traveling here

Everywhere in every gear

But oh Lord we pay the price with a

Spin of a wheel - with a roll of a dice

Ah yeah you pay your fare

And if you don't know where you're going

Any road will take you there

And I've been traveling through the dirt and the grime

From the past to the future through the space and the time

Traveling deep beneath the waves - in

watery grottoes and mountainous caves

But oh Lord we've got to fight

With the thoughts in the head with the dark and the light

No use to stop and stare

And if you don't know where you're going

Any road will take you there

You may not known where you came from

May not know who you are

May not have even wondered how

you got this far

I've been traveling on a wing and a prayer

By the skin of my teeth by the breath of a hair

Traveling where the four winds blow

With the sun on my face - in the ice

and the snow

But oooeeee it's a game

Sometimes you're cool, sometimes

you're lame

Ah yeah it's somewhere

And if you don't know where you're going

Any road will take you there

But oh Lord we pay the price

With the spin of the wheel with the roll of

the dice

Ah yeah, you pay your fare

And if you don't know where you're going

Any road will take you there

I keep traveling around the bend

There was no beginning, there is no end

It wasn't born and never dies

There are no edges, there is no size

Oh yeah, you just don't win

It's so far out - the way out is in

Bow to God and call him Sir

But if you don't know where you're going

Any road will take you there

But if you don't know where you're going

Any road will take you there

[CrimsonKairos]

The Golden Rule is the bare minimum heard-hearted Old Testament Israel could understand.

The Celestial Rule (also a commandment) is to love your neighbor as Christ loves them (hint: he was even willing to die for them).

If someone doesn't believe in Christ, they certainly can't know how he loved others, and hence they are unable to keep the commandment.

The Gold Rule is fine and dandy, its just rather limiting and unsatisfactory to me. After all, not everyone wants me to do to them what I'd want others to do to me...not everyone finds pleasant what I do, nor does everyone find painful what I do.

You can't go wrong emulating Christ's love and forgetting yourself completely.

[Guest Yediyd]

<div class='quotemain'>Well, let's be honest. Eventually you will acknowledge Jesus. If you ultimately reject Him and what He did for you, you'll be spending eternity in Hell. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the light, and every knee will bend before Him or be cast out. You may not like hearing that, but it's the truth.

I thought Mormons did not believe in hell. Am I wrong?

So, you're telling me that if I live my life by the Golden Rule, but cannot make myself believe in Jesus, if it turns out Jesus is real He will send me to hell for that? Even knowing that I tried, but could not make myself?

You cannot make yourself belive something that you do not believe.

Elphaba

<div class='quotemain'>

So, then, what about me? I don't believe in Jesus. I believe I can live by the Golden Rule, and in fact, it is my "religion," so to speak. Do you disagree?

It's so good to "see" you! I really missed you.

Elphaba

The next time you feel like you miss me just call...I may not be on line, but 9 times out of 10...I'm probably home!!!

I believe that Jesus is the only way to Heaven, El...you know that. He died for our sins and he is the atonement...if we don't except him...we are not of him, and if we are not of him, we are against him. I don't expect you to agree with me...but those are my beliefs and I'm stickin' to em!!!

Yed.

Wow. So you think I am against Jesus? How is not believing in Jesus against Jesus?

You know I would never want you to change your beliefs--you KNOW that. I'm just trying to understand this better. I guess I've never quite understand that I am somehow evil because I don't believe.

Elphie As a Mormon, I believe that Hell is the place where the man you are meets the man you "could" have been. I never said you were evil, I said if you are not for Jesus, you are against him...HE SAID that!!! I just believe him to be G-d and his words to be true...I believe you will inherit some degree of glory...I do not believe in the Hell that my father preached...but I do believe in a personal Hell of regret.

[Gabelma]

The Golden Rule is the bare minimum heard-hearted Old Testament Israel could understand.

The Celestial Rule (also a commandment) is to love your neighbor as Christ loves them (hint: he was even willing to die for them).

If someone doesn't believe in Christ, they certainly can't know how he loved others, and hence they are unable to keep the commandment.

The Gold Rule is fine and dandy, its just rather limiting and unsatisfactory to me. After all, not everyone wants me to do to them what I'd want others to do to me...not everyone finds pleasant what I do, nor does everyone find painful what I do.

You can't go wrong emulating Christ's love and forgetting yourself completely.

some of the most Christlike people I have met who move around with him in their countenance have not be Christian yet for me I can see My God in them

Chaley

[Guest Yediyd]

Here Here, Gabelma!! I am thinking of Jewish friend of mine...she is not a Christian...but she is full of Christlike love!!!

[CrimsonKairos]

And just imagine how much fuller their love could be if they received a witness of Christ's divinity and the reality of his crucifixion and resurrection. Once you believe that a God came and died for you and everyone you see...it changes things. If it does not, there's something wrong with your heart.

[rosie321]

And just imagine how much fuller their love could be if they received a witness of Christ's divinity and the reality of his crucifixion and resurrection. Once you believe that a God came and died for you and everyone you see...it changes things. If it does not, there's something wrong with your heart.

Amen Brother:)

[john doe]

<div class='quotemain'>Well, let's be honest. Eventually you will acknowledge Jesus. If you ultimately reject Him and what He did for you, you'll be spending eternity in Hell. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the light, and every knee will bend before Him or be cast out. You may not like hearing that, but it's the truth.

I thought Mormons did not believe in hell. Am I wrong?

So, you're telling me that if I live my life by the Golden Rule, but cannot make myself believe in Jesus, if it turns out Jesus is real He will send me to hell for that? Even knowing that I tried, but could not make myself?

You cannot make yourself belive something that you do not believe.

Elphaba

Jesus spoke of hell, why would we not believe in it? We're Christians. And yes, eventually, the time will come when you will know the truth of Jesus and His deeds. If you reject Him, you will be cast out of His presence. It's not a hard concept. Why would you even want to be in heaven in the presence of the Son of God, whom you don't accept? You should be happy with the prospect of going to hell. It's where you'll be most comfortable.

[Elphaba]

Jesus spoke of hell, why would we not believe in it?

I'm not saying you don't. I just don't remember learning about a hell when I was a member, other than for "Sons of Perdition." Is that what you assume I am? Or are you speaking of some other sort of hell? I really don't know.

We're Christians.

I agree, and I argue this often with evangelicals on other boards.

And yes, eventually, the time will come when you will know the truth of Jesus and His deeds. If you reject Him, you will be cast out of His presence.

Well, that's very silly, isn't it? If the time comes around that I know of Jesus, and he is what the Church claims he is, then why would I reject him?

You wouldn't know otherwise, but it isn't as if I haven't searched for Jesus. This isn't something I just one day woke up and decided Jesus did or didn't exist. My search was a long one, and ultimately, I saw no evidence of any god, Christian or otherwise.

For me, Jesus is as unreal as Zeus is to you. Can you MAKE yourself believe in Zeus?

I'm not being flippant. I'm just trying to demonstrate that this is not just a matter of choice. You can't make yourself believe in something you simply do not believe in.

Why would you even want to be in heaven in the presence of the Son of God, whom you don't accept?

Again, this is a silly question. If, as you say, I come to that time when I know Jesus is everything the Church as said he is, why would I reject him? Of course I would then want to be in his presence.

You should be happy with the prospect of going to hell. It's where you'll be most comfortable.

Is there some sort of doctrinal basis to this or are you just being mean?

Elphaba

[john doe]

<div class='quotemain'>Jesus spoke of hell, why would we not believe in it?

I'm not saying you don't. I just don't remember learning about a hell when I was a member, other than for "Sons of Perdition." Is that what you assume I am? Or are you speaking of some other sort of hell? I really don't know.

We're Christians.

I agree, and I argue this often with evangelicals on other boards.

And yes, eventually, the time will come when you will know the truth of Jesus and His deeds. If you reject Him, you will be cast out of His presence.

Well, that's very silly, isn't it? If the time comes around that I know of Jesus, and he is what the Church claims he is, then why would I reject him?

You wouldn't know otherwise, but it isn't as if I haven't searched for Jesus. This isn't something I just one day woke up and decided Jesus did or didn't exist. My search was a long one, and ultimately, I saw no evidence of any god, Christian or otherwise.

For me, Jesus is as unreal as Zeus is to you. Can you MAKE yourself believe in Zeus?

I'm not being flippant. I'm just trying to demonstrate that this is not just a matter of choice. You can't make yourself believe in something you simply do not believe in.

Why would you even want to be in heaven in the presence of the Son of God, whom you don't accept?

Again, this is a silly question. If, as you say, I come to that time when I know Jesus is everything the Church as said he is, why would I reject him? Of course I would then want to be in his presence.

You should be happy with the prospect of going to hell. It's where you'll be most comfortable.

Is there some sort of doctrinal basis to this or are you just being mean?

Elphaba

You know, I used to think of you as the self-appointed nag of the board, but now I pity you. You've lived as long as you have and have never seen any evidence of God? Sad, sad, sad. I don't know how a person can go through life as long as you have and not see any evidence of God's existence. Personally, the more I learn about science and the cosmos, the more evidence I see of His hand in everything. I'm not going to point to any one thing, because just one thing doesn't prove anything, but the whole taken together shows me, personally, that we would not exist on this earth if there was not a God to build and maintain the entire system. This earth did not happen by accident, or by chance.

The thing about eventually acknowledging Jesus, in my mind is this: if you had your fair chance to obtain knowledge of Him and, because of your pride or arrogance, or whatever, decided He didn't exist, it will be much harder for you to show your acceptance if you eventually do accept Him in the afterlife. As for being more comfortable in hell, it's a personal belief of mine that in the final analysis we will all tend to gravitate toward wanting to be around people like ourselves. If you still don't accept Jesus, you would be much more comfortable around others who don't accept Him either. I don't know that it's doctrinal with LDS or not, but it's a pet belief of mine.

I'm not going to debate with you over these issues, I don't care to. You'll notice that when I get bored of our back-and-forth I'll just stop posting sometimes. It's not because I'm accepting defeat. It's been obvious from our conversations that you don't want to even attempt to see things from my perspective. You always get so upset when you think you are being attacked, yet you think it is entirely acceptable to attack those who don't see things the way you do. It's not worth my valuable (and short) time here to debate with someone who won't even acknowledge that the person they are talking to may have a valid point.

[Alaskagain]

. . .

I'm not being flippant. I'm just trying to demonstrate that this is not just a matter of choice. You can't make yourself believe in something you simply do not believe in.

Does anyone believe in anything without first WANTING to believe in it?

Al

[CrimsonKairos]

It's not worth my valuable (and short) time here to debate with someone who won't even acknowledge that the person they are talking to may have a valid point.

[Dr T]

Good question to me Elph. There are many "good acts" by other religious practitioners. My belief is that acting good is not able to earn our way into God's presence. It is only because of Jesus' life, death and resurrection. One day, every knee will bow and tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. I am not God and cannot, with certainty claim a knowledge of how and what God will accept as an acceptance of Jesus or not. I do believe however that the Jesus laid out in scripture is the only Jesus to accept. If he is rejected, I see NO way of being saved. In that, it is narrow. Do with that what you want. It just came to mind and something I wanted to say before I missed the opportunity.

[Elphaba]

<div class='quotemain'>

. . .

I'm not being flippant. I'm just trying to demonstrate that this is not just a matter of choice. You can't make yourself believe in something you simply do not believe in.

Does anyone believe in anything without first WANTING to believe in it?

Not necessarily.

But as far as my wanting to believe in Jesus, yes I did. Ultimately, I had to finally admit I did not believe in him, nor any other god as defined by any organized religious texts. And again, this was not simple process for me

Elphaba.

Good question to me Elph. There are many "good acts" by other religious practitioners. My belief is that acting good is not able to earn our way into God's presence. It is only because of Jesus' life, death and resurrection. One day, every knee will bow and tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. I am not God and cannot, with certainty claim a knowledge of how and what God will accept as an acceptance of Jesus or not. I do believe however that the Jesus laid out in scripture is the only Jesus to accept. If he is rejected, I see NO way of being saved. In that, it is narrow. Do with that what you want. It just came to mind and something I wanted to say before I missed the opportunity.

Thank you Dr.T. So do you, like John Doe, see me deserving of hell as well?

And also, while we're being so honest with Elphaba here, do you also see me as the nag of the group? I'd appreciate an honest answer, and I know you'd give me one.

Elphaba

[Dr T]

Hello Elph,

Thank you Dr.T. So do you, like John Doe, see me deserving of hell as well?

And also, while we're being so honest with Elphaba here, do you also see me as the nag of the group? I'd appreciate an honest answer, and I know you'd give me one.

To answer the first part of your question, I have to say that I believe all of God's creation, myself included, are deserving of hell, so my answer is yes. As I believe God is perfect and requires sinlessness, this can only be done by being presented as clean, which only comes from a true belief in Jesus not "doing the best I could."

In my interactions with you, Elphaba, I have not experienced you as a nag. I probably would have let you know.

[Elphaba]

Hello Elph,

Thank you Dr.T. So do you, like John Doe, see me deserving of hell as well?

And also, while we're being so honest with Elphaba here, do you also see me as the nag of the group? I'd appreciate an honest answer, and I know you'd give me one.

To answer the first part of your question, I have to say that I believe all of God's creation, myself included, are deserving of hell, so my answer is yes. As I believe God is perfect and requires sinlessness, this can only be done by being presented as clean, which only comes from a true belief in Jesus not "doing the best I could."

In my interactions with you, Elphaba, I have not experienced you as a nag. I probably would have let you know.

Thank you Dr. T.

Elphie

[Dr T]

You are welcome. Thanks for that response. :)

[Elphaba]

Hello Elph,

Thank you Dr.T. So do you, like John Doe, see me deserving of hell as well?

And also, while we're being so honest with Elphaba here, do you also see me as the nag of the group? I'd appreciate an honest answer, and I know you'd give me one.

To answer the first part of your question, I have to say that I believe all of God's creation, myself included, are deserving of hell, so my answer is yes. As I believe God is perfect and requires sinlessness, this can only be done by being presented as clean, which only comes from a true belief in Jesus not "doing the best I could."

In my interactions with you, Elphaba, I have not experienced you as a nag. I probably would have let you know.

Thank you Dr. T. I appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions honestly and for not running away from my questions under the guise that I would not have been interested in your answers, which would not have been true (which is what John did.)

In fact, I'd still be interested in your answers, but I'm afraid it will have to wait until tomorrow.

I bid you goodnight.

Elphaba

[Dr T]

Good night to you Elph. :)

[john doe]

<div class='quotemain'>

Hello Elph,

Thank you Dr.T. So do you, like John Doe, see me deserving of hell as well?

And also, while we're being so honest with Elphaba here, do you also see me as the nag of the group? I'd appreciate an honest answer, and I know you'd give me one.

To answer the first part of your question, I have to say that I believe all of God's creation, myself included, are deserving of hell, so my answer is yes. As I believe God is perfect and requires sinlessness, this can only be done by being presented as clean, which only comes from a true belief in Jesus not "doing the best I could."

In my interactions with you, Elphaba, I have not experienced you as a nag. I probably would have let you know.

Thank you Dr. T. I appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions honestly and for not running away from my questions under the guise that I would not have been interested in your answers, which would not have been true (which is what John did.)

In fact, I'd still be interested in your answers, but I'm afraid it will have to wait until tomorrow.

I bid you goodnight.

Elphaba

I'm not running. I think I explained my feelings. I just won't discuss things very long with someone uninterested in discussion.

[StrawberryFields]

Sorry Elphaba,

I support much of what you say and your right to say it but this is not the first person I have heard said that you do not take the opportunity to listen and evaluate another persons view. If we are to learn and grow we need to be willing to have an open mind to many things. A good friend of mine has a quote I think works here.

Minds are like parachutes-they only function when they are open.

I know you want to be heard but so do others. I think that if you will take the opportunity to learn from some of these people here your life will be blessed. Just my opinion.

[Elphaba]

I support much of what you say and your right to say it but this is not the first person I have heard said that you do not take the opportunity to listen and evaluate another persons view. If we are to learn and grow we need to be willing to have an open mind to many things. A good friend of mine has a quote I think works here.

I know you want to be heard but so do others. I think that if you will take the opportunity to learn from some of these people here your life will be blessed. Just my opinion.

Strawberry, would you do me a favor and point out in this thread exactly where I did not listen or evaluate John's view? Obviously I did because I asked him to clarify them and I also responded to them. Just because I didn't agree with them does not mean I did not listen to them.

Additionally, would you please point out to me where John took the opportunity to listen or evaluate my point of view? Why is it I who must listen and evaluate, but these phantom "others" (whom I think we both know who they are), are not responsible to do likewise?

Actually, I suppose John did listen and evaluate, as he told me I was going to hell and was going to like it there.

John's claim that "You don’t want to even attempt to see things from my perspective." is pure ad hominem, as John needed an excuse to justify his need to get out of the conversation. Again, not agreeing with his perspective does not mean that I did not listen to his perspective. But because he was not able to convert me, he had to attack me personally.

Additionally, his accusation that“ You always get so upset when you think you are being attacked,” is another ad hominen comment in an attempt to create an erroneous image of me that is just not true. Rather, I think I maintain a very cool head, and I rarely think I’m being attacked. I certainly did not think I was being attacked this time.

But he couldn't simply say "I'd like to bow out of the conversation now." Rather, he had to attack me personally.

And then of course there was the "nag" comment.

To summarize, I did listen and evaluate what John had to say. But I did not agree with him, and there is nothing wrong with that. I did not get upset with him, nor did I feel like I was being attacked. My questions were apt and to the point. And since he had chosen to enter the conversation I do not see why it was wrong to ask them of him, and to expect him to treat me with respect in doing so. I do not believe he did this with his comments about me going to hell, and his resorting to ad hominems. I normally would have left it alone and said nothing of it. But since you saw fit to chastise me in public, I think it only fitting to ask the same standard be applied to John, and every other poster I encounter.

Elphaba

[Alaskagain]

Elph,

I am a little puzzled, and maybe you can help clarify.

On the one hand, you say you are not upset, but on the other hand, your posts are giving me the impression that you are deeply offended. I admit that I can easily misinterpret the posts.

So, are you offended?

(Yes or No, please)

Al

[pushka]

Dear dear...the old 'can an agnostic or atheist really be good enough' question comes to mind here.

Personally I think that they can, because despite what all Christians believe, they may be proved wrong some day too...perhaps God, Jesus, Allah or whoever doesn't really exist...is just a set of myths made up in order to get people to conform to whatever standards the composers of the holy books wanted them to conform to.

I see no reason why an agnostic or atheist should be damned to hell by christians...if hell doesn't exist then the atheist/agnostic doesn't have anything to worry about. We can all be happy or unhappy by the choices we make in this life, and how we treat other people. This is as far as I think anyone needs to worry. I find it very difficult to believe in God or heaven and hell these days too. Like Elphie, I've attended churches, been raised in Christianity, so have had the opportunities to listen to the 'other side', and have also had an opportunity to form my own beliefs/unbeliefs over the years since...Elphie has definitely listened to the others' arguments on here...she was a mormon! She obviously thought she believed in God/Jesus at one time, now that she no longer believes she obviously thinks differently from the christians here. She need not be afraid of being sent to a hell that she doesn't believe in...neither do I or any other non-believers, but it is no use arguing on the site about one's point of view, because neither is willing to change that pov unless something happens in their life that makes them reconsider.

Please end this debate...allow Elphie, me and other non-believers..or doubters carry on with our own beliefs, we don't wish any harm on anybody who is a christian or who follows any other religion, we do intend to help anybody and treat others as we would like to be treated ourselves...not just because one religious figure or another has told us that is how we should act, but just because that is a more pleasant way to get along in life. One day all will be revealed...