The Golden Rule

[Elphaba]

Elph,

I am a little puzzled, and maybe you can help clarify.

On the one hand, you say you are not upset, but on the other hand, your posts are giving me the impression that you are deeply offended. I admit that I can easily misinterpret the posts.

So, are you offended?

(Yes or No, please)

Al

Generally, no. I'm rarely offended. I am an assertive poster, and don't couch my posts in lots of niceties, and perhaps that's giving people the impression I am offended. I also challenge people's statements often if I see they have written something as a fact which I know to not be true. I think perhaps people think I'm upset when I find misstatements because when I correct them I am very matter of fact, but that's just my writing style.

I think people mistake my assertiveness for a lack of interest in their perspective, and it's not. I am very intereseted in what people have to say.

When you say my posts are giving you the impression that I am deeply offended, would you mind telling me what you mean? Obviously I am missing something and would like to know what that is.

I also realize this post is confusing in that I am upset. I am upset that Strawberry saw fit to publicly say what she did. But then, I am open to hearing "how" people think I am not open to hearing what they have to say, and if it is true, I would be glad to work on that, as I am committed to respecting the posters I interact with.

Also, if you're referring to my post about the my experience with the patriarch, I see that as an exception to the rule. I believe that's the first time I've brought up something that traumatic, and I don't plan on doing it again. It really was just to explain an incident in my life that had happened and had been traumatizing, but I didn't mean for it to sound like it was traumatizing to me today, because it's not. Somehow it came out that way.

I hope that answers your question. If not, let me know and I'll try to do better.

Elphaba

Dear dear...the old 'can an agnostic or atheist really be good enough' question comes to mind here.

Personally I think that they can, because despite what all Christians believe, they may be proved wrong some day too...perhaps God, Jesus, Allah or whoever doesn't really exist...is just a set of myths made up in order to get people to conform to whatever standards the composers of the holy books wanted them to conform to.

I see no reason why an agnostic or atheist should be damned to hell by christians...if hell doesn't exist then the atheist/agnostic doesn't have anything to worry about. We can all be happy or unhappy by the choices we make in this life, and how we treat other people. This is as far as I think anyone needs to worry. I find it very difficult to believe in God or heaven and hell these days too. Like Elphie, I've attended churches, been raised in Christianity, so have had the opportunities to listen to the 'other side', and have also had an opportunity to form my own beliefs/unbeliefs over the years since...Elphie has definitely listened to the others' arguments on here...she was a mormon! She obviously thought she believed in God/Jesus at one time, now that she no longer believes she obviously thinks differently from the christians here. She need not be afraid of being sent to a hell that she doesn't believe in...neither do I or any other non-believers, but it is no use arguing on the site about one's point of view, because neither is willing to change that pov unless something happens in their life that makes them reconsider.

Please end this debate...allow Elphie, me and other non-believers..or doubters carry on with our own beliefs, we don't wish any harm on anybody who is a christian or who follows any other religion, we do intend to help anybody and treat others as we would like to be treated ourselves...not just because one religious figure or another has told us that is how we should act, but just because that is a more pleasant way to get along in life. One day all will be revealed...

Thank you Pushka. That is a very good description of my journey to my unbelief. Like I said, I didn't suddenly one day decide to not believe in God.

I just want to clarify that I started the debate with my questions, so it's my fault the debate began. And if anyone still wants to talk with me about it, I'm more than willing. But please don't feel offended or that I'm not listening if I don't agree with you. I am interested in what you have to say, and I would hope you would likewise be interested in what I have to say, and make an effort to understand why I believe what I do.

If not, that's okay as well.

Elphaba

[pushka]

Hi Elphie,

I realise what you mean, that you started the debate with your questions, however those questions were valid, they were going around my head at the time I read the beginning of this thread too...due to my own stance and that of my many non-believer friends.

I just think that it is sometimes pointless carrying on arguing the points when it is obvious that neither is going to change their point of view, and possible contention is going to creep in...btw, I'm not accusing anyone of being contentious with that comment!!

[Alaskagain]

Exactly why I am confused:

. . .

Actually, I suppose John did listen and evaluate, as he told me I was going to hell and was going to like it there.

John's claim that "You don’t want to even attempt to see things from my perspective." is pure ad hominem, as John needed an excuse to justify his need to get out of the conversation. Again, not agreeing with his perspective does not mean that I did not listen to his perspective. But because he was not able to convert me, he had to attack me personally.

Additionally, his accusation that“ You always get so upset when you think you are being attacked,” is another ad hominen comment in an attempt to create an erroneous image of me that is just not true. Rather, I think I maintain a very cool head, and I rarely think I’m being attacked. I certainly did not think I was being attacked this time.

But he couldn't simply say "I'd like to bow out of the conversation now." Rather, he had to attack me personally.

And then of course there was the "nag" comment.

. . . But I did not agree with him, and there is nothing wrong with that. I did not get upset with him, nor did I feel like I was being attacked.

. . . and to expect him to treat me with respect in doing so. I do not believe he did this with his comments about me going to hell,

(Good thing I didn't ask for a long answer) .

edited formatting

[Elphaba]

Exactly why I am confused:

Then let me clarify for you. You asked me if I was offended. I said no, I am not. I thought you meant generally, and so I answered in generalities. If you had meant specifically about this incident, then obviously you should have asked about this incident.

I wrote all of the sections you highlighted as a counterargument to Strawberry's comments that I was not listening to John. I did this to demonstrate that John had behaved in a similar manner. It was not because I was offended by them.

(Good thing I didn't ask for a long answer) .

Sorry. This is not a court of law, and you're not a lawyer interrogating me.

There's no need to play games. Just say what you want to say. If you see where I really have been disrespectful then I'd like to know about it.

Elphaba

[Elphaba]

I owe John an apology.

I see where I did write the following in a thread to Dr. T:

". . . for not running away from my questions under the guise that I would not have been interested in your answers, which would not have been true (which is what John did.)"

This was rude and inappropriate on my part.

I do stand by my comments that I was interested and listening to what John had to say, and I do believe he did not reciprocate.

Nevertheless, there was no reason for me to write what I did about him on the open board, especially since I have been complaining about the very same thing.

Johh, I am sorry.

Elphaba

[Alaskagain]

Then let me clarify for you. You asked me if I was offended. I said no, I am not. I thought you meant generally, and so I answered in generalities. If you had meant specifically about this incident, then obviously you should have asked about this incident.

. . .

There's no need to play games. Just say what you want to say. If you see where I really have been disrespectful then I'd like to know about it.

No, I wasn't talking about this thread. I wondered if you were offended by the amount of money spent on the space shuttle program in general. What a convoluted response. THAT is a really good example of being disrepectful of the intelligence level of everyone here.

You seem really angry with JD because he said you were going to go to hell if you did not acknowledge the Master. Seems to me Yediyd was the first poster who said that you would not get into Heaven if you did not believe in and have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Doesn't that mean the same thing?

In addition, you seem really angry that JD wrote that not only would you go to hell, but that you would actually like it there. Have you looked at some of the posts in other threads considering the eternities by Traveler, CK, and others who discuss the possibility that we all end up where we want to be the most, and where we have prepared to go? If you don't acknowledge Jesus, and you don't want to acknowledge Jesus, and you don't acknowledge Jesus in the future, then why would you want to exist with others who do acknowledge Him? They would drive you nuts. "Oh, dear, why don't you believe? He's standing right in front of you!", all day long. 24/7. Can you imagine that? You would be begging," PULLEASE get me OUT of HERE. NOW!. "You will want to exist with others who don't acknowledge Him, and you will be comfortable around them, because you will have a lot in common with them. That doesn't mean we think you are an evil person. That doesn't mean JD wishes that existence for you. He probably would love it if you turned right around and got on your knees and said a prayer to God that you don't believe in and immediately had a visit by a Heavenly Messenger to tell you,"Yes, Elphie, there is a God, and there is a Jesus. You can believe now." If I am wrong, he can correct me on this.

In addition, you seem angry that JD said you were a nag. Actually, that's not what he said. He said he ONCE considered you to be a nag. He doesn't feel that way any more. He changed his feeling. Now, he pities you.

And finally, you seem to be very angry that Berry "chastised" you in public. I think she was seeing the same high emotion run through here that I sensed, and was trying to calm it down. If I'm wrong, she can correct me on that, I really don't like speaking for other people. (sorry JD and SF)

I'm sure you will have a lengthy response to this. I humbly await your fire.

edit to add:

PS And just how do you know I'm not an attorney? Do you have people following me?

[StrawberryFields]

And finally, you seem to be very angry that Berry "chastised" you in public. I think she was seeing the same high emotion run through here that I sensed, and was trying to calm it down. If I'm wrong, she can correct me on that, I really don't like speaking for other people. (sorry JD and SF)

I'm sure you will have a lengthy response to this. I humbly await your fire.

You have read me right Alaskagain. :)

To Elp,

Watch your back j/k haha

[Elphaba]

PS And just how do you know I'm not an attorney? Do you have people following me?

No, it's not necessary.

Elphaba

[Guest Yediyd]

Ok...just took the time to read this whole thread and here are my thoughts...(fwiw)...

El, you know I am saying these things in love and have no desire to chastise you, and Pushka, that goes for you too...As Dr. T said...every knee shall bow and acknowledge him as lord (Jesus)...This is a fact not to be debated...if you don't believe that...fine, won't change the fact, but you have a right not to acknowledge that truth right now. If I am wrong...nothing happens, we all die and become food for worms...but if I am right, well, this is where I fear for you, my dears...EL, and Pushka...because if you don't except him now...what makes you think you will except him later? We take our personalities with us to the other side...and Jesus himself could come up to you, but If you choose not to believe he is G-d, what makes you think you will then? There will be a final judgement and even the devils will eventually acknowledge him...but in the mean time...he loves you so much that he is giving you all the chances that he can to convince you to bow to him NOW and receive a reward for your faith...which is the trust in something that you cannot see of feel.

I just taught a lesson to my sunday school kids today about Jesus...he raised Lazerous from the dead, and even with that, many did not believe, even after he (Lazarus) had been dead 4 days and stunk..he was raised from the dead and some still chose not to believe. Even if Jesus comes right up to you...you may still choose not to believe that he is Lord as these Jews of old had the evidence right in front of them, yet still chose not to believe.

I also taught the kids about the story of the rich man in Hell and Lazerous. I do not believe that was a parable that Jesus told, because whenever Jesus told a parable...he never mentions names...but in this story, he does mention names...and you will notice that the only name that he mentions is the one that he knows...Lazerous was known of Jesus, the rich man was not.

Someday, Jesus will say to those who choose not to acknowledge him...I never knew you, depart from me into everlasting fire, I'm not sure how to interpret that verse as I believe that all of us who chose the right will end up in some degree of glory, however....the rich man was one of us who chose the right in the premortal existence and he ended up in a literal burning Hell...he ask Lazerous to dip his finger in water to quench his thirst...but Lazerous could not because there was a great gulf between him and the rich man...so, I still have my own issues with Hell...whether it is literal or not...but I DO believe that Hell is REGRET...and that regret can be pretty awful when you realize that you are in your present state FOREVER, with no chance to change you mind.

Jesus said: TODAY is the day to repent...tomorrow will be too late.

I know!!! Long post...sorry!!! I know you struggled with this El, and you didn't come to this decision lightly, this is what you truly believe and you know that I am truly sorry for you!! I pray for you because I am burdened for you. I don't expect you to agree with me or except what I have to say...but these are my beliefs and my thoughts on this topic.

[Alaskagain]

No, it's not necessary.

Elphaba

[Elphaba]

Ok...just took the time to read this whole thread and here are my thoughts...(fwiw)...

El, you know I am saying these things in love and have no desire to chastise you, and Pushka, that goes for you too...

I know you are sweetie. You know I love you too.

. . . because if you don't except him now...what makes you think you will except him later? We take our personalities with us to the other side...and Jesus himself could come up to you, but If you choose not to believe he is G-d, what makes you think you will then?

See, this is what makes absolutely no sense to me.

The reason I do not believe is because I see absolutely no evidence that Jesus exists. So, if Jesus himself walked up to me, then I would have my evidence. So then of course i would accept him then. It's only logical.

Yet when I say that, for some reason I am being labeled as angry or not looking at someone else's perspective, and I really do not understand that. I am looking at it from your perspective, because it's what you just wrote. Yes?

There will be a final judgement and even the devils will eventually acknowledge him...but in the mean time...he loves you so much that he is giving you all the chances that he can to convince you to bow to him NOW and receive a reward for your faith...which is the trust in something that you cannot see of feel.

I have discussed this with you before, and you know I'm not going to bring it to the board. I understand how strong your faith is, and I am glad for you. I just don't agree with you, and I think that is okay.

Even if Jesus comes right up to you...you may still choose not to believe that he is Lord as these Jews of old had the evidence right in front of them, yet still chose not to believe.

There's a big difference. Those Jews had did not grow up learning about Jesus. They had no idea who he was. I do. So obviously if Jesus were to come right up to me I would know he was real and therefore would not need to make a choice to believe. I would have my evidence that he is real, and would therefore be able to believe.

Someday, Jesus will say to those who choose not to acknowledge him...I never knew you, depart from me into everlasting fire, I'm not sure how to interpret that verse as I believe that all of us who chose the right will end up in some degree of glory, however....the rich man was one of us who chose the right in the premortal existence and he ended up in a literal burning Hell...he ask Lazerous to dip his finger in water to quench his thirst...but Lazerous could not because there was a great gulf between him and the rich man...so, I still have my own issues with Hell...whether it is literal or not...but I DO believe that Hell is REGRET...and that regret can be pretty awful when you realize that you are in your present state FOREVER, with no chance to change you mind.

As you know, I just cannot imagine a God that would expect someone to believe in something they simply do not believe in, and then punish him/her in such a manner because he/she couldn't do it. That's just barbaric to me. I do agree, however, that hell, if there is one, is probably regret. I think that's what hell on earth is.

I know!!! Long post...sorry!!! I know you struggled with this El, and you didn't come to this decision lightly, this is what you truly believe and you know that I am truly sorry for you!! I pray for you because I am burdened for you. I don't expect you to agree with me or except what I have to say...but these are my beliefs and my thoughts on this topic.

Oh honey, I am sorry this burdens you, I really am. I wish I could tell you not to be, but I know you, and I know it wouldn't help.

As far as your beliefs, you KNOW how strongly I feel about them, and you. I would be horrified if you were to lose your beliefs, and I am comforted knowing you have them.

Elphie

[pam]

[

The reason I do not believe is because I see absolutely no evidence that Jesus exists. So, if Jesus himself walked up to me, then I would have my evidence. So then of course i would accept him then. It's only logical.

That's where faith has to come in and override logic. If I had to have tangible evidence for everything in my life...I'm afraid of where I would be.

[Palerider]

[

The reason I do not believe is because I see absolutely no evidence that Jesus exists. So, if Jesus himself walked up to me, then I would have my evidence. So then of course i would accept him then. It's only logical.

That's where faith has to come in and override logic. If I had to have tangible evidence for everything in my life...I'm afraid of where I would be.

not sure that would make a difference....the last people Christ told them he was Jesus crucified him.....some of the people who seen the Plates of gold fell away......I fail to see where you would accept him....

[pam]

[

The reason I do not believe is because I see absolutely no evidence that Jesus exists. So, if Jesus himself walked up to me, then I would have my evidence. So then of course i would accept him then. It's only logical.

That's where faith has to come in and override logic. If I had to have tangible evidence for everything in my life...I'm afraid of where I would be.

not sure that would make a difference....the last people Christ told them he was Jesus crucified him.....some of the people who seen the Plates of gold fell away......I fail to see where you would accept him....

Good point Pale

[Palerider]

thank you

[Guest Yediyd]

The reason I do not believe is because I see absolutely no evidence that Jesus exists. So, if Jesus himself walked up to me, then I would have my evidence. So then of course i would accept him then. It's only logical.

This is where I fear for you...you may want to acknowledge him then, but it may be too late...he wants us to trust him...to have faith...this is a hard thing for you, I know...but this is what Jesus requires of us...if you wait for proof...well, Jesus said that an evil and adulteress nation seeketh after a sign...He wants us to trust him and except him NOW...you may not get the chance to change your mind later.

There's a big difference. Those Jews had did not grow up learning about Jesus. They had no idea who he was. I do. So obviously if Jesus were to come right up to me I would know he was real and therefore would not need to make a choice to believe. I would have my evidence that he is real, and would therefore be able to believe.

Again...see above..

I do agree, however, that hell, if there is one, is probably regret. I think that's what hell on earth is.

Now here is something we DO agree on!!! I believe that Hell can and is here on Earth as well as in the here after...my mother has already entered her Hell...I see it in her eyes every time I look at her...she is living in her Hell of regret, now...she will be 70 next week...and she is just waiting to die...she has no joy in life at all. It is so sad, she made a lot of mistakes in her life...most of her bad choices involved the wrong men and her children, now she sees the fruit of those bad choices...Of the 11 kids that she gave birth to...4 are dead, 4 have been to prison, 1 still IS in prison...3 have been in mental hospitals...1 still IS in a mental hospital...and don't even get me STARTED on the grandchildren!!!!![/quote]Oh honey, I am sorry this burdens you, I really am. I wish I could tell you not to be, but I know you, and I know it wouldn't help

...again...you are right...it won't help, It is because I believe so strongly that I am burdened for you...what kind of friend would I be if I wasn't?

[Elphaba]

not sure that would make a difference....the last people Christ told them he was JesusWh crucified him.....some of the people who seen the Plates of gold fell away......I fail to see where you would accept him....

Not everyone whom he told he was Jesus crucified him. And not everyone who were told of the plates fell away. So, why me?

And lest anyone misunderstand this for anger, it is not. It is genuine curiosity.

Elphaba

[Guest Yediyd]

<div class='quotemain'>not sure that would make a difference....the last people Christ told them he was JesusWh crucified him.....some of the people who seen the Plates of gold fell away......I fail to see where you would accept him....

Not everyone whom he told he was Jesus crucified him. And not everyone who were told of the plates fell away. So, why me?

And lest anyone misunderstand this for anger, it is not. It is genuine curiosity.

Elphaba

Why not you?

[pam]

Elphaba you mentioned that if Jesus walked up to you..you would have your evidence. What Pale was trying to say is...that there were those who saw Christ and still crucified. Not that EVERYONE did. His point was that even with that tangible evidence doesn't mean you would accept. Not sure at that point what it would take for you.

[Guest Yediyd]

WOW! All this discussion over one little quote I put up here!!! Didn't mean to ruffle any feathers!!! I just liked the quote and thought it was appropriate!!!!

[pam]

Yediyd there was nothing wrong with your quote.

[Guest Yediyd]

Yediyd there was nothing wrong with your quote.

I know...I am just surprised at the reaction it brought!!! Not my intention....

[Elphaba]

Elphaba you mentioned that if Jesus walked up to you..you would have your evidence. What Pale was trying to say is...that there were those who saw Christ and still crucified. Not that EVERYONE did. His point was that even with that tangible evidence doesn't mean you would accept. Not sure at that point what it would take for you.

Hi Pam,

I do think it would be different for me. The Jews that crucified Christ hadn't spent their lives learning about him and searching for him. I have. So if he did appear before me, I do think I would accept Him.

Thanks for putting it together for me. :)

Elphaba

[Alaskagain]

WOW! All this discussion over one little quote I put up here!!! Didn't mean to ruffle any feathers!!! I just liked the quote and thought it was appropriate!!!!

Yed, it was perfectly appropriate.

[pam]

<div class='quotemain'>Elphaba you mentioned that if Jesus walked up to you..you would have your evidence. What Pale was trying to say is...that there were those who saw Christ and still crucified. Not that EVERYONE did. His point was that even with that tangible evidence doesn't mean you would accept. Not sure at that point what it would take for you.

Hi Pam,

I do think it would be different for me. The Jews that crucified Christ hadn't spent their lives learning about him and searching for him. I have. So if he did appear before me, I do think I would accept Him.

Thanks for putting it together for me. :)

Elphaba

Help me to understand here. Is it that you don't believe Christ existed at all...or that he is our Savior and the Son of God?